http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=14033699#post14033699
Havard
Some of us are pushing the idea over here:
It wouldn't work. We are too few to be a market, and even if we were enough, there are so many flavors of Mystara that it would be impossible to do something that would be good for everyone -- I, e.g. am not that interested in "Master Set" Mystara, many others are not interested in Red Steel, etc.
Also, near everyone who has some interest in Mystara has already the Gazetteers, and it would be impractical to produce something better than those.
It is likely that similar problems would plague a fan effort -- as it happened with 3e. All in all, the conversion effort is generally not so large that it cannot be taken over by a single person, which means that everyone is usually better off doing his own conversion to whatever rules system he uses than having to agree with others -- usually reducing the overall value of the work for each of the people involved...
I don't sound too optimistic, do I? ;)
True, but it is fun to talk about it with non-Mystara fans and try to clear up some common misconceptions...like the one that Mystara is bland...
It also opened up our forum here to people that didn't know it existed. I have to admit, I am really surprised how many people liked, and miss, the good ol' Known World. Plus, reading that thread gave me a few ideas to explore...
I don't sound too optimistic, do I? ;)
Hehe Agathokles, I have known you too long to be surprised by your response
Still, it is good to have someone to pull us dreamers to the ground every now and then. Ofcourse, you are probably right with regards of a full relaunch of Mystara, or even a single sourcebook dedicated to our setting. As Steven and Hugin have pointed out however, there are other goals with discussions like this. Spreading awareness of our setting and our forum is one of them. There are alot of people out there who have played in Mystara at one point. Likely, there are also others who are curious about the world. As we are a small group, newcomers are always welcome.
It wouldn't work. We are too few to be a market, and even if we were enough, there are so many flavors of Mystara that it would be impossible to do something that would be good for everyone -- I, e.g. am not that interested in "Master Set" Mystara, many others are not interested in Red Steel, etc.
I think the main advantage of any new supplements would also be to attract new people. A potential problem is the creation of schismas: "Do you prefer Gaz Mystara or 4e Mystara?", but I think we are such a friendly bunch that this would only lead to interesting discussions, not driving anyone away.
Also, near everyone who has some interest in Mystara has already the Gazetteers, and it would be impractical to produce something better than those.
I agree. It is wonderful that most of those are now available on pdf. Id love to know how much those pdfs sell. As shown in the referenced thread, an alternative to attempting to do AC1000 Mystara better than the gazetteers would be to do something different. A different era could be one alternative. Focusing on a different part of the world could be another (though a different era would be more useful IMO.)
It is likely that similar problems would plague a fan effort -- as it happened with 3e. All in all, the conversion effort is generally not so large that it cannot be taken over by a single person, which means that everyone is usually better off doing his own conversion to whatever rules system he uses than having to agree with others -- usually reducing the overall value of the work for each of the people involved...
This would be a point, but I think you are underestemating the value of having someone elses conversions to use as a starting point, whether those conversions are done by WotC or fans. It is easier to modify than to start from scratch.
Even if Mystara doesnt have a chance of getting its own sourcebook, I would still like to see support for Mystara on Wizards Insider or even references to it in sourcebooks. I posted over at the Dragon forum making a suggestion to make Campaign Classics into a monthy feature rather than a theme for certain months. Obviously Mystara would not always make it, but perhaps it would be nice if we'd get an article every now and then or an adventure. Ofcourse this was nicer when they were in print than when they are just electronic files that we can make ourselves...
Havard
It also opened up our forum here to people that didn't know it existed. I have to admit, I am really surprised how many people liked, and miss, the good ol' Known World. Plus, reading that thread gave me a few ideas to explore...
there has been a couple more people sign up for the update reminder service on the Vaults in the last few days too ...
This would be a point, but I think you are underestemating the value of having someone elses conversions to use as a starting point, whether those conversions are done by WotC or fans. It is easier to modify than to start from scratch.
You'll always have something else to use as a starting point -- generic stuff or material designed for other campaigns: I, e.g., used Red Steel and Al Qadim material for my own KW AD&D conversion.
Even if Mystara doesnt have a chance of getting its own sourcebook, I would still like to see support for Mystara on Wizards Insider or even references to it in sourcebooks. I posted over at the Dragon forum making a suggestion to make Campaign Classics into a monthy feature rather than a theme for certain months. Obviously Mystara would not always make it, but perhaps it would be nice if we'd get an article every now and then or an adventure. Ofcourse this was nicer when they were in print than when they are just electronic files that we can make ourselves...
I doubt that Mystara will ever make it. It did in Paizo's Dragon once in a while, and the prospects are not necessarily better with the new edition -- I think that depends on the marketing policies for campaign settings. E.g., if WotC went for a shorter support (a reasonable move, as the core book of any setting tends to sell higher than supplements), then they might need even more Dragon space to support FR or Eberron (or whatever other campaign settings they choose to publish).
Also, Mystara has the problem of not being a very focused setting -- it does have a lot of very focused subsettings (SC for "Supers" and swashbuckling, HW for Pulp, Myoshima for Oriental furry fantasy), but as a whole it is quite general purpose.
So, there's no incentive to support it, because support spent on KW would be better used (from a marketing PoV) on generic stuff, while the subsettings are very difficult to handle without the main setting (why speaking of the ancient cultures of Mystara when you know nothing of the modern ones?)
So, while, say, Ravenloft has some probability of being published (maybe as an appendix of a generic horror-themed rules book), Mystara doesn't have a similar opportunity (note that Greyhawk has a similar problem, now that it is not anymore the implicit setting).
GP
You'll always have something else to use as a starting point -- generic stuff or material designed for other campaigns: I, e.g., used Red Steel and Al Qadim material for my own KW AD&D conversion.
Yeah, but the more the better, eh?
I doubt that Mystara will ever make it. It did in Paizo's Dragon once in a while, and the prospects are not necessarily better with the new edition -- I think that depends on the marketing policies for campaign settings. E.g., if WotC went for a shorter support (a reasonable move, as the core book of any setting tends to sell higher than supplements), then they might need even more Dragon space to support FR or Eberron (or whatever other campaign settings they choose to publish).
This is possible. However, space should not really be an issue, now that the whole thing is internet based. Its a question of submissions as well though. The main reason for optimism is the sign that WotC with 4e are reevaluating their policy on support of multiple settings. Their explicit poliy will now be one new setting each year, starting with FR next year. Obviously Mystara isn't on top of this list, but it has also been stated that there other worlds may find support on Wizards Insider etc.
Also, Mystara has the problem of not being a very focused setting -- it does have a lot of very focused subsettings (SC for "Supers" and swashbuckling, HW for Pulp, Myoshima for Oriental furry fantasy), but as a whole it is quite general purpose.
So, there's no incentive to support it, because support spent on KW would be better used (from a marketing PoV) on generic stuff, while the subsettings are very difficult to handle without the main setting (why speaking of the ancient cultures of Mystara when you know nothing of the modern ones?)
So, while, say, Ravenloft has some probability of being published (maybe as an appendix of a generic horror-themed rules book), Mystara doesn't have a similar opportunity (note that Greyhawk has a similar problem, now that it is not anymore the implicit setting).
Also a fair point. I think the whole setting could be launched as a "pulp swashbuckling setting", but this would diverge somewhat from how TSR/WotC have marketed Mystara in the past. This would mean a shifted focus to fast pased action, sky ships, exploration of other worlds and super powers. Whether this would please the majority of the existing fan base is another question. I agree that the main problem for both Greyhawk and Mystara is that we fall under the shadow of the FR. Greyhawk has the advantage over us of being Gygax' setting and the original D&D setting.
Our chance of success IMO would rely on slipping through the cracks, perhaps with help of enthusiasts within the corporate sector. This would mean that we won't be seeing anything major, but perhaps drops every now and then to remind others that we exist and perhaps draw people here. Unless WotC decides to relaunch all of its settings, perhaps as a "Worlds of D&D" book line presenting one or two settings in each book.
Sidenote: One thing I have been thinking about lately is how regrettable it was that the Mystara 2E and Birthright projects were not joined at an early state. Most of the ideas behind Birthright could have been used for Mystara and would have been quite appropriate IMO, perhaps building on CM1 and using Norwold as its default setting.
Havard
Out of settings that WotC might want to redesign and publish, Eberron and Forgotten Realms are gimmes not just for the market but for the writing. Finding someone who can write Dragonlance is also easy, and Ravenloft and Planescape are probably also solid targets. Mystara... not so much. Mike McArtor and James Mishler are probably the closest candidates we've got, and neither of them is exactly 'A'-list.
So any suggestions for WotC to bring back Mystara are going to be an uphill battle, and even if successful might just end up bringing back something as close to the classic vision of the setting as "Shadows of the Spider Moon".
Just something to chew on...
This is possible. However, space should not really be an issue, now that the whole thing is internet based.
It might be a question of manpower.
The main reason for optimism is the sign that WotC with 4e are reevaluating their policy on support of multiple settings. Their explicit poliy will now be one new setting each year, starting with FR next year.
That's why I say that Dragon will be fairly busy supporting those worlds.
However, multiple settings does not mean an unlimited number of settings -- just that there will be more settings than in 3e (which only had 2).
Obviously Mystara isn't on top of this list
Well, it will be FR for the first year, then probably Eberron, or they might decide to launch a new setting that better fits with the implied setting of 4e.
However, Eberron will be supported. Ravenloft has good chances, IMO, as does Dragonlance.
Given that an edition seems to last about 4 years, there might be no space for other settings before the next rules revision.
Sidenote: One thing I have been thinking about lately is how regrettable it was that the Mystara 2E and Birthright projects were not joined at an early state. Most of the ideas behind Birthright could have been used for Mystara and would have been quite appropriate IMO, perhaps building on CM1 and using Norwold as its default setting.
Birthright rules cover more or less the same concepts of the Companion Set, but the settings are very different -- Birthright focuses on a small scale, low magic setting (with magic being distant, dangerous and fairy), Mystara is larger scaled (with world wars, high level wizards and commonplace magic).
Some elements of Birthright, though, are quite appropriate in Mystara -- Birthright Paladins are more similar to Mystaran Paladins than others, the Awnsweghlien are similar to the Monster Rulers (though they are actually based on the Paragon monsters from AD&D DM's Option) and the "Secrets of" line was likely modeled on the Gazetteers (though obviously oriented at the domain ruler rather than the average adventurer).
BTW, Tribes of the Heartless Wastes and The Rjurik Highlands are good sources for Norwold, as is King of the Giantdowns.
GP
and Ravenloft and Planescape are probably also solid targets.
Actually, it is not the case for Planescape -- not only many of the original authors are not anymore with WotC, but the setting is not one WotC seems interested in re-publishing. They will at some point put out yet another Manual of the Planes, but I don't think they will recover the Planescape concept itself.
Birthright would have more chances -- solid setting, a theme that will need to be explored (mass combat rules), no need of a large number of books (it's a small setting) but large amount of new rules required (as said, mass combat rules, but also naval battle rules, domain management rules, divine bloodline rules), and the main author is one of 4e developers, IIRC.
Something important to note about any setting redesign, that a whole lot of online petitions miss: It's not just enough to answer the question "Who's going to buy it?". It's also vitally important to answer the question "Who's going to write it?". There can be ten thousand people swearing a blood oath to buy an RPG supplement, and none of it matters if WotC doesn't have a writer they can trust and appreciate to make the product real.
Professional writers should be able to write anything, shouldn't they? Well, perhaps not quite, but see below:
Out of settings that WotC might want to redesign and publish, Eberron and Forgotten Realms are gimmes not just for the market but for the writing. Finding someone who can write Dragonlance is also easy, and Ravenloft and Planescape are probably also solid targets. Mystara... not so much. Mike McArtor and James Mishler are probably the closest candidates we've got, and neither of them is exactly 'A'-list.
We need Bruce Heard back! I hope he retires from his computer firm or whatever he is doing now soon and devotes himself full-time to restoring Mystara.
So any suggestions for WotC to bring back Mystara are going to be an uphill battle, and even if successful might just end up bringing back something as close to the classic vision of the setting as "Shadows of the Spider Moon".
Just something to chew on...
This is ofcourse an important point. It would be sad if we got Mystara back, but a Mystara that didn't appeal at all to this community. And I mean worse than when 2e Mystara was launched.
Again, I am rather hoping for articles every now and then in Dragon than a fully fledged launch, which we know wont happen anyway. For articles, finding writers is easier as well. I mean we can just keep doing what we are doing. Wouldnt it be nice to see some of the names from these boards on articles in Dragon, keeping the same quality as the best from Pandius, but with professional art and layout? And that small ring of officialness that the WotC logo on top would bring and the attention that would bring from non-core Mystarans?
Havard
Given that an edition seems to last about 4 years, there might be no space for other settings before the next rules revision.
I'd say editions last 9-10 years, though we may see something equivalent to 3.5 after 4. I expect things will go more smoothly this time around though, and that the 4 year thing wouldnt neccessarily mean that we'd have to buy all the books over again (assuming we buy them in the first place).
Birthright rules cover more or less the same concepts of the Companion Set, but the settings are very different -- Birthright focuses on a small scale, low magic setting (with magic being distant, dangerous and fairy), Mystara is larger scaled (with world wars, high level wizards and commonplace magic).
Some elements of Birthright, though, are quite appropriate in Mystara -- Birthright Paladins are more similar to Mystaran Paladins than others, the Awnsweghlien are similar to the Monster Rulers (though they are actually based on the Paragon monsters from AD&D DM's Option) and the "Secrets of" line was likely modeled on the Gazetteers (though obviously oriented at the domain ruler rather than the average adventurer).
I was ofcourse referring to the broad concepts behind Birthright, specifically Dominions and War which have always been a part of the Mystara setting and could have been pushed to the front. Had they wished to make it more low-magic, they could also have emphathized this as a result of WotI.
BTW, Tribes of the Heartless Wastes and The Rjurik Highlands are good sources for Norwold, as is King of the Giantdowns.
Interesting. I will keep my eyes open for those then!
Havard
I'd say editions last 9-10 years, though we may see something equivalent to 3.5 after 4. I expect things will go more smoothly this time around though, and that the 4 year thing wouldnt neccessarily mean that we'd have to buy all the books over again (assuming we buy them in the first place).
Actually, 3e went from 2000 to 2007, for a total of 8 years, divided in two parts by the re-release of core books. Past editions lasted longer, but they also led to cash problems, so they shouldn't provide a good estimate.
While the idea of core books 2, 3, etc. is good for keeping sales more constant, it's unlikely that WotC will be able to put out more than four PHBs and (especially) DMGs (MMs are another matter) before having to reset everything, or at least go for another "half edition".
A DMG or PHB 5 cannot restate the basics, and while new classes may be devised, after 4 PHBs you'll have 35-40 base classes (plus a possibly larger number of prestige classes, if these will be present in 4e).
Since the basic game is likely to offer more customization options than base 3e, there'll be even less room for other class concepts.
DMGs will be even more difficult, since you can't simply put more classes in there, and the basics need to go into DMG 1. A DMG 2 is still feasible -- some optional rules, some environment-specific rules. A DMG 3 becomes difficult to envision -- you'll need to cover less immediate topics, maybe dominion rules or mass combat. In this sense, BECMI was the immediate predecessor of the 4e strategy, but the books were much smaller, and there were only 5 (because at that point every level of play had been covered).