Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 ravenloftlover347 Nov 09, 2007 17:42:05	Do they still pass on their "curse of lycanthrope" once their undead? What about in the case of if they're an ancient dead? Do they retain their damage reduction, or have the same weakness to it if their undead type has one?
#2 kwdblade Nov 10, 2007 15:08:46	By their definition, zombies and skeletons loss all class and racial abilities. If its some kind of other undead, i'd say yes.
#3 zdb Nov 12, 2007 9:42:34	Weeeeeeell.... don`t know if that is that simple..... You could use that "hole" in the rules, but consider this... Lycantrophy is a disease that affects the living since it comes in the saliva of the lycan, it is a part of a living beign so if it rises as an undead it will be pointless, remember that he is a corpse now. Besides beign more real... If you take lycantropy as "a curse" it would be a necromantic effect. so it would still apply. Apply the same to weaknesess, silver? kick it away!! it was an allegrenic, i`m corpse now!!! im not allergic amymore!!! DR? i was though, now my skin got harder, yes more DR!!!! Etc., think about how things would make sense and chek how would they work
#4 thanael Nov 13, 2007 2:06:33	Sadly this concept is not disallowed officially by WotC. Check here.
#5 kwdblade Nov 13, 2007 3:22:34	A vampire is WAY different than your average undead. From the original post, I am assuming hes just talking about a zombie, in which case, all an undead werewolf would retain would be its extraordinary abilities, which are just improved grab and wolf empathy (although I expect the she-wolves wouldn't find him so appealing anymore :P) All special attacks and most supernatural abilities are lost, and the Curse of Lycanthropy is a supernatural ability, as well as a special attack. However, if it was an ancient dead, I assume it would keep the curse, although it seems relatively weak compared to the curses Ancient Dead can spew. Also, if the ancient dead is the progenitor of the curse, does he technically count as alive? If not, how do you end the curse, cus well, you have to kill him, and hes already dead! Very confusing, but might be a lengthly adventure to figure all that stuff out in-character. Talking Ravenloft terms, however, it wouldn't be so far fetched for the curse to linger into undeath, so it is, of course, the DM's call.
#6 humanbing Nov 13, 2007 3:26:09	I think Baron Ulrik von Kharkov is the closest example I can think of. I believe he does not turn his victims into lycanthropes, merely vampires.
#7 rotipher Nov 13, 2007 10:44:05	Urik was never a lycanthrope, though.
#8 rotipher Nov 13, 2007 10:50:10	Sadly this concept is not disallowed officially by WotC. Check here. DC Comics once had a vampire werewolf as a villain, IIRC. His supervillain-title was "the Twice-Cursed Man", and I believe he was a foe of Mister E. I don't recall details, but I remember an image of him leaping out a window in hybrid form (several stories up) and turning into a bat to fly away. Rather creepy, mostly because it was his perspective from which that particular story was narrated.
#9 rotipher Nov 13, 2007 10:58:35	Also, if the ancient dead is the progenitor of the curse, does he technically count as alive? Since lycanthropy is basically a curse, I'd think that you have to eliminate the source of the curse's evil (i.e. the one who started the chain of contagion). Whether that source is living or undead shouldn't make a difference; the point is to rub out the supernatural taint you've been contaminated by. Best not to overthink these things, IMO. Otherwise, you'll get bogged down in questions like: "If I kill the progenitor and get myself cured, but an evil cleric raises that progenitor from the dead, does my lycanthropy come back?"
#10 rotipher Nov 13, 2007 11:09:37	Do they still pass on their "curse of lycanthrope" once their undead? What about in the case of if they're an ancient dead? I'd recommend letting them pass it on, provided they use the same sort of attack to do so as before. An Ancient Dead's slam attacks wouldn't pass on the curse, but its bite attacks would. A ghost wouldn't be able to pass the curse on unless its target is ethereal. Do they retain their damage reduction, or have the same weakness to it if their undead type has one? DR will overlap. An afflicted werewolf lebendtod, for instance, would have DR 5/silver against magic weapons, DR 10/magic against silver weapons, and DR 10 against weapons that are neither silver nor magical. Weapons both silver and magical would bypass its DR entirely. Weaknesses should likewise overlap if templates are applied, unless (as with a skeletal fire giant's cold vulnerability) the template inherently cancels out a weakness.
#11 ravenloftlover347 Nov 13, 2007 13:18:33	I don't remember where, but I remember seeing something on the web once that said that the lycanthrope uses its animal type for its children of the night and alternate form abilities, but I can't remember if their DR weakness was the same for something I saw about lycanthropes turned into vampires. So, for undead that change forms, would the undead lycanthrope still have be able to change into its hybrid form as well as its animal? What I've seen of vampire werewolves/ werewolf vampires shows that they do, but I think its a bit tweekish for the lycanthrope vampire to have both it lycanthrope alternate form abilities and the ones given from being a vampire. I think it would interesting to see a weretiger vampire whose DR was penetrated by obsidian though. Besides massive amounts of negative energy, is there any way for an undead lycanthrope to be trapped in hybrid form while undead?
#12 zdb Nov 13, 2007 13:50:45	First of all, a lycan can turn into an undead. An undead can`t never change into a lycan. The undead is the end of the evolution chain, the only change it could experiment is to grow as an undead by the passing of time, rituals, etc. Or if they got infused by hellish or abyssal energy (or something like that) they can gain the fiendish or half demon/devil template. Well regarding the DR thing, the values overlap, but whatever bypasses the DR should be considered, i keep my thought that silver, obsidian, etc. should not affect a lycan/undead and magic, holy, evil,etc. should stay. For the shapechange, you need to get the feat to use the undead shapechange form. So you could use it to turn into animal or hybrid form
#13 thanael Nov 14, 2007 6:18:42	I don't remember where, but I remember seeing something on the web once that said that the lycanthrope uses its animal type for its children of the night and alternate form abilities, but I can't remember if their DR weakness was the same for something I saw about lycanthropes turned into vampires. I think you are remembering the article I linked to above. Here's the link again: The Vampire Werewolf (on WotC) Here's the relevant part: Design Notes Many people on the Wizards Message Boards expressed interest in a vampire werewolf, and some even suggested it was an impossible creature. Humanoid werewolf vampires are allowed, even if both are acquired templates. They were not in v. 3.0 because werewolves had the shapechanger type, but now that shapechanger is a subtype it does not prevent vampirism. The only objection to this creature is not that it can or cannot exist, but whether all the lycanthropic forms are available to it. This objection is rooted in the concept that undead cannot use the wild shape ability, as stated in the description of the Corrupt Wildshape feat from Libris Mortis , which says: "You have learned to use the necromantic energy that powers your undead form to overcome the inability of undead creatures to wild shape. You can assume the form of an undead, rotten creature with the use of your wild shape ability." One could claim, therefore, that undead creatures in general cannot use the alternate form ability (upon which wild shape is based) to assume other forms. However, vampires can use the alternate form ability; the template says so specifically. Thus, you could also argue that vampires are an exception to the general principle that undead cannot use the alternate form ability, and allow vampires to change into anything that the base creature could have changed into. It's really up to you, but it makes sense to this author to allow it. If you don't want to, however, then eliminate the hybrid form statistics below and go with the orc and dire wolf form (since vampires can assume dire wolf form) and reduce the physical ability scores on the dire wolf form to normal for a standard dire wolf.
#14 thanael Nov 14, 2007 6:20:04	DC Comics once had a vampire werewolf as a villain, IIRC. His supervillain-title was "the Twice-Cursed Man", and I believe he was a foe of Mister E. Never read much DC, but this is a recurring theme. The movie Underworld 2 has a Lycan/Vampire hybrid, too.
#15 ravenloftlover347 Nov 14, 2007 21:43:39	Actually the article it was from was a 2nd ed. one.