Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 sptjanly Nov 13, 2007 12:14:38	I understand that RL uses either the wheel-lock or snap-lock mechanisms, but outside of those distinctions it leaves a lot of questions. I don't have any modern D20 books, so I don't know if anything about firearm specific rules that are covered within. I have noticed that during the Falkovnian invasion attempts were repelled by Dementlieu's superior technology in guns. That raises the question of how much do bullets ignore armor? My guess and other people that I run with has been that all light and medium armors are ignored, while heavy armors are halved in their protection. Natural and magical bonuses still withstand. Are there scopes that can increase bonuses to hit or crit? Are there rules for point blank shots to the head or body? These aren't arrows or crossbow bolts, so obviously bullets move at a higher velocity. Does the feat and monk ability snatch arrows apply here? Any insight would be helpful or any links to RL specific firearm rules would be great.
#2 zdb Nov 13, 2007 13:35:56	Yes there is a book.... let me remember... Yes! the "Haunted Heroes" I had some rules for guns, i don`t remember them exactly thoug... But they had something like guns ignore physical armor within 15ft. And also that when you scored a hit, and you rolled dmg if you rolled the maximun amount on the dice (like 8 on a 1d8 dice) you kept on rolling as long as you got the maximum. Regarding the monks, snatch ability i would only let epic monks do that. Sine they are ubermonks way over the common monk. But if a common monk wants to try, go ahead my friend if he makes it rol dmg against his hand. And regarding scopes.... mmm don´t know i wouldn´t like that in a game. If anything improves a gun ahould be it`s magical mod, the user`s skill, or a magic item that improves att with rng weapons But that is just my point of view:D
#3 ravenloftlover347 Nov 13, 2007 13:40:19	I have noticed that during the Falkovnian invasion attempts were repelled by Dementlieu's superior technology in guns.. Most firearms have a x3 or x4 for their crit. Are there scopes that can increase bonuses to hit or crit? Well, I've never seen anything about scopes, but I imagine they would give at least a +1 to hit (just like if the gun itself were masterwork). Magical ones could incease the crit. Are there rules for point blank shots to the head or body? If IRC, pbs's follow something similiar to the two-handed rule for one-handed weapons, which was that you add Str * 1 1/2. Now, since firearms don't rely on Str, I'd do it as the damage * 1 1/2. Point blank head shots should be rolled as crits if made IMO. Does the feat and monk ability snatch arrows apply here? This actually is more tricky. It's a DM's preference thing here. If you feel that the bullets move too fast for someone to catch, then no. Otherwise, they still apply. Any insight would be helpful or any links to RL specific firearm rules would be great. http://www.ultramyth.com/renaissance/index.php http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/ Either of those two sites might have what you are looking for. I'd recommend Raveloft Renaissance (the first link) more since it deals more with those kind of things.
#4 highpriestmikhal Nov 13, 2007 14:09:24	For my Masque of the Red Death 1998 game I went back to the 2e rules: Firearms ignore metal armor. Only enhancement bonuses to magical armor offer protection. All other bonus types to AC still count. Mithral and adamantine--and other metals with a Hardness of 12 or higher (not counting bonuses for magical enhancement, but do count the Hardening spell or Matter Manipulation psionic power)--can deflect bullets as easily as arrows and swords. As for scopes, different kinds could offer different bonuses. +1 to +2 to the Attack Roll is one, while doubling (or tripling for really advanced, modern scopes) the Range Increment is more realistic IMO. Magical scopes can offer low-light or darkvision, even true seeing in addition to increasing Attack and Damage, causing effects like Slow, instant death, or paralysis on a successful hit if a save determined by the scope itself is failed.
#5 humanbing Nov 13, 2007 17:17:19	I'd even suggest treating armor merely as DR and ignoring their bonus to AC. If you shoot at somebody wearing plate, you hit just as often as you'd hit a naked man. (In fact arguably more often since he's not able to run as fast.) The plate armor may reduce some damage, but not much. One rule of thumb, borrowed from Arcana Unearthed by WotC, is that the armor has DR equal to half the armor bonus. Thus you really really don't want to wear any armor that would counteract your Dex bonus to AC. It's more important to be able to move fast enough that a gunman can't hit you, rather than hope for your armor to deflect a bullet that does hit home. Note: Yes, yes. House rules all over. Do not call me to complain.
#6 highpriestmikhal Nov 13, 2007 19:26:40	I'd even suggest treating armor merely as DR and ignoring their bonus to AC. If you shoot at somebody wearing plate, you hit just as often as you'd hit a naked man. (In fact arguably more often since he's not able to run as fast.) The plate armor may reduce some damage, but not much. One rule of thumb, borrowed from Arcana Unearthed by WotC, is that the armor has DR equal to half the armor bonus. For firearms it turns out that softer materials are better at stopping (absorbing) the kinetic energy than stiff materials; dragonhide, for example, is one example in my past games of non-metallic armor that offered its full AC bonus because of the strength of the material. Padded, leather, and studded leather worked at their AC bonus -1 (minimum +1), while hide armor worked at its full bonus. In this case metal armor offers no bonus to AC but still reduces the damage, while leather and hide do both. Thus metal would still reduce any actual damage more, but soft materials would be more likely to absorb the attack altogether. No, I'm not going to try and explain it. That's a job for a physicist or a ballistics expert. I just know what works IRL. Come to think of it, in the UA they talk about Class Bonus to AC being used in games where firearms are more common, yet never say word one about guns negating metallic armor in the rules. Error of ommission?
#7 thanael Nov 14, 2007 6:10:46	I understand that RL uses either the wheel-lock or snap-lock mechanisms, but outside of those distinctions it leaves a lot of questions. I don't have any modern D20 books, so I don't know if anything about firearm specific rules that are covered within. There are some basic firearms rules in the 3E DMG (but not in the SRD). And then there is the modern SRD which is available online. Are there scopes that can increase bonuses to hit or crit? The Modern SRD has rules for the modern scope here. Scope A scope is a sighting device that makes it easier to hit targets at long range. However, although a scope magnifies the image of the target, it has a very limited field of view, making it difficult to use. Standard: A standard scope increases the range increment for a ranged weapon by one-half (multiply by 1.5). However, to use a scope a character must spend an attack action acquiring his or her target. If the character changes targets or otherwise lose sight of the target, he or she must reacquire the target to gain the benefit of the scope. Now who would/could have developped optical scopes in the Core, that's another question. Are there rules for point blank shots to the head or body? What you are asking for here is a called shot. The D&D 3E system doesn't and imho shouldn't have this. Sean K Reynolds elaborated why it shouldn't exist in his article Called Shots Do Bad Things to the Game. Use a normal attack in combat. The feats Point-Blank Shot, Sniper Shot etc... apply normally to firearms btw. As does sneak attack, or precision damage if you have it. Use coup-de-grace rules if applicable. (I.e. i shoot the unconscious person in the head) Any insight would be helpful or any links to RL specific firearm rules would be great. The Ravenloft Renaissance site has some very useful firearms stuff for the classical Ravenloft campaign. www.livingdeath.org probably has some more firearms rules (for the Masque of the Red Death) campaign too.
#8 sptjanly Nov 14, 2007 6:57:48	Very good responses everyone. A lot of helpful insight. One last thing. I was wondering if you guys think the prestige class Arcane Archer could be used to create a Dementlieu specific class and it be fitting for the RL setting. Since the university has an outstanding arcane school and firearm usage is at the cutting edge of the core, it would seem that there would be some development for squads of wizard/musketeers to protect the domain. It would look something like this: The Arcane Musketeer Requirements Domain: Dementlieu Native. Alignment: Any Lawful Base Attack: +6. Feats: Exotic Weapon Proficiency Firearms, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Weapon Focus Musket. Spells: Ability to cast 1st lvl arcane spells. The lvl progression would be almost the same as the Arcane Archer found in the DMG except that it deals with bullets instead of arrows, but I am not to sure what to do with the ability Hail of Arrows and Arrow of Death. The death arrow would call for a powers check.
#9 thanael Nov 14, 2007 11:07:58	An interesting idea/adaption. Arrow of Death = Bullet of Death (aka your name is written on that bullet) Hail of Arrows = Arcane Speed Shooting. Van Richten's Arsenal notes that some nations already enchant firearms (in the section on new weapon enchantments). Also there was a very nice article on "Masterwork Firearms" in Quoth the Raven #2 which can be found at at the Fraternity's library. I think it included enchanted firearms too. I would still rather go with the more mundane Pistoleer (from Van Richten's Arsenal) or Black Powder Avenger (from Heroes of Light) prestige classes PS: This free pdf by Monte Cook might also be of interest: http://www.montecook.com/images/Technology.pdf There are also free rules from Iron Kingdoms: http://www.privateerpress.com/docs/privateer_firearms.pdf
#10 dwarfpcfan Nov 15, 2007 10:48:39	In my opinion, the issue of gunf is pretty much solved by adding a single rule: to Ravenloft, the D20 modern massive treshold rule and changing firearm damage to those in d20 modern it solves your problem. In d20 modern massive damage occurs when a character suffers more damage then his constitution score on a single hit not when one takes 50+ damage in a single hit. An once that happens it's fortitute save 15+damage dealt or death. With that said it explains how the Lamordian, Dementlieu and other renaissance level domains beat back the Falkovnian invasion. The average trained soldier is mostly a warrior 1-3 with 12-14 constitution and conscripts would be commoner 1 with something 11-13 constitution. A snaplock musket deals 2d8 crit X2 according to d20 modern Now if you adjust all your muskets to 2d8 the base damage of a dementilieu warrior 1 is between 2-16 at a distance. That means that wenever they roll 11 or more damage, they automatically kill a any typical army soldier and conscript because they either die on the damage and they effectively have no way to make the DC 26 fortitude, instant death! There the dementlieu army decimates the Falkovnian army with musket fire! Now imagine what happens when the typical seasoned veteran carreer soldier starts fireing (fighter6-8). Typically, they's have Weapon Spec, and weapon mastery (PHB2) with point blanck shot and rapid reload (to turn the reload time to a standard action rather then a full round action) Say such a veteran has 16 dexterity and he's 7th level. That means he hits at +11 ranged (or +12 within 30ft) and deals 2D8+4 damage on every hit (or 2D8+5 within 30 ft). Meaning that he deals 6-20 damage or 7-21 within 30 ft. That means he has a good chance to kill even Falkovnian Talon officers (fighter 7) with massive damage (who would themselves would typically fail the massive damage fortitude save because it would be a 30+save since they have around 15 constitution). And there firearms once again dominate a battlefield...
#11 thanael Nov 15, 2007 11:54:34	Commoner 1 are only children or teenagers. Everyone of age should at least have two levels imo. Why should a typical veteran seasoned carreer fighter be CL6-8 and a typical veteran seasoned carreer farmer only CL1 ? If the average soldier is a War1-3 the average conscript should be Com1-3 if not more imho. IMO 1st level (N)PCs are children or adolescents. This is supported by the starting ages for PC classes. NPCs gain XP too. I think that the NPC classes were invented for exactly that. In 2E you had all those 0-lvl humans running around who would die if you so much as looked at them. 3e takes nice care of that. A commoner will advance to level 2 or 3 at least, perhaps level 6 when he dies of old age. Age modifiers will do their part to keep some of his abilities like hps and fighting ability stagnating (or even deteriorating) between levels 3 to 6 while his life experience increases his skills and abilities (feats). Level 1 commmoners have to be either very young or very inexperienced IMO. I'm of course referring to SKR's Theory about peasants and the great Level advancement over a lifetime, and the Common Commoner discussions. For nice examples see also MavrickWeirdo's: Commoner over a lifetime NPC guard over lifetime Elf Commoner over a lifetime NPC Expert over a lifetime Expert vs. Commoner over a lifetime Runners (There's a half-orc warrior who guards a wizard somewhere too, if anybody can provide a link I'd be grateful) ...and Blackdirge's: Orc warrior NPC throughout his life Gnoll NPC adept throughout his life and beyond Half-Ogre Wizard NPC throughout a lifetime My rant on NPC levels aside, I can see how the modern massive damage rule would increase firearms' lethality, but should not the same rule then apply to other weapons and/or magic attacks too?
#12 sptjanly Nov 15, 2007 12:51:59	They weren't messing around when they made the modern D20 threshold rule. Do the primitive firearm types found in RL fall under the umbrella of this rule. Or did they gloss over it with a wide stroke and just say firearms as a whole.
#13 kwdblade Nov 15, 2007 12:55:21	I think you guys are overthinking this, I mean, its just story background of a domain, I doubt the writers sat down and said "gee, how can we write this to make in-character sense?" It was pretty much explained anyways; firearms beat swords. Full-plated warriors charging lines of musketmen lose. Period. Also, keep in mind that in the Gazetteer, and in the domains description, Falkovnia is destined to lose, its the darklords curse. They mentioned that the Falkovnians actually DID break the lines, but then the soldiers either surrendered or turned on each other.
#14 sptjanly Nov 15, 2007 13:14:36	Well, since firearms introduced to any society and world is a leap and bound in warfare. Not far down there road up we looking at cannons and then eventually hand cranked machine-guns. It changes worlds so much that I was just looking for concrete rules instead of just treating them like bows and crossbows. RL as a setting encourages full development in character, science/technology, religion, magic, ect or at least that is they way I interpret the books and how the games I play in are run. Making it one reason I feel it is meant for mature players, not because simply it is gothic horror. While in most other settings they take the approach, "It just is or this simple reason is why" and most people are satisfied and move on to enjoying the game. Not to say that other settings can't take a mature approach, but what is the point of introducing such a science and not giving the full details in RL.
#15 highpriestmikhal Nov 15, 2007 19:12:44	Good points all around. That's why my PCs had such a love-hate relationship with firearms. On the one hand they'll pierce even magical (steel) armor so they didn't need to get a high Attack Roll to hit. And at 1d10, even a pistol could be an instant kill at lower levels. On the other hand they were just as vulnerable unless they used magic or exotic materials, and more than once the PCs went from full health to dying almost instantly because of these rules. So if you have firearms in your game, you have to make another choice: Do they ignore metallic armor in favor of realism? Or do you rule they don't and not worry about it? With the former you have to also explore the social implications--the abandoning of armor, easily trained peasant armies, knights losing status, the list goes on. And ask yourself this: firearms in RL need both ball and powder to work while a bow just needs an arrow and can be made Mighty to rival or exceed even an enchanted musket. So why use guns when they take longer to reload, can be fouled by water, and are very expensive unless they offer some serious benefits?
#16 zdb Nov 16, 2007 7:11:08	Just 2 things 1st - In that time, firearms were only for soldiers, or the rich it was a thing of social status, and were expensive as hell, that is why you may still want a bow 2nd - Do firearms ignore Natural armor? Dex counts, dodge bonuses count, magical bonuses count, deflection bonuses count, physical armor (DM`s taste), but natural armor????????????????????????????????
#17 humanbing Nov 16, 2007 7:18:19	I'd count it almost as a touch attack (with damage resistance). If you agree with this interpretation, then natural armor doesn't count for the hit roll, though it might well count for DR.
#18 zdb Nov 16, 2007 7:28:13	Yes you are rigth, it does not prevent the hit. But it will reduce the dmg caused by the hit. Tnx a lot
#19 dwarfpcfan Nov 16, 2007 10:07:47	My rant on NPC levels aside, I can see how the modern massive damage rule would increase firearms' lethality, but should not the same rule then apply to other weapons and/or magic attacks too? Yes in d20 modern the massive damage thresehold rule applies to all sources of damage Combat can be quite lethal in modern if your fortitude save is low enough of And Thanael, does'nt Falkovnia enfore massive conscriptions anyway? meaning that yes most conscripts would be kids and low level characters with NPC classes;) That said, when I play Ravenloft I usually make sure everyone's clear on firearms and the lethality level in my games (usually very high to keep the fear) And yes, I usually enforce the D20 modern massive damage rule in my Ravenloft games on every aspect of damage, period, Just like in D20 modern