Oh, and by the way, when a Preserver casts a spell in a Jungle, are his spells stronger (and thus drawing more power from the abundant life around him) or as he taps only the needed amount of energy his save DCs stay the same?
I never quite understood how preservers could cast spell and not kill plantlife...
3.5 ed is even worse in regards to power level with the big 3 (Cleric, Druid, Wizard).
If they got nerfed its because they needed it. Personally I have kinda nerfed the big 3 by powering up every other class in the game-Fighters 4 skill points/level and revised skill list, monks with fighter BAB etc.
I never quite understood how preservers could cast spell and not kill plantlife...
They're simply more careful about it, and use only the energy they need, instead of ripping everything out at once.
Here's a thought:
Preserving - Casting a spell is a full round action (as per spontaneous caster/meta-magic rules). You must take time to gather your spell’s power.
Defiling – May cast a spell as a standard action, plus with additional life destruction effectively heighten the spells abilities (as per the Heighten Spell Feat) or possibly just keeping with what was said by athas.org on ‘taking a full round’.
This just seems to be the simplest way to represent what I remember reading 15 years ago. Also this plays into the 2-ed. wording of defilers are faster the preservers.
The various rules for taint’s and what-not could still apply with this idea.
Edit:
Ok I hit send too soon, there were a few other tidbits I wanted to talk about. The "Path Dexter" and "Path Sinister" Feats; The prerequisites are "Preserver/Defiler" but there are no rules defining which one a wizard is other than Player/DM opinion. Do you need to be a pure defiler, i.e. never cast as a preserver to get Path Sinister? Must you have never defiled to pick-up Path Dexter? In my opinion there needs to be something a kin to the Core Rules specialist wizard choice at first level for wizards in Dark Sun. But unlike specialist wizards the choice should be able to be changed during play.
I'm kind of surprised no one has thought of the concept of Preservers require a full round to cast spells.
Here's a thought:
Preserving - Casting a spell is a full round action (as per spontaneous caster/meta-magic rules). You must take time to gather your spell’s power.
Defiling – May cast a spell as a standard action, plus with additional life destruction effectively heighten the spells abilities (as per the Heighten Spell Feat) or possibly just keeping with what was said by athas.org on ‘taking a full round’.
Phoenix_M,
This was one of the first ideas considered by athas.org in a distant past... in the beggining of the discussions about the conversion of the defiling system to 3e. This mechanic was later discarded because it penalizes the preserver. There is a general consensus that preserver spellcasting should work same as standart wizard from PHB, while defiler spellcasting should provide the advantages (and hidrances as well).
But keep posting your suggestions... the defiling system is undoubtly one of the most challenging parts of the conversion of DS from 2e to 3e.
EDIT: Hans Kelsen,
You are using the same nickname of mine. Hans Kelsen was one of the greatest german law philosophers, so I guess you are a lawer too?
Phoenix_M,
This was one of the first ideas considered by athas.org in a distant past... in the beggining of the discussions about the conversion of the defiling system to 3e. This mechanic was later discarded because it penalizes the preserver. There is a general consensus that preserver spellcasting should work same as standart wizard from PHB, while defiler spellcasting should provide the advantages (and hidrances as well).
But keep posting your suggestions... the defiling system is undoubtly one of the most challenging parts of the conversion of DS from 2e to 3e.
Simple, require a low ExP cost for defiling - the loss of life force. Nothing as serious as magic item construction, say 5-10 ExP per spell level... Just a continuation of thoughts. Making full round casting the norm for wizard types, given how magic is suppose to work in Dark Sun I’d penalize the whole of the arcane types.
EDIT: Hans Kelsen,
You are using the same nickname of mine. Hans Kelsen was one of the greatest german law philosophers, so I guess you are a lawer too?
Nickname!
Phoenix is my name... well middle name anyway, there are just too many Chris’ locally
Oh and not a lawyer, medically discharged firefighter-paramedic turned cook (back injury, nothing big).You have misunderstood me. In my "EDIT" paragraph (above), I was refering to Hans Kelsen (the guy that started this thread) and not to you. ;)
I also like Norberto Bobbio, Chiovenda and Alf Ross, but it would be hijacking the thread way too much!:-)
PM me if you would like to continue this conversation
There was a version in place where preserving was a longer action like you suggest, but loosing your move action is actually a huge nerf, because you're basically garunteeing you're going to get hit, or that you may only cast every other round.
Simple, require a low ExP cost for defiling - the loss of life force. Nothing as serious as magic item construction, say 5-10 ExP per spell level... Just a continuation of thoughts. Making full round casting the norm for wizard types, given how magic is suppose to work in Dark Sun I’d penalize the whole of the arcane types.
No good -- now we're penalizing defilers ... that really doesn't fly round these parts. ;)
my main problem with defiling (in the latest incarnation i have seen) is that it takes 2-3 feats before it starts getting to be any good. that's a pretty big investment, and you're already taking a huge penalty to your "please don't lynch me for being a mage" check (aka bluff check to pretend you didn't cast a spell).
just a thought.
somatic concealment feat. nuff said.:D
Difficult to conceal a huge circle of ash...
Difficult to conceal a huge circle of ash...
I Always wanted a feat that allowed you to suck a little more to add an illusion to your spell to hide the ash. Maybe it would work as a reserve style feat...
it does require a remove curse (more likely) or a druid (less likely, unless they make you dead first) to remove it though.
I Always wanted a feat that allowed you to suck a little more to add an illusion to your spell to hide the ash. Maybe it would work as a reserve style feat...
Might be easier to make it a magic item. Defiling stays hidden for 10 minutes or so.
... that really doesn't fly round these parts. ;)
Most PC’s don’t fly on Athas unless thrown, I'll keep shooting anyway PULT ;)
The only other thing I can think of involves an additional mechanic:
Preserving requires a move action in order to safely draw power from the land (as I started with before). This collection of power does not need to take place immediately before casting. A wizard intent on preserving may, per move action used, gather enough energy for 1 spell level worth of spells. Any wizard may still use the “gather as needed” approach to spell casting resulting in the standard “Defiler Circle of Ash” or a full round casting time. A character may retain a pool of arcane power, though this technique is normally only taught to preservers (possible feat or first level 'specialization' concept), allowing a wizard time to have magic on hand if needed. Mechanics might go something along the lines of: may retain spell levels per “X” hours per INT modifier, I’m thinking 2-3 hours minimum up to about 5-6 hours at most. So if your wizard has say a 16 Intelligence he could hold arcane power from 6 hours (min) to 18 hours (max). The higher the intelligence, the longer your mind hold on to the power. Some thing that could easily be accomplished along with the re-memorizing of spells out of combat and possibly off session. Defiling I’m tempted to keep as I stated above Standard action to cast, circle of ash, optional “Heighten Spell”
This is just off the top of my head, details could be hammered out more fully if the concept seems worth while.
Should I expand on this concept or let it go?
Besisdes your noble efforts, mechanics that try to build a distinction between preservers and defilers based on spell casting time (move action) seens to be not very appealing to the people (me included).
In my opinion, before engaging in any attempt to build a new defiling system that gets community support people must reach a philosophical consensus about a fundamental point: "Should preservers and defilers, IN DARK SUN, be fully balanced?"
If we look to the version presented by David Noonam at Dragon Magazine, you will see that David himself recognized that is impossible to make preservers and defilers balanced and simultaneously keep the old DS flavour from ds 2e. So what we do?
In my opinion, try to keep the balance, but not to much... in DS role-playing penalties for playing a wizards should be considered too in the balance equation.
If you agree with that, you will agree that preservers should function as the wizard from PHB, and defilers should get the advantages for defiling, and some minor hidrances.
Along these lines, in previous threads I have proposed two different systems: one is basic and easy to play and other is an advanced and more balanced version of David Nonaam´s sytem. See what you think:
1st option: The Basic System
DEFILERS AND PRESERVERS:
Both defilers and preservers are members of the wizard class.
DEFILERS:
Defilers are wizards that always defile the land when they cast spells. Defilers cannot cast spells without defiling the land around then.
In the other hand, when casting spells, defilers receive spellcasting bonuses wich they apply
to the spell being cast, but also take penalties related to their taint, according to table bellow:
Short is good. Maybe athas.org's system's too short, but there's a middleground and this to me is not it.
All I've noticed of Kelsen's system is that it made me glaze over. Haven't read a single word. Too long.
Short is good. Maybe athas.org's system's too short, but there's a middleground and this to me is not it.
i guess someone should tell you that the second one at least is in fact much longer than that, since it references both a dragon article and another rulebook =P
i still think my method is the simplest (that is, allow a defiler-only feat that works like vow of poverty, except you can only choose special defiler feats with it... thus allowing defilers to not have to spend a bunch of feats they could otherwise use on something else before they get to be useful).
All I've noticed of Kelsen's system is that it made me glaze over. Haven't read a single word. Too long.
Short is good. Maybe athas.org's system's too short, but there's a middleground and this to me is not it.
I though the Champaion called Pennarin was the Centaur Crusher, not Pennarin, the LAZY.
If it was Pennarin the Lazy, centaurs would still habiting Athas surface (or perphaps, they still... everything depends on the source you consult...)
Speaking seriously now:
I agree that the second option is too long, but it´s because it describes the rules mechanic of the advanced sytem, and it is a complete work not a scratch.
You could have tryed, at least, to read the first option, wich is a very basic system I currently use in my campaing.
So, paraphrasing Jonhy Walker, all I can say to you Pennarin is: Keep reading ! ! !
I expect a system such as this one to be simple and refer to no more than one table, and preferably with no table involved.
Still, there are plenty of long systems with lots of kick in it, like UA's madness rules (might be called something else though), but I don't think a thing as fundamental as defiling should be represented by several paragraphs of rules.
i still think my method is the simplest (that is, allow a defiler-only feat that works like vow of poverty, except you can only choose special defiler feats with it... thus allowing defilers to not have to spend a bunch of feats they could otherwise use on something else before they get to be useful).
Interesting thought. What do you see as appropriate "losses" then? Taking Vow of Powerty essentially means you´re giving up magical and psionic equipment, even masterwork stuff. What would the Defiler abstain from - or otherwise be penalized with?
Maybe I read all of it, but said I didn't to make my point.
I expect a system such as this one to be simple and refer to no more than one table, and preferably with no table involved.
Still, there are plenty of long systems with lots of kick in it, like UA's madness rules (might be called something else though), but I don't think a thing as fundamental as defiling should be represented by several paragraphs of rules.
You might like a varient I'm working on. Essentially you get defiler points each time you defile. Each time you defile you cast spells at +1 caster level. Once you pass half you wisdom score in defiling points you have to start making will saves (DC10+ number of defiling points). Once you flunk a save you're now a defiler. You cast spells from Abjuration and Divination at -1 caster level and spells from Conjuration adn Necromancy at +1 caster level.
Maybe I read all of it, but said I didn't to make my point.
I expect a system such as this one to be simple and refer to no more than one table, and preferably with no table involved.
(...) I don't think a thing as fundamental as defiling should be represented by several paragraphs of rules.
If you admit some minor degree of unbalance in your defiling system (like David Noonam did in his version), you can work with an even more simple mechanic.
Grant a bonus of +1 to spell save DCs and +2 to caster level (for purposes of level-dependent spell variables and for caster level checks only) whenever a wizards chooses to cast a spell defiling.
However, by doing so the wizard would assume the risk of becomming a defiler and permanently losing the ability to preserve.
If you admit some minor degree of unbalance in your defiling system (like David Noonam did in his version), you can work with an even more simple mechanic.
Grant a bonus of +1 to spell save DCs and +2 to caster level (for purposes of level-dependent spell variables and for caster level checks only) whenever a wizards chooses to cast a spell defiling.
However, by doing so the wizard would assume the risk of becomming a defiler and permanently losing the ability to preserve.
Thats essentially giving Defilers 2-3 feats though for free. Not exactly balenced. Most feats I've seen that increase caster levels are normally very restricted on types of spells they effect like Bloodline of Fire (+2 caster level on fire spells) or Shadow Weave Magic which gives +1 on Illusion, Enchantment and Necromancy but -1 on Invocation and Alteration spells cast.
Zardnaar there is 'Spell Casting Prodigy': Effectively gain a +2 to caster's predominate stat for purposes of spell casting. From Forgotten Realms IIRC.
That feats fine but its not +2 caster levels. IMC theres a Sorceror with Arcane Thesis and Bloodline of fire who casts fire spells at +2 caster level, and Scorching Ray at +2 caster level (+4 total).
I don't think any feat grants +2 (or even+1) caster level for all spells. It would be at least 2 feats and +1 on all spell save DCs is effectivly Spell FocusX8.
Thats essentially giving Defilers 2-3 feats though for free. Not exactly balenced. Most feats I've seen that increase caster levels are normally very restricted on types of spells they effect like Bloodline of Fire (+2 caster level on fire spells) or Shadow Weave Magic which gives +1 on Illusion, Enchantment and Necromancy but -1 on Invocation and Alteration spells cast.
You need to read my last post again Zardnaar...
I wrote in the beginning: "If you admit some minor degree of unbalance in your defiling system...".
So, this last suggestion assumes that the DM will admit some minor degree of unbalance in his campaing and will try to off-set some of the defiling advantages with role-playing penalties.
I know (and everybody knows), that it´s against the rules to offset mechanical advantages with role-playing penalties (3E basic principle).
However, even David Noonam, in his article converting defiling system to 3E, admited that in some situations it was impossible. That is, in his article, he admited that HIS defiling system would not work very well in other worlds different than Dark Sun, because he was counting with DS role-playing penalties to offset defiling advantages.
David Noonam´s defiling system may not be the best, but what matters here is that David Noonam himself admited that BALANCE is not an absolute DOGMA, and that, in some situations, he considered licit to use role-playing penalties to offset in game advantages.
Maybe we should learn with him this important lesson, and free ourselves from the shackles of BALANCE FUNDAMENTALISM.
MAYBE, what is actually hampering our progress in that matter (the great dilema of converting defiling system) is our current strict idea of balance.
As David Noonam showed us, BALANCE is important, but is not an ABSOLUTE DOGMA, even in 3E. In some situations, if you have to sacrifice the essence of the concept to convert it to 3E, you can instead tolerate some MINOR degree of unbalance and try to offset it with roleplaying penalties, in order to keep the flavour.
I´m not saying that balance must be leaved behind (indeed, in the systems I have posted above you will see that I *always* try to combine defling advantages with some hidrances).
Maybe, it is time to review our concept of balance reggarding the defiling system.
By the way, it is a philosophycal discussion that precedes rules mechanic discussion:
In wich situations (for instance, converting the defiling system), it is licit to admit some MINOR degree of unbalance and try to off-set it with roleplaying penalties, in order to keep the flavour?
Defiling could result in improved use of foci (orb, staff, wand, with more to come in later books possibly) for spellcasting. It would be quite general a rule.
Interesting thought. What do you see as appropriate "losses" then? Taking Vow of Powerty essentially means you´re giving up magical and psionic equipment, even masterwork stuff. What would the Defiler abstain from - or otherwise be penalized with?
how about the fact that you detect as a defiler to any number of special abilities? the taint may be a roleplaying drawback, but within the context of the campaign setting, that is all the drawback you need...
but nevermind the special abilities that will detect you, there's the simple fact that plain common sense will figure out really bloody quick that you're a defiler. someone with a house 20 feet on a side will be able to cast a level 2 spell... or, if they want to actually benefit from being a defiler, a level 1 spell. yippee.
also, i don't see it in my quick check of the latest rules i have downloaded, but i thought the radius expands with every new spell... so a defiler is looking at being able to live someplace for what, a day? if that? before the large circle of ash expanding outwards from the building they live in gives them away. or, alternately, they can just not use any of their useful class features instead...
honestly, when you're writing within a campaign setting, you can balance things *for that campaign setting*
no one complains that lawful evil is too powerful in athas, and lawful good is too weak. and yet, they're not balanced. why? because that's how the setting works. people own slaves, and don't care if those slaves are treated like garbage or even die. it's just that kind of place. being able to use that kind of thing gives large advantages to those who can, but that doesn't mean that we need to start handing out stat bonuses to good aligned characters to make things "balanced".
You need to read my last post again Zardnaar...
I wrote in the beginning: "If you admit some minor degree of unbalance in your defiling system...".
So, this last suggestion assumes that the DM will admit some minor degree of unbalance in his campaing and will try to off-set some of the defiling advantages with role-playing penalties.
I know (and everybody knows), that it´s against the rules to offset mechanical advantages with role-playing penalties (3E basic principle).
However, even David Noonam, in his article converting defiling system to 3E, admited that in some situations it was impossible. That is, in his article, he admited that HIS defiling system would not work very well in other worlds different than Dark Sun, because he was counting with DS role-playing penalties to offset defiling advantages.
David Noonam´s defiling system may not be the best, but what matters here is that David Noonam himself admited that BALANCE is not an absolute DOGMA, and that, in some situations, he considered licit to use role-playing penalties to offset in game advantages.
Maybe we should learn with him this important lesson, and free ourselves from the shackles of BALANCE FUNDAMENTALISM.
MAYBE, what is actually hampering our progress in that matter (the great dilema of converting defiling system) is our current strict idea of balance.
As David Noonam showed us, BALANCE is important, but is not an ABSOLUTE DOGMA, even in 3E. In some situations, if you have to sacrifice the essence of the concept to convert it to 3E, you can instead tolerate some MINOR degree of unbalance and try to offset it with roleplaying penalties, in order to keep the flavour.
I´m not saying that balance must be leaved behind (indeed, in the systems I have posted above you will see that I *always* try to combine defling advantages with some hidrances).
Maybe, it is time to review our concept of balance reggarding the defiling system.
By the way, it is a philosophycal discussion that precedes rules mechanic discussion:
In wich situations (for instance, converting the defiling system), it is licit to admit some MINOR degree of unbalance and try to off-set it with roleplaying penalties, in order to keep the flavour?
The problem for me is you are using a role playing disadvantage for a mechanical advantage for one of the most powerful classes in the game already. Lets make spellcasters even better
.In the midst of the desert theres not much disadvantage to being a defiler unless the DM scatters powerful Druids around.A minor advantage is something like 1 on a skill check or something similar. +2 caster levels is alot and in effect spell focusX8.
New avenues will be oponend to DS with the advent of 4E, which may help solve the issue for defiling.
Defiling could result in improved use of foci (orb, staff, wand, with more to come in later books possibly) for spellcasting. It would be quite general a rule.
Wow, that's great Penn... What about those of us still using 3.5? Huh? 4th Ed DS is what - a year away still?
4th Ed DS is what - a year away still?
You wish!
Wow, that's great Penn... What about those of us still using 3.5? Huh? 4th Ed DS is what - a year away still?
Ok, here's a question for you then, would you rather:
- Have Athas.org continue to release the products they are close to releasing, and develop the setting further.
- Have Athas.org drop the projects they are doing, and delve into recreating the Defilers and Preservers rules (again), a process that held up the release of the core rules for months and months on end without any real "perfect" solution, just the one that was decided on because WotC demanded Preservers are the PHB wizard class, and that Defilers *must* be balanced with Preservers... Something that might not be able to come to a conclusion until long after 4E is released anyway. Meanwhile, the rest of the products Athas.org is near completion for releasing gets shelved.
That is basically the choice. There is a very limited set of people working on the products at Athas.org. There was a decision to basically get what we have in development rolled out, and then tend to focus on setting material that is not necessarily rules-focused for a bit, since 4E is basically "around the corner", then when 4E comes out, see about a new release of the DS Core for 4E... since 4E seems to really fit well with Dark Sun's ideas, and might be a lot more flexible for things like defining preservers and defilers.
Sorry, I'm cranky with WotC, at this time there is no way in Kano I can even afford to start thinking about buying yet another edition of the same game I've been playing since "Chainmail" (that would be back in 1978 for you young'ns).
#1, like that's a question. I'm just tired of all the "Oh when fourth edition... blah blah..."
Sorry, I'm cranky with WotC, at this time there is no way in Kano I can even afford to start thinking about buying yet another edition of the same game I've been playing since "Chainmail" (that would be back in 1978 for you young'ns).
Young? I was born in 78 thank you:P
#1, like that's a question. I'm just tired of all the "Oh when fourth edition... blah blah..."
Sorry, I'm cranky with WotC, at this time there is no way in Kano I can even afford to start thinking about buying yet another edition of the same game I've been playing since "Chainmail" (that would be back in 1978 for you young'ns).
tsk tsk, '75 here :P
;)So we both have dice older than Zardnaar
Probably.
So we both have dice older than Zardnaar
Yeah well I have, erm, um, ah.
My life sucks
:DDifficult to conceal a huge circle of ash...
a minor illusion spell could cover the sight of ash for x minutes/ x hours per level. this would work for smaller spells
higher level spells would create a larger ash ring. so you could have a spell that actually drew the life energy from farther away. the defiler would need to see the location of where he was drawing energy from first inorder to fully power his spell. if he was choosing a random spot he could only draw asmuch as was there so it might not even be enough and the spell will work at half effect/range/power or maybe not at all if the area has no energy to give.
this would allow defilers using somatic concealment feat and greater somatic concealment to hide their casting almost completely.
and defilers are not really that much more powerful than preservers. when a defiler burns through all obtainable energy sources in the area the defiler is pretty much screwed. Alot of DM's i'v played with have forgotten this and try to allow defilers to cast many high level spells in the same area with No outside energy source like items or anything. which we never learn about til after the combat is finished anyways. so they get away with it at first.
and as being a DM for years i know that in the desert there are underground pools to use, and maybe even plantlife in some deep cavern. but not that much and not often are you standing over such a place.
Defilers run outa "gas" very quick.
So how do you make a defiler build a powerbase without destroying everything in a year or so?He´s gotta eat sometime.
Simple, he keeps moving. A defiler that stays in one area tends to be a defiler that ends up dead anyway.
I know it's a bit of a stretch, but I like that it gets back to the 2nd ed idea of defiling being an RP benefit. There could even be a feat, or chain of feats, that allows defilers to hide the fact that they defile (from their aura, that is. They still leave the circle of ash). These feats would let them get back the benefits they lose by defiling. The feat(s) can be balanced by having a defiler who has all the benefits of a preserver having had to take the same number as feats as a preserver would have had to take to get roughly the same benefits a defiler gets from defiling - increased caster level, spell penetration, etc.
At higher levels, defilers and preservers can be at roughly the same power levels, but defilers would have been more powerful earlier on, which fits with what I think the original developers had in mind (if I remember the defiler xp progression chart correctly).
example. Defilers cast their spells at -3 caster level but roll 1d6 and add that to their modified caster level.
That's the exact formula used for Wild Magic, I don't think it's all that accurate to DS. I could see caster level based on the type of terrain +1 for forest, -3 for salt flats etc. but that should affect both preservers and defilers equaly.
I know but it was just an idea. One could also tweak the Shadow Adept rules from FR to make a Defiler as well. The Defilers could get bonus caster levels on 2-3 scholls and maybe inproved spell DCs at the cost of weaker spells in other schools. Probably conjuration, necromancy and invocation as enhaned schools and weaker spells in other school.
It seems to me that if a defiler has cast enough spells such that everything in a 200' radius is dead, how is the defiler still able to pull any energy to cast a spell?
Further, this would help explain why defilers want to be near plant life because it would allow him to cast more spells.
Using Kelsen's rules for defiling, with regards to the radius, and if there is a limit of a 200' radius, then there are some big limits to be put on defiler's. First, any spell cast within a defiled area, for simplicity's sake, adds to the previous radius, regardless of whether the defiler is at the center. (I think the rule is that half of the new spell's radius is added to the old.) Second, once a radius equal's 200', no energy can be pulled for any spell caster.
This gives us both mechanical and role playing rules. And, with 3E allowing evil druids, it makes sense to have a defiler/druid combo. He needs life energy to cast spells, so he knows how to grow things. Further, the defiler can't hide in the deep desert, unless he doesn't want to cast spells because at 30' per spell level, that's not many spells, without moving A LOT! So, the role playing disadvantage is that the defiler is usually around people (or plant life, which in Athas is probably the same thing, as people are near growing areas) which increases the chances of them being found.
Kelsen: Love the rules and the idea of taint from Heroes of Horror. Definitely going to be reading that closely for my own ideas. Thanks!
turlough
Wouldn't a Druid/Defiler lose his druidic powers though? If I was the Dm he would unless he had a prestige class like Blighter or something.
one of the things that has been kicked around as an idea (its Meth's I think) is the idea of corrupted SotL, which could have corrupted druids. One place that springs to mind that they would really fit in would be Rajaat's Swamp...
one of the things that has been kicked around as an idea (its Meth's I think) is the idea of corrupted SotL, which could have corrupted druids. One place that springs to mind that they would really fit in would be Rajaat's Swamp...
A Druid like that to me would be better of with the Talontar Blightlord PrC in Unapproachable East rather than a Defiler/Druid. That or maybe make an idea like that a feat similar to Heretic of the Faith which lets you violate a deities dogma and still retain your powers.
In any case, the other idea I presented, as I think of it more, is pretty restricting. It means that a defiler has to keep moving, or they won't be able to cast spells, especially in the desert. Ideas on that?
Does anyone use the optional rules about defilers creating ash when they memorize, instead of casting? How has that worked? Would it be better?
I am thinking about a DS campaign soon and am trying to figure out what I want to do.
Thanks!
turlough
Okay, so maybe a defiler/druid wouldn't work. My bad.
In any case, the other idea I presented, as I think of it more, is pretty restricting. It means that a defiler has to keep moving, or they won't be able to cast spells, especially in the desert. Ideas on that?
Does anyone use the optional rules about defilers creating ash when they memorize, instead of casting? How has that worked? Would it be better?
I am thinking about a DS campaign soon and am trying to figure out what I want to do.
Thanks!
turlough
Is there actually rules on how far a Defiler can defile or can he just stand in one place in an ever widening circle of ash?
Wow, that's great Penn... What about those of us still using 3.5? Huh? 4th Ed DS is what - a year away still?
I think that we (fans that do not plan to move to 4e...) cannot blame athas.org for choosing to keep developing other Dark Sun products and hold the review of the baseline rules until the release of 4e.
Since athas.org is doing voluntary work for us, we cannot demmand too much from then. Even if we criticise their work sometimes (mostly because we, fans, want to see our DARK SUN the most perfectly developed as possible, and athas.org products represent the "official version" of our most loved RPG world), all we have to do is thank then and receive with good will all the excellent material they have gently developed for us.
Futhermore, from the standpoint of the ones that have great hopes about 4e, and consider worth-while to convert all DS baseline rules again, it´s a very reasonable choice to hold the review until the release of 4e.
In the other hand, for the fans (like you and me) that intend to stay in 3.5E for a little more time, the fact that athas.org has left the revision of 3.5E behind, doesn´t mean that we cannot carry on this review by ourselves, exchanging ideas, opinions and critics HERE in this board.
This is what I intend to do reggarding the defiling system and few other points that "remain open" in the current 3.5E DS conversion.
The problem for me is you are using a role playing disadvantage for a mechanical advantage for one of the most powerful classes in the game already. Lets make spellcasters even better
A minor advantage is something like 1 on a skill check or something similar. +2 caster levels is alot and in effect spell focusX8.
Zardnaar,
It was just an idea I gave to Pennarim because he wanted to "get rid of tables".
The defiling bonuses of +2 to caster level and +1 to spell save DC may sound too much in your campaing, considering your style of play and the role-playing penalties that you, as a DM, would impose to a defiler player.
However, in another DM´s campaing (for e.g. even more harsh with wizards, specially defilers), maybe, these bonuses won´t even represent enough advantage to convince a player to play a defiler.
That´s the drawback of using role-playing penalties to offset mechanical advantages: since you cannot predict how each DM will handle his own DS campaing in terms of role-playing penalties, you cannot have a 100% warrant that it will properly offset the mechanical advantages.
In the other hand, I think that we cannot also understimate the role-playing penalties to a point that, we consider only licit to use it only to offset tiny or insignificant mechanical advantages.
For instance: for those who want to play with an oversimplifyed method of defiling rules, instead of giving +2 to caster level AND +1 to spell save DC, I suggest give to defilers the option to choose in the time of casting between a plain +2 bonus to caster level OR a +1 bonus to Spell Save DC.
Despite the problem of unpredictable administration of role-playing penalties by the DM, I think that the option to choose between a +2 bonus to caster level or a +1 bonus to Spell Save DC, is not enough advantage to ruin a DS campaing.
Kelsen: Love the rules and the idea of taint from Heroes of Horror. Definitely going to be reading that closely for my own ideas. Thanks!
Thanks for the praise. I hope it can serve you as a general guideline to build a defiling system suited for your style of play.
Is there actually rules on how far a Defiler can defile or can he just stand in one place in an ever widening circle of ash?
Not that I have found. I have re-read parts of it and it seems to keep expanding. That's why I wondered if there is a limit. It seems there would have to be but maybe that's just me.
Of course, if the defiler has to keep moving while casting, that could be interesting. That's why I wondered if anyone has used the "defiling when they prepare" method to see how that works. But again, if this is a mid level (12th) level defiler, how does he prepare all of his spells and leave this 500' radius ash and not be noticed?
I don't know myself. That's why I am hoping someone here will have some ideas.
turlough
for lower-level defilers, this would still remain true to some extent... but it would involve a lot more effort to move far enough away from base camp to do it.
actually, at least a higher-level defiler would be able to teleport somewhere, defile that area, teleport back, and have the rest of his spells available without any tangible drawback to the people in his home territory.
for lower-level defilers, this would still remain true to some extent... but it would involve a lot more effort to move far enough away from base camp to do it.
That would be if the Defiler is somehow able to absorb the energy and keep it. Typically, I tend to rule that the energy needs to be summoned and then expended in the spell that turn (not fond of the "defile while they prepare" rule variation from 2E, horribly broken it is), or it is lost (I've toyed with the idea that there is temporary damage to the spellcaster's Constitution score or somesuch from "overload", especially for defilers -- but never really pursued that idea much). As such, your little scenario would require the higher-level defiler to defile something to teleport, defile some more at wherever he/she teleported to in order to teleport back, and then defile a third time in order to cast the spell he/she really wanted to. Not exactly the best course of action in all consideration.
House rules that I use basically allow any Wizard or Sorcerer to defile in lieu of components for a spell.
It's not a huge advantage as far as leveling or super powerful spells go, but it fits with the theme, its flexible and over the career of a caster in a highly restrictive setting does make for 'quick & dirty' spells.
There's enough challenge for Preservers gathering regular spell components and dealing with other do-gooders to ensure those spell components are morally justifiable or challenging.
Finding a Druid for natural spell components as opposed to buying charms from Elves as one small example.
At higher levels I use an ad-hoc 'taint' system based on the work presented in the StarWars setting for Force users (we don't get to play alot anymore, so I leverage what we know without reinventing the wheel too often).
In the right situations, I allow defiling spells to be notably more powerful than their standard counterparts, but not during regular spell-casting - they require special preparation and more involved castings. Occasionally I'll grant them an option to exercise a spell not known to them (that best suits the situation) if they have enough points accumulated for defiling - it encourages a pattern of behavior with rewards without guaranteeing power - there needs to be an inherent element of risk with defiling, people know its wrong and a shortcut to their ends.
The greatest cost of defiling is their growing willingness to make excuses for their choices or to ignore their 'moral compass' and gradually lose their humanity in the quest for power - hence the 'taint' aspect which is a reflection on a physical / spiritual / mystical level of their corruption.
'Regular' defiling is quick & dirty - everything to power and shape the spell is consumed from the underlying magical 'weave' or nature or the world or Athas particular closeness to the Gray / Black / inner planes.
Whatever the case, I favor a twisting or demonism (in an Athasian way) of committed defilers.
From about level 10 onward, every 4-5 levels they are burdened with some disfigurement - often not readily discernible but triggered by social contact, casting or the presence of a kind of material or symbol (yes, like being burned by sunlight, hurt by silver and other weaknesses stolen from vampires & undead) their favored spells are likely subjects too.
My goal with it is emphasizing storytelling features as opposed to game mechanic features.
Whatever the case, I favor a twisting or demonism (in an Athasian way) of committed defilers.
From about level 10 onward, every 4-5 levels they are burdened with some disfigurement - often not readily discernible but triggered by social contact, casting or the presence of a kind of material or symbol (yes, like being burned by sunlight, hurt by silver and other weaknesses stolen from vampires & undead) their favored spells are likely subjects too.
My goal with it is emphasizing storytelling features as opposed to game mechanic features.
And I like the taint option for defilers. I think that's a good idea.
As for the actual defiling, I do like the idea of there being some game mechanic limitations, as well as role playing. My thought was that if a defiler casts too many spells in one area, he pulls too much energy and can't pull anymore. In my example, I used 200' as the radius which signifies that they can't pull any more energy from where they are. They have to move to undefiled ground to be able to cast any spells.
In any place where defiling is less than 10' per spell level, a defiler will get plenty of spells in one spot. Above that, and they will only get four spells higher than fourth level cast before they have to move. This also means that most will want to attack a defiler when he is in non fertile area, if possible.
One things this would do, I think, is force defilers to make or find items and use them. Perhaps defilers normally have a wand or two with them to use as a backup. Or a staff. It could be, then, that those items are associated with defiling and anyone with them is challenged.
I am just throwing out ideas to spark interest in this. I still haven't figured out everything I want a defiler to do or what it means. So, trying to spark some discussion.
turlough