kelsen wrote:
First, I just wanted to know if it was possible to have an updated 3.5 before 4th ed arrive. If it is not possible, just tell us like you just did, but without drama!
Nobody ever told us 3.5 r7 would NEVER happen. It was always on hold as stated on the web site. On hold tells me it might happen. I couldnt know there was change that are more than trivial to adjust a lots of the actual rules.
If you tell me the rules we have will be the final 3.5, I will stop waiting for an update!
From what Kelsen said, I dont know for all of you, and maybe there are something else I do not know, but for me, "Neverending conversion" isnt something I consider bad. It tells me that you do everything you can do stay in touch with what's new at WotC.
Wwwwwooooooaaaaahhhhh!!!!
If your purpose here is to make DS fans withdraw from this board... congratulations you are in the righ way. But if it´s not... you have to change your mind.
I was not criticising you or athas.org, just asked politely about the old planed review for the DS3.5 document.
I asked that because, as you have already admited here, before 4e anounciment there were plans to review DS3.5. You could have limited your answer to an elegant phrase, simple as that:
"I was going to be starting the revision, starting in September or so. 4e announcements basically derailed that."
That would be enough for me and for Grumore, who were just asking and not trying ot "hijack" your thread or anything, wich is, by the way, a VERY ofensive word.
Nobody here is stupid enough to ask for a monthly update from athas.org at its baseline rules. We were just asking about an uptade for a documment dated of 2004. We understand that the baseline must be made stable enough because there are many other projects queued and everybody here wants to see then finished. What we can´t understand is why we deserve to receive such a rude answer from you, if we just asked about an update for a documment with amost 4 YEARS OLD!!! Were we asking too much????
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About the defiling system, I would like to point out that I´m not a newbie here (as you considered)... I´m on DS boards since year 2000 and registered in 2001 (look at my profile)... I have watched the previous discussions about the development of your current defiling system since the beggining, and I feel confortable enough to criticise it.
YOURS 3.5 defiling system has some good points (thanks to ORACLE´s always nice job), but (sadly) it failed to achied general aceptance. It also became old, VERY OLD, because since 2004 you don´t review it. That´s the only truth. You don´t have to make a survey to discover that only a few people actually use (or have used) athas.org´s defiling system.
I´m not the first to criticise it, and surely I won´t be the last. You also say that you don´t receive too much feedback from the fans, or that they come very slowly. Try to be more democrathic, (or at least "sympathetic") and more feedback will come. Try to hear the DS fans, hear your public.
The simple release of new materials is not enough. If you don´t make DS fans happy, you don´t keep DS alive.
Nobody here is saying that it´s an easy job to do or disreggarding that you have to work under strict frames (wich is very different from houseruling), but you must consider the community claims.
If the majority of the community is saying that your system is wrong, even if you don´t take their suggestions into account (if suggestions are not good enough, but not just because suggestions came from public outside the bureaus), you MUST consider to review the rule.
Remember Flip, before you joined athas.org, you were just a DS fan like all of us, so your role here (as for all members of athas.org too) is to guide and represent our community, to judge our claims wisely, and seek for the best of our DS role-playing system. I see you and others athas.org members as our representatives, judges, keepers and guardians, but not as dictators. If you choose the path of dictatorship, people here will just turn back and leave your rules system behind.
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Lastly, different from what you Flip argued, my previous ask for a review in the 3.5DS document do not contradict with my personal opinion against engaging in a "never-ending" conversion. To make a review is very diferent from engaging in a "never-ending" coversion.
You can do a good review at the 3.5DS documment, stop HERE, feel satisfacted, and consider this the FINAL DS conversion. Or you can engage in a never-ending conversion, I mean, go following WoTC steps converting DS to 4e, 5e, 6e... 10e... until your death, then ask your sons and the sons of your sons to continue the job for you.
I consider this second option unreasonable, at least for me.
I´m very experienced with rules systems that change every time. As tax lawer in Brazil, I can say: tax rules in Brazil (as in USA) change almost every time (both statute law and precedent law). It is very bad for most taxpayers that tax rules change every time, because it makes impossible for then to understand the tax legislation, so they have to spend lots of money hiring expensive professionals (such as tax lawers like me, but also tax accountants, auditors, etc.) just to collect their taxes according to the law and avoid the "Brazilian IRS" pressure.
But, believe me, it´s even worst when RPG rules change every time. Not only for the money you have to spend buying all the books again, but specially because people have their own lives to live, jobs and carrerers, even familes, and that people cannot wait for you to complete the final DS conversion for the last edition released by WoTC. Life cannot wait for you.
RPG is a hobby not a way of life.
As Phoenix Merrick properly said:
The one thing WotC seems to have forgotten is:
"In RPG's, stability and consistency SELLS"
I´m with him. But if people here (specially athas.org) have the courage, the enthusiasm, and specially the TIME, to follow the second option (to engage in a "never-ending" conversion routine), I can only wish you well.
GOOD LUCK!
What a sullen answer Flip. DS fans like me don´t deserve to have answers like that from athas.org´s crew. (...) That would be enough for me and for Grumore, who were just asking and not trying ot "hijack" your thread or anything, wich is, by the way, a VERY ofensive word.
I fail to see any hostility in Flip´s post. Moving this topic to a separate thread to prevent derailing the other thread (perhaps a less offensive word than hi-jacking for gentle beings) is a good move, as it provides the opportunity to address it in detail. Flip has also taken the courtesy to extensively answer your questions.
As for keeping "everyone" happy, we all know that it is impossible to accommodate every fan (or subgroup) on every rule, but it is my firm belief that the majority of the fans are satisfied with the majority of our material - regardless of understanding our restrictions or not. We also listen a great deal to the entire fan community, but even a small change can have great ramifications in terms of both balance and updating co-dependent products.
After six rounds of revisions, unless something is viewed as a significant improvement - especially to something inherently flawed, we don´t implement every suggested change. Either we spend all our time nitpicking on rules - or we design products such as Faces of the Forgotten North, Lifeshaped Handbook, Athasian Emporium, City-State of Balic etc.
I know which I prefer.
That being said, I've grown rather fond of the new Star Wars Saga Edition rules, and have been brainstorming ideas on how to work out a Dark Sun Saga Edition ruleset. I don't want to derail this thread, so if anyone else is interested, PM me.
As for keeping "everyone" happy, we all know that it is impossible to accommodate every fan (or subgroup) on every rule, but it is my firm belief that the majority of the fans are satisfied with the majority of our material - regardless of understanding our restrictions or not. We also listen a great deal to the entire fan community, but even a small change can have great ramifications in terms of both balance and updating co-dependent products.
After six rounds of revisions, unless something is viewed as a significant improvement - especially to something inherently flawed, we don´t implement every suggested change. Either we spend all our time nitpicking on rules - or we design products such as Faces of the Forgotten North, Lifeshaped Handbook, Athasian Emporium, City-State of Balic etc.
I know which I prefer.
Thanks, Jon. Just keep the good work.
P.S.: I would like to say also that yours Tyrian Conspiracy is one of my favorite DS adventures. I remember I have used it just after the end of the FREEDOM adventure, and it worked nicely with my players.
P.S.: I would like to say also that yours Tyrian Conspiracy is one of my favorite DS adventures. I remember I have used it just after the end of the FREEDOM adventure, and it worked nicely with my players.
Thanks, Kelsen. My personal favorites are Merchant House of Amketch and Dragon's Crown. It's difficult to rate one's own adventure modules.
Though, again, nobody answered the question :
Just tell us if we have to wait for a unfinished release (that we would be really happy to have!)
or
tell us to NOT wait for a new and last release.
OF both product from 2003 which are Core rules and ToA.
Thanks!
Just tell us if we have to wait for a unfinished release (that we would be really happy to have!)
Our project priority list for 2008 is currently being discussed. I ask for your patience.
I got some comments on a possible revision for the DSC 3.5, there would only need to be more feats (racial and regional, and some raze perhaps) on the other side I really love what you guys have done to the templar (and its prestige classes) the only idea is from a threa of another Templar REVISION (the abilitie Templarate Lore sounds good to me, keep it in mind, BUT DONT CHANGE ANYTHING ELSE FROM THE TEMPLAR LOL PLS) on the other hand...
Im converting all the NPC´s from several 2nd sourcebooks, Im doing Slave tribes, Asticlian Gambit Adventure, Dark Crown and some NPC´s from the Oases text in the Veiled Alliance Sourcebook.
Well Jon, Penn, and Yanick (Meth) keep up with the good work, still looking forward to hear from URIK and the Mighty King
1. Gladiator
2. Templar
3. Defiling rules
Minor tweaks to some races like elves. Have anybody who wants to submit an idea do so and have people vote on it. Winner becomes the new Atha.org version of one of those classes or mechanics.
yes, no more revisions, just new releases!:D DeadLands, DeadLands, DeadLands!
I second that motion!
