Matthew L. Martin wrote:
I didn't notice the 1st time through how inconsistent Rise and Fall of a Dragon King was!
Thats because its garbage canon wise.
While entertaining, RaFoaDK had as much to do with the Dark Sun Setting as the Wookie X-mas Special had to do with the Star Wars Universe.
Thats because its garbage canon wise.
While entertaining, RaFoaDK had as much to do with the Dark Sun Setting as the Wookie X-mas Special had to do with the Star Wars Universe.
What really struck me was how she appearently did even have access to a map of the setting to look at!!! Draj between Urik and Raam WTF!!
What really struck me was how she appearently did even have access to a map of the setting to look at!!! Draj between Urik and Raam WTF!!
GPS units on Darksun also don't work that well either.
Thats because its garbage canon wise.
While entertaining, RaFoaDK had as much to do with the Dark Sun Setting as the Wookie X-mas Special had to do with the Star Wars Universe.
RaFoaDK feels more like Dark Sun then everything from the revised DS ;), i still try to forget the bull*s*h*i*t they tried to sell us as Canon. Ktandeo an Halfling, yeah right XD.
The Ktandao halfling incident actually came to be because the artist responsible for the illustration in Psionic Artifacts of Athas botched and made him look like a halfling. Thus the editor - not Melka - changed him to a halfling.
Hm, IIRC Melka himself claimed that Ktandeo was an Hafling and that Denning did a mistake, on the Dark Sun mailing list :D.
Anyway, the revised campaign had not half the Dark Sun flavor Lynn Abbeys books had IMHO.
The revised stuff was like the Forgotten Realms on Athas ;).
Kevin Melka personally is my source for the information I posted. I also believe he posted the story on these boards.
I think the champions being immature dragons early on makes alot of sense.
It doesn't matter much, in the end, years after the facts, if it made sense or not. Taken independently from all the stuff that puts it at odds with canon, its an eye opener. The characters have the most depth to be seen yet in a DS novel, although it was mostly Pavek, Hamanu, and Windreaver that were realised, the rest being the supporting cast. Even Sadira making an appearance and ending up being nothing more than a sideline to Hamanu's millenial life. He's a showstopped. Denning failed to tell us anything worth knowing about those SKs he made us meet - Kalak, Andro, Borys, Abalach - yet Abbey revealed so much about the personalities of Hamanu and Sielba.
Probably it was because the characters seemed far less super heroic and we got a real look at how an Athas city existed on the various social levels. Denning tried to do this, but ended up only showing a glossy cliff notes version as he wrote his epic plot arc.
Masato - do you have said alleged post?
Kevin Melka personally is my source for the information I posted. I also believe he posted the story on these boards.
Unfortunately the oldest post, in the Dark Sun mailing list archive, is from the year 1999, but i should have the earlier years on CD, for backup
. I will search for said post when i'm back from my holidays ;).I enjoyed reading RaFoaDK, but had to force myself to finish the Pentad. Kind of ironic, since the Pentad was the beginning of it all.
The First three Books of the PP are good IMO but the last two, especially the last one, are kind of "difficult".
Abbeys books are the best XD.
so are they reprinting the entire DS novel line
Possibly.
and if so will they release new novels after that?
Maybe.
is this a sign they may release a 4e DS?
Dunno. There's a chance, WotC seems to want to start releasing a lot of campaign settings for 4e. That could possibly include Dark Sun, but then it might not.
i can't understand fans not wanting new novels. ofcourse old people will die or not be included but what we can get in return may well be worth it.
i would really like to see the new books deal with dregoth, not sure if they ever wrote novels of dregoth but it would be great if they did.
I'v also always wanted the war between gulg and nibenay to finally happen and one of the dragons fall.
a new advanced being would be nice too.
What isues do peopel have with RaFoaDK? There are minor ones like the location of the cities mentioned is wrong but that was due to the state TSR was in and Abbey not being supplied with the right info wasn't it.
Primary sources never state when the Champions become Dragons. It was hinted at in the revised boxed set that they could have been Dragons when Rajaat changed the suns colour hinting they could be a being of dark power or somesuch (ie fully transformed Dragon).
Dregoth was also a Dragon before the Champions became Sorcerer Kings. Option B is he became a level 29 Dragon in roughly 80 odd years. The Champions would also have to be Dragons to survive the Cleansing Wars for the immortality. Rajaat energy changed the suns colour- what makes more sense.
A. Rajaat syphons off the suns energy and his champions are now immortal and can use obsidian orbs to power their magic.
B. Rajaat turns all his champions in level 1 Dragons which uses enough energy to change the colour of the sun. Being level 1 Dragons they're now immortal and can use obsidian orbs.
I suppose you could just ignore Rise and Fall and City by the Silt Sea though if it doesn't fit with your vision of Athas. How about Hamanu being a fully transformed Dragon now- The Dragon of Tyr is dead, heres the Dragon of Urik. Of course DS products didn't make RaFoaDK canon as such (mentioning its events) but Abbeys books were both the latest timeline updates we had (Brazen Gambit was FY 15 for example) but RaFoaDK was one of the last Dark Sun products published. Heres a new novel BTW TSR has now been sold and DS is cancelled.
I'm reasonably sure there is no product from TSR set after RaFoaDK?
Dregoth was mentioned in Rise and Fall of a Dragon King.
What isues do peopel have with RaFoaDK? There are minor ones like the location of the cities mentioned is wrong but that was due to the state TSR was in and Abbey not being supplied with the right info wasn't it.
Significant timeline alterations, rewriting of when and how things transpired with the Champions, liberal "free and loose" redefining of the roles of the Champions including the addition of new undocumented Champions. Oh, and having Hamanu turn into a fully developed Dragon to only get killed a few pages later. To name a few.
Primary sources never state when the Champions become Dragons. It was hinted at in the revised boxed set that they could have been Dragons when Rajaat changed the suns colour hinting they could be a being of dark power or somesuch (ie fully transformed Dragon).
Not entirely true. Pretty certain that there is a passage with a clear reference stating that Borys used the Dark Lens to initiate the Dragon Metamorphosis in the other rebel Champions, and they in turn used it with their new power to make him into the fully-transformed Dragon. There also is, in the game materials, the details as to how the Templars came to be, and that it is tied directly to Borys' use of the Dark Lens to initiate the metamorphoses within his peers and himself.
Dregoth was also a Dragon before the Champions became Sorcerer Kings. Option B is he became a level 29 Dragon in roughly 80 odd years. The Champions would also have to be Dragons to survive the Cleansing Wars for the immortality. Rajaat energy changed the suns colour- what makes more sense.
That's another one of the oddities. Personally, I like the idea that Dregoth created the Dragon Metamorphosis spell series, if only because it helps explain what he may have been doing during the Cleansing Wars in Giustenal rather than killin ghte rest of the Giants.
Currently, the only thing which seems to be changing the Sun's color is the Pristine Tower. Which it has done, a couple times in history.
A. Rajaat syphons off the suns energy and his champions are now immortal and can use obsidian orbs to power their magic.
The Pristine Tower siphons off the sun's energy to do what it does. Rajaat desecrated the Pristine Tower, and with some help from his Halfling associates restructured it to do his bidding. He used the tower to make his Immortal Champions (sans Templars and Dragonhood), which in effect drained the Sun making it turn dark red.
B. Rajaat turns all his champions in level 1 Dragons which uses enough energy to change the colour of the sun. Being level 1 Dragons they're now immortal and can use obsidian orbs.
See, I don't like that. Honestly, I don't see why Dragonhood is necessary for someone to figure out how to use obsidian to focus magic energy from animals. Ktaendo's Cane seems to imply that it doesn't take a Dragon to do so.
I suppose you could just ignore Rise and Fall and City by the Silt Sea though if it doesn't fit with your vision of Athas. How about Hamanu being a fully transformed Dragon now- The Dragon of Tyr is dead, heres the Dragon of Urik. Of course DS products didn't make RaFoaDK canon as such (mentioning its events) but Abbeys books were both the latest timeline updates we had (Brazen Gambit was FY 15 for example) but RaFoaDK was one of the last Dark Sun products published. Heres a new novel BTW TSR has now been sold and DS is cancelled.
There are ideas that Rise and Fall has I like. There are parts it has I don't care for. The same can be said about a lot of Dark Sun's products in varying degrees. City by the Silt Sea has almost no relation to Rise and Fall of a Dragon King at all (If it did, why does Dregoth have an undead army in Rise and Fall, but a Dray army [the Army of Light] in City by the Silt Sea?)
I'm reasonably sure there is no product from TSR set after RaFoaDK?
Well, there was Dregoth Ascending, which totally nixes the Rise and Fall of a Dragon King idea for Hamanu, since it is set after the events of Rise and Fall (and it was originally a TSR release, but never finished the editing process). Rise and Fall wasn't the last product, to my knowledge. Dregoth Ascending also had the latest "official" timeline, to my knowledge.
Also Dregoths Ascending wasn't released by TSR so its hard for a novel to comply with material that hasn't been released when it was printed.
I liked RaF as it was perhaps the best (as in entertaining) of the Dark Sun novels. I don't care about minor inaccuracies in it but I liked the main tideas (SKs as Dragons before Borys used the lens, Hamanu becomes a full Dragon which explains alot in the Prism Pentad).
I don't like Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, but like it or not its canon. Pretending it doesn't exist is like pretending the Prism Pentad doesn't exist (which may not be a bad thing come to think of it).
IIRC theres no definitive primary product source that states when the Champions became Dragons but its hinted at in various sources, RaFoaDK plain out states it and Dregoth is a Dragon before the Champions Rebellion against Rajaat in City by the Silt Sea..
I never read the line in DK (I think it's in that book, anyway) that says it was Borys, on the day of the rebellion against their master, that turned the champions into dragons. It's one line, out of an entire book. I'm sure I'm one of many who never read it until someone else pointed it out. That's how I found out about it too.
So, when I read RaFoaDK, unaware of that line in DK, the novel was, thus, the only DS material that stated anything about dragonhood and championhood and when they occured. Many of us, like me, read the explanation offered in it and found it good. And just like me, went on believing it as canon and as a good, logical idea. Then we came here on the boards and were told the contrary, with supporting proof. The problem for us was not that the official explanation - that line in DK - wasn't as good or any better than RaFoaDK's explanation, no, in fact the problem was that the explanation was lame. To this day, many of us, like me, still hold it that the champion process has dragonhood as part of it, like Abbey said, and that all of it was instigated by Rajaat. In our opinion it's a superior concept.
Now there is something to be said about officialness and all that, so we can all work together in peace and harmony, but I won't ever be swayed towards thinking Borys or Dregoth came up with the process of dragonhood.
I hope I managed to voice the opinion of the opposition here
It's the opinion I came up here with in 2003, and butted heads with others on. I've held it close to heart ever since, in secret, without voicing it much. This here is one of my rare forays into argumenting on the subject.IIRC theres no definitive primary product source that states when the Champions became Dragons but its hinted at in various sources, RaFoaDK plain out states it and Dregoth is a Dragon before the Champions Rebellion against Rajaat in City by the Silt Sea..
This reminds me...
Brax has in one of his unpublished projects - which I got the chance to read a bit - a piece of ancient history which mentions that a champion during the Cleansing Wars had templars with him. Now unless the meaning of "templar" - i.e. a guy receiving divine spells from a SK/champion - is twisted to mean any supporting military guy assigned to a champion....there will be some rewriting needed to be done. It's a very minor detail mind you, with zero impact on the product's plot and stuff, sure, but I was telling myself "What in god's name is that doing here?"
Sure, I would like for that erroneous passage to stay in Brax's product, for templars to have been there before the champions became SKs, just like Abbey said, but officalness/canon says the happy day templar-making abilities were granted to champions was the day they rebelled against Rajaat. It's one of the gifts from Borys....according to that one passage in DK. Oh do I wish that one passage could be just...gahhh! If only I could return in the past and snipe it out before it went to print, there would not be two camps amongst the fans, there would just be Abbey's explanation as the only available explanation, and boy does that explanation sound a lot better than DK's.
Maybe for some it's like smelly cheese, it's an acquired taste ;)
I think the Champions become Dragons around FY -3500 a'la RaFoaDK, City by the Sea of Silt and hints in the revised campaign setting.
I think the Champions gained the ability to grant Templars spells when Borys used the dark lens just after Rajaat was thrown away for good and used the dark lens/pristine tower (can't remember right now). to complete his transformation to full dragon (he cheated). Around FY -2000
Any Templars before then IMHO would have been similar to the Templars on earth- a religous or military order (maybe both).
Now now Zardnaar, we can't possibly have confusion in the ranks. This is a war, man, choose sides or get left behind!
/hehehe :P
Hell I'll try explaining it tomorrow after I reread some things- I could be interpreting some source material wrong.
I think Xlorep is cranking up the anti here a bit, like many have done and many will.
No, I simply was responding to:
What isues do peopel have with RaFoaDK?
And listed the issues I had with RaFoaDK. Nothing more.
Remember Penn, I like RaFoaDK. I think it is a great book (and now that I finally have been able to complete my DS novel collection, I finally got to read her other two books, and like those as well). I think Lynn Abbey did an incredible job making books that express the feel and themes of Dark Sun. I think there are inaccuracies with her materials, but they are understandable due to the communication breakdowns that were happening across TSR. My solution to handling what I feel are inaccuracies in Dark Sun has always been three-fold: attempt to find some reasonable explanation for them (with Rise and Fall, the rule of thumb I use is that it is a subjective viewpoint, from Hamanu's perspective, and despite his hubris in believing that his memories are flawless, his aptness at deception has resulted in him even deceiving himself on things). If I can't find some reasonable explanation for the inaccuracies, I either discard them completely (picking which of the inconsistent accounts I like), or I alter them to make them fit into my view of Dark Sun for my campaigns.
For instance, I have Dark Sun for my campaigns work from the notion that Dregoth was the creator of the Dragon Metamorphosis spell series. He'd been working on it before he was a Champion, and he continued on it during the Cleansing Wars. I believe that Rajaat had taken Dregoth's work, and made some alterations to it, which resulted in Hamanu's creation as a new kind of Champion. I think Dregoth could have already implemented the Dragon Metamorphosis spells on himself before the Cleansing Wars, before he was a Champion or Rajaat. I think that Hamanu truly believed the other Champions were like him, going through an "automatically progressing" metamorphosis like himself. When he discovered Rajaat's true purpose, he told Borys, and Borys discovered about Hamanu's metamorphosis, possibly connecting the dots to Dregoth, went to him, and found out about his spell series. When the rebellious Champions succeeded in defeating Rajaat, Borys then used the Dark Lens to make the other Champions into Dragons (stage 1). With Dregoth's support, Borys had convinced the others to make him into a fully-transformed Dragon, with extremely bad side-effects (his rampage for a century) -- in their panic they bungled things a bit. His rampage causes all of the new Sorcerer-Kings to be very leery about progressing further down the spell chain until they could figure out what happened (well, except for those who tried to accelerate the transformation themselves).
Thus, I sort of incorporate a lot of Rise and Fall's ideas, in one way or another, while trying to keep to the ideas given in the game materials as well. I think Hamanu *is* automatically going through the various metamorphosis stages, which gets quickened the more he uses magic, so he tends to try to avoid using it, because he is honestly terrified of what Rajaat did to him. I think that Borys knew Hamanu was different, but I don't know if even Dregoth knew the extent of how different Hamanu is (Champions aren't prone to revealing secrets to each other). I think Sielba discovered how different Hamanu was, and threatened to reveal Hamanu for what he was to the others, and thus forcing him to kill her, and wipe out all traces of life in Yaramuke, mostly out of self defense.
I think there may have been divine spellcasters who worked with the Champions during the Cleansing Wars (I like to think there was a lot of support for the Wars by the Paraelementals, which won a lot of territory because of them). I don't think that there was really anything like the modern Templars, which got their divine power from the Sorcerer-Kings until after the rebellion and the transformations into Dragons. I also don't think that any of the Sorcerer-Kings have a clue (they probably have some speculations) as to what is causing them to be able to grant divine spells to the Templars (well, maybe Dregoth does, what with his godhood spell and such).
Since, of course, in the context of the novel itself, Hamanu's POV is not subjective as you described it.
Thank you for specifically saying "with Rise and Fall, the rule of thumb I use is that it is a subjective viewpoint, from Hamanu's perspective, and despite his hubris in believing that his memories are flawless, his aptness at deception has resulted in him even deceiving himself on things"
Since, of course, in the context of the novel itself, Hamanu's POV is not subjective as you described it.
Hamanu claims it is not subjective. He claims that his memory is flawless. He also claims that he's seen basically the same trends, the same kinds of people, the same, well.... anything so many times that the sheer repetition has overwhelmed him, and he has a hard time remembering exact dates, only that he knows something *did* happen. He also is talking from the position of a single individual, with a singular perspective and point of view. He does, through the book, use phrases to suggest he sees things from his perspective as correct, and his hubris is that he tends to see a lot of it as the only true perspective.
Yet, he admits to not knowing too much about his peers, that they are all rather reclusive and keep to themselves -- they also (rightly so) don't trust each other. Even if he has a flawless photographic memory, he still will interpret the events according to his point of view. And that point of view is subjective. He sees those events one way, I'd bet Borys saw them a different way, as did Sacha, or even Rajaat. They may all have flawless records of the events in their memories, but that doesn't mean they focus on the same things, that they all have the same point of view about it.
I think Lynn Abbey actually does a very good job cluing the readers into this point (I just recently re-read her novels, since I got the two I didn't have before). Hamanu still is very much the mind of a human being. Even in all his grandeur and power, he still is little Manu fighting for what he feels is right, regardless of consequences. He is rather stubborn and bull-headed, which nearly got him killed in the past, and may still get him killed in the end. He deduces what he believes to be correct from the given situation, but often, he doesn't have necessarily all the facts. He does tend to be very self-assured, however.
Does it really matter if the Champions became Dragons before the rebellion against Rajaat. Most peopel here concede that Dregoth at least was one and he could have used the Cleansing Wars to hide the rage period which wouldn't have been as noticable while the general slaughter would have been going on.
Theres 2 contradicting PoV both supported by 2nd ed products. RaFoaDK is cano if you like it or not- most people here seem to like the novel despite some well established mistakes in it due to communication netween TSR and Abbey.
Would any one here concede (even if you have a different opinion than mine) that it makes more sense that Rajaat drained the suns energy to turn his champions into 1st stage Dragons.
Situation 1. Drains suns energy to empower his champions with immortality, and being able to use obsidian orbs.
Situation 2. As above but basically unknown to them the Champions ae stage 1 Dragons.
Situation 2 makes the Champions both immortal and gives them the ability to use orbs.
Assuming I'm wrong (which is fine by me) I would retcon the following. During the Cleansing Wars the Champions posed as Dragons of legend (not that hard to do being epic spellcasters/psions) so Hamanu percieved them as such. Dregoth figured it out on his own and became a Dragon during the Cleansing Wars. When Myron was deposed Hamnau bcame the 2nd Dragon (Rajaat copied Dregoth). Unlike normal Dragon metamorphosis Hamanus one is automatic and Hamanu was also designed to kill the other Champions. The Champions rebelled and Dregoth and Hamanu didn't need to be transformed. The events in Urik play out as Abbey portrayed in her novels (not just RaFoaDK). I thnk thatsthe easiest "retcon".
In FY 15 The Champions have decided to create a new Dragon and thats Hamanus job. The events in RaFoaDK happen, Hamanu becomes the Dragon of Urik and goes to Ur Draxa and spends "1000" years in the lava. Novel ends.
That was in Free Year 15 which is 2 years after Dregoth Ascending IIRC. Now I see several options.
1. Ignore the events in Rise and Fall- hamanu remains SK of Urik
2. Hamanus is gone for 1000 years, Pavek rules Urik and his Templars can still cast spells. Peraps Uriks Spirit of the Land can pose as Hamanu (in game effect Hamanu is effectivly still around)
3. Set a campaign in FY1015 - Hamanu returns a a full fledged Dragon.
4. Hamanus 1000 years being "reborn" or whatever is all in his head and returns a few months after or perhaps early FY 16. Hamanu is a full Dragon and instead of the Dragon of Tyr you now have a Dragon of Urik.
I kinda like option 4 and have no issue of a new Dragon replacing Borys 5-6 years after the events of the Cerulean Storm novel. Unlike Borys Hamanu wouldn't have to collect a levy and Hamanu does have a code of honor and some morality as well so would actually make a better Dragon IMHO than Borys anyway.
Paizos version of Darksun still had Hamanu around, Dregoth ruling Raam and Atzetuk becomes a full Dragon and Sorcerer King and Andropinis gets out of the black early.
Any FY 15-20 timeline could deal with some of these events alongside a Kreen invasion seems to be a logical/reasonable progression of the timeline.
Simple yay or nay. Do you think Abbeys novels were better than the Prism Pentad?
Yep, but I think Abbey is a far better author than Denning. I think Denning has gotten better over the years, but Abbey is quite a bit better overall, she does a good job of breaking out of the classic fantasy stereotypes when necessary, Denning didn't.
Like I said, the inconsistencies she had in her books are directly related to the lack of information TSR was giving her. She had to research for herself only on the things that were already published. She couldn't know what else was planned, and there seemed to be no real confirmed direction for Dark Sun from TSR's stand point. I don't think that the flaws in her novels are because of her, or what she did. It was because TSR say dying, more like killing itself with a complete and total breakdown in communication.
Hawke's books however are far more rife with inconsistencies than Abbey's. His over-generalized "Druids = Preservers & Wizards = Defilers" concept is a bit irksome, among a great many other things. Personally, I don't think people on Athas would bat an eye in the direction of an "Elfling" -- there's enough weirdness in the world to make him be mostly overlooked in the mixed crowd, not a sudden "*gasp*, it's a half elf/half halfling" shock.
All in all, I definitely consider the novels to come second to the gaming materials for my perspective on Athas. I definitely don't consider the Prism Pentad as a definitive source. In fact, I don't consider anything for Dark Sun as a definitive source. The world is comprised of very subjective and questionable viewpoints. The lack of literacy among the people, the lack of reading materials period, makes for even a semi-accurate account of history doubtful. Heck, the most accurate historical account I can think of for Athas, the Kreen genetic memory, has been even shown to be a little flawed (or fuzzy) on points over time.
I've liberally changed things up before in the setting, if only to keep my players off-balance, which keeps the game exciting and intriguing. In the end, it's the enjoyment of the game which is what matters, I believe.