Tyr’agi was built in a swamp “located in the hollow that would someday become the Tyr Valley.” Considering Tyr’s apparent elevation, that would mean the “ocean” covering the Tablelands would have been fairly shallow.
Some of the halflings tried to avoid the Brown Tide by fleeing to “great subterranean strongholds.” These strongholds are mentioned again as having survived into the Rebirth, but they lost the knowledge of nature manipulation.
The Pristine Tower was used to create plant life as well as animal life. This could mean the tower could be used to revitalized Athas.
Tyr, Urik, Ebe, Bodach, and Giustenal are mentioned as existing during the first part of the Green Age.
During the Green Age “an intricate series of cobblestone roads…connected one city to another.” Such a system would require either a great deal of cooperation among the cities, or some overarching organization with a lot of power and/or resources.
There was over four thousand years between Rajaat’s first discovery of the “principles of magic” and the beginning of the Cleansing Wars. I wonder what he was doing.
“A small group of Halflings still kept the old ways of the nature-masters…and decided to serve Rajaat as his personal guard.” The nature-masters supposedly respected all life and yet the members of this group were willing to ally themselves with a genocidal madman.
There was no champion dedicated to wiping out the gith.
Mental problems seem to be common among those champions who destroyed their assigned races (or at least believe to have). Nibenay (gnomes) lives as a recluse and is obsessive about completing his dragon transformation. Because of his radical change in personality, Oronis (lizard men) had what appears to have been a complete nervous breakdown. Abalach-Re’s (orcs) “incompetence” could be a sign of apathy brought on by depression. And, of course, Daskinor (goblins) needs no explanation.
The philosophical difference between preservers and defilers is similar to the one between the nature-masters and the nature-benders. One attempts to work with nature while the other sees nature as merely a means to power.
“The sorcerer-kings keep a few defilers on hand…these ‘court wizards’ are usually kept in secret and out of the public eye.” The people’s hatred of wizards is so great that even the SKs feel the need to hide their employment of defilers
And last, but certainly not least, two words: “silt pirates!”
Tyr’agi was built in a swamp “located in the hollow that would someday become the Tyr Valley.” Considering Tyr’s apparent elevation, that would mean the “ocean” covering the Tablelands would have been fairly shallow.
During the Blue Age the mountain ranges were islands, so Tyr's location "in a hollow" likely just means that it was just high enough to be above the actual sea and probably at the bottom of mountaintop water run-off.
Also, keep in mind that there's a 2-mile rift west of the mountains - so the Tablelands in general is constantly sloping up towards the west.
Some of the halflings tried to avoid the Brown Tide by fleeing to “great subterranean strongholds.” These strongholds are mentioned again as having survived into the Rebirth, but they lost the knowledge of nature manipulation.
There are - theoretically - halflings in suspended animation all over the place. You first see/hear about them in the Prism Pentad books.
The Pristine Tower was used to create plant life as well as animal life. This could mean the tower could be used to revitalized Athas.
...except that every time the PT has been used to do anything "major" it's drained the sun of enough energy that it changed star types. My guess is that revitalizing Athas would require too much power for the sun to handle.
Tyr, Urik, Ebe, Bodach, and Giustenal are mentioned as existing during the first part of the Green Age.
Most of the cities still around were settled back during the Green Age. It's mentioned somewhere that, when the Dragon went crazy, the Champions all took control of a city and boarded themselves in for the next 100 years, basically creating the city-state formula that continues into modern-day Athas.
During the Green Age “an intricate series of cobblestone roads…connected one city to another.” Such a system would require either a great deal of cooperation among the cities, or some overarching organization with a lot of power and/or resources.
There's also notes about this somewhere-or-another - the Green Age was quite civilized and pretty "technologically advanced", just with technology based on psionics rather than mechanics. They had psi-powered subway systems and plumbing, etc.
There was over four thousand years between Rajaat’s first discovery of the “principles of magic” and the beginning of the Cleansing Wars. I wonder what he was doing.
He was perfecting it, plotting out the CW, etc.
“A small group of Halflings still kept the old ways of the nature-masters…and decided to serve Rajaat as his personal guard.” The nature-masters supposedly respected all life and yet the members of this group were willing to ally themselves with a genocidal madman.
The nature-masters were in control of nature...and you could say "respected it" but you've also got to bear in mind that they did turn themselves into all the other races. I think by "kept the old ways" the book means that they believed in a world where halflings were the dominant race and in control of the rest of nature (thus, "nature-masters"), and if that was the case then getting rid of the rebirth Races would have been fine (in their mindset, at least).
There was no champion dedicated to wiping out the gith.
The gith didn't exist during the Cleansing Wars. In one of the adventures (Black Spine, I think) it's mentioned that the gith are the devolved offspring of githyanki who were "psi-bombed" by githzerazai (or was it the other way around?) at some point in time after the CW ended. I can't remember the specifics, but the gith are, basically, a New Race.
Mental problems seem to be common among those champions who destroyed their assigned races (or at least believe to have). Nibenay (gnomes) lives as a recluse and is obsessive about completing his dragon transformation. Because of his radical change in personality, Oronis (lizard men) had what appears to have been a complete nervous breakdown. Abalach-Re’s (orcs) “incompetence” could be a sign of apathy brought on by depression. And, of course, Daskinor (goblins) needs no explanation.
You can explain this in several ways, but my preferred one is that these are immortal beings who are basically the masters of Athas, with no real threats to their existence beyond the fear of Rajaat's return and each other. Think Lich or even Vampire ("woe is me" vampire, that is) - you just tend to get a little nutty after you've been doing pretty much the same thing for several thousand years straight, ya know? ;)
The philosophical difference between preservers and defilers is similar to the one between the nature-masters and the nature-benders. One attempts to work with nature while the other sees nature as merely a means to power.
Good point - never really thought of that before.
“The sorcerer-kings keep a few defilers on hand…these ‘court wizards’ are usually kept in secret and out of the public eye.” The people’s hatred of wizards is so great that even the SKs feel the need to hide their employment of defilers
Actually, I think it's more a matter of the defilers simply being too much of a risk to the city itself than it is a matter of the SK's worrying about what their subjects think - they already have an army of magic-wielding templars to control the city, so augmenting that with a bunch of power-hungry individuals who destroy what little plantlife there is whenever they cast just doesn't make much sense. On the other hand, most SK's keep Trees of Life near their palaces, not only for their own use but also so their court defilers can cast without fear of wiping out a bunch of plantlife. That right there is the second reason to keep them "secret and out of the public eye" - as long as they're casting from the confines of the SK's palace, drawing life from a nearby Tree of Life, no one even has to think about the fact that there are wizards about.
And, finally, there's the whole "secret police" aspect to court defilers - by keeping them scarce, when an SK sends one to "deal with a problem" it's that much more frightening to everyone - unlike the templars, when a defiler casts it's quite obvious, so to see a government-sanctioned defiler in action serves as a great reminder of the supreme power the SK holds over his subjects.
Of course some halflings chose to support Rajaat but its kinda like judging all humans by the action of the Nazis or whatever other group you want to single out. For the most part I think the Nature Masters were probably just like the majority of humans with fears, ambitions, and wanting to help out or contribute towards their civilization.
The Rebirth sounds nice but it is really a cataclysm/disaster for the Halfling culture and is really comparable to the fall of the Roman Empire, or perhaps the holocaust even. Their entire way of life was destroyed. And no surpises some of the survivors became extremists and joined Rajaat years later.
I've never erally understood the current belief forming here that the Nature Masters were racial supremeists etc. ...Of course some halflings chose to support Rajaat but its kinda like judging all humans by the action of the Nazis or whatever other group you want to single out. For the most part I think the Nature Masters were probably just like the majority of humans with fears, ambitions, and wanting to help out or contribute towards their civilization. ...Their entire way of life was destroyed. And no surpises some of the survivors became extremists and joined Rajaat years later.
I didn't mean for my "answer(s)" to be extremist like that - I meant what you just said, in that for some Rhulisti it would have been easy to "justify" siding with Rajaat based on...well...the reasons you just stated.
During the Blue Age the mountain ranges were islands, so Tyr's location "in a hollow" likely just means that it was just high enough to be above the actual sea and probably at the bottom of mountaintop water run-off.
Also, keep in mind that there's a 2-mile rift west of the mountains - so the Tablelands in general is constantly sloping up towards the west.
Even considering a general eastward slope, the water covering the Tablelands would have been measured in the hundreds of feet not in the thousands. As a comparison, Lake Michigan has an average depth of five hundred feet, while the Atlantic Ocean averages around four thousand feet.
There's also notes about this somewhere-or-another - the Green Age was quite civilized and pretty "technologically advanced", just with technology based on psionics rather than mechanics. They had psi-powered subway systems and plumbing, etc.
I agree that the Green Age civilizations had the technology to build roads. The Romans were able to build roads similar to the ones described. I was referring more to the fact that all of the cities would have to agree to the roads being built in their lands, especially if they were city-states or part of independent nations. Usually only empires have the resource and authority to build large road systems.
He was perfecting it, plotting out the CW, etc.
Four thousand years is a very long time. Four thousand years ago Stonehenge was being built, the Akkadians were conquering the Sumerians, and bands of hunter-gathers were just settling in the Tiber river valley were they would eventually found the city of Rome. Basically, most of human history can be contained in that time span.
I understand that it took quiet a while for Rajaat to go from discovering the basic principles of magic to being able to cast psionic-enchantments. But since it took him two hundred years to discover the basics, I would imagine that he could get a handle on epic level spells within two or three thousand years, at the most. That still leaves quite a bit of time left over. And for someone of Rajaat’s intelligence, I don’t think it would take a thousand years (the time from the Middle Ages to now) to come up with a plan to carry out the Cleansing Wars, especially since it seems that he left most of the operational planning to the Champions.
The gith didn't exist during the Cleansing Wars. In one of the adventures (Black Spine, I think) it's mentioned that the gith are the devolved offspring of githyanki who were "psi-bombed" by githzerazai (or was it the other way around?) at some point in time after the CW ended. I can't remember the specifics, but the gith are, basically, a New Race.
IIRC, Black Spine also says that the PsiBomb was responsible for the awakening of psionic potential on Athas, which happened around the time of the Rebirth. So either Rajaat knew the gith were an “alien” race or there is a champion missing.
Actually, I think it's more a matter of the defilers simply being too much of a risk to the city itself than it is a matter of the SK's worrying about what their subjects think - they already have an army of magic-wielding templars to control the city, so augmenting that with a bunch of power-hungry individuals who destroy what little plantlife there is whenever they cast just doesn't make much sense. On the other hand, most SK's keep Trees of Life near their palaces, not only for their own use but also so their court defilers can cast without fear of wiping out a bunch of plantlife. That right there is the second reason to keep them "secret and out of the public eye" - as long as they're casting from the confines of the SK's palace, drawing life from a nearby Tree of Life, no one even has to think about the fact that there are wizards about.
The passage I was referring to was about the general attitude towards wizards and not the SKs desire to conserve resources which is a reason to keep the number of defilers limited, not necessarily one to keep them secret.
And, finally, there's the whole "secret police" aspect to court defilers - by keeping them scarce, when an SK sends one to "deal with a problem" it's that much more frightening to everyone - unlike the templars, when a defiler casts it's quite obvious, so to see a government-sanctioned defiler in action serves as a great reminder of the supreme power the SK holds over his subjects.
Having defilers display their power to the masses kind of goes contrary to the whole “kept in secret and out of the public eye” concept.;)
I understand that it took quiet a while for Rajaat to go from discovering the basic principles of magic to being able to cast psionic-enchantments. But since it took him two hundred years to discover the basics, I would imagine that he could get a handle on epic level spells within two or three thousand years, at the most. That still leaves quite a bit of time left over. And for someone of Rajaat’s intelligence, I don’t think it would take a thousand years (the time from the Middle Ages to now) to come up with a plan to carry out the Cleansing Wars, especially since it seems that he left most of the operational planning to the Champions.
Well, he didn't just have to master the magical arts, he had to invent them which would take quite a bit longer. In addition he had to teach thousands of students and learn which race was most suited to the wielding magic and his purposes. Then he had to very slowly put things into motion setting up all sorts of preparations before the cleansing wars actually began. Besides how many people do things as quickly as they could? "4-year" degree anyone?
Would the Shadow Giants have knowledge of lifeshaping or are they from a time where halfings lost that knowledge?
I imagine they have.
The difference between these halflings and previous nature-masters would be drive and philosophy: These don't care - for now - about making more and new lifeshapes, or recreating the marvels of the Blue Age halfling civilization. What they care about, like a feverish madness, is to undo the primordial mistake that the Rebirth was. As much as they hate what Rajaat stands for (as a creation of the Rebirth), they see him as the best tool to reach their end, and so does he. And with his help the Pristine Tower was remade into a tool even more powerful than the nature-masters ever dreamed it could achieve.
Who knows what insanely powerful epic spell Rajaat intended to channel through the Lens and the Tower, to remake Athas as it was...
Even considering a general eastward slope, the water covering the Tablelands would have been measured in the hundreds of feet not in the thousands. As a comparison, Lake Michigan has an average depth of five hundred feet, while the Atlantic Ocean averages around four thousand feet.
Depending on your definition of "fairly shallow" then yes, I guess the Tablelands, in general, would be considered shallow. I'm not so sure about your numbers, though - it's something like 250-300 miles from the Silt Sea to Tyr, so even a very gradual slope upward of 3 or 4 feet per mile would result in (what I'd consider) a normal-depth sea. Perhaps not *ocean* depth but still, I can see it being 1000ish feet deep or so by the time you get to the Balic area. And that's not even taking into account the possibility that Tyr lies several hundred, or even thousand, feet up from most of the surrounding Tablelands - it's close enough to the Ringing Mountains that there may be a definitive, sharper rise upwards as you approach the city-state than there is elsewhere on the Tablelands. It's all speculation unless someone has a direct reference, though.
I agree that the Green Age civilizations had the technology to build roads. The Romans were able to build roads similar to the ones described. I was referring more to the fact that all of the cities would have to agree to the roads being built in their lands, especially if they were city-states or part of independent nations. Usually only empires have the resource and authority to build large road systems.
*Shrug* Given that there is direct reference to the subway/"trav" systems, which would be much more complicated to construct than a cobblestone road, I'm guessing there must have been cooperation between the cities.
IIRC, Black Spine also says that the PsiBomb was responsible for the awakening of psionic potential on Athas, which happened around the time of the Rebirth. So either Rajaat knew the gith were an “alien” race or there is a champion missing.
I thought the psibomb occurred later on in Athas' history...IIRC there was a thread on the boards about a year ago covering this, and how the history as presented in Black Spine had to be manipulated in order to fit in with the rest of the (canon) history of Athas.
Having defilers display their power to the masses kind of goes contrary to the whole “kept in secret and out of the public eye” concept.;)
A couple of the SKs keep themselves out of the public eye for the most part...but when they do come out, they make sure that it's a memorable appearance. Given the vast amount of data we have to pull from, relying on that one sentence as rationale for how the SKs handle all their defilers is probably a bad idea. (...when dealing with Athasian history, relying on one sentence is commonly a bad idea...;) )
Would the Shadow Giants have knowledge of lifeshaping or are they from a time where halfings lost that knowledge?
It could be interresing for them to suddenly discover a way of shaping life in their new form or teaching lifeshaping to a deserving halfling community, AKA new army.
I doubt that shadow giants have any great understanding of lifeshaping. The original halflings loyal to Rajaat may have had some knowledge, but I doubt it was passed down to the future generations of SGs.
It may be more likely that Sysane is right, in that knowledge of how to lifeshape was lost to them since Rajaat found them, but they have retained enough basic knowledge to have helped him unlock the secrets of the Tower.
My thoughts exactly