What I know to be canon.
1) Plant Life – The most common Arcane source used by Preservers and Defilers.
2) Animal Life – Arcane, Used nearly exclusively by SK’s and other beings that cast by way of Obsidian Orbs.
3) Elemental Planes – Divine Magic, used by clerics of the 4 main elements.
4) Para-Elemental – Divine, variant of the above.
5) The Land/Nature – Divine, used by Druids and possibly Rangers
This is where I start to get a little confused. Are they viable sources?
6) Arcane Sun Magic – Used only rarely (Pristine Tower and Sardra)
7) Moon Magic – Non-canon, hinted at being used by Druids.
8) Necromancy – Arcane, references hint at this being it’s own type of magic.
That’s all I can remember hearing about at the moment, If I missed any please add them. A little clarity would be helpful, thanks in advance.
and while most people don't refer to it as such...
Psionics from the mind.
Cerulean - Wizards can tap the Cerulean Storm for spell energy. This is one of the more interesting sources, since, at it's most basic level, it is using Elemental power to fuel ARCANE spells, rather than Clerical, and no pact is necessary. I consider the source to be Elemental, as it IS nothing but rain , clouds and such, with Tithian's consciousness trapped within. So technically, the Cerulean PrC allows one to fuel Arcane spalls by indirectly drawing power from the Paraelemental Plane of Rain via the Cerulean Storm.
I tend to think of the CS as being powered and maintained by the Dark Lens sitting at the bottom of the lava lake near Ur Draxa.
Cerulean Storm Based Magic... missed that one.
Shadow Magic, from the Black. Thought that was Necromancy.
I left Psionics off intentionally, yes it is a source of power, but it's not magic. ;)
Unless there's a Feat or PrC out there I'm unaware of...
Revised list:
Arcane Sources
1) Plant Life – Used by Preservers and Defilers.
2) Animal Life – Used nearly exclusively by SK’s and other beings that cast by way of Obsidian Orbs.
3) Necromancy – Specialist magic.
4) Shadow Magic – Specialist magic.
5) Cerulean Magic – Specialist magic.
6) Arcane Sun Magic – Used only rarely (Pristine Tower and Sardra).
Divine Sources
7) Elemental Planes – Used by clerics of the 4 main elements.
8) Para-Elemental – Variant of the above.
9) The Land/Nature – Used by Druids and possibly Rangers.
10) Elemental Vortices – Used by Templars in the Try Region.
11) Moon Magic – Non-canon, hinted at being used by Druids in another thread.
I always thought of the Vortices as being part of the Pristine Tower's Transformations of the Champions, hence Sun Based.
While its true that the Champions were intially linked to the LV via the Pristine Tower, the energy source that the SKs use to grant templar spells is drawn from the LVs attachment to the four elemental planes.
Shadow Magic, from the Black. Thought that was Necromancy.
Necromancy is drawing power from the Gray, not the Black.
While its true that the Champions were intially linked to the LV via the Pristine Tower, the energy source that the SKs use to grant templar spells is drawn from the LVs attactment to the four elemental planes.
Mostly right, although actually, the Champions were linked to the Living Vortices through Bory's use of the Dark Lens, not the Pristine Tower. The Pristine Tower was used in the creation of the Champions by Rajaat, but not in the transformation of the Champions into first-stage dragons and their concurrent attachment to the Living Vortices. It's one of those odd misconceptions of DS canon that gets around a fair bit, but the game material is actually unequivocal on the matter
. Apologies for the nitpick, but it's a pet peeve ;)...Mostly right, although actually, the Champions were linked to the Living Vortices through Bory's use of the Dark Lens, not the Pristine Tower. The Pristine Tower was used in the creation of the Champions by Rajaat, but not in the transformation of the Champions into first-stage dragons and their concurrent attachment to the Living Vortices. It's one of those odd misconceptions of DS canon that gets around a fair bit, but the game material is actually unequivocal on the matter
While the latest and last source material on LVs support this, I truly detest the idea that Borys is credited with granting the SKs the ability to grant spells to their followers. I preferred Dragon Kings' explanation so much better.
Mostly right, although actually, the Champions were linked to the Living Vortices through Bory's use of the Dark Lens, not the Pristine Tower. The Pristine Tower was used in the creation of the Champions by Rajaat, but not in the transformation of the Champions into first-stage dragons and their concurrent attachment to the Living Vortices. It's one of those odd misconceptions of DS canon that gets around a fair bit, but the game material is actually unequivocal on the matter
Euh, Kam? Last I checked the official position of athas.org is that Dragon Kings is right, and Abbey is wrong, thus templars started existing only after the Champions became SKs...
...which incidentaly means that all the references to templars of the Champion Daskinor, during his war against the goblins, in the upcoming book by Peter and Will, are errors. Peter has been informed of this but I got no feedback from that specific bit.
P.S. I too hate the Borys part and would far prefer the Tower part. Magic-wielding templars make superfluous bureaucrats in the city-states, but would have made great priest warriors during ancient wars. Abbey described it beautifully.
Euh, Kam? Last I checked the official position of athas.org is that Dragon Kings is right, and Abbey is wrong, thus templars started existing only after the Champions became SKs...
...which incidentaly means that all the references to templars of the Champion Daskinor, during his war against the goblins, in the upcoming book by Peter and Will, are errors. Peter has been informed of this but I got no feedback from that specific bit.
P.S. I too hate the Borys part and would far prefer the Tower part. Magic-wielding templars make superfluous bureaucrats in the city-states, but would have made great priest warriors during ancient wars. Abbey described it beautifully.
I think that the title of Templar during the CW was different, and that they were clerics or other spell casters that helped out. After the discovery of the Vorticies, the need to have them worship elements went away, making loyalty much easier to control.
For the record, here are the relevant references, including the stuff from Dragon Kings, which contrary to popular belief, doesn't invalidate anything that came later:
In actuality, with the casting of their first metamorphosing spells, the sorcerer-kings each attracted the attention of a very powerful and rare creature - a living vortex. With spidery fingers firmly anchored in all the elemental planes and the prime material plane, the living vortex is a continuous conduit of magical energy. The sorcerer-kings are, until their deaths, a source of elemental magical power funnelled directly to them by their living vortex, a creature they don't even realize exists.
Dragon Kings, page 11
Dragon Kings just tells us that the SKs became joined to the LVs when they cast their first defiler metamorphosis spells and don't even know that they exist. It notes that it is unclear when this metamorphosis began, but makes no other references.
In secret, he showed a select group of others how to use defiling magic. Of these students, he kept watch for powerful mindbenders, for his ultimate plan required those who could combine psionics with defiling magic to transform themselves into a new type of being . . . a being of dark power.
Eventually, Rajaat sent all but fifteen of his students away With the nature-manipulating powers of the Pristine Tower, he turned these fifteen students into his Champions. Drawing energy from the yellow sun, Rajaat imbued each of his Champions with immortality and the ability to draw magical energy from living creatures through the use of obsidian orbs. This, combined with their own psionic powers and defiling magic, would have made them nearly invincible. But Rajaat did not stop there. He hinted that there was a level of existence beyond that which he had granted them. “Through sorcery and psionics, you can become as gods!” Rajaat promised, and his Champions believed him.
As the Pristine Tower channeled the sun’s energy into the Champions, the yellow orb changed. It turned crimson and dark, signaling the beginning of a time of blood and death of unprecedented magnitude. It signaled the start of the Cleansing Wars.
Dark Sun Revised Campaign Setting pages 12-13.
Here the Revised Campaign Setting tells us that, prior to the Cleansing Wars, Rajaat made his favourite students into his Champions. This process does two things: it makes them immortal and allows them to draw magical energy from living creatures through the use of obsidian orbs. Nothing more. He hints that their powers of sorcery and psionics can lead them to greater power, promising them that they will become as gods. They believe him. he is referring to the transformation into dragons. But this transformation has not yet begun.
Defilers and Preservers echoes this text almost verbatim:
With the nature-manipulating powers of the Tower at his disposal, Rajaat turned these fifteen disciples into his Champions. Drawing energy from the then-yellow sun, Rajaat imbued each of his Champions with immortality and the ability to draw energy from living creatures through the use of obsidian orbs.
Defilers and Preservers, page 19
Once the Champions realise Rajaat's full plans, they betray him and use the Dark Lens to imprison him in the Hollow.
With the help of an artifact called the Dark Lens, Borys and the Champions imprisoned Rajaat beyond the shadow dimension of the Black, in a place of nothingness called the Hollow; they hurled his halfling guards into the Black.
Revised Campaign Setting, page 13
Led by Borys of Ebe, the Champions imprisoned Rajaat beyond the shadow dimensionof the Black, in a place of nothingness called the Hollow.
Defilers and Preservers, page 20
Then, Borys uses the Dark Lens again to transform the other Champions into first-stage dragons, dragon-kings. They then use then Lens to turn him into the Dragon and he stands guards over Rajaat. (Note that here is the only contradiction on this topic: The Revised Campaign Setting says that Borys became the Dragon after the other SKs, whereas Defilers and Preservers says that he became the Dragon before the other SKs. Other than that small point, there is agreement across the board.)
First, he [Borys] allowed each Champion to claim one of the city-states of the Tyr Region as his or her own domain, elevating each to the title of sorcerer-king. Then he taught them the process for taking the next step up the ladder of existence: Borys taught the sorcerer-kings how to become dragon kings.
Using the Dark Lens to focus their combined magic and psionic energy, Borys began the transformations of the sorcerer-kings. The resulting storm of energy as the initial metamorphosing spells were cast connected each of the sorcerer-kings to all of the elemental planes, thereby creating magical conduits through which elemental priestly magic could be cast, This magic could not be used by the sorcerer-kings themselves, but it could be imbued upon their loyal servants, the templars, the humans who helped in the Cleansing Wars.
Now the sorcerer-king were like gods, but Borys did not stop there. “One of us must complete the full transformation to dragon if the spells holding Rajaat are to remain in place,” Borys explained. “One of us must become his warden for the rest of time." Borys, of course, was to be that warden. Using the Dark Lens again, the sorcerer-kings transformed Borys into the Dragon.
Revised Campaign Setting, page 14
To make certain that the spells held and the gateways were guarded, Borys underwent the transformations that turned him into the Dragon. The Champions, meanwhile, each assumed control of one of the great cities of the Tyr Region. They became the sorcerer-kings.
With the aid of a magical artifact called the Dark Lens, Borys tied the sorcerer-kings together by connecting them to all the elemental planes. They became magical conduits through which elemental priestly magic could be accessed. This allowed the sorcerer-kings to imbue their templars with priestly spells, though they couldn’t use priestly magic themselves.
Defilers and Preservers, page 20
So yes, there were no spell-casting templars during the Cleansing Wars. The SKs only gained the ability to grant spells at the time of their transformation at the hands of Borys. All sources agree on this, from Dragon Kings right on down the line. Rajaat did not turn his Champions into dragons, Borys did. The Pristine Tower was not used in the dragon metamorphosis or the attachment to the LVs, the Dark Lens was.
While the latest and last source material on LVs support this, I truly detest the idea that Borys is credited with granting the SKs the ability to grant spells to their followers. I preferred Dragon Kings' explanation so much better.
Well, Dragon Kings doesn't actually give any explanation beyond the fact that the LVs were attached to the SKs at the time of their transformation into dragons. You have to wait until the later books to find out when that was.
Now, that said....
Beyond the Prism Pentad (for all that it is an execrable waste of paper) does tell us that Borys and the other SKs took possession of the Pristine Tower after imprisoning Rajaat. So it is entirely possible that they did their transformations there. The game material doesn't state that they used it though, but it could well have been the location of their activity. This is on page 6 of that book.
Although it is not game-material, The Obsidian Oracle confirms this. It tells us that the Pristine Tower was the birthplace of the Dragon, but it is explicit in saying that the Dark Lens was responsible for his transformation.
Euh, Kam? Last I checked the official position of athas.org is that Dragon Kings is right, and Abbey is wrong, thus templars started existing only after the Champions became SKs...
...which incidentaly means that all the references to templars of the Champion Daskinor, during his war against the goblins, in the upcoming book by Peter and Will, are errors. Peter has been informed of this but I got no feedback from that specific bit.
I can't speak as to current athas.org projects. But the game material is clear. There were templars during the Cleansing Wars, and they may have had spells, but those spells didn't come from their SKs. They could have been elemental priests, druids, defilers, whatever else, however. But until the LVs come onto the scene after Rajaat's imprisonment, there are no spell-csating templars in the traditional sense.
P.S. I too hate the Borys part and would far prefer the Tower part. Magic-wielding templars make superfluous bureaucrats in the city-states, but would have made great priest warriors during ancient wars. Abbey described it beautifully.
I also liked Lynn Abbey's take on things. But game material takes precedence, particularly when it comes from an out-of-character narrator, as is the case with Dragon Kings and Defilers and Preservers. Far from contradicting other sources, Dragon Kings actually backs them up - it just doesn't have the full story laid out. It certainly doesn't give an alternate account.
As individual DMs, the game is ours to make of what we will (my home DS games don't have much in common with canon at all) but the same does not go for established setting material. That should be tinkered with as little as possible from a design/development perspective imho, or you run the risk of diluting the shared common ground that DS fans enjoy. We have enough contradictions in the setting as it is without adding any more (which, incidentally, is my feeling regarding the recent brouhaha surrounding the Lifeshaped Handbook - but there are some threads you just don't go anywhere near :D...) I know that recent athas.org releases have blurred this line, but I am a traditionalist in that respect. Dregoth Ascending, for example, involves the Pristine Tower in the dragon metamporphosis, even though this contradicts the 2e material. Not my cup of tea, but there you go.
Anyway, feel free to disagree with me here. As you can see, it's a topic that I feel the need to ramble on at length about, mainly because it has been misrepresented so often. And go ahead and cite any sources that you find to the contrary - always interested in seeing the full picture, assuming that it's out there
.What Penn is pointing out is that if Borys is credited with granting the SKs their spell granting abilities via the LV, the Champions couldn't of had divine spellcasting followers during the Cleansing Wars.
Yup, that's how it works, and I'd agree with him on that point. There could have been templars with divine spellcasting abilities during the Cleansing Wars, but those spells can't have been coming from the sorcerer-kings.
Wasn't the Dark Lens contained or stored within the Pristine Tower (hence my incorrectly lumping them togeather)? If so the the Lens could have been used at the location of the Tower, nothing is contradicted then.
I'd say that this is probably right. That was always my impression as well, and it's supported by the Prism Pentad novels. The Lens was stolen from the Tower by two dwarven knights, so it was certainly used there. I'm just opposed to the claim that the Tower was the implement for the SKs' transformations, when all sources make it clear it was the Lens. The Tower was, at most, the location. If it had been part of the process, there would have been some mention of it, imho. As it stands, there is none.
No worries either way - these discussions are all part of being a DS fan
Beats the hell out of arguing about alternate rules for defiling!What Penn is pointing out is that if Borys is credited with granting the SKs their spell granting abilities via the LV, the Champions couldn't of had divine spellcasting followers during the Cleansing Wars.
They could have had divine spellcasting followers during the Cleansing Wars, just not ones that got their spells directly from the Champions themselves. The divine spellcasting followers would have probably been some kind of elemental (or paraelemental?) clerics. Honestly, I'm of the notion it may have been a good number of paraelemental clerics -- think about it a moment... the Cleansing Wars did a *lot* to advance the goals of the paraelements (increasing the spread of magma, silt, and sun on the world, balance be damned). There could have been a somewhat subversive purpose to it ending up like that, orchestrated by those three paraelements and their followers.
They could have had divine spellcasting followers during the Cleansing Wars, just not ones that got their spells directly from the Champions themselves. The divine spellcasting followers would have probably been some kind of elemental (or paraelemental?) clerics. Honestly, I'm of the notion it may have been a good number of paraelemental clerics -- think about it a moment... the Cleansing Wars did a *lot* to advance the goals of the paraelements (increasing the spread of magma, silt, and sun on the world, balance be damned). There could have been a somewhat subversive purpose to it ending up like that, orchestrated by those three paraelements and their followers.
What xdh said
They could have had divine spellcasting followers during the Cleansing Wars, just not ones that got their spells directly from the Champions themselves.
Agreed. I'm not going to contest that the Champions didn't have divine spellcasting followers. I'm just pointing out that they wouldn't of had the ability to bestow divine spellcasting under the belief that Bory's is resposible for attaching the LVs to the Champions.
Agreed. I'm not going to contest that the Champions didn't have divine spellcasting followers. I'm just pointing out that they wouldn't of had the ability to bestow divine spellcasting under the belief that Bory's is resposible for attaching the LVs to the Champions.
Which is the belief I personally hold to. I don't believe for a moment that Borys or the others even knew what happened when the LVs were "attached", it was a mistake.
Which is the belief I personally hold to. I don't believe for a moment that Borys or the others even knew what happened when the LVs were "attached", it was a mistake.
I personally ignore it. I feel Rajaat's students would have been attached to the LVs when they became Champions.
I feel that the writers who updated the setting through the Revised Box Set misconstrued and convoluted the terms "Champion" and "Dragon".
I personally ignore it. I feel Rajaat's students would have been attached to the LVs when they became Champions.
I tend to not think that Rajaat had any connection to the elemental planes (unlike other Pyreen)
I feel that the writers who updated the setting through the Revised Box Set misconstrued and convoluted the terms "Champion" and "Dragon".
I do too. But, I didn't really start with the setting back in it's original boxed set era. My first introduction to Dark Sun was at training in the Army, and the guy who ran it wasn't too familiar with it (other than it was something "different") -- and he had a smattering of books across the spectrum. I'm not so religiously (sic) tied to what the setting was from the 1st edition Dark Sun, or how it changed (some might call was "ruined") by the 2nd edition DS, I rather like to integrate elements from the various materials across the board, and tend to rule when digging for stuff in them, that they are very subjective viewpoints.
I personally ignore it. I feel Rajaat's students would have been attached to the LVs when they became Champions.
I feel that the writers who updated the setting through the Revised Box Set misconstrued and convoluted the terms "Champion" and "Dragon".
I don't see this kind of confusion in the Revised set. I do see it in Psionic Artifacts of Athas and the 2e Book of Artifacts, though. A lot.
I don't see this kind of confusion in the Revised set. I do see it in Psionic Artifacts of Athas and the 2e Book of Artifacts, though. A lot.
I'm referencing more to the updating of the material from the original campaign boxed set to the revised campaign setting.
I'm referencing more to the updating of the material from the original campaign boxed set to the revised campaign setting.
Well, in the original boxed set there was no mention of Champions or transformations at all, and only one Dragon. Apart from the metamorphosis stuff in Dragon Kings, most of these things appeared out of nowhere with the release of the Revised Setting (actually, they were introduced in the novels, but if you didn't read any of the novels, like me, it came as a bit of a shock "Cleansing Wars? Halflings?? WTF???" :D )
I tend to not think that Rajaat had any connection to the elemental planes (unlike other Pyreen)
Rajaat's connection (or lack there of) to the elemental planes wouldn't necessarily factor into the LVs accidently attaching themselves to the Champions.
Alright, one more question: What happened to the Elemental Vortices connected to the Sorcerer Kings killed during the Age of Heroes?
I believe it is stated that the Elemental Vortices literally became part of the SK's, and basically are no longer separate entities merely attached to the SK's. As such, if the SK died, all of the SK died. It is a fusion of the two beings, not some symbiotic attachment.
I believe it is stated that the Elemental Vortices literally became part of the SK's, and basically are no longer separate entities merely attached to the SK's. As such, if the SK died, all of the SK died. It is a fusion of the two beings, not some symbiotic attachment.
Dregoth Ascending makes it clear that a living vortex can survive the death of its sorcerer king. Phoenix_M, check out that adventure at athas.org for full details
.Unless you are one of those pesky PC's. All my plans would have worked, if it weren't for you!!!!!
Another point that goes in favor of Borys, in p. 342 of The Amber Enchantress, Borys said to Tithian :¨ Tyr belonged to Kalak, and Kalak to me.
Kalak is clearly appointed to Tyr by Borys...why not transformed into a dragon by Borys.
Menestrel, the once Bloody DM and now Gentle Dad
Arcane Sources
1) Plant Life – Default
2) Animal Life – ???
3) Necromancy – ???
4) Shadow Magic – PrC/Feat (IIRC)
5) Cerulean Magic – PrC/Feat (IIRC)
6) Arcane Sun Magic – Act of GM
Divine Sources
7) Elemental Planes – Determined at character generation.
8) Para-Elemental – Determined at character generation.
9) The Land/Nature – Determined by class
10) Elemental Vortices – Determined by class
11) Moon Magic – ??? (Feat maybe)
I'm thinking about making a necromancer and cannot find how to accomplish it.
Thanks.
Arcane Sources
1) Plant Life – Default
2) Animal Life – PrC
3) Necromancy – PrC
4) Shadow Magic – PrC
5) Cerulean Magic – PrC
6) Arcane Sun Magic – Act of GM (Needs to be fleshed out by GM as well.)
Divine Sources
7) Elemental Planes – Determined at character generation.
8) Para-Elemental – Determined at character generation.
9) The Land/Nature – Determined by class
10) Elemental Vortices – Determined by class
11) Moon Magic – Not a source at the moment (but could be?)
To make a necromancer, you just need to take the Necromant PrC. This requires a feat, 3rd level spells, and some skills. So, you need to be (minimum) 5th level wizard first. Also, they can always choose to use plant life, they just don't have to.
So their all PrC based, Dragon Spit. While not DS, didn't Forgotten Realms had an option to get the casting style (as a Feat) with out needing to get the class. The requirements harder and different, but could be picked up before the class could by level req.
How is that epic transformational necromant PrC going Chris? :D (That one is a mouthful)
Don't you deviate him from finishing LoA first!
How is that epic transformational necromant PrC going Chris? :D (That one is a mouthful)
When I get word about SotDL, I'll let you know. ;)
Though, my Epic Shadow Mage transformational PrC (The Shadow Shifter) is done. Might need a little tweeking with the Epic Spell for DC and mitigating factors, but the PrC is solid (well... Not solid, since you become an incorporeal shadow... but...)
the PrC is solid (well... Not solid, since you become an incorporeal shadow... but...)
Yadi yadi yada
...the PrC is solid (well... Not solid, since you become an incorporeal shadow... but...)
Cnahumck, the Pun Police have been sent, do not try and run, they will find you...
Cnahumck, the Pun Police have been sent, do not try and run, they will find you...
I handle the Pun Police like I handled the Harmonium in Sigil, ambush em, kill em, take their stuff.
I handle the Pun Police like I handled the Harmonium in Sigil, ambush em, kill em, take their stuff.
Harmonium in Sigil? The Lady of Pain let them come back? :P
Harmonium in Sigil? The Lady of Pain let them come back? :P
No, this was before they got kicked out. It was always a fun time, ambushing them.
My friend DM'd Planescape, another had FR, and I was the DS guy.
No, this was before they got kicked out. It was always a fun time, ambushing them.
My friend DM'd Planescape, another had FR, and I was the DS guy.
I ran PS back in the day. We ended it with Faction War which was a pretty decent adventure.
The Modron March was another adventure that was great. It involved the return of Orcus, and was pretty cool. Kind of like the way that Dregoth Ascending has gone down.
I read the Modron March along with Dead Gods but never got the chance to run them.