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Thamasku?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
Zardnaar
Oct 10, 2007 5:09:21 Odd question about Thamasku? How did it remain hidden in the Green age? Its not that far from Tyr/Urik and it was alot easier to trave back then. WOuld Thamasku have had limited trade with the rest of the world but Rajaat banned his champions fomr going there but it seems impossable they could have remained undetected for so long.
#2
rikkiwalker
Oct 10, 2007 8:05:25
Odd question about Thamasku? How did it remain hidden in the Green age? Its not that far from Tyr/Urik and it was alot easier to trave back then. WOuld Thamasku have had limited trade with the rest of the world but Rajaat banned his champions fomr going there but it seems impossable they could have remained undetected for so long.

I think the Pyreen have been protecting them all this time. It mentions in the jagged cliffs supp that the pyreen have been watching over them since the rebirth and have misdirected anyone who heads that way.
#3
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Oct 10, 2007 10:14:53
Odd question about Thamasku? How did it remain hidden in the Green age? Its not that far from Tyr/Urik and it was alot easier to trave back then. WOuld Thamasku have had limited trade with the rest of the world but Rajaat banned his champions fomr going there but it seems impossable they could have remained undetected for so long.

Rajaat protected it from his Champions. He kept Thamasku hidden from the Champions and their Armies, so that his beloved Halflings would survive.

They were a very isolationistic, they weren't prone to going outside their little world, and the Pyreen were also pretty keen on watching over them. They basically had just about everything powerful enough to keep them separate from the rest of the world, keeping them separate from the rest of the world.
#4
thebrax
Oct 10, 2007 18:20:48 I'm not sure why the Pyreen would have wanted to keep Thamasku isolated.

But the fact that Thamasku did remain isolated, and the fact that the Wind Mages stronghold in Dragon's Crown was considered far off and isolated suggests to me that the area now called the Hinterlands wasn't too thoroughly civilized during the Green Age. My guess is that the areas south and east of Thamasku remained overrun with Wemics or some other Rebirth-race superpredator. (for purposes of this discussion, by Superpredator I mean a sentient nomadic hunting people that were capable of protecting their lands from encroaching settlers -- I'll assume they were wemics below though they could have been something else). See here for discussion of Superpredators and of other ideas about the course of civilized settlement during the Green Age.

Odd question about Thamasku? How did it remain hidden in the Green age? Its not that far from Tyr/Urik and it was alot easier to trave back then. WOuld Thamasku have had limited trade with the rest of the world but Rajaat banned his champions fomr going there but it seems impossable they could have remained undetected for so long.

The vertical nature of the halfling cliff-communities would make them less of a threat or target to wemics. The wemics would probably just leave the halflings alone since their vertical cities don't occupy huntable praerie and since the halflings don't interfere with the Wemic hunt. And protected by cliffs on one side and wemic-occupied praerie on the other side, Thamasku could have remained a secret.
#5
Sysane
Oct 11, 2007 7:32:50 This is a stretch with no supporting evidence behind it, but it could be that Rajaat placed powerful psionic enchantments around Thamasku which prevented anyone from finding it. The spell wouldn't have been anything drastic. It may have simply caused anyone who came to close to the halfling settlement to subconsciously circumvent the area and pass it by completely.
#6
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Oct 11, 2007 7:59:44 I tends to think of psionic enchantments as a feature of the Advanced Beings, and Rajaat wasn't an "Advanced Being", he is something else. He wouldn't need a psionic enchantment.
#7
Sysane
Oct 11, 2007 8:49:42 I see where you're coming from, but disagree that Rajaat wouldn't be able cast psionic enchantments. His "something-else-ness" obviously made him more powerful than an AB as shown in the last book of the PP, The Cerulean Storm. Not needing to cast enchantments is not necessarily the same as not having the ability to cast them.
#8
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Oct 11, 2007 8:53:43 Not arguing that point. I just think that to him, a psionic enchantment would be like a Ph.D needing to use 3rd-grade handwriting classes. It is somewhat beneath him.
#9
Sysane
Oct 11, 2007 9:05:07
Not arguing that point. I just think that to him, a psionic enchantment would be like a Ph.D needing to use 3rd-grade handwriting classes. It is somewhat beneath him.

I agree that would have been the case for post imprisionment Rajaat, but not pre imprisonment.

When Rajaat was freed he had evidently undergone some sort of transformation while trapped in the Hollow as pointed out by either Sacha or Wyan (I can't recall which right now).
#10
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Oct 11, 2007 10:34:12 Still, when I envision Rajaat's power with magic, since he invented/created arcane magic, he is a Pyreen (and thus psionic), the typical rules for magic simply don't apply. I believe the only way the Champions ever were able to imprison him in the first place, was they caught him completely off-guard. Yes, he underwent a transformation in the Hollow, but at the same time, I believethat "psionic enchantments" would have been beneath him (and I am not using the term "psionic enchantment" as the 2e term was used, that is closer to "epic spells" in 3/3.5e terminology; the "psionic enchantments" I refer to are things that are exclusive to advanced beings, which lets them mix magic and psionics together, bolstering both with it -- what is designed into the dragon & avangion rules Athas.org has developed).

I'd figure that for Rajaat (and part of this is his insanity speaking as well), "Psionic Enchantments" would be something he'd se as little more than children's toys. Sure, he can do it, but I don't see himself stooping to that level, he has a far more interesting and effective array of abilities at his disposal. I'd see him as simply being able to weave together whatever is necessary to make a new spell, however he wanted it, on the fly simply by willing it to be so. I would think he has no "spell list", if he wants a spell that does something, he makes it on the spot, instantaneously. This doesn't mean he's always aware of what's going on around him, however, and he has more than a little hubris, and is rather single-minded like any good extreme zealot/fanatic. He tends to underestimate anyone opposing him, and overestimating himself. Unfortunately, for the most part, he's pretty justified in that, but it leads him to making mistakes, like the ones which resulted in his imprisonment.
#11
thebrax
Oct 11, 2007 16:49:28 I don't know about instantly, Xlor; he did take an awful long time to develop arcane magic in the first place. And while I agree that Rajaat is err-prone and almost certainly hubristic, it's important to note that Rajaat differs strikingly from the legendary hubris figures of Earth mythology in that the defining characteristic of his personality is self-hatred projected outwards. Rajaat is not omniscient, not omnipotent, and I'm not seeing anything in the sources that shows him exerting power in a situation that he could not have prepared beforehand to exercise that power. For example, in RaFoaDK, when he reaches out and seizes control of the minds of multiple champions at the same time, that's hardly the same thing as say, reaching out and seizing control of the minds of multiple mind lords or of other epic beings that Rajaat had no prior relationship with.

To be sure, though, Rajaat is one very very strong dude, and almost certainly so powerful that it would not be worth our time to stat him out. But if we treat him as someone who can make up new epic spells on the fly, well, then a lot of the official backstory ceases to make any sense.
#12
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Oct 11, 2007 17:37:50
I don't know about instantly, Xlor; he did take an awful long time to develop arcane magic in the first place. And while I agree that Rajaat is err-prone and almost certainly hubristic, it's important to note that Rajaat differs strikingly from the legendary hubris figures of Earth mythology in that the defining characteristic of his personality is self-hatred projected outwards. Rajaat is not omniscient, not omnipotent, and I'm not seeing anything in the sources that shows him exerting power in a situation that he could not have prepared beforehand to exercise that power. For example, in RaFoaDK, when he reaches out and seizes control of the minds of multiple champions at the same time, that's hardly the same thing as say, reaching out and seizing control of the minds of multiple mind lords or of other epic beings that Rajaat had no prior relationship with.

To be sure, though, Rajaat is one very very strong dude, and almost certainly so powerful that it would not be worth our time to stat him out. But if we treat him as someone who can make up new epic spells on the fly, well, then a lot of the official backstory ceases to make any sense.

Good point. And yes, it is important to know that his hubris is a bit different from the run-of-the-mill variety, as his defining quality is his abject loathing and hatred of himself, who and what he is. This hatred is so great, he has turned to hating the process that could have made him the twisted being he is -- the Rebirth, and thus, everything related to the Rebirth...
#13
kael
Oct 13, 2007 9:25:07
Odd question about Thamasku? How did it remain hidden in the Green age? Its not that far from Tyr/Urik and it was alot easier to trave back then. WOuld Thamasku have had limited trade with the rest of the world but Rajaat banned his champions fomr going there but it seems impossable they could have remained undetected for so long.

If Thamasku was away from the lines of communication (rivers, coastline, etc.) it wouldn't be hard for the city to remain isolated. On top of that, if there was some sort of social or religious taboo against going near the Jagged Cliffs then the city could have gone completely undetected.

I'm not sure why the Pyreen would have wanted to keep Thamasku isolated.

In my personal campaign the Pyreen had a quasi-religious status among the elemental and druidic cults of the Green Age. They were a sort of combination saint/angel/wandering mystic who dabbled in all sorts of things. If one of them took an interest in preserving ancient halfling culture and requested that no one go into the area of Thamasku there would have been a lot of social pressure to conform to that request.
#14
thebrax
Oct 13, 2007 18:40:31 Well, Rajaat seemed to take that sort of interest, but the other pyreen, as peace bringers, seemed more inclined to increasing communication and understanding between the peoples, rather than deepening isolation.

Will's developed some interesting stuff on conflict between the pyreen; I hope he rejoins the discussion.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 Zardnaar Oct 10, 2007 5:09:21	Odd question about Thamasku? How did it remain hidden in the Green age? Its not that far from Tyr/Urik and it was alot easier to trave back then. WOuld Thamasku have had limited trade with the rest of the world but Rajaat banned his champions fomr going there but it seems impossable they could have remained undetected for so long.
#2 rikkiwalker Oct 10, 2007 8:05:25	Odd question about Thamasku? How did it remain hidden in the Green age? Its not that far from Tyr/Urik and it was alot easier to trave back then. WOuld Thamasku have had limited trade with the rest of the world but Rajaat banned his champions fomr going there but it seems impossable they could have remained undetected for so long. I think the Pyreen have been protecting them all this time. It mentions in the jagged cliffs supp that the pyreen have been watching over them since the rebirth and have misdirected anyone who heads that way.
#3 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Oct 10, 2007 10:14:53	Odd question about Thamasku? How did it remain hidden in the Green age? Its not that far from Tyr/Urik and it was alot easier to trave back then. WOuld Thamasku have had limited trade with the rest of the world but Rajaat banned his champions fomr going there but it seems impossable they could have remained undetected for so long. Rajaat protected it from his Champions. He kept Thamasku hidden from the Champions and their Armies, so that his beloved Halflings would survive. They were a very isolationistic, they weren't prone to going outside their little world, and the Pyreen were also pretty keen on watching over them. They basically had just about everything powerful enough to keep them separate from the rest of the world, keeping them separate from the rest of the world.
#4 thebrax Oct 10, 2007 18:20:48	I'm not sure why the Pyreen would have wanted to keep Thamasku isolated. But the fact that Thamasku did remain isolated, and the fact that the Wind Mages stronghold in Dragon's Crown was considered far off and isolated suggests to me that the area now called the Hinterlands wasn't too thoroughly civilized during the Green Age. My guess is that the areas south and east of Thamasku remained overrun with Wemics or some other Rebirth-race superpredator. (for purposes of this discussion, by Superpredator I mean a sentient nomadic hunting people that were capable of protecting their lands from encroaching settlers -- I'll assume they were wemics below though they could have been something else). See here for discussion of Superpredators and of other ideas about the course of civilized settlement during the Green Age. Odd question about Thamasku? How did it remain hidden in the Green age? Its not that far from Tyr/Urik and it was alot easier to trave back then. WOuld Thamasku have had limited trade with the rest of the world but Rajaat banned his champions fomr going there but it seems impossable they could have remained undetected for so long. The vertical nature of the halfling cliff-communities would make them less of a threat or target to wemics. The wemics would probably just leave the halflings alone since their vertical cities don't occupy huntable praerie and since the halflings don't interfere with the Wemic hunt. And protected by cliffs on one side and wemic-occupied praerie on the other side, Thamasku could have remained a secret.
#5 Sysane Oct 11, 2007 7:32:50	This is a stretch with no supporting evidence behind it, but it could be that Rajaat placed powerful psionic enchantments around Thamasku which prevented anyone from finding it. The spell wouldn't have been anything drastic. It may have simply caused anyone who came to close to the halfling settlement to subconsciously circumvent the area and pass it by completely.
#6 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Oct 11, 2007 7:59:44	I tends to think of psionic enchantments as a feature of the Advanced Beings, and Rajaat wasn't an "Advanced Being", he is something else. He wouldn't need a psionic enchantment.
#7 Sysane Oct 11, 2007 8:49:42	I see where you're coming from, but disagree that Rajaat wouldn't be able cast psionic enchantments. His "something-else-ness" obviously made him more powerful than an AB as shown in the last book of the PP, The Cerulean Storm. Not needing to cast enchantments is not necessarily the same as not having the ability to cast them.
#8 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Oct 11, 2007 8:53:43	Not arguing that point. I just think that to him, a psionic enchantment would be like a Ph.D needing to use 3rd-grade handwriting classes. It is somewhat beneath him.
#9 Sysane Oct 11, 2007 9:05:07	Not arguing that point. I just think that to him, a psionic enchantment would be like a Ph.D needing to use 3rd-grade handwriting classes. It is somewhat beneath him. I agree that would have been the case for post imprisionment Rajaat, but not pre imprisonment. When Rajaat was freed he had evidently undergone some sort of transformation while trapped in the Hollow as pointed out by either Sacha or Wyan (I can't recall which right now).
#10 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Oct 11, 2007 10:34:12	Still, when I envision Rajaat's power with magic, since he invented/created arcane magic, he is a Pyreen (and thus psionic), the typical rules for magic simply don't apply. I believe the only way the Champions ever were able to imprison him in the first place, was they caught him completely off-guard. Yes, he underwent a transformation in the Hollow, but at the same time, I believethat "psionic enchantments" would have been beneath him (and I am not using the term "psionic enchantment" as the 2e term was used, that is closer to "epic spells" in 3/3.5e terminology; the "psionic enchantments" I refer to are things that are exclusive to advanced beings, which lets them mix magic and psionics together, bolstering both with it -- what is designed into the dragon & avangion rules Athas.org has developed). I'd figure that for Rajaat (and part of this is his insanity speaking as well), "Psionic Enchantments" would be something he'd se as little more than children's toys. Sure, he can do it, but I don't see himself stooping to that level, he has a far more interesting and effective array of abilities at his disposal. I'd see him as simply being able to weave together whatever is necessary to make a new spell, however he wanted it, on the fly simply by willing it to be so. I would think he has no "spell list", if he wants a spell that does something, he makes it on the spot, instantaneously. This doesn't mean he's always aware of what's going on around him, however, and he has more than a little hubris, and is rather single-minded like any good extreme zealot/fanatic. He tends to underestimate anyone opposing him, and overestimating himself. Unfortunately, for the most part, he's pretty justified in that, but it leads him to making mistakes, like the ones which resulted in his imprisonment.
#11 thebrax Oct 11, 2007 16:49:28	I don't know about instantly, Xlor; he did take an awful long time to develop arcane magic in the first place. And while I agree that Rajaat is err-prone and almost certainly hubristic, it's important to note that Rajaat differs strikingly from the legendary hubris figures of Earth mythology in that the defining characteristic of his personality is self-hatred projected outwards. Rajaat is not omniscient, not omnipotent, and I'm not seeing anything in the sources that shows him exerting power in a situation that he could not have prepared beforehand to exercise that power. For example, in RaFoaDK, when he reaches out and seizes control of the minds of multiple champions at the same time, that's hardly the same thing as say, reaching out and seizing control of the minds of multiple mind lords or of other epic beings that Rajaat had no prior relationship with. To be sure, though, Rajaat is one very very strong dude, and almost certainly so powerful that it would not be worth our time to stat him out. But if we treat him as someone who can make up new epic spells on the fly, well, then a lot of the official backstory ceases to make any sense.
#12 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Oct 11, 2007 17:37:50	I don't know about instantly, Xlor; he did take an awful long time to develop arcane magic in the first place. And while I agree that Rajaat is err-prone and almost certainly hubristic, it's important to note that Rajaat differs strikingly from the legendary hubris figures of Earth mythology in that the defining characteristic of his personality is self-hatred projected outwards. Rajaat is not omniscient, not omnipotent, and I'm not seeing anything in the sources that shows him exerting power in a situation that he could not have prepared beforehand to exercise that power. For example, in RaFoaDK, when he reaches out and seizes control of the minds of multiple champions at the same time, that's hardly the same thing as say, reaching out and seizing control of the minds of multiple mind lords or of other epic beings that Rajaat had no prior relationship with. To be sure, though, Rajaat is one very very strong dude, and almost certainly so powerful that it would not be worth our time to stat him out. But if we treat him as someone who can make up new epic spells on the fly, well, then a lot of the official backstory ceases to make any sense. Good point. And yes, it is important to know that his hubris is a bit different from the run-of-the-mill variety, as his defining quality is his abject loathing and hatred of himself, who and what he is. This hatred is so great, he has turned to hating the process that could have made him the twisted being he is -- the Rebirth, and thus, everything related to the Rebirth...
#13 kael Oct 13, 2007 9:25:07	Odd question about Thamasku? How did it remain hidden in the Green age? Its not that far from Tyr/Urik and it was alot easier to trave back then. WOuld Thamasku have had limited trade with the rest of the world but Rajaat banned his champions fomr going there but it seems impossable they could have remained undetected for so long. If Thamasku was away from the lines of communication (rivers, coastline, etc.) it wouldn't be hard for the city to remain isolated. On top of that, if there was some sort of social or religious taboo against going near the Jagged Cliffs then the city could have gone completely undetected. I'm not sure why the Pyreen would have wanted to keep Thamasku isolated. In my personal campaign the Pyreen had a quasi-religious status among the elemental and druidic cults of the Green Age. They were a sort of combination saint/angel/wandering mystic who dabbled in all sorts of things. If one of them took an interest in preserving ancient halfling culture and requested that no one go into the area of Thamasku there would have been a lot of social pressure to conform to that request.
#14 thebrax Oct 13, 2007 18:40:31	Well, Rajaat seemed to take that sort of interest, but the other pyreen, as peace bringers, seemed more inclined to increasing communication and understanding between the peoples, rather than deepening isolation. Will's developed some interesting stuff on conflict between the pyreen; I hope he rejoins the discussion.