I got into Dark Sun as a kid when it was released back in ’91 and have all of the products – from the originals on into the expanded and revised releases (including most of the Dragon/Dungeon issues with DS related articles). I’ve read a few threads and am curious to see what the community thinks of certain ideas put forward in the books (the first boxed set and 'The Prism Pentad' are, in my opinion, the backbone of the setting) and later gaming material. I can see that I’m not the only one that’s curious about what Denning/Brown et al would have done with the setting had they been able to retain creative control…
There are many issues I have opinions on – and these are purely from a creative stand-point (game mechanics aren’t my interest or forte) – particularly Elemental Priests.
Elemental Clerics on Athas always struck me as one of the most interesting character types – considering the state of the Tyr Region and the known world, these characters seemed to have unlimited scope for challenging and tragic story arcs – none more so than the Water Cleric. I served as DM when the game-line was originally released but one of my first and favourite characters as a player was an Elemental Priest of Water. When I took back duties as DM I set the timeline back five years prior to ‘The Verdant Passage’ and brought him back as an NPC. An entire storyline developed concerning the Mud Palace, an artifact linked to prophecy and his origins (not being native to the Tyr Region I envisioned his exiled and nomadic order originally being from a city-state beyond the Tyr Region…this was before the Expanded Boxed Set was released…but when it was, Saragar became the natural choice – but I changed quite a few things…one of which involved the Mind-Lords usurping control of the region from the city’s High Priestess-Queen (Advanced Being Water Elemental) and purging/exiling her loyal priesthood). It worked quite well.
Then came 'Earth, Air, Fire & Water'…and I remember having serious problems with it. I’d read the novels and Caelum’s introduction in ‘The Crimson Legion’ was one of the highlights of the series for me as it gave insight into one of the classes I was interested in the most. Much of the supplement, however, jars terribly with what Denning wrote. The whole elemental/paraelemental war didn’t feel right…especially considering that on reading ‘…Legion’ it's clear to me that Denning intended that Sun Clerics be Elemental Priests of Fire. So, this is my take on Elemental Priests as run in my campaigns (please feel free to comment and put your own ideas across):
1. Elemental Clerics are restricted to the core four elements (having read Troy Denning’s interview I think he has the same opinion). I don’t use the paralemental clerics as shown in the supplement – although I did find some of the ideas in ‘Earth, Air, Fire & Water’ intriguing and worked them in where I saw fit…
2. Prior to the introduction of genasi in Planescape I came up with an idea based on Denning’s work that works quite well. Post-Planescape, in my opinion, all Athasian elemental clerics are a form of genasi. Here’s my reasoning:
(a) in ‘The Amber Enchantress’ Caelum explains that a heavily pregnant Neeva exposes her belly to the sun for a reason… “If the child is to have the fire-eyes, the sun must kiss Neeva’s womb from dawn until dusk.” The ‘fire-eyes’ and the sun disc birth-mark of Sun Clerics is a sign of elemental favour. Evidently, elemental clerics are born with their elements favour - the 'chosen' of their patron element. I then extrapolated this outward to take in the other elements and created similar rituals that parents might undertake to ensure their child bore the desired physical marks and, thus, mystical connection to the worshipped element. For example, the water cleric NPC I mentioned earlier was a special case – he was born with strangely translucent blue eyes and a blue tear-like birth mark on each cheek, as did all water clerics, but he was a child of prophecy (hence my screen-name) and had a few unique extras including an extreme form of albinism (bleached white skin) and an aversion to sunlight. He looked strange...uniquely Athasian in his own way.
(b) Following the logic of Caelum’s explanation it seems that through particular rituals the elementals are petitioned by those wishing their child to bear the elemental marks and if successful the ‘essence’ of the element is instilled in the unborn child at some point before birth, creating a being that is a living conduit to the chosen element.
So, any thoughts – and does anyone else have any priest characters / NPCs / Character Elementals that they’d like to share?
I use the Spell Compendium as well and rule an Elemental Cleric must pick the Air/Earth/Fire/Water domain from the PHB and one other domain of there choice with the DMs permission- ie I generaly don't let the metal domain be taken on Athas. I made up Silt and Magma domains, use the Sun domain from the PHB and renamed the Windstorm domain Rain Domain for the paraelemental clerics.
I haven't DM'd in 10 ten years!I made up Silt and Magma domains, use the Sun domain from the PHB and renamed the Windstorm domain Rain Domain for the paraelemental clerics.
Yes, there is the Sun Domain in the PH, the Windstorm Domain from the Spell Compendium for Rain, and the Sand Domain from Sandstorm for Silt. The only one without any representation, which you noted, is Magma. Creating it can be done.
Another option I considered, though, was to just give the para-elementalists access to the two Domains which fit them.
Magma=Earth+Fire
Rain=Air+Water
Silt=Earth+Water
Sun=Air+Fire
See, normally, any of the regular elemental clerics would only have access to one elemental domain. Since these guys wouldn't crop up too often, giving them access to two elemental domains would work well.
It keeps striking me as weird that the Sun element is "bad" and an enemy of the Pact of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. Rain also is "bad".
I would love a "reinvention" of some of the Dark Sun concepts for 4E, in the light of many of the changes 4E will bring, among others things on elements and elementals, and the plane they come from.
It keeps striking me as weird that the Sun element is "bad" and an enemy of the Pact of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. Rain also is "bad".
I don't remember Rain ever being considered bad, at least not like the other paraelements. Personally I would hate to lose Silt Clerics, but all the other paraelementals are just spins on the other elements. Rain and Water aren't far off, Sun, Magma and Fire are damn close too. Silt really is it's own thing those having qualities in my mind that are similar to Air, Earth, and Water but really not that much like any of them.
I do think that a more clear take on the paraelements is in order. The idea of them being more concerned with quantity then quality seems to make sense to me, even for Rain after the advent of the Cerulean Storm. The fact that their worship is newer and less common seems to make good sense too. i don't think that clerics should be slanted towards good or evil based on their elemental affiliation. That seems to be supported by the 4e rules anyway, with the decreasing importance of alignment.
I would love a "reinvention" of some of the Dark Sun concepts for 4E, in the light of many of the changes 4E will bring, among others things on elements and elementals, and the plane they come from.
It keeps striking me as weird that the Sun element is "bad" and an enemy of the Pact of Earth, Air, Fire, and Water. Rain also is "bad".
Personally the idea of any of the (always true neutral) elementals being 'bad' is something I've never liked as well. I view the elemental clerics as a varied lot, since they can be of any alignment and any element, you can just as easily have an chaotic evil water cleric as a lawful good sun cleric, really there just another impersonal force to be utilized by people (much like arcane magic in any other setting).
Some elementals appeal to some alignments, thats fine, but they shouldn't be viewed as having some intrinsic tie to good or evil, or even law and chaos(although thats more acceptable in my view).
Jack
The paraelements are up to no good in the fact that if left unchecked they will upset the environmental balance on Athas and, I guess, cause many a death.
They are a bad thing, thus. Hence "bad". Is it clearer?
Bad as in a bad thing, not as in Evil, the alignment.
The paraelements are up to no good in the fact that if left unchecked they will upset the environmental balance on Athas and, I guess, cause many a death.
They are a bad thing, thus. Hence "bad". Is it clearer?
Sure I dig, but really an excess of any element kills all life on Athas anyway, so casting the para-elementals as any more dangerous seems odd to me. An excess of fire is clearly no better then an excess of magma after all.
Jack
Sure I dig, but really an excess of any element kills all life on Athas anyway, so casting the para-elementals as any more dangerous seems odd to me.
That's what the Pact is there for. It makes the elements the good guys and the paraelements the bad guys.
1. Elemental Clerics are restricted to the core four elements (having read Troy Denning’s interview I think he has the same opinion). I don’t use the paralemental clerics as shown in the supplement – although I did find some of the ideas in ‘Earth, Air, Fire & Water’ intriguing and worked them in where I saw fit…
2. Prior to the introduction of genasi in Planescape I came up with an idea based on Denning’s work that works quite well. Post-Planescape, in my opinion, all Athasian elemental clerics are a form of genasi. Here’s my reasoning:
(a) in ‘The Amber Enchantress’ Caelum explains that a heavily pregnant Neeva exposes her belly to the sun for a reason… “If the child is to have the fire-eyes, the sun must kiss Neeva’s womb from dawn until dusk.” The ‘fire-eyes’ and the sun disc birth-mark of Sun Clerics is a sign of elemental favour. Evidently, elemental clerics are born with their elements favour - the 'chosen' of their patron element. I then extrapolated this outward to take in the other elements and created similar rituals that parents might undertake to ensure their child bore the desired physical marks and, thus, mystical connection to the worshipped element. For example, the water cleric NPC I mentioned earlier was a special case – he was born with strangely translucent blue eyes and a blue tear-like birth mark on each cheek, as did all water clerics, but he was a child of prophecy (hence my screen-name) and had a few unique extras including an extreme form of albinism (bleached white skin) and an aversion to sunlight. He looked strange...uniquely Athasian in his own way.
(b) Following the logic of Caelum’s explanation it seems that through particular rituals the elementals are petitioned by those wishing their child to bear the elemental marks and if successful the ‘essence’ of the element is instilled in the unborn child at some point before birth, creating a being that is a living conduit to the chosen element.
So, any thoughts – and does anyone else have any priest characters / NPCs / Character Elementals that they’d like to share?
I tend to agree with you that in Dark Sun, elemental clerics are much more likely to be a form of genasi spontaneous spell casters (much like what the sorcerer is in relation to the standart wizard).
The idea of rituals is very interesting too. But why only unborn childs could be benefited by these rituals? Why not design some special rituals for childs or full grown individuals undertake by thenselves later on? I would consider that point, specially because we have to admit the possibility of a character multiclassing into the cleric class later in his carreer.
For paraelemental clerics, I agree with what have been said here. It´s a complete nonsense to consider paraelemental (except rain) bad and the others good. All elemental forces are neutral by essence.
However, instead of restricting clerics to the core elements (earth, air, fire and water), I have choose to do just the opposite: I´m working with paraelemental clerics only.
Since every cleric must choose two assigned Domains, the cleric in our game must choose two elemental domains to begin with, as long as these elements are not opposed to each other. Depending on the domains choosen by the cleric, he will be recognized as a "sun cleric" (acess to Fire and Air domains), a "rain cleric" (acess to Water and Rain domains), a "magma cleric" (acess to Earth and Fire domains) or a "silt cleric" (acess to Earth and Water domains) in our game.
It´s interesting because, having acess to two elemental domains, according to the granted power in the PHB, a elemental cleric will always be able to turn or rebuke elementals of any kind. For instance, a Sun Cleric (acess to Fire and Air domains) will be able to TURN water or earth elementals AND to REBUKE fire or air elementals.
I also treat clerics as spontaneous spellcasters, with spells per day as a cleric of the same level, and a number of spells known more or less equivalent to a sorcerer of same level (I´ve said more or less because clerics - diferent from a sorcerer - should attain new spells levels at every odd level - 1st, 3rd, 5th, and so on...) plus two bonus spells known per level according to his assigned domains (e.g., if a cleric has acess to fire and air domains, he´d get two bonus spells known from these domains).
With Athas being such a harsh environment, it seemed to make sense to me that even the clerics would be pretty tough cookies as well, and I like the idea of elemental kung-fu. :D
I look to two key features with regard to Elemental Clerics:
1. The first elemental clerics, those Rhulitsi who somehow became influenced by elemental 'Lords'; their actions in contaminating Lifeshaped creations and supporting the Life benders of the Blue Age.
2. Earth, Air, Fire and Water where much more thought is given to the competitive nature of the Elements and their cumulatively positive interaction where compatible - along with allowing personalities to inspire and influence clerics and even the world.
A given character may turn to the worship of an element due to a traumatic event or because they have a strong family tradition - equally as likely as during the Green Age (in my campaign) the Elemental Lords made a serious effort to be recognized and took on the persona of more 'normal' gods (your plethora of animal / emotional / seasonal figureheads). The Elemental Lords are definitely not the source of power, they're powerful (ancient) individuals who recognize a special value in Athas beyond mortal ken (so far).
I personally have a great interest in materials science as well, to me Fire isn't just fire - it's the composition of its fuel, environment and exhaust - the context of the combustion, its intensity - as the other elements too are composed of their own features that a deeply interested and religious person is likely to give deep and frequent consideration.
The Elemental Clerics to me hold special potential in focusing their entire lives on a source of material or energy and exploring it both physically and spiritually in many contexts.
They're potentially critical in advancing society on Athas (where literacy is restricted) as they're (sometimes) walking epiphanies looking for somebody (farmer, craftsman etc) to trigger.
Earth, Air, Fire and Water suggested for example that Earth and Water clerics might be adept at helping farmers make best use of their land and maintain it for future generations.
Personally I'd take that a step further and suggest that their combined interest might help them unlock an understanding of water tables or plants that deal well with reducing salinity as just two examples.
A cleric of Fire might advise a craftsman who gains a greater insight into the workings of kilns, glazing and pottery techniques - its been proven in our world that the most successful pottery and ceramics in early times were produced by those who understood how to control high temperature.
Interesting that you should mention rituals, the clerics of Athas I would expect would want to hand down their wisdom and insights by way of ritual, veiling their value from the Sorcerer Kings while encouraging future generations to explore the them and remember them by repetition.
Rituals explored might lead to an understanding that they contain clues that a cleric may follow to learn of previous clerics and the secrets they hid, consolidating facts and fiction from previous generations - a means of revealing the truth of events and people despite the best efforts of the Kings to rewrite history.
There is vast storytelling potential in the Elemental Clerics, from the most humble to mystery and pure action - there's even an X-Files kind of aspect you can explore too - 'Elemental Lords' as powerful individual personalities competing for influence through the ages - in their own way and with 'alien' (ie: beyond mortal understanding) schemes.
- Armor proficiencies are no longer tied to domains.
- Each domain gives proficiency in one martial or exotic weapon.
- Each domain gives one additional class skill.
- Domain names have been reduced to two words.
- Revamped spell lists.
I figure this will be of interest to you. In R7 we will be changing the way clerical domains work.
- Armor proficiencies are no longer tied to domains.
- Each domain gives proficiency in one martial or exotic weapon.
- Each domain gives one additional class skill.
- Domain names have been reduced to two words.
- Revamped spell lists.
Hmm, thats too bad I liked the armour thing, but all of them netting class skills is good too.
Are you just going to give clerics bakc heavy armour then?
Jack
I figure this will be of interest to you. In R7 we will be changing the way clerical domains work.
- Armor proficiencies are no longer tied to domains.
- Each domain gives proficiency in one martial or exotic weapon.
- Each domain gives one additional class skill.
- Domain names have been reduced to two words.
- Revamped spell lists.
Ok, the domains should be awesome. I never liked the long names anyway.
Sure you may not be able to use the Complete Divines/Spell Compendiums or any other sourcebooks domains officially but thens its up to each DM to allow Clerics to pick form non core domains. Just invent Silt/Magma/Rain domains as Sun is in the PHB as well.
Air and Celerity for example would be good domains for an Air cleric, Sun and Glory, Fire and Renewel, Earth and Plant etc etc etc. Just an idea.
Is their a chance the Clerics could just use the standard PHB domains? Eaxch cleric has to pick one domain of the right element (ie fire clerics get fire domain) and 1 more doamin of there choice? Makes it easier to "officially" let non core sourcebooks be used as most of us have extra D&D books.
Sure you may not be able to use the Complete Divines/Spell Compendiums or any other sourcebooks domains officially but thens its up to each DM to allow Clerics to pick form non core domains. Just invent Silt/Magma/Rain domains as Sun is in the PHB as well.
Air and Celerity for example would be good domains for an Air cleric, Sun and Glory, Fire and Renewel, Earth and Plant etc etc etc. Just an idea.
That works pretty well. I'm not sure why you would need permission to use that system. It's actually the one recommended in the Dragon conversion, if I remember correctly.
The problem that I have with the basic spell list and domains for elemental clerics is simply that they can't use the spells that are most tied to their element as much as they can cast completely non-elemental spells and on top of that they gain access to a number of spells which belong to other elements that they are able to use more then some that belong to their own element. The only way to address this is to rework the spell lists for elemental clerics into individual lists for each element and a general list of non elemental spells that all clerics get.
That works pretty well. I'm not sure why you would need permission to use that system. It's actually the one recommended in the Dragon conversion, if I remember correctly.
The problem that I have with the basic spell list and domains for elemental clerics is simply that they can't use the spells that are most tied to their element as much as they can cast completely non-elemental spells and on top of that they gain access to a number of spells which belong to other elements that they are able to use more then some that belong to their own element. The only way to address this is to rework the spell lists for elemental clerics into individual lists for each element and a general list of non elemental spells that all clerics get.
I agree but that makes it alot more complicated. Also Clerics in 3.5 kinda need spells that often weren't around in 2nd ed- Divine Power, Righteous Might etc. I would like that system myself but you kinda need a simpler system IMHO for game rules in general. YOu don't want a 10 page class description for clerics and also theres alot of non core spells as well I like using.
I should clarify. The domain revision is a suggestion at this stage. We will post an article on athas.org shortly for public feedback.
Thanx for the heads up. More than a few ideas have been thrown around on this thread anyway.
The article is available at athas.org in the articles section.
Do you have a link for that? I'm having trouble finding it! Thanks
.I haven't been around for a while but just wanted to say thanks for the comments...over a year later. ;)