In 3rd ed are they really anything else than a fighter with Profession:Gladiator skill and feats focusing on 1 vs 1 combat or something similar. Rather than tear yourselves up trying to balence the gladitor class how about either you.
a. Eliminate it.
b. make it a fighter varient.
c. Use the Gladiator PrC in Sword and Fist (3.0 book but it still works).
Gladiator fighter varient
. Lose medium and heavy armor proficiency
Gain d12 hit dice.
Or something similar. IMC (non DS) my fighters are basically PHB ones but with 4 skill points/level and I merged the swashbuckler (complete warrior) and fighter skill lists.
I also bumped up most other classes skill lists or tweaked them in some way except for the big 3 (Cleric, Druid, Wizard). Form the look of it in 4th ed it will be even easier to create talents and feats for it and make it a fighter varient.
So far its not exactly broken in playtesting and one of my PCs is a ranger 1/Fighter6 and is planning on going all the way as a fighter which is kinda rare in 3.5. Fighter 1-4 then multiclass then a PrC is quite common however. Fighter varient lvl 10 or lvl 10 Druid for example whats going to be more powerful- I'm not sure but here comes a dire animal wearing armor and casting flamestrike.. It does however let you create virtually any type of fighter you want though. Swashbuckler, gladiator, tank, dual wielder, knight.
Just drop it. It's a fighter. It's like having a seperate class for a cat burglar. It's a friggin rogue!
Same could be said for Templars (Cleric) and DS Bards (Rogue). Gladiators are just as much part of Dark Sun, make them more showmen and/or one on one combatants.
Just drop it. It's a fighter. It's like having a seperate class for a cat burglar. It's a friggin rogue!
Yep, nothing like good ol' watering down of the setting.
I'm not sure if Galdiator really needs it's own class, but Fighter is not sufficiently Gladiator to pull the job off in my opinion. That may all change with the next edition, but in 3.5 there needs to be a Gladiator class, because Fighter doesn't cut it. With some minor changes to Fighter, it works OK for a Gladiator falling back on PrC and some new feats to fleshout the flavor. Dropping Medium and Heavy Armor proficiency in trade for 4+ skill points and the addition of the skills: Bluff, Tumble, Balance, Performance (Arena), and maybe Sense Motive is the Bare minimum IMO necessary to turn a Fighter into a workable Gladiator. If you Drop the 1st bonus feat and automatically give them Improved Unarmed Strike with a modest unarmed damage progression, then I think you've got a pretty decent Gladiator.
As I said my varient fighter we're playtesting now has 4 skill points/level and a varient skill list which includes most of those skils. It doesn't exactly overpower the fighter and opens up alot more options for fighter types such as swashbucklers, gladiators and skirmisher types or even charismatic leader types.
A fighter with 4 skill points/level is alot less bothersome than a Druid or Cleric casting divine power and laying into something. I'm kinda working on 3.75 which I'll post here this weekend which rebalences most of the classes (hopefully). Most classes got more skill points and I powered down the worst abuses of the spellcaster classes (Natural Spell, Divine Metamagic, several PrCs, Divine Power and Righteous Might spells).
Heres what we're playtesting ATM in my game.
Fighter (As PHB except)
Skill point:4/level
Class Skills. Balence, Bluff, Climb, Craft, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Handle Animal, Intimidate,Jump, Profession, Ride,Sense Motive, Swim, Tumble, Use Rope.
I like my Fighter alot better than the PHB one and I could probably be convinced to make a varient fighter. A "Gladiator" would probaly use the following skills.
Balence
Bluff
Profession: Gladiator Used to appeal to the crowd etc)
Tumble
Others would also use other skills. I use the Complete Warrior and PHB2 for additional feats and you can use tactical feats as well to build your Gladiator. My fighter can also be used to fill out other archtypes for a fighter alot easier than the PHB which lends itself heavily towards sword and shield types a'la Knights or 2 handed types with no social skills. I use mine for swashbucklers, sailors, tactical fighters quick on their etc. Onecould easily multiclass but not everyone wants to do that or in the case of non humans may give you a 20% xp hit.
Stormwrack also has rules for Profession:Sailor which expands on the PHB. Profession:Gladiator could also be expanded to appeal to the crowd or to qualify for various feats. Fighter5/Gladiator X (Sword and Fist) would make a great Gladiator or even just straight Fighter. To me gladiator should be a charcter description not a class as such- 2nd ed was quite limited in that regard.Barbarians, Fighters, Rangers, Rogues, Scouts, Psywarriors and multiclass combination therof would be the most common but any gladiator is possable. Spellbuffed Clerics and Templars, even an insane wizard via tensers transformation/polymorph/stoneskin etc could give it a good go.
Athas.orgs gladiator probably stands a good chance of gettng hacked to pieces by most of the martial classes.
Gladiator, as much as Templar and poisonous bard so tied to the setting that if you remove them, you might just want to play an Al-Qadim game.
Btw, the Merchant class is another that have been forgotten. I always said that the Merchant House are a BIG part of the setting and I still dont understand why they can't make it back to official... Anyway, there are surely ways to create a few Merchant House PrC that would find Ds flavor. Remember Eberron, did you ever had a thought about where did come from idea of Houses and their representants? It's been taken right from Darksun.
Knowing all the strange weapons was a big part of the original class... and one aspect that separates it from fighters and other melee classes.
Perhaps some talent trees (ala ranger) to further specialize within the class?
The trader class could easily be a NPC expert class with various feats and profession merchant and diplomacy skills.
Why do you guys want to design a class for everything? Muc easier/quicker to use existing stuff. Let some else do the work and tweak it.
Eberron has very little in common with Darksun merchant houses. Dragonmarked houses are alot different.
THOUGH, yes I want more classes and no I dont really want it more easier. I want it closer to my setting. I dont want to have a Darksun Vanilla.
I'm not speaking about the mecanic behind the house, but the idea which is very similar.
THOUGH, yes I want more classes and no I dont really want it more easier. I want it closer to my setting. I dont want to have a Darksun Vanilla.
It wasn't exactly original for Darksun either. Drow for example had trading houses in earely 80's gaming material and guild like houses are reasonably common in fantasy literature. I have a good chunk of 3.5 books and theres alot that you can adapt and tweak. I remember some merchant feats somewhere that let you aquire stuff for cheaper. The PHB2 has association rules which could be used for a merchant and the DMG2 has guild type feats.
3.0/3.5 is a bit different than previous editons. Someone may call themselves a fighter but they may be a Fighter/Ranger/Barbarian or whatever multiclass. In essence they're a fighter as thats their role but they may only have a single Fighter level. Thats why I'm not a huge fan of a gladiator class (ok PrC though) as the "gladiator" could be one of several classes to choose to fight in the ring.
For the same reason I'm not a fan of the Assassin PrC. Just make death attack a feat. An assassin is some who murders for money but most classes could make that decision for example.
Yes, some Dune Trader type PrCs are good and useful, but as a base class, it's got no meat.
For 4th edition, I don't think we're going to see a specific Gladiator. It looks (even more) like the fighter will cover the niche.
Interestingly, from what I've seen, the 4e fighter == ds1 gladiator, and 4e Warlord == ds1 fighter. The mapping is already there, and every role doesn't need a class.
Yes, I know, I'm doing a 180 on my opinion of the necessity of a Gladiator class, at least for the new edition. Of course, we'll see, when the new rules come out.
Among those powers would be the current crowd-based abilities.
I propose this: When the time comes let's try to make a 4E gladiator class, come up with abilities and moves never before seen in 4E, and then abolish the class we just tried to make and instead take those powers (as they are now called in 4E) and make them availlable to the fighter as part of a broader list unqiue to DS.
Among those powers would be the crowd-based powers.
Sounds good. I need to learn how to articulate myself better. I'm kinda blunt on message boards and offend people.
IRL one of my friends tells me its not that you say but how you say it. He often agrees with an arguement I'm making but not how I phrase it. He says to use more of these
:D :P ;) :embarrass 
He says to use more of these
Your friend is wise then. Those help a lot and in most instances, but there are a few times when it doesn't. In those few instances, no matter how you say it, sugar coat it, or put smilies next to it, no one will be willing to believe your bluntness and rather will believe you're a bad chap.
Sounds good. I need to learn how to articulate myself better. I'm kinda blunt on message boards and offend people.
IRL one of my friends tells me its not that you say but how you say it. He often agrees with an arguement I'm making but not how I phrase it. He says to use more of these
I find it is best to try and read my post with a very sensitive "ear" to see if I hear an insult. If I do, I will try to write it differently.
Unless, of course, I am trying to insult someone, or using sarcasm (with smileys of course!!! :P )
Same could be said for Templars (Cleric) and DS Bards (Rogue). Gladiators are just as much part of Dark Sun, make them more showmen and/or one on one combatants.
I think that what makes a character archtype to have his class independent from other is not just because he plays a different role from all others (for example, melee combat or spell artilery, of healing buffs, stealth, etc.), but we also must look at the world: In Faerum (Forgotten Realms) maybe there is no need for a Samurai class, to have just the fighter would be ok; but and in Rokugan? In Rokugan, given the importance and amount of Samurais in the world it is very reasonable for game designers to build a Samurai class in paralel with the fighter class.
In Dark Sun it happes with the gladiator (and other classes too, for instance, the bard).
The problem is not if the Gladiator should belong to a separate class, but how the Gladiator class should be.
Is not just beacause the current official Gladiator class doesn´t make people happy, that the Gladiator class should be merged into the fighter.
P.S.: For the ones, like me, that do not pretend to move to 4e, and about the discussion about the gladiator skills list, I´m against the inclusion of skills such as Bluff and Sense Motive.
Why should gladiators have Bluff as class skill? Are they skilled liers? No. If the problem is with the use of feint in combat, my suggestion is to enable the gladiator to use the Perform Skill to feint in combat.
Finally, for the ones that forget, I would like to remember that I have also proposed a standart Gladiator class. Just look at this tread: http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=739193&page=4