DS canon makes no mention of any relationship between the ancient rhulisti life shapers and the origin of the zik-chil.
The recent Life Shaping Handbook has retconned this:
Life Shaping Handbook p5 wrote:
Disagree.
Retconninginvolves a "deliberate changing of previously established facts in a work of serial fiction."
You concede that:
DS canon makes no mention of any relationship between the ancient rhulisti life shapers and the origin of the zik-chil.
Therefore it is foolish to call this explanation a "retcon."
I'm interested in what fans think about this proposed history, whether positive or negative, but you, sir, are clearly not thinking. And when you frame a "poll" question with foolish and innacurate premises, you've created a null question. And the only educated answer to a null question is "Mu."
Either way, folks have a right to make a clear and uncluttered vote on the subject if they want.
Unless of course you wanna just derail that process and deny them their right to criticise athas.org' work...
folks have a right to make a clear and uncluttered vote on the subject if they want.
I agree. And your false presentation of the issues stands in the way of that right.
I agree. And your false presentation of the issues stands in the way of that right.
Split hairs to obscure the issue all you want. Folks can plainly state if they agree or disagree with athas.org's recent take on the zik-chil. That's what I'm saying here.
I wholehearty AGREE.
I feel that the Zik-chil are pretty kool and deserve their own story. The Kreen, and especially the Xik-chil, are so alien that making them transformed Rhulisti downplays that "mystique." At least in my opinion.
Also the description under Zik-chil as presented in the New Life-shaping Handbook (Which is an awesome piece of work!) doesn't really make sense to me. Why would the Nature Masters turn the Nature Benders into Kreen but allow them to keep their Life Shaping powers? Why wouldn't they just execute them?
At the very least simply keep the true origin on the Zik-chil shrouded in mystery....
AZAZEL
I have to disagree for personal reasons this time.
I feel that the Zik-chil are pretty kool and deserve their own story. The Kreen, and especially the Xik-chil, are so alien that making them transformed Rhulisti downplays that "mystique." At least in my opinion.
Bear in mind, the Xik-Chil and the Zik-Chil were creatures from two different campaign settings. I get the idea you want to combine the two, and I can understand that. But as a result... doesn't that downplay the "mystique" of the Zik-Chil as much as linking them to the Rhulisti (which are known to be the progenitor race for most of the races on Athas)?
Also the description under Zik-chil as presented in the New Life-shaping Handbook (Which is an awesome piece of work!) doesn't really make sense to me. Why would the Nature Masters turn the Nature Benders into Kreen but allow them to keep their Life Shaping powers? Why wouldn't they just execute them?
Ok, I'll have to say I've not looked at the life-shaping handbook. But I'm getting the impression that all of this discussion is tied to that release. Guess I'll have to look at it more. Once again though, I'd say that even the story for a particular item, and any kind of historical record reaching back through the ages of Athas is subjective, highly subjective at best.
At the very least simply keep the true origin on the Zik-chil shrouded in mystery....
I can see that as well. But I see the Athasian history as shrouded in mystery in general. Anything anyone "knows" about the history of Athas is in doubt, in my book. The common people are not educated, and their lives are filled with much myth and superstition. The nobility are taught whatever the Templars and Sorcerer-Kings have revised to the history typically to bolster the SK. The Sorcerer-Kings (and other long-lived creatures, like the Mind Lords) have the effects of time on their memories -- things get murky after a while, and precision in specific memories becomes doubtful, they would more than likely remember key situations and events, but even then, it would be colored by their own minds, making them unreliable. The Pyreen would potentially have a good general idea on history, with the Spirits of the Land potentially providing a particular brand of history to them (and Druids on the whole), but it would be colored by the experiences of the respective Spirits. Rajaat's madness would radically change his personal take on history. The Rhul-Thaun may have an idea of history, but it is a bit imperfect, especially as they've been so isolated from everything, and have spent more time going through the motions of Rhulisti society rather than actually truly comprehending it any more. The Kreen's genetic memory seems to be fuzzy the further back it goes, it does a bit better than the SK's or Mind Lords, but over time it does appear to be something brought in doubt.
Basically, every possible historical record or tradition is subjective on Athas. There really is no written account of what all has happened, it is all hearsay filled with myth and legend, everything would potentially have contradictions and conflicts with other historical accounts. The accounts for history would be more reliable the closer it is to the modern day, but the further back you go, the less reliable it is.
Bear in mind, the Xik-Chil and the Zik-Chil were creatures from two different campaign settings. I get the idea you want to combine the two, and I can understand that. But as a result... doesn't that downplay the "mystique" of the Zik-Chil as much as linking them to the Rhulisti (which are known to be the progenitor race for most of the races on Athas)?
Whoops! That "Xik-chil" was actually a spelling error on my part! The two buttons are side by side after all!
Sorry about that!I can see that as well. But I see the Athasian history as shrouded in mystery in general. Anything anyone "knows" about the history of Athas is in doubt, in my book. The common people are not educated, and their lives are filled with much myth and superstition. The nobility are taught whatever the Templars and Sorcerer-Kings have revised to the history typically to bolster the SK. The Sorcerer-Kings (and other long-lived creatures, like the Mind Lords) have the effects of time on their memories -- things get murky after a while, and precision in specific memories becomes doubtful, they would more than likely remember key situations and events, but even then, it would be colored by their own minds, making them unreliable. The Pyreen would potentially have a good general idea on history, with the Spirits of the Land potentially providing a particular brand of history to them (and Druids on the whole), but it would be colored by the experiences of the respective Spirits. Rajaat's madness would radically change his personal take on history. The Rhul-Thaun may have an idea of history, but it is a bit imperfect, especially as they've been so isolated from everything, and have spent more time going through the motions of Rhulisti society rather than actually truly comprehending it any more. The Kreen's genetic memory seems to be fuzzy the further back it goes, it does a bit better than the SK's or Mind Lords, but over time it does appear to be something brought in doubt.
Basically, every possible historical record or tradition is subjective on Athas. There really is no written account of what all has happened, it is all hearsay filled with myth and legend, everything would potentially have contradictions and conflicts with other historical accounts. The accounts for history would be more reliable the closer it is to the modern day, but the further back you go, the less reliable it is.
Can't really argue with this! Excellent post!
AZAZEL
I disagree with it, but I can respect that the folks involved are trying to add more depth to the setting. In my campaign those facts will be altered to fit my view of Athas, just as many people here like to change or ignore various bits of the existing canon for their campaigns.
Mind you, they aren't "facts", they are very subjective, like anything else in Athas' history. Especially the distant history like the Blue Age/early Green Age...
It always seemed to me that one of the most distinctive and important components of the Kreen is that their origin and evolution were completely seperate from all of the Rhulisti and Rebirth races. Supplanting the idea of their own, independent "priests of change" just seems to kind of......taint that alien appeal.
Where in the official sources does it actually say, or even suggest, that the zic-chil are a type of kreen?
Seems a lot more likely to me that the Kreen and the Trin share a Blue Age common ancestor.
I don't know, maybe I'm just reading into it too much, maybe my memories are a bit fuzzy on it all right now. But considering the rather precise nature of Kreen thinking, the rather precise nature of Kreen kanguage, I'd say that there is probably a precision found in the distinction made between the subspecies of the Tohr-Kreen/Thri-Kreen, and the Zik-Chil.
I have to disagree for personal reasons this time.
I feel that the Zik-chil are pretty kool and deserve their own story. The Kreen, and especially the Xik-chil, are so alien that making them transformed Rhulisti downplays that "mystique." At least in my opinion.
Also the description under Zik-chil as presented in the New Life-shaping Handbook (Which is an awesome piece of work!) doesn't really make sense to me. Why would the Nature Masters turn the Nature Benders into Kreen
ZCs aren't kreen.
but allow them to keep their Life Shaping powers?
The Nature Benders didn't have "life shaping powers;" they knew how to use nature bending technologies, as described above.
Why wouldn't they just execute them?
They probably did execute some. Why not all of them? Politics. Same the Allies left so many Nazi and Emperial Japanese folks in power after WWII. Same reason that the USA never executed Geronimo and let him live out his life as a quasi-celebrity despite the plentiful deaths, rapes, and chaos that he caused. After a war, the peace is often fragile. You want to seem generous, and too many executions can fracture the peace.
I've somewhat assumed that the way the Kreen word things, by defining themselves as "Kreen" (or "the People"), as opposed to "Trin" (which is something like animal if memory serves) is an important quality. Tohr-Kreen vs Thri-Kreen are "civilized people" vs "nomadic people", I remember, while I'd almost say that Thri-Trin are "nomadic animals" or "wild animals" rather. The fact that the Zik-Chil have a completely different name, to me, signifies something. They seem to be set aside, separate from the Kreen. They are distinctly not claimed as Kreen, not as the People, but as the Priests of Change.
I completely agree that this is significant. IIRC, don't they even speak of humans as "dra kreen" or something like that, signifying their recognition of personhood?
At the very least simply keep the true origin on the Zik-chil shrouded in mystery....
Where there's mystery, there's going to be speculation. If the passage was framed as Oronis' speculation, would that change your response?
I completely agree that this is significant. IIRC, don't they even speak of humans as "dra kreen" or something like that, signifying their recognition of personhood?
I don't remember exactly, but I believe the Kreen have always questioned whether or not the other races were sentient, and I'm not entirely certain if they used the term Kreen for them, but rather Dra had some significance as something like "talking monkey" or "talking being" or some such.
I agree. I don't feel that it changes cannon at all and it provides the easiest answer to some holes in the DS lore. I don't know that I feel it should be a punishment, I'd probably go with a few Nature-Benders who augmented themselves to hide among the kreen or some such. Either way, If you don't like it - change it. It's your campaign at home.
Yeah, not particularly warmed up to the idea of it being punishment. I think exile would have been punishment enough. Especially since I think that the whole nature-bender and nature-master dispute was one of ideological origins, and the nature-master ideology ended up winning. If they won the war or whatever, and the nature-benders were sent into exile, away from their families, friends, homes, lives, sent to live out among the wildlife apart from Rhulisti society, shunned forever, and then the Jagged Cliffs were raised to further signify this segregation, then the nature-benders (or whatever they called themselves, what if they called themselves simply "life-crafters" or something?) are left to fend for themselves, taking their "accursed nature-bending" crafts away from polluting the purity of Rhulisti society and the nature-masters' ways.
Years later, the nature-masters make a fatal mistake, producing the Brown Tide. They then build the Pristine Tower, and start the chain of events leading to the Green Age. The nature-benders have learned to survive in the wilds, and find a race of insectoids, large mantis creatures with a lot of potential. They begin manipulating and making changes to the mantis-creatures, accelerating their "evolutionary" development, the mantis-creatures become sentient, develop a language, and are very barbaric. The nature-benders remain in the shadows, observing their little science experiments. As the Green Age begins, and the oceans drain, the nature-benders come to admire the insect-men for the speed which they can pass knowledge onto successive generations, which results in a very rapid development of the culture of the early Kreen.
The nature-benders want to be able to use this rapid teaching ability, the genetic memory that the Kreen have, and also desire to be able to be accepted into this society, for whatever reason -- to guide the Kreen's development, observe scientifically, or freely be able to make changes to their physiology as they need, whatever. The nature-bender Rhulisti develop the process to transform themselves into more effective forms, becoming the early Zik-Chil...
Once again, as a thought. And it doesn't imply any kind of "prison sentence" or punishment being forced to transform them into Zik-Chil, but a willing transformation they had, while still being exiled from Rhulisti society. Over time, these Zik-Chil begin to forget who or what they really were, maybe their implementation of the genetic memory wasn't perfect. Maybe they made a mistake, and over the generations they forgot a lot about things. The resentment for being exiled becomes a drive to return to the Tablelands, which in turn is impressed upon the Kreen, making the Tohr-Kreen empire become increasingly expansionistic. The more refined and scientific "nature-bending" life-shaping becomes faded, and slowly transforms into the processes the Zik-Chil now use. Maybe the Zik-Chil become simply an extension of the Tohr-Kreen Empire itself, no longer in a superior role, but now in a subservient role...
Thri-Kreen of Athas, p. 4 -
Chapter Five describes special social structures of the thrikreen:
the hunting pack; the rarer raiding pack; and several
unusual packs. The focus then shifts to the mysterious lands of
the far north, and the related races: the six settled tohr-kreen
species (Jeral, J'ez, J'hol, To'ksa, Tondi, Tkeech), the savage trin,
and the cold and manipulative zik-chil.
Zik-Chil seems to be a subspecies name, like Jeraj, Jez,Jhol,Tondi, Toksa, and Tkeech.
p. 7 - Glossary, Kreen Words
Zik-Chil - "priest-of-change;" pale tohr-kreen, cold and
manipulative, creators of zik-trin, revered and
feared by the tohr-kreen
This statement says it in plain language
Notice how there are six settled tohr-kreen species, which then are kept distinctly separate from the "savage trin", and then the "cold and manipulative" zik-chil. Once again, a distinction separating them. Otherwise, if they were just another subspecies name, it would have been listed with the other subspecies, right?
The point is, you're making some assumptions about what is written there. Nothing about what you posted in any way is a 100% guarantee that what I've written and suggested is wrong. Like has been stated (by myself and others) -- the world has a very subjective history, based on the viewpoints of the people who are telling the history.
The use of the term "plae tohr-kreen" could very easily be to help describe the general appearance of the Zik-Chil. Especially when in the same sentence it says they are "revered and feared by the tohr-kreen" -- once again, making them a bit separate, and distinct.
Yeah, not particularly warmed up to the idea of it being punishment. I think exile would have been punishment enough.
It's not about punishment. The transformation as described was exile precisely.
Especially since I think that the whole nature-bender and nature-master dispute was one of ideological origins, and the nature-master ideology ended up winning. If they won the war or whatever, and the nature-benders were sent into exile, away from their families, friends, homes, lives, sent to live out among the wildlife apart from Rhulisti society, shunned forever, and then the Jagged Cliffs were raised to further signify this segregation, then the nature-benders (or whatever they called themselves, what if they called themselves simply "life-crafters" or something?) are left to fend for themselves, taking their "accursed nature-bending" crafts away from polluting the purity of Rhulisti society and the nature-masters' ways.
Sure -- but since the Rhulisti government was not confined to the Jagged Cliffs area, it gets more complicated than that. With a world government, you can't easily "exile" someone from the halfling community, unless you mark them, set them apart from others.
I agree that the kreen genetic memory would have seemed attractive to the ZC.
I step out for a few hours to kick puppies and steal candy from children and you guys get my second poll thread locked, lol... It's almost like someone has brought some bad mojo to this place recently. Can't think who that might be :P
Good to see that you're keeping your baser natures in check here at least. And also good to note some comments the Flipster made in another thread about clarifying the subjective nature of the opening pages of the Life Shaping book. A sidebar would be a sound idea.
And no need to edit the opening post either when it's clarified well enough a few posts further down. So long as folks don't take themselves too seriously, we can give as good as we get. Life just gets dull otherwise
And also good to note some comments the Flipster made in another thread about clarifying the subjective nature of the opening pages of the Life Shaping book. A sidebar would be a sound idea.
That would be my suggestion thanks.
It's not about punishment. The transformation as described was exile precisely.
Sure -- but since the Rhulisti government was not confined to the Jagged Cliffs area, it gets more complicated than that. With a world government, you can't easily "exile" someone from the halfling community, unless you mark them, set them apart from others.
I agree that the kreen genetic memory would have seemed attractive to the ZC.
As I am reading this I am thinking that maybe the NB when turned into Zik-Chil, may have lost much of their ability to nature bend, and only got it back after relearning how to do it to themselves first. This, to me, allows for a "degeneration" of NB while allowing them to retain a fragment of their former power. By the time the got their act together, it was too late to do anything about it.
In other words, the NB weren't allowed to continue their bending, they found a way around their current condition to continue doing so.
And also good to note some comments the Flipster made in another thread about clarifying the subjective nature of the opening pages of the Life Shaping book.
Funny, it gets it when Flip says it, but missed it the first six times that I explained the same damned thing.
ZCs aren't kreen.
Yes they are. It specifically says on page 7 of Thri-Kreen of Athas that they are pale Thor-Kreen. The new Lifeshaping Handbook also says they are Kreen on page 120 and page 121.
They probably did execute some. Why not all of them? Politics. Same the Allies left so many Nazi and Emperial Japanese folks in power after WWII. Same reason that the USA never executed Geronimo and let him live out his life as a quasi-celebrity despite the plentiful deaths, rapes, and chaos that he caused. After a war, the peace is often fragile. You want to seem generous, and too many executions can fracture the peace.
All valid points
I completely agree that this is significant. IIRC, don't they even speak of humans as "dra kreen" or something like that, signifying their recognition of personhood?
They sometimes refer to Humans and Demihumans as "Dra-Trin" but the term is seldom used as "Trin" implies an Insectoid or Mantis nature.
Where there's mystery, there's going to be speculation. If the passage was framed as Oronis' speculation, would that change your response?
I could see this. However I think it would be better if it was stated simply that the true origin of the Zik-chil is unknown. It's not as if it really has any bearing on the current champaign.
AZAZEL
Yes they are. It specifically says on page 7 of Thri-Kreen of Athas that they are pale Thor-Kreen.
Damn. How did I miss that?
However I think it would be better if it was stated simply that the true origin of the Zik-chil is unknown.
That itself would be an objective statement. You don't know who or what might know it. :D And surely some folks would speculate and think that they knew.
It's not as if it really has any bearing on the current champaign.
The current campaign depends on the DM. You never know what a DM is going to make a focus, or what the Players have read, which is why the original Dark Sun sources were so rich on rumors, and why we're going to continue to play on that uncertainty theme.
It might affect the kreen invasion, which according to some rumors, is imminent, is it not?
Now I have an off shot idea on the Zik-chil: They could be something like the human Villichi. A species born of humans, but are not considered to be human. The Zik-chil would, there by, not be called Kreen or Trin out of fear, respect or just to idealize the difference (here I go again...) because if we break down the word we end up with an odd collection of terms:
[INDENT]z’ = large (not in the lexicon, but the TKoA mentions a z'ock'n as being a very big ock'n)
zi = to change; to molt
ik = priest
k = to end; one who ends
zik = to change radically[/INDENT]
I've covered the fact that any word portion beginning with "ch" has something to do with "memory" or "knowledge" in another thread. I guessed (lacking a better term) that "chi' translates to "new knowledge" basically renaissance type thinking. Then we have the "L" indicative of a submissive pairing (i.e. teacher = klik; learner = kil)
Now here's the point, the book says "Zik-chil" translates as “Priest of Change” that translation only covers the multiple translation of the first part of the name, "chil" is said to be the (Tohr-kreen only) word for "knowledge of biochemical science". Like I said just some off-shot idea, that I think I'm making a vocabulary mess of right now
.Lastly I'm not sure who said it but the Kreen word "Dra" translates as "(old) to sleep, sleeper, (new) A mammal person [humanoids] of unspecified gender"
The term for humanoids use to be "Dra-trin" or "Sleeper Near Person" but the "Trin" portions was dropped as it indicated insectoid life.
Oh as for the "Poll": meh, what ever works in your game.
That itself would be an objective statement. You don't know who or what might know it. :D And surely some folks would speculate and think that they knew.
I'm actually quite interested about this "Great Library" in Kurn you spoke of earlier (I'm not sure which thread it's in). I think this is a very compelling idea!
The current campaign depends on the DM. You never know what a DM is going to make a focus, or what the Players have read, which is why the original Dark Sun sources were so rich on rumors, and why we're going to continue to play on that uncertainty theme.
I think to NOT play on the uncertianty theme would be distinctly "Un-Dark Sun."
It might affect the kreen invasion, which according to some rumors, is imminent, is it not?
I would have to say that it is fairly imminent. The Kreen have already built a 500 foot battle wall at the base of the Great Rift. They are also building a structure called "The Stronghold of Doom" on the eastern side of the wall. The Stronghold of Doom is briefly mentioned in the adventure "Taste of Fear" on page 116 of the Thri-Kreen of Athas. At the time the Stronghold was not completely constructed.
It's too bad that Zardnaars thread about the Thri-Kreen Invasion got derailed and closed.
AZAZEL
Funny, it gets it when Flip says it, but missed it the first six times that I explained the same damned thing.
Because he doesn't get all rude and call folks names when they say something he doesn't like. Unlike, y'know, you. And me, for that matter :D.
On the topic of "unreliable sources" and the idea that all accounts of Athasian history are subject to doubt, how does the official timeline fit into this? That doesn't come from any in-game narrator or source - it's something released by the 2e designers, right? Is that to be considered suspect as well? If so, why? Surely the 2e design team can release a document like that as the "final word" on all the various interpretations. Why abandon that approach? Sure let, individual DMs fold adapt it as they see fit (what DM doesn't?), but if the baseline is there, I say recognise it as such and make a note in a sidebar covering other options.
If you pay attention to the 2e materials, you'd find that there are a *lot* of inconsistancies, even the official timeline is inconsistant with things. The standing of Athas.org is rather than making any official ruling ourselves on an inconsistancy, we leave it alone, and let the DMs do it. Which does help propose the notion that things are subjective on Athas.
The official "Timeline" is a rough sketch, still unreliable and not completely trustworthy.
If you pay attention to the 2e materials, you'd find that there are a *lot* of inconsistancies, even the official timeline is inconsistant with things. The standing of Athas.org is rather than making any official ruling ourselves on an inconsistancy, we leave it alone, and let the DMs do it. Which does help propose the notion that things are subjective on Athas.
OK, fair enough dude. I do think I read something like that in your faq or something. Maybe it needs to be called out in products more often. But cool - if that's your tack, then I can deal.
Where there's mystery, there's going to be speculation. If the passage was framed as Oronis' speculation, would that change your response?
Or, in addition, if there was another passage, phrased as somebody elses take on the events, would that help to drive home the "don't really know, never going to really know, but here's a guess" idea?
Or, in addition, if there was another passage, phrased as somebody elses take on the events, would that help to drive home the "don't really know, never going to really know, but here's a guess" idea?
Thats a lot of work. A footnote that states that there are varried theories and speculations on Athas' past, but no one knows the real truth behind the world's actual history would cover it IMO.
Surely the 2e design team can release a document like that as the "final word" on all the various interpretations.
Surely that statement assumes that the timeline was (1) published as official, and (2) actually written by a design team as opposed to one overworked individual, and (3) that all the various facts and interpretations were taken into account.
The history of DS design, unlike the history of DS, involves participants that are mostly living, and can be tracked down and interviewed. And many of us were in contact with them *while* the products were being written. Some of the stuff in the later products was actually a response to questions that we'd made to a designer, for example.
The 2e groups (and there were multiple groups, often with little continuity between them, and sometimes little contact between members of an active group) consisted of very talented individuals, but when it comes to catching and avoiding contradiction, we're better at it, simply because there are more of us, and because a number of us have been at this project for longer than any member of the 2e team ever was. That doesn't mean that we don't err -- that's the purpose of these beta releases.
(3) that all the various facts and interpretations were taken into account.
BwahaHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! /dies laughing...snif
Surely that statement assumes that the timeline was (1) published as official, and (2) actually written by a design team as opposed to one overworked individual, and (3) that all the various facts and interpretations were taken into account.
Not to mention that the dates are mostly incorrect.
Surely that statement assumes that the timeline was (1) published as official...
Huh? It was published on the WotC website under the section for 2e DS material. How much more official can it get? The other downloads there look official enough to me.
The 2e groups (and there were multiple groups, often with little continuity between them, and sometimes little contact between members of an active group) consisted of very talented individuals, but when it comes to catching and avoiding contradiction, we're better at it, simply because there are more of us, and because a number of us have been at this project for longer than any member of the 2e team ever was. That doesn't mean that we don't err -- that's the purpose of these beta releases.
Sorry, I understood from what your man xlorep said that athas.org's policy was to leave inconcistencies alone rather than catch and avoid or correct them. I'm cool with whatever y'all do (heh, well, apart from your recent bout of mucking around with the whole brown tide/pristine tower/zik chil thing for no good reason) - I just wanna know the straight dope from you guys. Options good. Unexplained confusion bad.
Huh? It was published on the WotC website under the section for 2e DS material. How much more official can it get? The other downloads there look official enough to me.
What he means is it's a crappy release, never finished, never reconsidered, cublled up together on the fly. It should have been a precise piece of info, but the DS line was cancelled before the Timeline got reviewed and became official. As an afterthought, someone at TSR thought it worth it to post their draft of the Timeline.
Technically, it's official because it's from TSR. Realistically, it's wide open for interpretation.
Huh? It was published on the WotC website under the section for 2e DS material. How much more official can it get? The other downloads there look official enough to me.
Wait, huh? What WotC website with a section for 2e DS material? Give a link. The only website I know of that lists the 2e Dark Sun material, and has the Timeline posted is Athas.org, since the timeline was never officially released by TSR (and definitely not directly by WotC, since Dark Sun's last publication was done before WotC took over D&D) -- it was, if memory serves, to be added to the Dregoth Ascending publication, which Athas.org cut out, and built into a separate download, or something like that. It also was incomplete, and only a rough draft at best.
Sorry, I understood from what your man xlorep said that athas.org's policy was to leave inconcistencies alone rather than catch and avoid or correct them. I'm cool with whatever y'all do (heh, well, apart from your recent bout of mucking around with the whole brown tide/pristine tower/zik chil thing for no good reason) - I just wanna know the straight dope from you guys. Options good. Unexplained confusion bad.
Then you misunderstood what I wrote, and completely ignored some of the lengthy explanations I went the trouble to write to explain the situation in much more detail, how we are leaving options open, allowing for DMs to make the determination/decision on which way to go with the inconsistency. If you had somehow interpreted what I said as leaving things as "unexplained confusion", then maybe, just maybe, it's a good idea not to simply skim over a post, but read it ;).
What he means is it's a crappy release, never finished, never reconsidered, cublled up together on the fly. It should have been a precise piece of info, but the DS line was cancelled before the Timeline got reviewed and became official. As an afterthought, someone at TSR thought it worth it to post their draft of the Timeline.
Technically, it's official because it's from TSR. Realistically, it's wide open for interpretation.
:nods:
OK, figures. You and xlorep are much better at explaining things than ole Braxy - he just gets all riled up too easily. Plus you have a cuter butt ;)
So there are totally several different layers of cannonitude then? This is more official than that, that other thing looks like it's official but it isn't really, those things are official too but we hate them and their silly surfboards so screw 'em, this stuff isn't official but we forgot to say so etc etc.
Maybe y'all could have some kind of system for calling out things that are of whatever level of canonicitude? I dunno, maybe a little sticker on the cover, say a picture of a little red kank. One could mean that it's straightforward and should be taken as read. Two could mean that it's open to question. Three little red kanks could mean "dude, watch out, the stuff in here is totally controversial and some guy is gonna argue with you about it for days if you so much as even mention it online..."
Ya think?
Wait, huh? What WotC website with a section for 2e DS material? Give a link. The only website I know of that lists the 2e Dark Sun material, and has the Timeline posted is Athas.org, since the timeline was never officially released by TSR (and definitely not directly by WotC, since Dark Sun's last publication was done before WotC took over D&D) -- it was, if memory serves, to be added to the Dregoth Ascending publication, which Athas.org cut out, and built into a separate download, or something like that. It also was incomplete, and only a rough draft at best.
Dude, it's right here:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dnd/downloads
along with loads of 1e and 2e goodness. Dig in, hombre.
Then you misunderstood what I wrote, and completely ignored some of the lengthy explanations I went the trouble to write to explain the situation in much more detail, how we are leaving options open, allowing for DMs to make the determination/decision on which way to go with the inconsistency. If you had somehow interpreted what I said as leaving things as "unexplained confusion", then maybe, just maybe, it's a good idea not to simply skim over a post, but read it ;).
Meh, too much trouble. Skimming is easier, faster and makes for fascinating exchanges like this one later on. Why bother reading the whole thing when I can jsut misinterpret it and use that to stir it up a little?
Brax? Flip?
(My own answer is...if an official document says Rajaat is human, and Ktandeo was an halfling, well the document is official but those pieces of info are erroneous.)
Huh?
Exactly.
It was published on the WotC website under the section for 2e DS material.
Which is very kind of them, because it's got some useful stuff in it. But those of us who remember the context in which the timeline was sent out, realize that it's little more an official DS publication than my remarks to you on this board constitute an official DS publication. One designer's educated opinion, un-reviewed, and offered for purpose of clarification. Interestingly, some of the folks in the fan community were nearly as obnoxious to the designer as you have been here, and consequently, he left the discussion.
How much more official can it get? The other downloads there look official enough to me.
Well if your idea of "official" is "anything published on the WotC website under the section for 2e DS material," or anything that looks official enough to you, out of context, that would explain why we don't see eye to eye on the matter.
I think most of us consider the WJ the central canon by which everything else is measured, both for style and content.
-- have to cut short the conversation and go handle an international incident.
One designer's educated opinion, un-reviewed, and offered for purpose of clarification. Interestingly, some of the folks in the fan community were nearly as obnoxious to the designer as you have been here, and consequently, he left the discussion.
Dude, I live in hope... :P
Well if your idea of "official" is "anything published on the WotC website under the section for 2e DS material," or anything that looks official enough to you, out of context, that would explain why we don't see eye to eye on the matter.
Nah man, it's cool - you're a little late to the thread. Your main men Penn and Xlorep laid it on the line for me
-- have to cut short the conversation and go handle an international incident.
Ya know I'll just be waiting for you to pitch back up
That's the origin of the DS timeline. A post on a mailing list; it's never been published in an official DS product from TSR, though it was used to inform some of the historical information presented in PAoA.
That time line specifically says that during the Blue Age the Halflings were the only intelligent race. Interesting point considering the current discussion on the origins of the Zik-chil.
AZAZEL
There's also a time line of sorts in the Wandererd Chronicle but it does not give specific dates for events.
That time line specifically says that during the Blue Age the Halflings were the only intelligent race. Interesting point considering the current discussion on the origins of the Zik-chil.
AZAZEL
'kreen existed, but they weren't intelligent; just big bugs with pretty wings.
'kreen existed, but they weren't intelligent; just big bugs with pretty wings.
Yes I know they existed but they were not intellegent. This lends credence to literally any theory of where the Zik-chil, and indeed all modern intellegent Kreen, came from.
Also, the thri-kreen wouldn't know that they didn't meet speakind dra-creatures until the Green Age if they didn't have some memory of the Blue Age.
The timeline says they were non-sentient, but the timeline is considered by many to have been rushed out, and contradicts some of what is actually written out in the books.
Yes I know they existed but they were not intellegent. This lends credence to literally any theory of where the Zik-chil, and indeed all modern intellegent Kreen, came from.
...and sets up the way for the creation of new canon, what Bruno did with the LSH.
Dude, I live in hope... :P
Ah, that's not what I meant. I dissapear from the discussion for weeks or years at a time anyway, and even if you did annoy me to the point of gandalfing, I'd certainly not give you the satisfaction of letting you know that you had that kind of power. :D
It says in Thri-Kreen of Athas that they were primitive, and had no weapons or tools, but it also says they had some perception (albeit slow) of what was changing in the world around them.
I'm not sure that make them smarter, or even as smart, as a trin.
...and sets up the way for the creation of new canon, what Bruno did with the LSH.
Or an easier and more logical explaination would be they got changed in the rebirth and got smarter etc.
So there are totally several different layers of cannonitude then? This is more official than that, that other thing looks like it's official but it isn't really, those things are official too but we hate them and their silly surfboards so screw 'em, this stuff isn't official but we forgot to say so etc etc.
Maybe y'all could have some kind of system for calling out things that are of whatever level of canonicitude? I dunno, maybe a little sticker on the cover, say a picture of a little red kank. One could mean that it's straightforward and should be taken as read. Two could mean that it's open to question. Three little red kanks could mean "dude, watch out, the stuff in here is totally controversial and some guy is gonna argue with you about it for days if you so much as even mention it online..."
There are no official hierarchical levels of canon. The only official guideline we pose at athas.org is that designer narration overrules character narration. Characters, whether it is Hamanu, Oronis, Mon Adderath or Umbra, can be biased. Designers are generally more objective.
The timeline says they were non-sentient, but the timeline is considered by many to have been rushed out, and contradicts some of what is actually written out in the books.
We don't consider the timeline the final word; where it contradicts the books, we go with the books, but where it's completely uncontradicted, it's still a source. That's why you see me and others referring to it as the "quasi-official timeline." Like RedKank pointed out, it has been put up on the WOTC site, so we don't dismiss it, but the context in which it appeared makes it less authoritative than official "canon." Essentially we treat more or less the same as, say, the unpublished designer notes on Dregoth Ascending or Secrets of the Dead Lands, or like a current beta release document by Athas.org -- useful and hopefully insightful, but unverified.
There are no official hierarchical levels of canon. The only official guideline we pose at athas.org is that designer narration overrules character narration. Characters, whether it is Hamanu, Oronis, Mon Adderath or Umbra, can be biased. Designers are generally more objective.
Agreed, noting the word "generally," since sometimes the 2e designers contradict each other, at which point we either
(a) officially leave both possibilities open, or
(b) postpone addressing the contradiction until a project makes it necessary, or
(c) figure out some really clever way to "quilt" the contradictions, i.e. find the least unlikely set of facts in which the statements by designer A and designer B don't actually contradict each other, or, as a last resort,
(d) consider a retcon.
Agreed, noting the word "generally," since sometimes the 2e designers contradict each other, at which point we either
(a) officially leave both possibilities open, or
(b) postpone addressing the contradiction until a project makes it necessary, or
(c) figure out some really clever way to "quilt" the contradictions, i.e. find the least unlikely set of facts in which the statements by designer A and designer B don't actually contradict each other, or, as a last resort,
(d) consider a retcon.
Hence my use of the word "generally." Thanks for fleshing it out, Brax.
Seems like clarification & not retconning to me. They didn't have an "origin" to start with so how is it being changed?
This already got covered in the first couple of posts in the thread. Brax is waaaay ahead of you in the nitpicking states, dude
Still a stupid idea, though.
Ah, that's not what I meant. I dissapear from the discussion for weeks or years at a time anyway, and even if you did annoy me to the point of gandalfing, I'd certainly not give you the satisfaction of letting you know that you had that kind of power. :D
Aw, shucks - you're just sayin' that. Never mind. So long as I can provoke ya to the ocassional burst of hissy-fit name-calling, I'll consider it good :P
Agreed, noting the word "generally," since sometimes the 2e designers contradict each other, at which point we either
(a) officially leave both possibilities open, or
(b) postpone addressing the contradiction until a project makes it necessary, or
(c) figure out some really clever way to "quilt" the contradictions, i.e. find the least unlikely set of facts in which the statements by designer A and designer B don't actually contradict each other, or, as a last resort,
(d) consider a retcon.
So how do you respond to fan opinions on contraditctions, retcons or clarifications?
Of those who chose to respond to this poll, 2 agree with the new zik-chil story, 6 disagree and 2 are neither (xlorep said he didn't completely disagree with the idea, but didn't entirely agree with the presentation, and Phoenix M said meh.)
Are you gonna consider getting rid of the zik-chil story as presented in the Life Shaping book, or clearly call it out as just some untrustworthy bit of historical opinion? And what about the total retcons to the Brown Tide and Pristine Tower? Those last two actively change the established canon, after all, and are far worse than some whacko ideas about shapeshifting hobbit-bugs...
Aw, shucks - you're just sayin' that. Never mind. So long as I can provoke ya to the ocassional burst of hissy-fit name-calling, I'll consider it good :P
Settle down, RedKank.
?
shapeshifting hobbit-bugs...
That SO puts it into perspective!
This already got covered in the first couple of posts in the thread. Brax is waaaay ahead of you in the nitpicking states, dude
Still a stupid idea, though.
Yeah, well that was my vote. Dude.
Yeah, well that was my vote. Dude.
Not very clear if it is. Hombre.
I'll guess that you agree, though. So that makes 3 who voted agree, 6 disagree and 2 others.
And I agree as well.
You can't vote. You're an athas.org drone. I've decided that this poll is for fans only. And I may further limit it to fans who only agree with me, if the vote starts to swing the other way.
:P
So how do you respond to fan opinions on contraditctions, retcons or clarifications?
If you run a search on my discussions on this forum, you'll see that the answer to that question is "it depends." And that's generally true of everyone -- people's response to criticism depends on the nature, context, and style of the criticism. While Kevin Melka appeared driven off by rudeness, disrespect and lack of appreciation, those factors aren't as big a deal to me. Sure, I like being treated with politeness & respect, but they don't sway my response so much as precision and accuracy. I even had some exchanged with Strutinian that I regarded as productive, since he sometimes gave precise & accurate criticism.
Precision is the usual issue. Someone says "this sucks," or "this is stupid," that doesn't give me much to go on. I generally just ignore it, or, if I have reason to think that the critic is capable of more useful feedback, I ask for specifics. Likewise, if someone says "this is great", or "I love this project," most designers really appreciate it, and that's a nice warm fuzzy even for me, but precise praise or criticism would be more useful.
Accuracy issues are more rare, but they are a much bigger deal to me. For example, when Zardnar said he thought my work on Eldaarich was harmed by corny evocations of Mao and Stalin --e.g.,
The Soviets used armed forces to seize food from peasants in the 20's a'la the Red Guards in Wisdom of the Drylanders
-- the criticism annoyed me because it flat out misrepresented my work. No armed forces in WotDL "seizes food from peasants." The Red Guard deliver food and water to slave camps in exchange for the finished goods that those slave villages produce.
Your "retcon" misrepresentation here was far more offensive, because while Zardnar was addressing me specifically and completely innocently misread the original text, you were disseminating your "retcon" misrepresentation to the fan community, and pretending to get some sort of meaningful "poll" response based on that misrepresentation.
The thing is, I've seen your response to me and to Flip, so I know that you you know that it wasn't a retcon. But since you continue to call it that, I can't even assume that you believe the things that you're saying. And that casts everything you say in an ugly light.
I have no problem with your lack of desire to be taken seriously, because I don't need to take a person seriously in order to make use of their arguments or opinions in certain context. But when someone shows a pattern of intentional misrepresentation, that makes it very difficult for me to find any use for you at all. You're probably not going to influence me at this point, unless you actually show source text that I can look up and double-check that supports your arguments. You know, something that doesn't require any kind of trust. If you can't represent your own personal knowledge accurately, then as far as I know, this whole argument could be a game of oneupmanship for you, and you might not even care about the ZC, Red Tide, Pristine Tower, etc.
This already got covered in the first couple of posts in the thread. Brax is waaaay ahead of you in the nitpicking states, dude
It's not "nitpicking" to correct a material misrepresentation.
And you continue to use the word "retcon" even after you've essentially conceded that it's innacurate.
I told you right at the beginning of this discussion (don't recall which thread) that I'd treat the "poll" results as worth reading if and only if you edited the initial post and corrected your misrepresentation of what we'd done. You didn't do it; you left the "retcon" lie in the poll question.
Of those who chose to respond to this poll, 2 agree with the new zik-chil story, 6 disagree and 2 are neither (xlorep said he didn't completely disagree with the idea, but didn't entirely agree with the presentation, and Phoenix M said meh.)
The LSH had been out for some time and no one had responded to those issues, how do I know whether they were responding to the new story, or with your misrepresentation? And how many other folks didn't respond to your "poll," and bought off on your misrepresentation that we'd actually contradicted previous canon?
The main problem here is not actually RedKank's fault, though. The main problem as I see it is (1) the removal of the original context that framed the story as one man's personal interpretation of contradictory accounts (rather than objective fact), and (2) the LSH's improperly publishing without the Overcouncil-required edits that reinstated that context.
What I'd like to do, if the others will back me up, is fix the context problem, and then find another group of DS fan that hasn't been part of this sorry excuse for a discussion, and get their response. That's the only way to evaluate the quality of the idea separate from the distortions of the idea.
If you really insist that I edit the OP, then I can do that, but I figure that folks can read well enough the ensuing discussion and see how things panned out. You're making a huge deal out of something that was done and dusted back at the start of this thread as far as I am concerned.
So you wanna fix the context problem. That works for me. End of, as far as I am concerned, if that's as far as you wanna take it. I do think that you guys have gone too far with the two actual retcons (as well as the zik chil story), but I dunno how much you wanna do about that.
If you really insist that I edit the OP,
I did insist, but you didn't do it, and you acted as if I was just insulting you.
then I can do that, but I figure that folks can read well enough the ensuing discussion and see how things panned out.
They can, but will they do so before making their comments? And how far is the poll skewed because folks didn't agree with your initial null question?
You're making a huge deal out of something that was done and dusted back at the start of this thread
On the contrary, I'm complaining about your subsequent refusal to amend your initial mistatement. I called the issue to your attention within minutes of your first posting these "polls," and before anyone else had read them (I was looking at the read stats).
Thing is, I accepted your criticism of the use of the word retcon in post #4 of this thread
If you'd edited the word "retcon" from the "poll" question back when you acknowledged that it was inaccurate, I'd not be making a big deal. My complaint is that you failed to fix the problem, and you continue to act as if this skewed question could yield "poll" results.
haven't used it since in the context of the zik chil
You have used it continually, by leaving it up in your "poll" question, despite my request that you edit the question that folks are responding to.
Furthermore, the ZC reference wasn't the only one that was false. Just today you've continued to refer to the Brown Tide and Pristine Tower additions as "total retcons."
So you wanna fix the context problem.
At this point, I don't think it can be done on this board, like I said above.
That works for me. End of, as far as I am concerned, if that's as far as you wanna take it. I do think that you guys have gone too far with the two actual [misrepresentation] (as well as the zik chil story),
Well, if you've paid any attention to what I've said, then you know that I think that the beta LSH went way too far as well, by framing it as fact rather than as speculation.
You act as if I'm mad because of your disapproval. You're right that I'm angry, but it's because I've spent valuable time here to get fan responses to our work, and because I'm particularly interested in people's personal evaluation of that history blurb, and because your little narcisistic parade has made it impossible to obtain accurate data here on that topic.
Personally I'm not that worried about the Zik-Chil being ex lifebenders but the brown tide part was a bit of a change over the Revised Boxed Set reason for the brown tide and seemed to be from the designers POV not the Wanderers.
More than a few of the issues I have with some of Athas.orgs work is also due to the limitations of the rules they're using rather than the quality of the work itself (such as the Dragon/Avangion rules). I may have mentioned that I really detest spellcaster multiclassing in 3.5 and in particular the Epic Level Handbook.
In any event I think there is some perception of either a holier than thou attitude or of being ignored by Athas.org that goes beyond them refusing to use any of your ideas (more than a few of mine have been stupid BTW). Why ask for feedback if its gonna be ignored or negative feedback provokes arguements and trolling?
That being said more than a few people here (including me) could maybe frame the negative feedback better as to not provoke or upset people and in return maybe Athas.org could change things in some of their documents. No need to do a major revision if someone comes up with some great defiling rules ar a varient Templar (Sysane had a good one BTW).
Athas.org also seems to be shorthanded but at a rough guess you don't want everyone to be a Templar but maybe a new rank (Gladiator?) could be done for anyone with a contribution to make but doesn't have the time or inclination to be a Templar or it can be used as a stepping stone towards being Templar for anyone who Athas.org is thinking of promoting or can be used for someone to prove themselves if they want to gain Athas.orgs attention. Also a few small mini projects might be an idea you could publish from "Gladiatiors"- short adventures, 16 page mini booklets etc. It would also break the drought so to speak as major releases don't come out that often as they are 100+ pages sorta thing.
Brax takes himself far too seriously and picks nits like an insane she-gorilla.
I smell like aubergine. What's a guy to do?
You can't vote. You're an athas.org drone. I've decided that this poll is for fans only. And I may further limit it to fans who only agree with me, if the vote starts to swing the other way.
:P
That's funny, since athas.org is made by fans for fans. And the only drone around here I hear is a kank painted red that keeps droning on and on about something that he can choose to ignore, has already been acknowledged by athas.org and has been dealt with.
I remember when this place used to be a community of ideas, rather than a 3rd grade playground.
That's funny, since athas.org is made by fans for fans. And the only drone around here I hear is a kank painted red that keeps droning on and on about something that he can choose to ignore, has already been acknowledged by athas.org and has been dealt with.
I remember when this place used to be a community of ideas, rather than a 3rd grade playground.
I think he believes himself to be humorous. But then again, that's a rather typical response/reaction a forum troll has whenever he or she is called out on what was said.
I think he believes himself to be humorous. But then again, that's a rather typical response/reaction a forum troll has whenever he or she is called out on what was said.
Perfect time to use the ignore button if I ever saw one
Why ask for feedback if its gonna be ignored or negative feedback provokes arguements and trolling?
I think that you're failing to distinguish negative feedback from negative spam.
I think that when someone asks for "feedback" on a beta project, we all take it for granted that they are asking for comments that is accurate (i.e. responds to what is written), precise (i.e. isn't vague), and relevant, e.g. the reviewer addresses aspects of the project rather than making personal inferences about the writer, e.g. whining about what the reviewer perceives as the writer's "holier than thou attitude. Inaccurate, vague, and irrelevant comments are not really feedback on the beta project; they are spam.
I've picked up useful feedback, both positive and negative, from this board, but I sometimes have to sort through a lot of spam to get it.
As someone who teaches in research methodology, I can say there is no point in editing the initial post at this stage. The whole thread is already biased and you would have answers based on different premises, thus reducing the reliability of the poll even further.
I agree; indeed I think that the kank has fouled the whole board as far as getting reliable poll results on this topic. My initial post requesting the editing occurred minutes after the kank first posted his "polls," back when the board showed only one or two views on each of the posts.
OTOH, RK's foolishness was forseeable from our error of sending LSH to Beta without the edits that were submitted reinstating the context of the passage as Oronis' speculation.
just my two bits
Without getting drawn into the semantics, I would simply like to say that I disagree with the change made to the origin of the zik-chil. I liked their older 'completely different' concept better.
Excellent example of how RK's fouled the poll. Folks just hop on assuming that RK knew what he was talking about when he implied that previous sources had laid out a "'completely different' concept." It's not feedback, since it presumes a "change made to the origin" when there was no previous statement about the origin of the ZC. Fact is that the original sources did not state where the ZC came from.
RK claims that he's fixed the problem by clarifying that he was mistaken to call it a retcon, but look how Cahir just blows that off as "Semantics." That's pretty strong evidence that RK's misrepresentation has left readers clueless about what's at issue here. The result critiques are as useless as Zardnar's critique of stuff that no one ever said in WotDL. The stuff isn't even feedback, since it doesn't even respond to what we did.
Chahir
I understand that you guys are trying to keep the world alive, but how about focusing a little more on things like Legends of Athas? or Secrets of the Deadlands? That one could have been finished long ago, I've read the 2E original and all you really have to do is plug in the monsters from TotDL, add some nice borders to the pages, and its DONE. Or are you going to take even more time, and make Rhulisti Bug Mutants responsible for that too?
I think that you're failing to distinguish negative feedback from negative spam.
I think that when someone asks for "feedback" on a beta project, we all take it for granted that they are asking for comments that is accurate (i.e. responds to what is written), precise (i.e. isn't vague), and relevant, e.g. the reviewer addresses aspects of the project rather than making personal inferences about the writer, e.g. whining about what the reviewer perceives as the writer's "holier than thou attitude. Inaccurate, vague, and irrelevant comments are not really feedback on the beta project; they are spam.
I've picked up useful feedback, both positive and negative, from this board, but I sometimes have to sort through a lot of spam to get it.
What would you recommend feedback be phrased as then I think you called me out when I said the Zik-Chil were to weak for a CR 8 encounter. Would it have been better phrased as something like.
" I think the Zik Chil are to weak ehen compared to other CR 8 encounters. It isn't that physically threatening, has no real spell like/psioonic powers of note and its special abilities aren't really threatening for a CR 8 critter. I suggest lowering the CR to perhaps 5 (ie a normal D&D Troll) or perhaps even 4 or giving it psionic abilities equal to a 7th level Psion" At CR 8 its supposed to be roughly as tough as a Mind Flayer or Aboleth which are alot stronger than a Zik-Chil
What seems obvious in my mind may not come out so well when I post it. Once againI may have put my foot in it with the holier than though comment. I' starting to like the taste of shoe leather it would seem.Attempted rephrase.
" In 2 years I haven't noticed any suggestions on these boards actually implemented by Athas.org. More than a few posters (including Athas.org) have expressed dismay at defiling rules and Templars in particular and have even posted imprved rules for them but they are never implemented. Why request feedback if there is a perception it is ignored or beta tests are only released for proofreading purposes and congratulations. If I wanted feedback and someone has done all the work for you and they are happy for it to become official why not use it? Copy, paste and an edit and bobs your uncle.
Excellent example of how RK's fouled the poll. Folks just hop on assuming that RK knew what he was talking about when he implied that previous sources had laid out a "'completely different' concept." It's not feedback, since it presumes a "change made to the origin" when there was no previous statement about the origin of the ZC. Fact is that the original sources did not state where the ZC came from.
RK claims that he's fixed the problem by clarifying that he was mistaken to call it a retcon, but look how Cahir just blows that off as "Semantics." That's pretty strong evidence that RK's misrepresentation has left readers clueless about what's at issue here. The result critiques are as useless as Zardnar's critique of stuff that no one ever said in WotDL. The stuff isn't even feedback, since it doesn't even respond to what we did.
It did state where they didn't come from though. See Terminus Vortexas post. If you want any previous canon could be considered "from a certain perspective" and you would have no canon. No contact with Halfings until the Green age. Its also not from the narrative part of the book.
From Thri Kreen of Athas page 3
During the Blue Age, the kreen were primitive, their development
stunted by their environment. The Blue Age ended and
the waters retreated, largely due to the actions of the ancient
halflings. Plants grew, and all manner of life spread across the
surface of Athas. The kreen met the halflings, as well as many of
the races that sprang from the halflings, among them dwarves,
elves, humans, and giants. The kreen evolved, they developed
weapons and a civilization. They honed their mental powers,
and many became masters of the Way.
Thanks for the backup on that, Zaardnar! And I do believe you're right about the process of releasing projects in beta, just for props and such, and then not taking any feedback into account. They're too busy slowly morphing DS into their own campaign setting, and throwing canon facts from the books to the wind. Might as well call it Brax Sun, or Burnt World of Jon. Again, why are yo guys taking the time to warp the world of Athas , when SotDL has sat UNCONVERTED for the past......7 years or so? 10 if you count the the time you had it before the conversion to 3E? That product was complete, minus illustrations, in 2E form. Ah, heck, I'm just repeating myself. What's the use?
During the Blue Age, the kreen were primitive, their development.
Stunted by their environment. The Blue Age ended and the waters retreated, largely due to the actions of the ancient halflings. Plants grew, and all manner of life spread across the surface of Athas. The kreen met the halflings, as well as many of the races that sprang from the halflings, among them dwarves, elves, humans, and giants. The kreen evolved, they developed weapons and a civilization. They honed their mental powers, and many became masters of the Way.
The underlined portion is of particular interest. This leaves it that the rhulisti may have met the kreen at the close of the Blue Age and shortly before the Rebirth. It could have been in that time the nature benders/masters could have tampered with the kreen to help them on their way to evolving.
My point? There are many ways to interpret the same canon material and see what you want to see. Having a variety of choices is never a bad thing IMO.
Every single canonical reference in the 2E books either explicitly states or implies that Kreen and Rhulisti(and RebirthRaces) developed seperately. Their choices in weapons and difference in cultures supports this. Not to mention the fact that one is a race of BUGS and the other is a race of MAMMALS.
Why does everything on Athas have to be about the Rhulisti? Especially when there is absolutely no evidence to support it. That's like saying that because only a feew sources say that humans aren't descended from pinecones, that we should grab up the idea that we ARE descended from pinecones, and defend it tooth and nail, because even though logic, morphology and phenotype are sure evidence that we are NOT descended from pinecones, that's not enough evidence for us.
I do believe one of the major points of having the Kreen present on Athas was to have at least one culture or race that followed their natural path, and weren't the descendants of the Yuuzhan-Hobbits of Tyr'Agi.
" In 2 years I haven't noticed any suggestions on these boards actually implemented by Athas.org. More than a few posters (including Athas.org) have expressed dismay at defiling rules and Templars in particular and have even posted imprved rules for them but they are never implemented. Why request feedback if there is a perception it is ignored or beta tests are only released for proofreading purposes and congratulations. If I wanted feedback and someone has done all the work for you and they are happy for it to become official why not use it? Copy, paste and an edit and bobs your uncle.
Thanks for the backup on that, Zaardnar! And I do believe you're right about the process of releasing projects in beta, just for props and such, and then not taking any feedback into account. They're too busy slowly morphing DS into their own campaign setting, and throwing canon facts from the books to the wind. Might as well call it Brax Sun, or Burnt World of Jon. Again, why are yo guys taking the time to warp the world of Athas , when SotDL has sat UNCONVERTED for the past......7 years or so? 10 if you count the the time you had it before the conversion to 3E? That product was complete, minus illustrations, in 2E form. Ah, heck, I'm just repeating myself. What's the use?
Nothing can be farther from the truth. There have been countless changes made based on fan feedback. Otherwise, why would we have a 6th version of the DS3 Core Rules? Consider that almost all additions to our ranks have come from this fan community. Elonarc, Bruno1, Sinott, Sysane, XlorepDarkhelm, Scott, Cnahumck to name some. Do you think these veteran community members do not bring opinions and thoughts discussed in the community to the group?
There is no way we can please every fan - or even subgroups of fans - or make a change for every comment that is made. Consider for yourself how often you think an idea or comment presented really should be made official, and then put yourself in our position. There are many opinions, and we actually listen to and value them all, but we simply cannot implement every suggestion. Sometimes we even have to turn down excellent proposals because they simply do not fit or they aren´t necessarily better than what already exists. And sometimes things just take time to implement.
Respect that we are volunteers and do not get paid, and we cannot force people to work on certain projects. People will have to be allowed to work on the parts of Athas they want. Otherwise they will quit and no one will release new official products.
Athas.org was chosen by Wizards of the Coast and given a mandate to preserve and develop Athas and Dark Sun. That is our only interest. Of course all who are involved appreciate the privelege of our mandate and to be credited for our unpaid work, but to imply that Brax and I are rewriting Dark Sun in our own vision is outright wrong, and also insulting to the entire athas.org team whose members work very hard so you and the rest of the fans can get new material for their Dark Sun games.
Why does everything on Athas have to be about the Rhulisti?
More often than not, the Rhulisti have been directly or indirectly behind almost every major event on Athas. Not saying that they would have turned themselves into zik-chil mind you, but the rhulisti's culture has had long reaching effects across Athas' history as proven by canon.
For example, I'm a fan, and I deemed athas.org's products to be lacking in magic items, so I strove to create some. In this process I got drafted in the templarate, and so was my collegue and friend I made while designing these items.
The half-life of a templar is very short, and there is a constant inflow of new templars, at least one or two a year, if not more. Many of us leave for a multitude of reasons, years down the road.
I stand corrected. I was under the impression that there was a canon source for the origin of the zik-chil.
It's not your fault. The poll question was inherently misleading.
TZ's statement about evolving "independently" is presented out of context, because the original context clearly refered to evolving independently from Thri Kreen and Tohr-Kreen, not independently of any other creature. This is why I've repeatedly asked TZ to point to the specific quotes that he beleives back up his claims.
As for Zardnar's gripes about being unappreciated and never listened to:
Zardnar, when you've actually paid attention to the products that you're criticizing, and explained the specific basis of your complaint, I have used your feedback. For example, I changed the name of "Tsao Gunt" to "Amo Gunt" because you griped that Tsao sounded like some General something's chicken, and that the asian sound of the name was out of place. Presto. Done. If you have anything else relevant, useful to say that accurately addresses the products, I'll use that too, if I don't miss it in all your less useful comments.
You'll be listened to more if you focus on quality rather than quantity of remarks. You take the time to quote the source, which is cool
During the Blue Age, the kreen were primitive, their development stunted by their environment. The Blue Age ended and the waters retreated, largely due to the actions of the ancient halflings. Plants grew, and all manner of life spread across the surface of Athas. The kreen met the halflings, as well as many of the races that sprang from the halflings, among them dwarves, elves, humans, and giants. The kreen evolved, they developed
weapons and a civilization. They honed their mental powers, and many became masters of the Way.
But then you totally fail to explain what in that quote supports your claims that the sources say that the Zic-Chil evolved separately from any other races, or that the sources say that the kreen evolved without the interference of any other species.
So how exactly does that quote contradict any of Oronis theories laid out in the LSH?
The underlined portion is of particular interest. This leaves it that the rhulisti may have met the kreen at the close of the Blue Age and shortly before the Rebirth. It could have been in that time the nature benders/masters could have tampered with the kreen to help them on their way to evolving.
My point? There are many ways to interpret the same canon material and see what you want to see. Having a variety of choices is never a bad thing IMO.
That's how I see it. And even though Flip and I have repeatedly said that the LSH passage should be framed as one NPC's opinion, Zardnar and RedKank continue the discussion as if we were trying to pass that interpretation as objective history. Zardnar repeatedly asks:
Why ask for feedback if its gonna be ignored
I've responded at least three times to that question by explaining that we cannot implement "feedback" that (1) INNACURATELY describes the ideas that he's pretending to address, or (2) fails to PRECISELY identify the contradiction or problem that he's complaining about. (e.g. if he says that it contradicts the sources, he needs to precisely convey what source it contradicts and how it contradicts it, unless the contradiction is obvious to everyone). So to turn Zardnar's question on him, why does Zardnar ask that question and then ignore the answers?
That statement establishes that Zik'Chil are Tohr-Kreen
2.)TKoA, p.125> Ecology: Trin are supreme hunters in their home territories, generally falling only to intelligent or extremely powerful opponents. They eat all forms of animal life. They are to thri-kreen what cavemen (neanderthals)
are to humans
Implies that all Kreen and related species comes from a common ancestor, since the other Kreen-Like species are referred to as Tohr0Kreen, and thus are all Kreen. However, I digress, and the Trin are not the issue at hand
3.)TKoA, p.3> Then came the Time of Magic, the age of Rajaat and of the
Cleansing Wars he launched to eliminate the offshoots of the halfling race. The kreen did not study magic, nor were they a part of the Cleansing Wars. Because they were not descended from halflings,, Rajaat saw the kreen as little more than animals.
Plainly states that Kreen are NOT descended from halflings. If anyone were to know, it would be Rajaat. In my first reference in this post, I cite canon that establishes Zik-Cjil as Kreen. In statement 3, I cite canon that Rajaat left the Kreen alone because they were not Halfling offshoots. Therefore, Zik-Chil are not halfling offshoots.
A) trin, compared with kreen, are like an ancestor to the other, just like neaderthals are to modern man
B) trin, towards kreen, are as "primitive" as neaderthals are to modern man
Option A is the only one of the two that suggests relative dating and ancestry, while option B (as valid as option A!) only says its "primitive", just like a modern day calhulak is primitive compared to a Green Age metal sword...but guess which one of the two weeapons is older? Obviously one is like a neaderthal compared to the other, but they are not related in ancestry. One is a sword, the other some exotic weapon, and in fact the more "advanced" one comes from the past! Yet, we can use the neaderthal analogy in that case, so that analogy is not related only to actual cases of ancestry.
1. )TKoA, p. 7> Zik-Chil - “zik” also has pseudo-religious connotations “priest-of-change;” pale tohr-kreen, cold and manipulative, creators of zik-trin, revered and feared by the tohr-kreen
That statement establishes that Zik'Chil are Tohr-Kreen
Much better, TV. That's much better. The sentence states that, but as you cited above, it later states that the ZC evolved independently, didn't it?
2.)TKoA, p.125> Ecology: Trin are supreme hunters in their home territories, generally falling only to intelligent or extremely powerful opponents. They eat all forms of animal life. They are to thri-kreen what cavemen (neanderthals)
are to humans
Implies that all Kreen and related species comes from a common ancestor
That's a tautology, since related species means species coming from a common ancestor. Your analysis begs the question of which species are "related species."
since the other Kreen-Like species are referred to as Tohr0Kreen
The part you quoted did not say "kreen-like"; it said "thri-kreen."
3.)TKoA, p.3> Then came the Time of Magic, the age of Rajaat and of the Cleansing Wars he launched to eliminate the offshoots of the halfling race. The kreen did not study magic, nor were they a part of the Cleansing Wars. Because they were not descended from halflings,, Rajaat saw the kreen as little more than animals.
That assumes that the ZC were kreen, which is a good assumption based your page 7 reference, but is less secure if contradicted in other parts of Canon.
If anyone were to know, it would be Rajaat.
I disagree. He's certainly more knowledgeable than most, but there are others, e.g. the leaders of halflings such as those frozen in Cleft Rock, who are more likely to know. Rajaat's not that old; he's a child of the Rebirth.
In my first reference in this post, I cite canon that establishes Zik-Cjil as Kreen.
Only if other canonical references don't throw that into question.
In statement 3, I cite canon that Rajaat left the Kreen alone because they were not Halfling offshoots. Therefore, Zik-Chil are not halfling offshoots.
OK. So now how are you going to argue that Oronis could not come to the conclusion, from the limited sources available to him, that the ZC were the nature-benders?
Also, for the Zik-Chil write-up, I'd like to suggest that their favored or primarily class be changed from Cleric to Psion, or maybe even wilder. It says in TKoA that the Zik component of their name has pseudo-religeous connotations, there is another word entirely for actual Priests, Ik. It seems like Psionics would be of more use in the creation and of absolute necessity in the mental conditioning of Zik-Trin. Psychometabolism powers could be developed to give the Zik-Chil greater control of their enzymes and the results they catalyze.
Zik - to change radically; one who effects or goes through such change; compare to "ik," "priest;" "zik" also has pseudo-religious connotations
I'd suggest three versions: (1) the edited subjective version that I submitted earlier, (2) An alternate version saying that the ZC always had their form but that the ZC were actually the Nature Benders that the halflings fought against, and had evolved from the flying trin-like progenitor of the kreen millenia before the Rebirth; and (3) something else.
I'm willing to compromise, kind of. I don't think this issue will ever be completely resolved, so how's this - I'd like to ask that you make it very, explicitly clear in the LSH that the connection between Zik-Chil and Halflings is Oronis' partially-informed conjecture, and not necessarily fact.
Agreed; that's what I've been saying here since the "polls" first appeared, and Flip, Jon and I had pretty much agreed on this weeks before that. The tentative elements of what I originally wrote were removed from the current Beta version.
Then , afterwards, as was done in TKoA, make a summation of what actually happened (IMO, the passage starting on the middle left of TKOA, where things are explained from the author's perspective).
There I disagree; We should avoid setting out objective "facts" regarding history until story development absolutely requires it. The WJ style is superior and more Dark-Sunnish in feel than the split style that devolved later.
Also, for the Zik-Chil write-up, ... [mechanical suggestions]
I'll leave those issues in Bruno's capable hands; that's not my domain.
Zik - to change radically; one who effects or goes through such change; compare to “ik,” “priest;” “zik” also has pseudo-religious connotations
Yes indeed! And that opens up a lot of contradictory possibilities.
How about that this - An alternate version saying that the ZC always had had evolved from the flying trin-like progenitor of the kreen millenia before the Rebirth,
Good
and that their implied similarity to Nature Benders and the lack of solid information available to Oronis led him to the mistaken conclusion that they were the Nature Benders.
I'd rather that the alternate versions didn't refer to Oronis' version, since Oronis' opinion is not known outside a handful of Kurnan scholars. Remember, every version is subjective and in character.
Perhaps the Nature Benders (the real, Rhulisti ones) were inspired in some way by the Zik-Chil
That's close to what I was suggesting for the 2nd alt version. It was years since did all the research to write the first one, shortly after Jagged Cliffs and TKoA came out, although I revised after the timeline appeared. I can't recall if the original materials ever stated right out that the nature benders *were* halflings. Certainly that was implied, but what if they were ZCs with some halfling followers? Just brainstorming here.
maybe the primitive proto-Kreen (Who, IIRC, had the ability to manipulate their own enzymes, the fundamental building block of Zik-Chil changing processes.)
That's believable, since it's not far off from what Kreen do now with Dasl. Maybe it's trainable, e.g. how some humans can learn to conciously affect parts of the metabolism that to the rest of us are unconcious processes.
That's believable, since it's not far off from what Kreen do now with Dasl. Maybe it's trainable, e.g. how some humans can learn to conciously affect parts of the metabolism that to the rest of us are unconcious processes.
Psychometabolism provides an easy avenue for this. Probably could be derived from any poison-producing power, as far as the mechanics such as level and such go. Shouldn't be too high level, IMO. Perhaps a power allowing Kreen to produce venom more rapidly could be made, as well, so Dasl production could be increased in pace by a Kreen of sufficient aptitude. I like the idea of it, but Kreen culture seems extremely defensive of the process for creating Dasl. But, if they had dra clutchmates, they may, perhaps be willing to explain the process.
That's close to what I was suggesting for the 2nd alt version. It was years since did all the research to write the first one, shortly after Jagged Cliffs and TKoA came out, although I revised after the timeline appeared. I can't recall if the original materials ever stated right out that the nature benders *were* halflings. Certainly that was implied, but what if they were ZCs with some halfling followers? Just brainstorming here.
I'd lean more towards the NBs covertly watched these ancient Kreen and learned what they were doing through observation, and not direct interaction. That would keep the idea(from TKoA and WotJC) that the Kreen and Halflings did not interact until the Green Age. If the NBs spied from a distance on these proto-Kreen, and were inspired by what they saw, it satisfies a lot of my perceptions for the situation. And if the NBs never told the NMs where they got their inspiration from, it would explain why the Rhul-Than don't know about any interaction between the Kreen and the Halflings before the Green Age, because there really was none. Just one-way observation.
Maybe Oronis got ahold of a very ancient, and poorly translated version of events like these, and thus came to the conclusions you put in the LSH.
How about that this - An alternate version saying that the ZC always had had evolved from the flying trin-like progenitor of the kreen millenia before the Rebirth, and that their implied similarity to Nature Benders and the lack of solid information available to Oronis led him to the mistaken conclusion that they were the Nature Benders.
Then it's no longer alternate, it's definite. It's no longer someone's opinion, it's an Author's Note. Bad move.
Proposition: Ziks, albeit they are kreen, trace their ancestry back to the kreen progenitor race instead of the long succession of evolutionnary steps regular kreen underwent. It can be suggested that this situation has a number of possible reasons behind them, one of the them being that a small group of the kreen progenitor race lost their wings and were trap on an island, and evolved differently from the rest of the kreen, and in the Green Age they met and the newly-dubbed ziks took over the kreen, and the other reason being that nature-benders came around the time of the Rebirth and found some remant of the kreen progenitor race and uplifted them and imparted their ways and techniques unto them, or they took general kreen and ressurected their old genetic traits while adding new ones.
I'd lean more towards the NBs covertly watched these ancient Kreen and learned what they were doing through observation, and not direct interaction.
Sounds like a viable third theory, giving us a full set.
That would keep the idea(from TKoA and WotJC) that the Kreen and Halflings did not interact until the Green Age.
As discussed a few days ago, those are your inferences, and not spelled out in TKoA and the WotJC. The fact that the kreen "met" the Rebirth Races during the Rebirth does not mean that a handful of "kreen" (the ZC) might not have met a handful of halflings.
But the official soures use the term "Tohr-kreen" in two different senses -- a broader sense that includes the Zik-Trin-ak (sp?) and a narrower sense referring to the species that are closely related to the Thri-kreen. Could be that the ZC are "Tohr-kreen" in the broader sense of that word, i.e. kreen-like creatures more intelligent and educated than Thri-kreen species.
If the NBs spied from a distance on these proto-Kreen, and were inspired by what they saw, it satisfies a lot of my perceptions for the situation. And if the NBs never told the NMs where they got their inspiration from, it would explain why the Rhul-Than don't know about any interaction between the Kreen and the Halflings before the Green Age, because there really was none. Just one-way observation.
One way observation is nonetheless a form of contact. And if we use your marvelous idea of ZC just mastering the kreenoid enzyme metabolism tricks, then I'm not sure what the NBs could have learned by pure observation.
Maybe Oronis got ahold of a very ancient, and poorly translated version of events like these, and thus came to the conclusions you put in the LSH
Oronis has access to a nearby blue Age ruin in the White Mountains, to interrogated undead members of Daskinor's CW army that sacked that city (in violation of Rajaat's orders), and may have had contact with Zik-Trin-Ak emissaries. He's also had a number of skirmishes with the rohorind halfings, who include descendants of that ruined Blue Age city and may have retained some of the legends. And he's got whatever Rajaat told him, which was probably more false than true, even if we assume that Rajaat himself knew all the facts about it. Most importantly, because of Oronis' background with Rajaat, of course Oronis would lean towards a version of history that puts halflings as the original cause of all pre-Rebirth knowledge
Sounds like a viable third theory, giving us a full set.
As discussed a few days ago, those are your inferences, and not spelled out in TKoA and the WotJC. The fact that the kreen "met" the Rebirth Races during the Rebirth does not mean that a handful of "kreen" (the ZC) might not have met a handful of halflings.
I can sort of see this, but I gravitate towards thinking any information exchange was pretty one-sided, (Kreen to Halfling)
But the official soures use the term "Tohr-kreen" in two different senses -- a broader sense that includes the Zik-Trin-ak (sp?) and a narrower sense referring to the species that are closely related to the Thri-kreen. Could be that the ZC are "Tohr-kreen" in the broader sense of that word, i.e. kreen-like creatures more intelligent and educated than Thri-kreen species.
I'll agree with this. I do, however, continue to think they all come from a common ancestor (the proto-kreen of the Green Age)
One way observation is nonetheless a form of contact. And if we use your marvelous idea of ZC just mastering the kreenoid enzyme metabolism tricks, then I'm not sure what the NBs could have learned by pure observation.
I kind of think that the NBs who saw the proto-Kreen observed them spitting into their claws, then using the spit to dissolve and reshape parts of their bodies, or mixing the spit with herbal components and re-consuming the resulting mixture, then undergoing physical changes. The NBs could have stealthily gotten ahold of some of the leftovers, and developed modified NB techniques to accomplish the same types of effects.
Oronis has access to a nearby blue Age ruin in the White Mountains, to interrogated undead members of Daskinor's CW army that sacked that city (in violation of Rajaat's orders), and may have had contact with Zik-Trin-Ak emissaries. He's also had a number of skirmishes with the rohorind halfings, who include descendants of that ruined Blue Age city and may have retained some of the legends. And he's got whatever Rajaat told him, which was probably more false than true.
Hmmmmm.......
(exception: I think that some objective voice history is appropriate when it comes to a DM's description of a specific area, in order to detail NPCs or explain the presence of specific treasure, etc. But there's IIRC no undead NPC dating back to the Blue Age!)
I ... think they all come from a common ancestor (the proto-kreen of the Green Age)
But how would the NBs have learned from the ZC if the ZCs didn't evolve until the Green Age?A common proto kreen ancestor is possible, but it would have to be a pre-Blue Age or at the latest, a very early Blue Age ancestor.
The reason I care I suppose was that I'm putting togather a new DS campaign set around FY 14-16 based around the Kreen invasion and I reread all the relevent 2nd ed info on Kreen and when I read the LSH I thought it was really wrong. The LSH set off my spidey sense so to speak.
I really like the fact that Kreen developed separately from the Halflings. Their body shaping abilities are not lifeshaping and are descipbed differently in numerous 2nd ed sourcebooks and they are very similar to the Xik-Chil of other campaign setting who even modify non-Kreen for a price. There was even a story in Dragon magazine about them (the Xik-Chil).
The Halflings also seemed to have a superiority complex and I find it unlikely they would want to turn themselves into Kreen when they had the "perfect" form already. Most of the arguements used to support the theory of Zik-Chil=Nature Benders seems to involve ingnoring established canon (its only someone elses opinion) or making some rather large leaps of fuzzy logic. Its says in black and white they developed by themselves and the descriptions we have of their shaping abilities are rather different form lifeshaping.
Maybe the Wanderer was wrong about Rajaat being Pyreen, or he duped the Sorceror Kings and was actually a magic using Halfling using spells to conceal his appearence. Why not if we just start ignoring established canon. Most people suporting the LSH book (even if its Oronis opinion) are members of Athas.org and thoseopposing are not.
Essnetially the group made a decision amoung themselves that the rest of the DS community doesn't seem to like. The existing facts seem to shoot Braxs theory down reasonably well and have to be taken out of context or ignored to make it fit which is kinda upsetting people.
Most things about the LSH regarding the Zik-Chil and the brown tide are wrong vs established canon and the best defence people can come up with is the account may be wrong as we like our idea better.
A common proto kreen ancestor is possible, but it would have to be a pre-Blue Age or at the latest, a very early Blue Age ancestor.
That's what I mean. I think the enzyme-manipulation trick was something the proto-Kreen had on a rudimentary level very early on. It says in TKoA that their evolution was held back by their environment. The ability to make on-the-fly changes would have been of immense value to a species whose born form was not changing much over the course of generations. Primitive proto-kreen could have been reshaping their claws to be more effective at grappling the prey that was currently available, or modifying their wings for faster or longer flight when they had to hop to other islands, if prey became scarce at their current location. These types of tricks would have helped them remain a viable species, even if they weren't evolving much during that time.
Later, when their species began to diverge into different sub-species during the Green Age, some Kreen developed these abilities to an even further degree (the Zik-Chil), while others turned them to different ends, like making Dasl weapons (the rest of the Kreen). The Zik-Chil could have been the ones to teach the other Kreen how to make Dasl, and they have known it for so long that it became part of the racial memory. It seems like each kreen sub-species fills a different niche in their society(at least in the empire), and the niche of the Zik-Chil seems to be the further development of those abilities that kept the Kreen viable during the Blue Age.
[snip rules discussion which isn't my specialty.]
[snip obnoxious reference to a "fact" that is Z's inference]
[ZC] body shaping abilities are not lifeshaping
You keep saying that as if it were relevant, but it's a false representation of this discussion to act as if anyone said that the ZCs were life SHAPERS. The 2e texts never do explain the difference between life SHAPING and nature-BENDING, or how the differences between those separate disciplines could have given rise to conflict.
they are very similar to the Xik-Chil of other campaign setting who even modify non-Kreen for a price. There was even a story in Dragon magazine about them (the Xik-Chil).
Yes, "they came from outer space" is also a possible theory, but you won't see it in our work because there's no living NPC that would think of that possibility, even if it was what actually happened.
The Halflings also seemed to have a superiority complex and I find it unlikely they would want to turn themselves into Kreen when they had the "perfect" form already.
Did you even bother to read the passage that you're critiquing? That's the whole point of the story! The halfling superiority thing is cultural. IF a group of halflings started to shape themselves, that chauvenism you describe would have turned the NBs into hated renegades.
This is a typical example of why your feedback is so rarely taken seriously, Zar. Because you critique stuff that you've barely read.
PRE-BLUE AGE (uncrecorded history)
s-sized Winged Protokreen with big wings flying between islands. They have trin-level intelligence. Halflings scattered on the islands live more or less at the tech level of 1600s Polynesians, with some hints of early life shaping tech.
Some isolated island, perhaps volcanic, has a climate that makes flying difficult, or perhaps it's so far away that some proto-kreen could only get there when blown off course and lost in a wind-storm. Having no where to island hop, and isolated from other proto-Kreen, this group heads down a different evolutionary path, eventually becoming Zic-Chil.
What later became known as "the Blue Age" starts when halflings form some sort of multi-island government, probably governed by life-shapers, and start the first "World Age" calendar, referring to their "world" government (which may or may not have covered most of the actual globe, but definitely consisted of everything that the Rhulisti considered to be the significant world.
SOME TIME IN THE BLUE AGE:
Improvements in Halfling life-shaping allows them to colonize more and more islands, and to create cities in the depths of the sea. Eventually there is some limited contact between the Zic-Chil and a few halflings who tire of the rule of the Nature Masters. The ZC desire travel (since they no longer have useful wings), and the dissident halflings desire abilities to allow them to be independent of the life-shapers.
The proto-kreen who continued to live in the islands where the halflings dwelt, evolve to somewhat larger creatures which is more convenient for preying on life-shaped cattle raised by the Rhulisti, who consider the proto-kreen a non-sentient predator.
REBIRTH
Some proto-kreen evolve into the trin, some into various kreen species, and the other winged ones die out, leaving the memory of gossamer wings to get mixed up in later legends of the "great one."
ETC.
What would set Oronis off on his theory would be discovering resemblances between the reports of "nature-bending" and hints of rumors of what the ZC are doing to their fellow-kreen. Realizing that this isn't a type of life shaping at all but rather a very different discipline. So naturally given his biases he assumes it came from the NBs rather than vice-versa.
"Modern" Zik-Chil could actually start off looking a lot more primitive than they do as we know them. Maybe their natural form is even more primitive, and they shape their arms from trin-like claws into the two different sets that they have in their known form. IIRC, the top set of arms looks like a regular mantis arm until they seperate it into the six-digit appendage they are known for.
This is just conjecture on my part, but I feel it helps explain why the zik-chil haven't changed too much since the Blue Age, except mentally, and thus validates the "throwback to ancient kreen" references in TKoA. They have no need to genetically evolve any further, as they shape themselves into what they feel to be the ideal form for their tasks and purposes.
Why not let sleeping dogs lie and word the description of the Zik-chil something like this.....
"The mysterious Zik-chil are responsible for the creation of the Zik-trin and are both revered and feared by the Thor-Kreen of the north. The exact nature and origin of these strange beings is not completely understood even to those who are close to them. Some say that the Zik-chil were once Halflings in a bygone age. Others say that they are simply another type of Kreen with abilities not fully understood. Still others say that the Zik-chil come from beyond the stars and are not of Athas at all. Whatever the truth behind the origin of Zik-chil it seems to have been lost to history and, perhaps, only the Zik-chil themselves know."
This description is 100% objective and shouldn't hurt anyones feelings. It keeps with the "unknown" aspect of Athas which generally runs through all the old 2nd edition supplements and it should encourage INDIVIDUAL DUNGEON MASTERS to come to their own conclusion.
AZAZEL
I would avoid having any subjective history listing stars/space as a possible source, simply because I can't think of any NPC or group that would tell that story. Doesn't mean that it could not have happened that way, but if it had, most groups would probably warp the story along the lines of "they came from another land," a far away island/valley, etc.
Ok I just wanted to say real quick that from the few darksun elven myths that I have read I could see them as a group thinking that creatures may come from the stars, and just to be a jerk so could the halflings aboard the messanger comet lol.
I would avoid having any subjective history listing stars/space as a possible source, simply because I can't think of any NPC or group that would tell that story. Doesn't mean that it could not have happened that way, but if it had, most groups would probably warp the story along the lines of "they came from another land," a far away island/valley, etc.
That is an excellent point. Who has actually met a Zik-chil?
Ok I just wanted to say real quick that from the few darksun elven myths that I have read I could see them as a group thinking that creatures may come from the stars,
Eh, that's true; I'd forgotten about the DK folk tales.
But here again Bias rears its ugly face. While the elves might have their star stories, I don't think that they distinguish between Zic-Chil, Kreen, and Trin, let alone knowing that little historical detail. How many folks in the tablelands even know about the ZC, other than the Zik-trin-ak, the Order (probably), and some of the SKs.
Ah, there's our narrator. If you want a space story, you might believably put it in the mouth of an Elven member of the Order.
Who has actually met a Zik-chil?
According to TKoA, some Tohr-Kreen and the Zik-Trin-ak would have met some ZC. One of the characters in the Order was a member of The Order in Dragon's Crown -- she's described as the "Tohr-Kreen" that rebelled during the psionatrix incident. (That's Tohr-kreen in the DSMCI sense, what TKoA calls the Zik-Trin-Ak or something like that. It's possible that the other members of the Order might have obtained information on the ZC through her, and if not, The position of the fortress and strength of the Order's members would make them more likely candidates than any Dra in the Tablelands to have extensive info on the Crimson Savannah.
I disagree. I disagree because I dont like the idea of the halflings being behind everything. I dont like the idea of any one group of people being behind everything in my fluff period no matter what kind of fluff it is.
I dont agree with anything that athas.org has ever posted or published. I dont agree with anything that TSR ever published for Darksun either. The only thing that I have ever agreed with that has ever been made for Darksun is the beautiful maps posted by brian.
That however is the beauty of Darksun. Athas is the most fantastic world ever crafted by TSR and oddly enough nothing ever written, and no one that has ever worked on it has agreed 100% about it. That is just part of the mystery of Athas. Is it a planet with two moons, or is it a moon of a gas giant that happens to have its own moon? Is it connected to the other worlds of D&D or is it all alone. Is defiling ok when used to do good, or is it always evil? Is it even evil if only used in self defense? Is gladiator combat wrong when everyone likes it and the participants that are involved in it are just as likely to want to be there as not? Athas is Grey, all shades of Grey there is no black and white of any kind(aside from the plane) whether it is source books, or morality no one will ever know what is really the truth of this world, and thats the way I like it. Thats what makes the world of the Darksun unique for each group that visits it, and thats what makes all of their adventures plausable and genuine.
The only thing that I really dislike is that there are people who because of the way fluff works in other stories/games/worlds will insist that just because it is published in a darksun document that it has to be true. Darksun cannot follow the rules of fluff that other stories/games/worlds follow, and thats because it never had a black and white background to start with, it has always been grey. A world of lies and deception, myth and legend, psionics and magic. Everything is opposed, everything trying to win. In the end nothing does and it all just stagnates into the slowly dying world of athas, both literally and figuratively.
Now that I have said my peace, please excuse any spells and grammar mistakes, and like anything haveing to do with athas take this with a grain of salt.
I dont agree with anything that athas.org has ever posted or published. I dont agree with anything that TSR ever published for Darksun either. The only thing that I have ever agreed with that has ever been made for Darksun is the beautiful maps posted by brian.
That however is the beauty of Darksun. Athas is the most fantastic world ever crafted by TSR and oddly enough nothing ever written, and no one that has ever worked on it has agreed 100% about it. That is just part of the mystery of Athas. Is it a planet with two moons, or is it a moon of a gas giant that happens to have its own moon? Is it connected to the other worlds of D&D or is it all alone. Is defiling ok when used to do good, or is it always evil? Is it even evil if only used in self defense? Is gladiator combat wrong when everyone likes it and the participants that are involved in it are just as likely to want to be there as not? Athas is Grey, all shades of Grey there is no black and white of any kind(aside from the plane) whether it is source books, or morality no one will ever know what is really the truth of this world, and thats the way I like it. Thats what makes the world of the Darksun unique for each group that visits it, and thats what makes all of their adventures plausable and genuine.
The only thing that I really dislike is that there are people who because of the way fluff works in other stories/games/worlds will insist that just because it is published in a darksun document that it has to be true. Darksun cannot follow the rules of fluff that other stories/games/worlds follow, and thats because it never had a black and white background to start with, it has always been grey. A world of lies and deception, myth and legend, psionics and magic. Everything is opposed, everything trying to win.
Well-said, O. That's exactly the point.
I disagree because I dont like the idea of the halflings being behind everything. I dont like the idea of any one group of people being behind everything in my fluff period no matter what kind of fluff it is.
What this passage was supposed to be in the original, was one NPC's opinion. Given Oronis' background with Rajaat, I think he'd tend to see things in terms of one group of people being behind all of the schemes.
There's also a time line of sorts in the Wanderers Chronicle but it does not give specific dates for events.
That time line specifically says that during the Blue Age the Halflings were the only intelligent race. Interesting point considering the current discussion on the origins of the Zik-chil.
AZAZEL
It says in Thri-Kreen of Athas that they were primitive, and had no weapons or tools, but it also says they had some perception (albeit slow) of what was changing in the world around them. Non-sentient creatures wouldn't have perceived such things.
As you see, the official sources contradict each other on this matter. For us to embrace one official theory at the expense of another would be a retcon. What Flip and I have proposed doing is simply treating all of the contradictory accounts as subjective theories, and creating other subjective theories to compete with them. That's not a retcon -- it's essentially saying, we don't know. This is why I found the accusation that we were doing a "retcon" so venemous. It's the exact opposite of the truth, and those yelling this are the ones trying to get us to do a retcon, i.e. want us to officially validating their favorite 2e version while ignoring all conflicting 2e versions.
Ziks are kreen, an offshoot of the same race. Numerous passages in TKoA support this, by saying that "in many ways, Zik'Chil are throwbacks to ancient Kreen"
Which is spoken from the perspective of someone who is in the modern-day Athas, looking at the Zik-Chil, and making a guess about them, at the very least. That is not any kind of an "objective" viewpoint presented in TKoA.
Every single canonical reference in the 2E books either explicitly states or implies that Kreen and Rhulisti(and RebirthRaces) developed seperately. Their choices in weapons and difference in cultures supports this.
Never argued that the Kreen were a Rebirth Race, or had any connection whatsoever to the Rebirth races. The Rebirth Races involved Rhulisti and the Pristine Tower. The Nature-Benders were exiled from that region before the Rebirth took place, so the odds are very strong that the Nature-Benders were not affected by the Rebirth. They are completely separate, and distinct from the Rebirth.
Not to mention the fact that one is a race of BUGS and the other is a race of MAMMALS.
Given the history of Athas, in particular, the Rhulisti lifeshaping abilities, and the situation that the Rebirth itself caused, are you honestly going to think that line has any merit? When you have Pterran and Jozhal walking around, which are reptiles, but the Rhulisti were mammals?
Why does everything on Athas have to be about the Rhulisti?
Everything in Athas is not about the Rhulisti. That's an exaggeration.
Especially when there is absolutely no evidence to support it.
There is just as much evidence against it. The "evidence" against it, in this thread, is easily explained as coming from subjective points of view. That makes them not necessarily be 100% accurate. As is shown time and again by the confusion/conflicts within the source materials.
That's like saying that because only a few sources say that humans aren't descended from pinecones, that we should grab up the idea that we ARE descended from pinecones, and defend it tooth and nail, because even though logic, morphology and phenotype are sure evidence that we are NOT descended from pinecones, that's not enough evidence for us.
If the pinecones had the ability to alter a species' physiology on a considerably high level, and were noted in history for having such an ability, then I'd agree. Otherwise, your analogy fails on several points here, unfortunately.
I do believe one of the major points of having the Kreen present on Athas was to have at least one culture or race that followed their natural path, and weren't the descendants of the Yuuzhan-Hobbits of Tyr'Agi.
Once again, not arguing that the Kreen were related to the Rebirth. In fact, I personally have been arguing the completely opposite thing. I will argue that not every Rhulisti became a Rebirth race -- as is noted by the fact there are Halflings in existence today on Athas (both the jungle-feral kind, and the Rhul-Thaun). It is very interesting to note that the majority of the Halflings surviving today are along the outer edge of the Tablelands. The Rhul-Thaun were unaffected by the Pristine Tower, and are the closest examples of modern-day Rhulisti there are, and they live right on the Jagged Cliffs themselves. I'd say that gives pretty strong implications that the Pristine Tower had a very specific range to how it affected races, and a very strong possibility that anything outside that range was unaffected. The Nature-Benders would have been outside that range (having been exiled), and therefore were completely unaffected by the Rebirth.
Where were they exiled? Well, if memory serves, Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs suggests that the Jagged Cliffs were raised as a barrier set against the Nature-Benders, separating them from Tyragi. That would imply that they were, well, West of the Jagged Cliffs. And the Rhul-Thaun were set to being the guardians of the Cliffs, to ensure that the Nature-Benders stayed, well, exiled. Modern Rhul-Thaun primarily seem to be preventing Kreen incursions... is it merely coincidental that the two come from the same direction?
If the Nature-Benders were exiled to the West, and if the Kreen Empire lives in the lands of the West now, if the Nature-Benders were noted for being able to alter an existing species (but not being able to create something totally new), and the Zik-Chil of the Tohr-Kreen empire, which is noticeably different from other Kreen, in stature, size, and in key parts of their physiology, like their highly dexterous hands has the ability to alter an existing species (making the Zik-Trin), rather than creating anything new... is that just mere coincidence?
There is evidence in TKoA, which had been pointed out in this thread and others, that the Zik-Chil are not merely a subspecies of Kreen (if they were, would it not make sense that they'd be lumped together with the six subspecies of Tohr-Kreen, rather than kept separate, and apart from all of that like they are?). They are separate, and distinct, no more a subspecies than the Trin are (and the Trin are potentially an ancestor of the Kreen rather than a subspecies). They are often lumped together, but then even within the same sentence, at times, in that book, linked to the thri-kreen, but then separated from the thri-kreen. TKoA itself strongly suggests that the Genetic Memory, which the Kreen and Zik-Chil both strongly rely upon, is flawed. They don't remember specifics as well as they used to, and things get hazy as millenia stretch out. So even their own memories of where the Zik-Chil came from is in doubt.
The whole point of my argument here is that what is known about the Kreen's past, leaves open a very likely possibility of them being influenced by the Nature-Benders. Things seem to fit together and "make sense" on this point. Is it 100% unquestionably proven? Nope. Nothing about Athasian history, especially distant history, could be.
Where were they exiled? Well, if memory serves, Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs suggests that the Jagged Cliffs were raised as a barrier set against the Nature-Benders, separating them from Tyragi. That would imply that they were, well, West of the Jagged Cliffs.
WotJC, p. 25 - At the end of the Blue Age, the seas began to die. The death of Athas’s oceans was due to an accident. The inadvertent creation and release of a life-leaching brown plant caused the waters to recede. Thus, the Jagged Cliffs were born.
The jagged Cliffs are a direct result of the effort to kill off the Brown Tide. I'm searching further, but haven't found anything stating that it was meant to be a barrier. It seems to be a natural geological formation, like the edge of a continental plate or something.
WotJC, p. 28 -
Nevertheless, the rhul-thaun gained some information from brave explorers and captured raiders, and soon they developed the idea that it was their responsibility to
defend the rest of the world to the south and east from the incursions of the thrikreen. Windrider patrols watch the edge of the swamp closely for kreen (as the rhulthaun
call them) raiders and spies.
Here, it is stated that they threat from the West they defend against is Kreen, and nowhere that I've read so far says that the nature benders when West of the Jagged Cliffs.
Upon further research, i've found that Nature-Benders are not even mentioned in WotJC. If anyone finds any reference to them in there, please post a page number, or quote the text.
I like the isea Terminous had of changing the favoured class of Zik-Chil from cleric to Psion and giving them Psychometabolic powers to bump them up to a full CR 8 critter.
That works if we presume that the ZC didn't start messing with their nature bending or whatever you want to call it until the Green Age.
If we go with the other ideas that Terminous and I were talking about above, then Athasian bard would probably be the best favored class, since it's the best knowledge repository, secret-keeper class.
That works if we presume that the ZC didn't start messing with their nature bending or whatever you want to call it until the Green Age.
If we go with the other ideas that Terminous and I were talking about above, then Athasian bard would probably be the best favored class, since it's the best knowledge repository, secret-keeper class.
I'd like to go with the idea that when the Green Age began, the Zik-Chil began enhancing their natural enzymatic manipulation abilities with Psionics. Previous to that, it could have been something similar to an Athasian bard. But I think in the current age, Psion (officially) and Erudite(implied, cuz its not OGC) would be the best choice. Previous to the advent of Psionics, it could have even been Rogue or even Fighter. I just can't picture a Zik-Chil singing and playing a lute
I'd like to go with the idea that when the Green Age began, the Zik-Chil began enhancing their natural enzymatic manipulation abilities with Psionics. Previous to that, it could have been something similar to an Athasian bard. But I think in the current age, Psion (officially) and Erudite(implied, cuz its not OGC) would be the best choice.
Again, few skill points would hamstring them in a practice that requires a huge skill investment.
I just can't picture a Zik-Chil singing and playing a lute
Bard stuff would work with oratory as well as music, and "singing" could include insect sounds. Could you picture a Zik-Chil making some grasshopper like screeching in order to fascinate its victim into sitting still for a procedure?
I just felt the urge to say - this thread has become remarkably civilized, cohesive and productive. I'm glad we all got back to the topic at hand, rather than slinging mud at each other:D
Since recent posts address our work and actual arguments here, that was inevitable.
Again, few skill points would hamstring them in a practice that requires a huge skill investment.
Bard stuff would work with oratory as well as music, and "singing" could include insect sounds. Could you picture a Zik-Chil making some grasshopper like screeching in order to fascinate its victim into sitting still for a procedure?
I get it now. Cool! A level or two of Bard is all it would take, once the proper skills are class skills, the Zik'Chil is free to proceed a Psion if he so chooses, or equally in both. I REALLY like the idea of them using bug noise to make their victims cooperate. Freakin awesome!
I just felt the urge to say - this thread has become remarkably civilized, cohesive and productive. I'm glad we all got back to the topic at hand, rather than slinging mud at each other:D
Agreed!!!
AZAZEL
I'm actually thinking of something that would be kind of cool, I believe it's been discussed before - A Psionic Bard class. Perfect for how our Zik-Chil seems to be shaping up. Just substitute the Magic section (not the music) of the standard Bard class, and plug in the Psychic Warrior's power progression. Have their powers be drawn almost exclusively from the Psychometabolic, Telepathic and Psychokinetic disciplines, and we've got a class perfectly balanced and PERFECT for the Priests of Change!
Psychokinetic may not fit to well as standard bards can't use fireball like effects. You could create a psionic list of allowable powers though- just be careful what ones you add. I like the idea of a Psionic Athasian bard as the exitiing one seems weak- standard D&D bards really need their magic spells IMHO and I'm not sure the various additions for the Athasian bard equal the loss of spellcasting.
I'm actually thinking of something that would be kind of cool, I believe it's been discussed before - A Psionic Bard class. Perfect for how our Zik-Chil seems to be shaping up. Just substitute the Magic section (not the music) of the standard Bard class, and plug in the Psychic Warrior's power progression. Have their powers be drawn almost exclusively from the Psychometabolic, Telepathic and Psychokinetic disciplines, and we've got a class perfectly balanced and PERFECT for the Priests of Change!
Talk to Bruno -- that's all his baby.
I like the idea of a Psionic Athasian bard as the exitiing one seems weak- standard D&D bards really need their magic spells IMHO and I'm not sure the various additions for the Athasian bard equal the loss of spellcasting.
Bard/Psion is one of my favorite class combinations in Dark Sun.
Bard/Psion is one of my favorite class combinations in Dark Sun.
When we built the DS core, I wanted to have some sort of deal where psionics was one of the options for the Bard class, e.g. you could repeatedly use one "secrets" slot to gain one level in any psionics class that you had. IIRC the rules gurus said that "+1 manifester level" was "inapropriate for a base class" or something like that. So far it sounds like 4e is more flexible in that regard.
Check out the Kurnan Spymaster PrC in FFN, which works best with a Bard/Psion or Bard/Wilder base. The special prerequisite, "ability to use Suggestion," is worded to allow the use of the Barding suggestion ability as well as the telepathic power "suggestion." Empty Mind is a first level power, so a 3rd level Bard/1st level Wilder could take her first level in the Kurnan Spymaster PrC. Additionally, the PrC's levels stack with Bardic levels for purposes of the PrC's "Wisdom of the Drylanders" ability.
That works if we presume that the ZC didn't start messing with their nature bending or whatever you want to call it until the Green Age.
If we go with the other ideas that Terminous and I were talking about above, then Athasian bard would probably be the best favored class, since it's the best knowledge repository, secret-keeper class.
While not typically a favored class, the expert would also fit the bill for a knowledge base class.
While not typically a favored class, the expert would also fit the bill for a knowledge base class.
It would. But given the nature of what the Zic-Chil do, I think that Athasian Bard is a far better fit.
Consider:
Athasian bards are the unquestioned masters of oral tradition and forgotten lore, but rather than sharing their lore with whoever will listen, Athasian bards guard their secrets as jealously as the sorcerer-kings harbor their water and iron. Athasian bards may sell information to the highest bidder; they peddle their services and the fruits of their knowledge, but trade secrets are what give bards an edge on the uninitiated. Bards would
rather die than reveal these secrets.
Bards have as many skill points as an expert, and have all of the class skills that a zic-chil nature bending political manipulator would need:
Appraise (Int), Balance (Dex), Bluff (Cha), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Decipher Script (Int), Diplomacy (Cha), Disguise (Cha), Escape Artist (Dex), Forgery (Int), Gather Information (Cha), Heal (Wis), Hide (Dex), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Knowledge (all skills, taken individually)(Int), Listen (Wis), Move Silently (Dex), Perform (Cha), Profession (Wis), Ride (Dex), Search (Int), Sense Motive (Wis), Sleight of Hand(Dex), Speak Language (None), Tumble (Dex), Use Magic Device (Cha, Exclusive), Use Psionic Device (Cha), Use Rope (Dex).
Can you think of any skill not on that class list that a zic-chil nature bending political manipulator would want? If so, then the Versatile trade secret takes care of that. There may be another case worth making an exception for the fact that favorered classes are PC classes, but in this case, I'm not sure what Expert brings to the mix that bard doesn't -- except for ease of preparation and NPC class. And ZC seem advanced and spooky enough to warrant a PC class, methinks.
The coolheaded trade secret and the Mental Resistance, Quick Thinking, and Slippery Mind bard abilities also work nicely with these cold emperor-manipulating out of sight sociopaths.
Edited to add: The Bardic music abilities like fascination, charm and suggestion, are also a good ZC fit when you consider implementing them with natural insect buzzings. As Terminus said,
I REALLY like the idea of them using bug noise to make their victims cooperate. Freakin awesome!
It would. But given the nature of what the Zic-Chil do, I think that Athasian Bard is a far better fit.
Consider:
Bards have as many skill points as an expert, and have all of the class skills that a zic-chil nature bending political manipulator would need:
Can you think of any skill not on that class list that a zic-chil nature bending political manipulator would want? If so, then the Versatile trade secret takes care of that. There may be another case worth making an exception for the fact that favorered classes are PC classes, but in this case, I'm not sure what Expert brings to the mix that bard doesn't -- except for ease of preparation and NPC class. And ZC seem advanced and spooky enough to warrant a PC class, methinks.
The coolheaded trade secret and the Mental Resistance, Quick Thinking, and Slippery Mind bard abilities also work nicely with these cold emperor-manipulating out of sight sociopaths.
Alright, I think I'm sold. Athasian bard is an excellent fit when spun like this.
In the ZC description should be found an adaptive fluff text that turns the bard's standard fluff on it's heels and spins it a couple of times.
Well, the tablelands bards, that is. Nice thing about that class, it provides a wide-range of possible story options, and potential backgrounds.
As with so many other things on Athas, bards are a feral, twisted version of those found on other worlds. Purveyors of pleasure, the ears of diverse patrons, flitting in the shadows of the roughest broy dens and the perfumed atriums of the nobility with equal ease. Masters of intrigue and information brokers whose smiles and honeyed words hide wicked barbs, glinting with poison.
So, not exactly your vanilla high fantasy bard
I've never identified with the idea of an Athasian bard being anything like one from other worlds. I see them as usually quite selfish, gathering information, and eliminating possible leaks/problems when they arise. They are willing to provide the means for others to do the same (with poisons), but explaining the safety precautions of said poison is extra. The stories they tell, they water down considerably, the real information they keep to themselves, and may be persuaded to go into more detail at the right price. Sort of a cross between an information broker, an assassin/spy, a theif,and a storyteller. I tend to believe they are not typically very "nice" people, they are always out for themselves, even when they put on a face to pretend to be nice, they are still looking for a particular angle.
Well, the tablelands bards, that is. Nice thing about that class, it provides a wide-range of possible story options, and potential backgrounds.
I think that you've put your finger on it when you described the core idea of the Athasian bard as an secret-hoarder that only trafficks in the less precious secrets and keeps the biggest secrets from the world. That idea is broad enough to cover the typical Tyr Region bard, who tends away from goodness and law, but it could also cover other cultures of bard, e.g. the lawful knowledge hoarders such as the life-shapers or the Zic-Chil, or the good healers of Kurn (see the adventures related to the mulbirth drug in FFN). As a core class, the bard should be have an array of stereotypes based on alignment. The 3 types discussed above are no different from each other than a lawful good wizard is different from a lawful evil or chaotic neutral wizard.