If this has been covered, please feel free to point me in the right direction.
Thanks!
I actually have come to like the Gaz quite a bit in some recent rereads- there is a lot of stuff there that is very good and well thought out, but it is sadly overshadowed by the bad (the humor bits). I think the presentation could have been stronger, and there is a bit too much of a sense of "let's throw this at the wall and see if it sticks", but quite a bit of coolness in there nevertheless, IMO.
It really just could have benefited greatly from more focus. If they'd have gone with a primarily Caribbean feel to it (replace the Hawaiian natives/place names with Carib; make the pirates/navy blend more with their historic Caribbean counterparts; etc.), I think it would have been a better product, rather than spreading it out so much.
Pirates, White Druids and Firemages are all pretty cool elements to the setting.
If the gazetteer was to be revised, say as a Fan Gazetteer, I would like to make Ierendi a Pirate Realm primarily with a quasi Caribbean flavour. Druids and Firemages should be kept and the remaining official elements should be moved to the background. The Choosing of the King and Queen for instance could still be a ritualized game held by the pirates, while it should be made clear that they are only figureheads and the Tribunal are the real leaders of the realm.
The Islands, revised:
Alcove Island: The true Pirate haven of the islands
Aloysius Island: This island is a penal colony filled with dangerous individuals. Also a good place for pirates to ditch mutineers.
Elegy Island: Populated mainly by natives, who are known for their burial grounds. Thar be undead.
Fletcher Island: This island is primarily inhabited by Voodoo practicing natives.
Honor Island: Home of the secretive Fire Mages. The mages are of Alphatian origin and help make sure that Ierendi's waters remain free of forreign powers.
Ierendi Island: This is the main island of the realm. The people here claim to have put their pirating ways behind them, having founded a semi-respectable nation, but do little to prevent pirates of all sorts to be welcomed in port. The Freeport material is ideally adapted to Ierendi City.
Roister Island: An island plagued by Sea Monsters, inhabited primarily by natives.
Safari Island: Renamed Satari Island. No Safaris here, but an island filled with monsters and ruins from an ancient Lizardman civilization (See Freeport line for further ideas).
Utter Island: Home of the mysterious Albino people.
White Island: Home of the Whitenight Druids. Perhaps these could also be presented as Voodoo practitioners? They are of Nithian origin, but may still have mixed with the natives.
Religion on the Islands:
Pirates come from all over the Known World, thus most Immortals may be worshipped. The People's Temple could be turned into a kind of Caribbean style religion where natives worship Thyatian Immortals by day and something else by night. The Eternal Truth may still be popular as per the gaz.
Thoughts?
Havard
I like it, but taking a look at a few of Thorf's maps of the region, I was thinking of going more Asian, when I remembr the thread I posted here... it was going to require a major overhaul, and I have enough projects to occupy me.
As Andrew said, most of the names are probably Hawaiian. An Asian Ierendi could work, but why would an Asian culture exist in that region? Unless you by Asian mean something ala Sind. Not sure if a Carib culture would fit better in that sense, but it does help enforce a Pirate-style atmosphere much more than an Hawaiian culture does.
Besides, we already have a disease making people behave like Zombies. Why not make them into actual Zombies?
And Why not turn the White Abbey Druids into the White Hougans?
I forgot to bring in the idea someone else came up with linking the Albinos of Utter Island with the Taymorans.
Rhialto: I would love to see someone make a fan gaz like project for this. Perhaps it could be called a "Gazetteer Expansion" instead of a gaz? This could be the beginning of a whole series of fan created products.
Havard
However, Safari Island, like Fantasy Island, was, is, remains, always will be, stupid.
Thank you very much!
As Andrew said, most of the names are probably Hawaiian. An Asian Ierendi could work, but why would an Asian culture exist in that region?
Why not?
That was always one of the things that humoured me with the whole you can't have the Northern Reaches next to Ylaruam argument. We're OK with a world with elves and dwarves, and dragons, and magic, and immortals, and what all else, but suddenly you stick two cultures next to each other which are based on Earth cultures which didn't occur next to each other and suddenly it's a problem.
Judging from http://www.pandius.com/prodlist.html, only the following official products seem to cover the area at all:
X10 Red Arrow, Black Shield
GAZ4 Kingdom of Ierendi
PC3 The Sea People (Undersea)
WotI boxed campaign set
AC-series almanac entries for Ierendi
It seems then, that if we regard GAZ4 as the ravings of a drunken lunatic non-canon, there is very little to force Ierendi to be the tourist trap it was presented as. If I missed any products that might be relevant, can someone shout out to me please?
Why not?
That was always one of the things that humoured me with the whole you can't have the Northern Reaches next to Ylaruam argument. We're OK with a world with elves and dwarves, and dragons, and magic, and immortals, and what all else, but suddenly you stick two cultures next to each other which are based on Earth cultures which didn't occur next to each other and suddenly it's a problem.
Hmmm, yes it boils down to a matter of personal taste I guess. I like trying to make my Mystaran cultures make a little sense even though it is quite a challenge to do so. Having magic and such should not have too much of an impact on this IMO, and I prefer to use magic as an explaination for why things are the way they are as little as possible. Generally I try to keep the Known World as European as possible. Ethengar, Ylaruam and Athruagin are existing exceptions to this situation, but I'd rather not have more.
But since I on the other hand am arguing to have the Ierendi natives as West Indians I realize I might not be coming off as too convincing. :P
The big advantage of having them as West Indians is as I mentioned to strengthen the Pirate element of the islands. The islands already have pirates, and Pirates and Caribbeans fit very well together. Im not ruling out my own ignorance of Hawaiian culture as something that makes me less enthusiastic about using them in this part of Mystara.
Now, if we want to rationalize it: The West Indians have elements of Amerind and African (former slave) culture combined with the influence of the European colonizers. Ierendi is close to Athruagin and if no traditional African influence, was in fact a Nithian colony. Also, Thyatian colonizers accounts for a "European influence".
Now that Im thinking about it, I realize that more than ethnicity, what I want is a somewhat menacing (not evil) culture with Vodoo practices rather than the current seemingly harmonious and relatively passive population. This last part should not be taken as criticism of real world cultures, but of how the Makai are presented in the Gaz.
Rhialto: your Greek version sounds interesting as well. I'll try and post more on that later.
Havard
The germ of a gaz expansion is forming in my mind, re-casting Ierendi as a backwater Greek islands style culture with rather less tourism in it.
As it turns out, something like this has already been attempted almost a decade ago: http://pandius.com/ierendi2.html
Of course, it's mainly just a timeline, but there are lots of worthwhile ideas (as can be expected of Sharon Dornhoff).
- Maladax
That said, the greek influenced idea could also be done well. Tough choice really.
That was always one of the things that humoured me with the whole you can't have the Northern Reaches next to Ylaruam argument. We're OK with a world with elves and dwarves, and dragons, and magic, and immortals, and what all else, but suddenly you stick two cultures next to each other which are based on Earth cultures which didn't occur next to each other and suddenly it's a problem.
I am in total agreement with this sentiment, myself. Heck, we've even got cultures plopped right next to one another that are from different time periods within the same culture (Vilaverde and Texeiras, or at least one of those Savage Baronies).
Mind, this is speaking as someone who used to feel the pangs of conflict over the incongruity, so I'm not unsympathetic to the notion, just no longer bothered by it in the least.
I was just thinking about my earlier post in this thread the other night in regards to this notion and my concerns (in re: the Hawaii thing), and had meant to clarify that I don't really see any problems with plopping the Hawaiian culture in there alongside the Caribbean "pirate" sort of culture- there really isn't any reason they are incompatible, frankly. My main reason for suggesting using the actual Carib culture instead had more to do with the notion that a) again, too many different ideas in the Gaz that didn't get enough development, and b) a polynesian style culture was already in evidence on Mystara at that point (the Kara-kara and, possibly, the Thanegioth Archipelago, though I'd have to double check, as I think they are more "generic" islanders as presented in X1), rather than any conflicts of RW geography/history/culture.
As it turns out, something like this has already been attempted almost a decade ago: http://pandius.com/ierendi2.html
Of course, it's mainly just a timeline, but there are lots of worthwhile ideas (as can be expected of Sharon Dornhoff).
Wow Maladax, good find! Now Im really up by this. Sharon's timeline is really good. My only problem with this is that I am working on another region to be based on ancient Greece (Minaea), but I guess that's not really a good argument. Now if we make this Byzantine Greece, maybe even with a hint of Malta in there this is really beginning to look like something. This would make Ierendi more like it appeared in X10 and possibly even the Expert set. Pirates does not neccessarily mean Caribbean style Pirates, though that is usually my first association.
I could see moving my unofficial Caribbean Pirates culture to the Western Thanegioth. It would make sense to have it removed a bit from the Known World...
Havard
Sorry, but seeing as I am Maltese, the opportunity to recast Ierendi as Mystaran Malta is just too tempting :D
Did someone mention Malta?
Sorry, but seeing as I am Maltese, the opportunity to recast Ierendi as Mystaran Malta is just too tempting :D
Malta is fairly interesting, also from a fantasy perspective...
Havard
Wow Maladax, good find! Now Im really up by this. Sharon's timeline is really good. My only problem with this is that I am working on another region to be based on ancient Greece (Minaea), but I guess that's not really a good argument. Now if we make this Byzantine Greece, maybe even with a hint of Malta in there this is really beginning to look like something. This would make Ierendi more like it appeared in X10 and possibly even the Expert set. Pirates does not neccessarily mean Caribbean style Pirates, though that is usually my first association.
I could see moving my unofficial Caribbean Pirates culture to the Western Thanegioth. It would make sense to have it removed a bit from the Known World...
Havard
But... but... Captain Jack is such a natural for Mystara. Ierendi as the West Indies of the eighteenth century seems like an ideal fit to me.
Hmmm, yes it boils down to a matter of personal taste I guess. I like trying to make my Mystaran cultures make a little sense even though it is quite a challenge to do so. Having magic and such should not have too much of an impact on this IMO, and I prefer to use magic as an explaination for why things are the way they are as little as possible.
Sorry I didn't explain myself well. I didn't mean that we should explain away cultural "inconsistencies" by magic. What I meant was that we have a world with such fantastic elements such as magic, and dragons, and elves, etc etc. I'm not suggesting that cultural "inconsistencies" should be considered fantastic in the same way, or not, but if we can suspend our disbelief for magic, why can't we suspend it for cultural "inconsistencies"?
I am in total agreement with this sentiment, myself. Heck, we've even got cultures plopped right next to one another that are from different time periods within the same culture (Vilaverde and Texeiras, or at least one of those Savage Baronies).
Mind, this is speaking as someone who used to feel the pangs of conflict over the incongruity, so I'm not unsympathetic to the notion, just no longer bothered by it in the least.
I'm also not unsympathetic to the notion, or people's efforts to smooth over incongruities. I do however believe that if there's a good story to be told by having a cultural "inconsistency" or it just kind of seems interesting, and creates a world where that might make it an interesting aspect to play within then not doing it just because it's inconsistent is a bad idea.
I'm also not unsympathetic to the notion, or people's efforts to smooth over incongruities. I do however believe that if there's a good story to be told by having a cultural "inconsistency" or it just kind of seems interesting, and creates a world where that might make it an interesting aspect to play within then not doing it just because it's inconsistent is a bad idea.
Along those lines, much as I love the Mystara/RW inspirations, I wouldn't have minded seeing a little bit more attention paid to how plopping those cultures in a fantastic environment, alongside incongruous other cultures, would/should have played out and affected their progress. Instead, in some cases, we just got retreads of RW cultures, without such exploration of changes thereby wrought. (The Northern Reaches, Ethengar, Atruaghin, all stand out as notable cases here, and at least two of those are among my favorite RW cultures to study).
I think there has been a lot of work done by the Mystara community that has explored this, and done so very well, but I don't think the official products went quite far enough with it, and instead we ended up getting almost verbatim history/ethnographic books instead.
(Though, to be honest, I don't think Mystara got that in nearly the extremes as some other worlds- the Realms were poorly served by the dropping in of Kara-Tur to that world, frankly; or at least it was handled rather lamely, even getting an almost exact blow-by-blow rehash of Genghis Khan's history. Mulhorand and Unther likewise were poor fits for that setting, and the whole Maztica thing seemed rather poorly conceived to me as well.)
But... but... Captain Jack is such a natural for Mystara. Ierendi as the West Indies of the eighteenth century seems like an ideal fit to me.
I think so myself, especially with the Minrothad Guilds right next door, which seem very much in that vein as well (but then, I'm on record as likening them to the East India Companies- British and/or Dutch; though I believe it was yourself who mentioned the Hanseatic League as a- possibly more apt- comparison for the Guilds, on which point I am currently torn.
)Wow Maladax, good find! Now Im really up by this. Sharon's timeline is really good. My only problem with this is that I am working on another region to be based on ancient Greece (Minaea), but I guess that's not really a good argument. Now if we make this Byzantine Greece, maybe even with a hint of Malta in there this is really beginning to look like something. This would make Ierendi more like it appeared in X10 and possibly even the Expert set. Pirates does not neccessarily mean Caribbean style Pirates, though that is usually my first association.
Havard
Somehow missed this the first time through...
I have had some similar thoughts on this nation (although mine lead to a early Augustan Rome for a base, as a counterpoint to Thyatis as Constantinople of Justinian). Are you looking at Minoan, or perhaps the Athenian Empire as a base? I've wanted to tie it to refugees from the Milenian Empire (much like the early Thyatians) but I haven't gotten much farther than some preliminary ideas.
The following is all still very much subject to change.
My notes so far:
Makai are replaced with natives of ethnic Traldar stock. Culturally, they worship an earth mother goddess, most usually symbolised by a headless and obese female statue. The rest of history is broadly the same as the GAZ, including Mad Creeg (now forgotten in favour of the popular founding myth) as the founder of the modern Ierendi nation.
Government:
The main government is an oligarchy composed of the heads of the wealthiest merchant families. In addition to the heads of the half dozen or so wealthiest families, two members of the ruling council are the king and queen, who are chosen by an annual tournament. One a year, a challenger can try to replace the existing king or queen. The fight is a one on one combat to serious injury (10 hp or less) or surrender, with clerics on stand-by to heal the combatants after the fight. The king and queen each have a single vote, equal to the family oligarchs.
In practice, the oligarchs tend to present a united front, such that the king and queen do not have any effective power. Even when not united, the king and queen seldom have enough power within the council to actually have any effect on government policy. However, their social and ceremonial status is considerable, and even after losing the royal title, they will be recognised by foreign governments with a rank equivalent to a senior ambassador. The king and queen receive a stipend of 2500 gp per year, and can appoint up to 4 ministers-without-portfolio, who receive 250 gp per year.
Specific areas of special interest for the oligarchy often have sub-councils assigned to administer them. Notable among these are the departments of agriculture (also hunting and fishing), foreign affairs, customs and assessment (tax collection and anti-smuggling), and internal affairs (road building and maintenance of public utilities). Members of these councils are typically either minor scions of the oligarchic families, or rewards granted to adventurers (who tend to be in absentia due to the dullness of the jobs).
Sorry I didn't explain myself well. I didn't mean that we should explain away cultural "inconsistencies" by magic. What I meant was that we have a world with such fantastic elements such as magic, and dragons, and elves, etc etc. I'm not suggesting that cultural "inconsistencies" should be considered fantastic in the same way, or not, but if we can suspend our disbelief for magic, why can't we suspend it for cultural "inconsistencies"?
Hmmm...it depends..
But then you also said:
I'm also not unsympathetic to the notion, or people's efforts to smooth over incongruities. I do however believe that if there's a good story to be told by having a cultural "inconsistency" or it just kind of seems interesting, and creates a world where that might make it an interesting aspect to play within then not doing it just because it's inconsistent is a bad idea.
Now I agree with you. Interesting/fun/game friendly and inconsistant is way better than consistant, logical and boring.
This is why I have much less of a problem with other Known World countries than I have with Ierendi. Many aspects of Ierendi are both inconsistant with its surroundings and not particularly interesting.
I wouldnt rule out an Hawaiian setting per se either, but with the way the Makai are presented in the gaz there is nothing that makes me want to use them IMC.
Havard
though I believe it was yourself who mentioned the Hanseatic League as a- possibly more apt- comparison for the Guilds, on which point I am currently torn. )
Actually, that would be me, at least in the recent few months.
As to the matter of incongruencies based on RW relations, I'm reminded of a interesting post years ago on the Star Wars message boards. The poster argued that the opening credits were wrong that the films took place "a long time ago." He/she argued that since everyone in the film spoke English, clearly they had to take place in the future.
RW inspiration is not the same as RW homologue or isomorphism.
As it currently stands, Ierendi's sort of a hodgepodge: the natives are clearly Hawaiian, the penal colony history (and one of the islands still) has echoes of Australia, the pirates bring a Caribbean flavor, the navy brings a sort of English imperialist feeling almost (at least in the sense of them ruling the seas- echoes of the British triumphing over the Spanish Armada), the aforementioned "theme park" notion, and then several tongue-in-cheek "homages" to popular US fiction (Magnum PI, Miami Vice, etc.). There's also a little bit of Egypt in there, to boot.
I actually have come to like the Gaz quite a bit in some recent rereads- there is a lot of stuff there that is very good and well thought out, but it is sadly overshadowed by the bad (the humor bits). I think the presentation could have been stronger, and there is a bit too much of a sense of "let's throw this at the wall and see if it sticks", but quite a bit of coolness in there nevertheless, IMO.
Curious, so I'm not the only one who likes the Gazetteer. Always found it quirky, but also an entertaining read. I might tone down the themeparks, but otherwise I'd keep the hodgepodge of cultures.
One of the central things for me, are all the mysteries that are hiding underneath the touristy feel of the islands. On the surface everything is fun and amusement, and yet everything is build on top of mysteries. In that sense the Lizardmen are important to my interpretation of the islands. Sort of the tragic tale of a dying indigenious culture, that is one of the few to still remember the Nithians.
I have considered a campaign that revealed The Secret History of Mystara (with focus on the Nithians) beginning with som innocent investigations into a missing sage on the Ierendian Islands. Everybody assumed that he simply ditched his research and partied away his money, but an heir or two wants somebody to look into it.
So after dealing with the temptations of Ierendi, the search for the Sage leads to inquiries into the Lizardmen and the past, they are the last guardians of.