Maybe:
Monk – Striker
Sohei – Defender
Shugenja – Leader
Wu-Jen - Controller
Any chances for oriental adventures races appearing too?
I think it's pretty much a given that if they release a 4th Ed OA there would be races and classes in there.
Probably the usual (hengeyokai, spirit folk, korobokuru etc), and maybe a few new options.
Of course the question is, what will they use as the basic campaign setting now that WotC doesn't own Rokugan.
Will the use Kara-Tur or will they make a new setting? If they make a new setting, what will it look like?
Will the use Kara-Tur or will they make a new setting?
I'm hoping for [smallcaps]Kara-Tur.[/smallcaps]
I just prefer OA and KT be separate books or products.
Ninja - ki (and a bit of arcane magic) striker
Samurai - ki defender
Sohei - ki (and a bit of divine) magic defender
Shugenja - divine magic leader.
Wu jen - arcane magic controller.
Spirit shaman - divine magic controller?
Sha´ir (from al-Qadim setting) - mixture of arcane magic controller and leader.
I was just about to ask myself about OA but glad I noticed this topic first.
I'm hoping for [smallcaps]Kara-Tur.[/smallcaps]
I just prefer OA and KT be separate books or products.
I think it might best to roll Kara-Tur and Zakhara into Forgotten Realms and allow for the possibility for other similar societies in other European-based game settings.
With both Arabian Adventures and Oriental Adventures, it might be best to simply give each their own little campaign supplement book with rules for playing in a setting with those themes and then let the rest derive from the primary campaign setting.
So each would have the few unique classes that would replace some of the European-type classes in those areas, some of the unique monsters and some of the types of unique situations you might encounter in those societies. I think it should be kept general enough to allow for a good amount of flexibility.
With both Arabian Adventures and Oriental Adventures, it might be best to simply give each their own little campaign supplement book with rules for playing in a setting with those themes and then let the rest derive from the primary campaign setting.
I just want OA to be like PHB, using [smallcaps]Kara-Tur[/smallcaps] in examples and iconics. It doesn't have to have its own chapter, just a generic Asian campaign guide chapter.
Oh, and this is just a tiny suggestion for all future product, not limited to OA: Make sure the examples (and iconics' stats) are in-sync with the rules as written.
I'm hoping for [smallcaps]Kara-Tur.[/smallcaps]
I just prefer OA and KT be separate books or products.
I think thats the best way to go as well.
I just want OA to be like PHB, using [smallcaps]Kara-Tur[/smallcaps] in examples and iconics. It doesn't have to have its own chapter, just a generic Asian campaign guide chapter.
I am just thinking that Oriental Adventures (and Arabian Adventures) might be more successful if implemented in such a way that they highly encourage cross-meshing with the PHB and MM.
I just don't know that they have a wide enough audience on their own to be launched as totally disparate settings. If instead the product is created in such a way that one can say 'you can either make a character who lives in this world or you can use all these books together and play a pirate/mercenary crew that sails from land to land having various adventures' it might be more popular and encourage more people to utilize the books for the settings.
I bought Oriental Adventures 3.0E and, sadly, all it ever did was sit on my shelf collecting dust.
That being said, I would also like it to be more generic and not world specific (Rokugan/Kara-Tur etc), and I would also like it to not be 75% or whatever Japanese biased, as the previous OA supplements seem to be, I want my other Asian cultures represented decently too.
I believe they have stated that a 4th Ed OA supplement will definitely come around the bend at some point.
That being said, I would also like it to be more generic and not world specific (Rokugan/Kara-Tur etc), and I would also like it to not be 75% or whatever Japanese biased, as the previous OA supplements seem to be, I want my other Asian cultures represented decently too.
I'd agree, but in a way that respects the differences between them and not some sort of bastardized "I watched a couple of bad kung fu flicks and started making stuff up" amalgam like Kara-Tur. (I mean, you can't even accurately spell "Kara-Tur" in Japanese, Chinese, or Korean. And what's with some of the races in the setting?)
Overall, though, I think the main problem with all of these settings is that they're written by Westerners not steeped in the history and traditions of the cultures that they're drawing on, so they become cultural parodies in some ways.
I'd agree, but in a way that respects the differences between them and not some sort of bastardized "I watched a couple of bad kung fu flicks and started making stuff up" amalgam like Kara-Tur. (I mean, you can't even accurately spell "Kara-Tur" in Japanese, Chinese, or Korean. And what's with some of the races in the setting?)
Actually, the Oriental Adventues seemed to show a greater than average understanding of many Asian cultures. It just didn't entirely limit itself to them as they were in reality, and made a fantasy setting that was an amalgamation of east Asian ideas, themes, and concepts in a more pulpy/adventurous way.
Which would be pretty much what they did in core D&D in regards to western Europe, only they were much less faithful to historical/cultural accuracy that time around.
Overall, though, I think the main problem with all of these settings is that they're written by Westerners not steeped in the history and traditions of the cultures that they're drawing on, so they become cultural parodies in some ways.
Probably no more than they're steeped in a lot of the history they write about, since many of the western European themed classes, races, etc, still come off as cultural parodies and stereotypes.
The Oriental Adventures PHB would have Hengeyokai and Samurai, instead of Elves and Warlords, while the Arabian Adventures PHB would have the standard races, but add Shi'ar, etc. Most of the feats and skills wouldn't need to be printed, and quite a few weapons could be included in a list (Scimitar - see PHB, Horse-spear - use Light Lance stats from PHB, etc) rather than printing up huge weapon redundant weapon charts, having smaller charts for the highly specific weapons that don't have PHB equivalents (like Chijiriki or whatever).
Instead of reprinting all of the spells and feats and skills, only the more specialized ones could appear, with the rest following the 'see PHB' theme, perhaps with a listing of variant names, based on the culture, or, in the case of skills, optional applications more commonly used in that culture (using Diplomacy to deliberately offend and provoke someone with a slight in Japanese tradition, Profession (barber) in Arabian tradition, etc.).
Additional culture-specific books could also appear, such as ones based on African adventures (similar to Nyambe) or Indian adventures (based on the excellent Dragon articles of many years back).
I bought Oriental Adventures 3.0E and, sadly, all it ever did was sit on my shelf collecting dust.
Mine, too. Until WotC introduced the gawd-awful 3.5e samurai class in Complete Warrior. That's when I'm able to tune out all those Rokugan turd-scum inside my beloved Oriental Adventures.
Also helps to have Dragon #315, the "Campaign Classics" issue featuring a [smallcaps]Kara-Tur[/smallcaps] article.
BTW, from what I heard, there is going to be one new Player's Handbook supplement every year for 4e. Perhaps one of those volumes will be focus on Asian Heroes (although "Asian" is too Earth-specific ... our Earth, not some fantasy world).
I'd agree, but in a way that respects the differences between them and not some sort of bastardized "I watched a couple of bad kung fu flicks and started making stuff up" amalgam like Kara-Tur. (I mean, you can't even accurately spell "Kara-Tur" in Japanese, Chinese, or Korean. And what's with some of the races in the setting?)
Overall, though, I think the main problem with all of these settings is that they're written by Westerners not steeped in the history and traditions of the cultures that they're drawing on, so they become cultural parodies in some ways.
I actually thought that Kara-Tur modelled the real world a little too closely.
I actually thought that Kara-Tur modelled the real world a little too closely.
You got a problem with that?
You got a problem with that?
I know I did. By doing so, it was constrained and not allowed to come up with more pulpy or playable options. Unlike core D&D, despite being based in medival European and mythology, changed lots of things, the other settings stuck too closely.
There's no United Kingdom, no Ireland, no France, no Norway, or Italy in D&D. There are elements from these places and cultures, but not entire nations and peoples you could apply to them. However, In Kara-Tur and Oriental Adventures, one could more easily go, "Those are the Japanese, those are the Chinese, they're Korean, and those folks are Indian."
In addition to limiting the fantasy, it also meant ticking off lots of people who demanded historical acuracy, yet only recieved a half-way approach. It's like the people who complain about how elements of D&D stray from middle ages Europe. Only thing is that people following east Asian (usually Japanese) history tend to be even more passionate and vocal in their opposition to anything they feel is historically innacurate, which is something they largely argue over with themselves (ninja origins, how Samurai REALLY were, etc). The fact that they felt the the need to ban Katana related threads for while is evidence of how prickly things can get when dealing with "historcial/factual accuracy" in a fantasy game.
So yeah, I'd think it very much preferable if they just abandoned all efforts at trying to be true to life and create analgues for historical events and cultures. Just take the cool elements of the cultures- the weapons, the armor, the monsters, character archetypes- strip the real world historical/cultural relationships, and plop them altogether in a fantasy world that has its own thing going on.
I know I did. By doing so, it was constrained and not allowed to come up with more pulpy or playable options. Unlike core D&D, despite being based in medival European and mythology, changed lots of things, the other settings stuck too closely.
True, but the identity and feel is distinct, as to one who can say, "Wait, this feel like a European medieval culture."
There's no United Kingdom, no Ireland, no France, no Norway, or Italy in D&D.
Not exactly, but D&D for the most part based on Eurocentric. It's not like you can say D&D feels like Polynesian or Asian.
There are elements from these places and cultures, but not entire nations and peoples you could apply to them. However, In Kara-Tur and Oriental Adventures, one could more easily go, "Those are the Japanese, those are the Chinese, they're Korean, and those folks are Indian."
They're LIKE them, they're NOT them.
Just like I can say in the BattleTech Universe, Draconis Combine is like the Japanese culture.
True, but the identity and feel is distinct, as to one who can say, "Wait, this feel like a European medieval culture."... Not exactly, but D&D for the most part based on Eurocentric. It's not like you can say D&D feels like Polynesian or Asian.
Yes, it's still distinct. However, they had much room to separate themselves from reality while still maintaining that distinctiveness. The Asian settings weren't just "generic Asia" in the way core D&D were"generic European". There were more obvious analogues to actual Asian cultures/nations. They almost literally pulled those nations out of history books, changed a few details, and then made them something else.
See where I'm going with this?
They're LIKE them, they're NOT them.
Right. That's what I said in my original post. However, they were much more like them than anything in D&D is like real world European nations. The result is that you didn't satisfy either the historical fans, or the fantasy fans. The history buffs get all bent out of shape because you didn't get the details right. The fantasy buffs get bent out of shape because the setting sticks to much to reality.
For example...
D&D core Dragons are patterned after many different concepts of Dragons in Europe (and so much more), while OA's Dragons are pretty much Han Chinese versions. Vietnam, Korea, Japan, and their respective peoples all had varying descriptions of Dragons. Other Asian peoples had other ideas. How about instead of using one historical example as the basis, we combine all the various ones into a kind of Dragon that's distinctly Asian, but not distinctly Chinese?
Just like I can say in the BattleTech Universe, Draconis Combine is like the Japanese culture.
Sure they are, but they don't make any attempts at being "generic Asian". Theres an actual Japan in the Battle tech universe.
I prefer mentions of non-occidental places than nothing at all.
So, I liked those 3 (4) places.
For example...
D&D core Dragons are patterned after many different concepts of Dragons in Europe (and so much more), while OA's Dragons are pretty much Han Chinese versions. Vietnam, Korea, Japan, and their respective peoples all had varying descriptions of Dragons. Other Asian peoples had other ideas. How about instead of using one historical example as the basis, we combine all the various ones into a kind of Dragon that's distinctly Asian, but not distinctly Chinese?
If you limit that to the dragon and not the culture salad that is Rokugan, sure.
If you limit that to the dragon and not the culture salad that is Rokugan, sure.
I'm not limiting it to the Dragon. The Dragon was (as I said) just an example.
You have your settings that are generic. D&D is more generic European. Avatar: the Last Air Bender and Exalted are more generic Asian.
Rokugan and Karat-Tur were Asian in the way that 7th Sea is European, or Arcanis is like the Mediterranean.
You got a problem with that?
I have a huge problem with it. This is a fantasy world, not Earth with Magic and Elves. I dislike fantasy worlds that draw too closely on the earth, especially in culture, geography and history. I never liked the fact that in Toril, 'Central America' was across the 'Atlantic' and to the east over land lies 'China'. Add to that the trips of Marco Volo... Yeah, I don't like it at all. I don't mind worlds that draw on the real world for inspiration but copying it ad hoc just feels forced and lame.
I like worlds that are an amalgamation, much like what D&D is. It isn't simply Medieval England, its the whole of Europe, slapped into a blender, then the best pulpy bits are taken out and crafted together to make an interesting whole.
I believe they have stated that a 4th Ed OA supplement will definitely come around the bend at some point.
That being said, I would also like it to be more generic and not world specific (Rokugan/Kara-Tur etc), and I would also like it to not be 75% or whatever Japanese biased, as the previous OA supplements seem to be, I want my other Asian cultures represented decently too.
IMO, there's a larger market for Japanese culture because it is what Americans are most familiar with. Every child knows what a Samurai and a Ninja are. Also, the presence of a semi-feudal culture, allows DMs and people unfamiliar with Eastern settings a sense of familiarity.
Granted this is not the best way of making an OA product but it is a sound one. Its essentially pandering to your base and excepting those that raise objections to capitulate and buy the product.
IMO, there's a larger market for Japanese culture because it is what Americans are most familiar with. Every child knows what a Samurai and a Ninja are. Also, the presence of a semi-feudal culture, allows DMs and people unfamiliar with Eastern settings a sense of familiarity.
Granted this is not the best way of making an OA product but it is a sound one. Its essentially pandering to your base and excepting those that raise objections to capitulate and buy the product.
Most American children THINK they know what a samurai and ninja are.
That's quite a long way from knowing what they are.
Most American children THINK they know what a samurai and ninja are.
That's quite a long way from knowing what they are.
From what I've seen, even people who "know" they know what they constantly seem to disagree and argue with one another on the matter.
However, everyone's familiar with the imagery.
From what I've seen, even people who "know" they know what they constantly seem to disagree and argue with one another on the matter.
However, everyone's familiar with the imagery.
there is the historical way, and the pop culture way.
Neitheir are really best in a rpg, as long as everyone have fun.
there is the historical way, and the pop culture way.
People argue over both. Many times have I seen many internet posters chastise someone else about the concept of the black pajama wearing ninja, only to begin arguments many pages long amongst themselves about what a ninja even is and who qualifies as one, and where they came from.
This isn't just constrained to Asian history though. There are lots of books, factoids, and bits of trivia floating around about many historical phenomena. Different people pick up different things with which to compose their greater understanding.
I have a huge problem with it.
But it's not MY problem. :P
I've already accepted that fact that this world and ours at one point actually easy to cross over, then over time portals and gates have disappeared with only a few known to Elminster. Would explain how dwarves and elves have become part of our past lores.
I've also already accepted the fact that parallel cultural development exist. (Anyone who's a Trek fans should know that.)
But more importantly, I accept the fact that WotC is giving us material not just to absorb but to EDIT to whatever I want Abeir-Toril to be for my own group's entertainment.
If FR is not right for you, you're welcome to try other settings.
Nothing against Americans but I kind of hope that WoTC caters to all their customers, not just Americans.
IMO, there's a larger market for Japanese culture because it is what Americans are most familiar with. Every child knows what a Samurai and a Ninja are. Also, the presence of a semi-feudal culture, allows DMs and people unfamiliar with Eastern settings a sense of familiarity.
Granted this is not the best way of making an OA product but it is a sound one. Its essentially pandering to your base and excepting those that raise objections to capitulate and buy the product.
The PHB is not a historically true account of Europe and neither shoud OD & D try to do the same, however, some sort of culture is needed or whay bother?
A generic warrior with some different choices in feats, skills and talents could become a bushi, a samurai, a ninja, a monk or a kensai. Giving guideline about how to make them is all that is required.
Core "Oriental" Classes:
- Barbarian - Somewhat mongoloid, with skill points going towards survival skills in the wild.
- Monks - 'cause they're friggin' monks.
- Ninja - Dude, they're friggin' ninjas. Crazy over-the-top ninja stuff is awsome.
- Samurai - Live by the sword, die by the sword
- Shaman - sure, there's probably an oriental word that would work, but more or less a cleric/druid blend that deals with the spirits of everything
- Sorcerer - flavor and mechanics that would separate it from the wizard.
Slap in some Point of Lights fluff using homogenised oriental flavor, and it makes a great addition to the Core system.
I think that it's ok and in fact good for the Oriental Adventures book to take inspiration from anime like Inuyasha, Naruto, and Sayuki (minus all the advanced technological elements). But they shouldn't dominate the setting. I think that it should also not be dominated by any one country's culture. You can take elements from everything from India to China to Japan and all the other nations in the region.
I don't think that many new classes are needed. Samurai can be represented by the Fighter, Wu Jen by the wizard maybe and Ninja by the Rogue especially considering this thread. So ki powers can just be more "magical" martial powers or you also some could be Psi or Arcane powers gained by a Class Training Feat. Though I'm still not sure on that.
Just because no one's mentioned it yet, I could definitely stand to see a lot of the elements of the Kamigawa setting from Magic the Gathering borrowed. It's fairly heavy on the Japanese side of things, but I liked a lot of its flavor.
Rokugan already did it, and well... not everyone liked it.
I could agree with a more global asian focus, as I tend to prefer chinese things (and I wish indian ones too), but well...
Just because no one's mentioned it yet, I could definitely stand to see a lot of the elements of the Kamigawa setting from Magic the Gathering borrowed. It's fairly heavy on the Japanese side of things, but I liked a lot of its flavor.
No. Unlike Reese's Peanut Butter Cup, I don't want M:tG in my D&D.
I dunno why but a ninja tiefling strikes me as very cool.
Your right, but for some reason my mind keeps coming to the idea of a Samuria Dragonborn.
No. Unlike Reese's Peanut Butter Cup, I don't want M:tG in my D&D.
Good ideas are good ideas, and if the setting would be worthwhile...
Good ideas are good ideas, and if the setting would be worthwhile...
Do it yourself. Don't let WotC do it for you, at least those on the R&D side of the company (the ones reponsible for rolling out RPGs).
If you want a M:tG RPG, let the TCG designer make it (with no help from the R&D folks).
Do it yourself. Don't let WotC do it for you, at least those on the R&D side of the company (the ones reponsible for rolling out RPGs).
If you want a M:tG RPG, let the TCG designer make it (with no help from the R&D folks).
They are the pros, not me - or you. They know this world also much more than I do.
They are the pros, not me - or you. They know this world also much more than I do.
Who's they? The current WotC folks who have been designing TCG since the 90's who may not have RPG design experience, or the other current WotC folks that were acquired from TSR, who have wealth of RPG design experience but lacking in TCG experience (remember TSR's Spellfire)?
Don't waste the latter folk's time who have their hands full on D&D, Eberron, and FR.
In fact, while we can't really avoid a Monk class due to its place in the 3.5 PHB, I'd like all other Asian themed classes to be merged into their respective universal versions. A good Fighter class could be a solid Samurai. The Rogue, as we've seen, wouldn't need very much tweaking at all to be a great Ninja. And so on. Maybe add some appropriate feats, powers, etc.
Maybe there could be an informative section for each Asian archetype and suggestions for how to make them. It would be enough to advertise "rules on how to make Samurai, Ninja, and more!" on the cover, without the silliness of building a new class for what is really a specialized version of an old one.
I'm all for an OA book, but I really, really hope there's no Ki power source. Between Martial and Psi, there's already two appropriate power sources innate to all sentient beings. We don't need a third, culture-specific one.
Isn't that like saying we don't need a ninja (culture-specific) to distinguish from a rogue?
Isn't that like saying we don't need a ninja (culture-specific) to distinguish from a rogue?
Yes. Yes, it is. In fact, I follow up by saying precisely that in the same post.
You lost me at "Americans"
Nothing against Americans but I kind of hope that WoTC caters to all their customers, not just Americans.
Why wouldn't they aim their marketing towards the majority of their customer base?
Why wouldn't they aim their marketing towards the majority of their customer base?
Not all Americans are Caucasian in cultural origin.
Not all Americans are Caucasian in cultural origin.
So, you have to be "Caucasian in cultural origin" for statements about Asian influence on American culture in general to apply?
I mean, there's always exceptions, but in general, American kids older than five have some concept (not a good one, but a concept) of what a ninja and a samurai is, as well as possibly some other things Japanese in origin. If they have any concept of Asia other than Japan, it's usually kung fu related. And from there it just gets worse. The predominant Asian influence on American cultural awareness is Japan.
If you're going to try to sell something Asian-themed to Americans in general, it had probably better have Japanese elements in it. That's what is known best among the widest number of people.
Such a book probably wouldn't be my ideal one, but oh well.
Not all Americans are Caucasian in cultural origin.
No kidding? Because living in the San Francisco area I thought everyone was white. I mean looking around at the 9 people in the room, including me there's exactly one white guy. Looking at your profile, you seem to be in Hawaii, so you should know as well as anyone that American does not mean white.
This subject has nothing to do with race and everything to do with nationality. Growing up in America means having a better understanding of western civilization than eastern civilization, regardless of race. Even a second generation Japanese American has a better understanding America and its major cultural influences than he does Japan.
And also... Not every customer is an american at all, or an anglo; I'm a quebecker, canadian citizen.
And two nice posts above me.
BTW, two things: WOTC did have some rpg skills - they worked on Ars Magica which is a cult classic, I am told.
Too bad they gave that away in favor of becoming a TCG company.
I LOVED the original OA, but I think the reason it didn't catch on more is that it didn't jive with the existing rule set in the PHB (it was more of a test of some ideas that later became 2nd edition).
I'd like to see an OA PHB based in Kara-Tur... BUT simply include a line of text saying that you can feel free to drop those islands off of any coast of any campaign world you want. You can then include some suggestions on what the society would look like that is sandwiched between the 'western' areas and the 'eastern' areas.
I am VERY much hoping for a v4 OA... hint hint hint.
I'm actually pretty certain we will see a 4th Ed OA (maybe power source Ki etc) at some point.
Maybe:
Monk – Striker
Sohei – Defender
Shugenja – Leader
Wu-Jen - Controller
You forget the Samurai and Ninja.
Samurai would be a decent Defender/Leader
Ninja - Striker
Of course, my first character with 4th ed is probably going to be a Fighter with Warlord training that is gonna act like the Samurai I play in 3.5.
On the other hand, if OA style classes utilized regular power sources, it might lead to wider adoption of them in regular games. DMs might feel more comfortable with them in their games. Players will have more options for them since they will be compatible with existing power sources.
Some classes don't even need to be new classes. If 4E talent trees are everything WotC says they will be, samurai and ninja might work just as well as talent trees for fighters and rogues. Then there is the added bonus that non-OA players can more easily reflavor those talent trees as an honorable warrior or a mystical assassin or what have you.
I would like to see a 4E OA that offers slightly different takes on the core material that give OA games some good mechanical backing, ie. talent trees, spells, maneuvers, feats, races, etc. Anything short of a separate power source that already overlaps with several others, including a potential psionic one when it comes out.