Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 joboo Jan 22, 2008 0:51:52	Let's play pretend... You have been lucky enough to be chosen as one of Wizards of the Coast's leaders on a new project, Dark Sun for fourth edition D&D. Yea! Congratulations you get paid to work on the new face for Dark Sun! But wait, there is a catch, your boss wants you to push the timeline for Dark Sun forward somewhere within the range of 200 to 500 years. Ouch! As the lead writer and designer for the future of the Dark Sun game how many years would you advance? Then how would you change the game world, keep in mind you must try to keep the setting fresh and interesting, (no change will get you canned). You are now in charge of the history and can choose what material is "canon" and what is not. You also can choose what history is true what history is lost, what was just political propaganda, and what history is pure myth (example; you can say that the halfling creation story was a myth yet it did cause Rajaat to begin the cleansing war.) You can choose to bring back old Sorcerer kings, Dragons, or even invent new ones (What if Sadira rose to power as a SK?). Just remember that it is still Dark Sun and you must keep its flavor (no magic railcars and that kind of junk). I would like to see some of your ideas. It shall be a new era of fear, corruption, and survival and you are in charge!
#2 Zardnaar Jan 22, 2008 1:18:46	I posted this idea a few weeks ago. I would set it in FY 1015 or so and I would put a Sorcerer King in each city in the Tyr region. I woud also make Sadira the Sorcerer Queen of Tyr. I would make the campaign slightly nicer than tradional DS- ie preservers don't get killed and I would minimise the event of the Prism Pentad which would be ancient history. The Tyr region would have more water due to Sadira syphoning off water from the Cerulean Storm which also has the side effect of no more Tyr Storms. The focus of the campaign would be the restoration of Athas. I would also minimise Psionics (heretic) as for every person that likes them about 10 hate it. I like 3.5 Psionics alot but not 1st,2nd or 3rd ed Psionics for some reason. I would also refocus the campaign on the Tyr region.
#3 Pennarin Jan 22, 2008 8:52:16	Let's play pretend...your boss wants you to push the timeline for Forgotten Realms forward somewhere within the range of 200 to 500 years. Try and find a fan who would accept this. Why would I, as a Dark Sun fan, accept the same for my setting?
#4 brun01 Jan 22, 2008 9:05:06	I agree with Penn. I don't think Athas has another 500 years ahead without some sort of huge PC intervention.
#5 ishan_wh Jan 22, 2008 9:08:49	I wouldnt like that the DS Timeline get pushed 200 or 500 years in the FY... The themes that could be made, would be an adventure where Sadira has to choose to become a SK or an Avangion (with the help of Oronis), on the other hand the third novel of Lynn Abbey wouldnt be part of the canon, as in Hamanu the mighty King is still alive... You could push the timeline a couple of decades maybe 20 or 30 years, that would be interesting... Also Tithian could be back, someone found a way to release him but the Tyr storms are completely out of control, Tithian could be a SK, since he knows where the Dark Lens are? Rikus would probably be dead or a very old mul, he is probably retired in Kled LOL As for Pavek (thanks to Lynn Abbey for that character) he would be around his 50´s as an important Templar - Druid Dunno about the rest, the kid king from Draj would be a man by then so who knows what he could do with Draj... Dregoth might be scheming something big too... Anyways these are just thoughts Thanks PS Is it for real that there is gonna be a DSC 4th edition???
#6 joboo Jan 22, 2008 17:17:07	You may be right Penn, the die hard fan usually does not take change kindly unless it is written by the same authors of the past. As you already know, even these writers have creative overlords. While the fan is reluctant for change of any sort (unless a whole slew of novels were written to fill the gap), someone who loves games, creativity, and story telling would find that world building positive and rewarding experience. I guess I was directing my question to those creative individuals who like to daydream and to tell stories. Not those who only read them. As a game designer it is your job to both With a fan base that would never want Dark Sun to be refreshed, good luck with ever seeing a hardcover, new suppliment guides, or novels. If the fan base is happy with what it has period, than perhaps Dark Sun has no future. Yet, I do congratulate those die hard fans that work hard converting all the rules to third edition. I am for for the fan, yet as a fan and a creative individual I want Dark Sun to be refreshened. Why? Because I am beginning to loath the Message board for this game world because the same topics get discussed over and over ( what do you think about SK's? What do you think blah?) With no new writers (and fans wouldn't listen to them any way unless they were Lynn Abbey) the world becomes bland, like if you ate the same cereal every day. You can only read the same books so many times before you become a piece of cardboard. So without the novels, a creative writing team, Dark Sun spins it wheels and never moves forward.
#7 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jan 22, 2008 17:27:20	The thing is, Athas is on it's dying breath. As others have posted, there probably isn't 200 - 500 years left. The world is supposed to be on the brink of complete destruction. It isn't a matter of being a "die hard fan" or whatnot, what it is, is that the timeline is being pushed TOO far forward. There is a grim, gritty nature of Dark Sun, where it is nearing becoming completely uninhabitable and desolate, if not completely destroyed. Its sun is roughly equivalent to a supergiant star nearing nova status, thanks to constant and blatant use of magical energies that aged the star far more rapidly than it needed to be. 200 - 500 years in the future is far too optimistic for Athas' survival. Your insults at the community are not very welcome. There has been a lot of development that moves forward with the storyline, Dregoth Ascending being one of them. You can advance a storyline without needing to have some kind of artificial leap into the future. As it stands, after the events which led up to the release of the Expanded version of Dark Sun (the 2nd boxed set), Dark Sun is a lot more dangerous, no longer safe and secure as it once was. Things have changed, and not for the better. Almost over night, the status quo that existed for thousands of years was destroyed, leaving a massive set of huge waves ripping across the cultures. My point is you are being extremely limited in what you perceive as "creativity". You are looking at (what I believe to be) an illogical leap forward in time that serves really no purpose. Rather than paying any attention to expanding the setting, you are more interested in pushing some metaplot forward... which a lot of DS fans here on the forums don't even like the metaplot, they would rather have a toybox available to construct their own campaigns, not have some story driving it where all the campaigns do is play second-fiddle to. We'd rather, you know, "create" our campaigns, rather than just read them (to coin your analogical phrase).
#8 cnahumck Jan 22, 2008 17:45:17	I have to agree with xplore here. Athas in the current (athas.org) time is much more dangerous (if minutely less repressive) than before. Big bad SK's kept things in line, and the vacuum cannot be filled. Dangerous times are ahead
#9 Pennarin Jan 22, 2008 18:43:31	The timeline can be advanced, but a few years only, less than 10, IMO, to keep it enjoyable yet bring in change. Otherwise most known NPCs are dead. Quite simple.
#10 Zardnaar Jan 22, 2008 22:00:49	The timeline can be advanced, but a few years only, less than 10, IMO, to keep it enjoyable yet bring in change. Otherwise most known NPCs are dead. Quite simple. Thats a major advantage IMHO about advancing the timeline. You leave the Prism Pentad far behind and you can save any arguements on what happens to XYZ NPC. My FY 1015 idea focuses on the restoration of Athas and in the intervening years Sadira has figured ouy how to syphon off water from the Cerulean Storm. Between FY 15 and 105 the world improves slightly and Tyr has the River Agis under the elven bridge for example. While purists might like the brutality of Dark Sun it probably done more harm than good to the setting- not enough people bought it it it got canned. Theres a chance it may be resurrected in 4th ed.
#11 joboo Jan 22, 2008 22:00:54	Thank goodness xplor! I had to try to spice up the forum in some way and I apologize to any one that was offended by my remarks. You must understand that have been following these forums for nearly 6 years now and I have been getting board with the same conversations and I wanted to feel out some ideas for my next campaign. Since many heroes have fallen (characters have been made and destroyed), and many characters have advanced many levels I thought it would be interesting to see what Athas could be like in 200-500 years (I didn't know about the forgotten realms time advancement, sorry for the indirect insult on that!). I have wondered much about what Dark Sun would be like if it had advanced. I have to admit xplor, your argument is the most intellegent and respectful, thank you. As for the community I know they do not deserve to be singled out as they are growing that is why the same questions get asked over and over again. It was unfortunate that I appeared as a bully when I made my comment on the forum, I truly am sorry. Since Dark Suns impending apocalyptic/post apocalyptic like feeling would be compromised if the setting was pushed that far, if a new setting was to be published how far would you advance the time line. Consider the many campaigns that have been played since the Age of Heroes boxed set. How many years have gone by in your own personal campaign and how many times have you reset the time back to free year 10?
#12 joboo Jan 22, 2008 22:19:45	Yeah, I just reread my second post, and I really sounded like a jerk. Believe me I really am sorry for ranting like that. Penn, Explor, you guys have been here for a long time and have read most of the forums, I congratulate you guys for sticking to your guns. I know that your goal (even as athas.org) is to keep Dark Sun as close to its original form as possible. Sometimes I get frustrated with it because I am more liberal about it (as you guys pointed out at times too liberal). I have had many good discussions and even arguments in the past about things like the planes, races, and many more things yet even as I am so eager to see it reborn I always go back to it. Once again I apologize and thank you xplor for standing up to my lashing.
#13 Zardnaar Jan 22, 2008 22:21:49	The timeline can be advanced, but a few years only, less than 10, IMO, to keep it enjoyable yet bring in change. Otherwise most known NPCs are dead. Quite simple. Thats a major advantage IMHO about advancing the timeline. You leave the Prism Pentad far behind and you can save any arguements on what happens to XYZ NPC. My FY 1015 idea focuses on the restoration of Athas and in the intervening years Sadira has figured ouy how to syphon off water from the Cerulean Storm. Between FY 15 and 105 the world improves slightly and Tyr has the River Agis under the elven bridge for example. While purists might like the brutality of Dark Sun it probably done more harm than good to the setting- not enough people bought it it it got canned. Theres a chance it may be resurrected in 4th ed.
#14 huntmasteravatar Jan 23, 2008 5:05:12	i would progress the story and the world 500 years into the future without leaving anything out. instead of just skipping ahead i would play the entire story out so the fans could read/use the material in their games and see how it fits so it doesnt bother them so much. Athas needs change, its either going to get better or worse. the fans need to accept something is going to happen. so would they prefer the setting come to an end with the complete extinction of life on athas, or would they rather see it restored? OR would the company be willing to do both and give everyone what they want. i want to see some of the mysteries solved and old rivalries play out, i do not want a (this happened and now everything is differant) approach after 10+ years with no new info. I am not a fan of keeping the setting Exactly the same. the worlds dying and needs to change. but i would not like the setting to be done in the past. time travel adventures are fine, but not the focal point. also would like to see the war with the thrikreen,deadlands and tablelands to play out. but no matter what i would not pull a FR timejump and just recast the setting. that would spell doom for athas. we need to see the progression, not hear about it. if we hear about it first, then all that will be talked about is, Oh no another time jump. but if info is coming out that progresses the setting one step at a time, then the fans will accept and like it. Not all fans feel the same as the forum fans do. i know quite a few hardcore DS fanatics and they really want New content to use that shows them what will happen after the fall of the dragon. they don't believe rajaat is done with the story yet and neither do i. Also psionics should not be treated as outcasts because almost EVERYONE on athas is psionic, its almost like somethings wrong with you if your not psionic. Wizardry should be dependant on the location, some cities treat it differantly than others. psionics on the other hand should be embraced. the order needs to play a bigger role, or atleast be less subtle about their existance, be included in more of the story. New AB's need to come out, a blend of elemental and magic with no psionics at all. and raw material needs to not be so rare. they have mountains with minerals in them, they just need to find and use them. new minerals could be included on athas that is unique to the world. also the inclusion of mysticism would be nice, a new form of divine magic, but not granted by the gods. they could be like soulcasters who use their own lifeforce to power these clerical spells.
#15 cnahumck Jan 23, 2008 6:40:40	The problem with advancing the storyline is the same problem that exist in any bad novel or bad TV show. I hate it when show talks about an event that happens, rather than showing the event. The later Robert Jordan novels are like this. I don't want to know about what Mat thought about entering the temple and doing it; I want to see it. So, when it comes to advancing the storyline, we need to be careful. Too much, and people loose their ability to see the changes. And in Role Playing, they want to be the changes. It would be better to set up the Kreen Invasion as an epic adventure, or as a threat well supported with Setting Materials and let the DM's decide what to do with it. As a player, do you want to be told how the SK's managed to unite the city-states and fight off the undead from the Deadlands and the Kreen simultaneously while also managing to keep Dregoth from getting to much power? or do you want to do that yourself?
#16 huntmasteravatar Jan 23, 2008 8:49:45	both. just because something is written in a novel doesnt mean it cant be used as an adventure. and just because it is in novel form doesnt mean it cant change slightly for the adventure. and in the adventure new things could happen. it seems that people do not and are not willing to accept anything outside their own personal views. its either canon or nothing. i don't think like that. i don't want the world to reflect my thoughts or it would get dull and boring, i want something new. something to refresh my love for the setting.
#17 cnahumck Jan 23, 2008 9:01:54	both. just because something is written in a novel doesnt mean it cant be used as an adventure. and just because it is in novel form doesnt mean it cant change slightly for the adventure. and in the adventure new things could happen. it seems that people do not and are not willing to accept anything outside their own personal views. its either canon or nothing. i don't think like that. i don't want the world to reflect my thoughts or it would get dull and boring, i want something new. something to refresh my love for the setting. I guess what I am saying is that I want a world were changes are set up to happen, and that the characters that exist have their goals and motivations, but that the individual DM's get to determine what happens. And I think this is best when the players are the ones acting, rather than being witnesses to an event. Would you, as a player, rather hear about the assassination of Kalak, or be the assassin? which is more fun?
#18 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jan 23, 2008 9:08:18	One of the problems I had with the Dragonlance setting for a long time was directly related to the fact that there were very good novels that had come out for it. The novels more or less covered everything major in Dragonlance lore, it helped flesh out the setting, but it left something where I would always feel "great, but...what's left to do in my campaign?" It got a little better when the storyline was advanced, because in that instance, everything had been written out, and the excellent books from Dragonlance made it less appealing for me, as a DM, to play any campaigns in it. Dark Sun, on the other hand, only has a very small set of novels. Some are better than others on points, but they do a decent enough job of getting a rough idea on the setting. Sure, the setting went through radical changes from one boxed set to th next, but those changes didn't answer everything. In fact, there are a wide variety of interpretations as to what the after-effects of those events had on the world. It is a malleable setting, one where very little is known, and which I personally can shape into campaigns of my own creation. Advancing the storyline like what happened with Krynn/Dragonlance isn't really necessary for me. There is a lot of unanswered questions, a lot of new problems that have cropped up, and for me, it is the perfect time for an adventuring party to start... at the cusp of massive changes. Or, in my particular view of Dark Sun, the "beginning of the end". When I run campaigns, I don't want to just do what is already written. I don't want to have some sort of overarching plotline I need to follow that I didn't personally develop... it seems less..... "creative" (sic) to me. I know others do it, and more power to them, it just isn't my particular style. If the storyline is advanced, I'd feel that it becomes something I am "forced" into adhering to, even if I don't want to.
#19 huntmasteravatar Jan 23, 2008 9:22:12	#1. i would ofcourse rather play out events, but if novels come out and modules supporting each other, then i could do both. #2 i agree with wanting to do something and use creativity. completely. and i understand that some people read something in a novel and say "this is how it happened and nothing can or should change that" But i believe that when playing the game, you should use your creative juices to change the storyline somtimes. its not breaking canon at all because the novels still exist, and you can always start a new campaign sticking to the novels. i don't like saying alternate realities, but you could play a series of games where its canon, then a series of games where the canon fails and the villain wins but the players survive to expeariance these new events. you can do and run anything you want. the more games the happier the players are. i have run war of the lance twice so far. once by canon, once homebrew. my players had nothing but fun both times.
#20 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jan 23, 2008 11:12:29	#1. i would ofcourse rather play out events, but if novels come out and modules supporting each other, then i could do both. See, I don't even like to use modules... I'm not a fan of things that are "pre-canned" #2 i agree with wanting to do something and use creativity. completely. and i understand that some people read something in a novel and say "this is how it happened and nothing can or should change that" Less of a "this is how it happened and nothing can or should change that", and more of a sense of being trapped into following those events. To me, the plots end up becoming more like a prison cell, restricting a lot of flexibility. But i believe that when playing the game, you should use your creative juices to change the storyline somtimes. its not breaking canon at all because the novels still exist, and you can always start a new campaign sticking to the novels. i don't like saying alternate realities, but you could play a series of games where its canon, then a series of games where the canon fails and the villain wins but the players survive to expeariance these new events. you can do and run anything you want. the more games the happier the players are. i have run war of the lance twice so far. once by canon, once homebrew. my players had nothing but fun both times. I avoided playing the War of the Lance like a plague. It has been done, and overdone. Great story, great ideas... horrible in my opinion for a RPG campaign.
#21 huntmasteravatar Jan 23, 2008 13:54:55	canon is nothing more than a word to me, i simply am not bothered if i change things and have a differance in storylines from the novels. i have never had a complaint. then again i like to run both canon and homebrew for the full flavor. as for the war of the lance, it was very fun, i changed some stuff the second time through. one of my players got so into the battle while dragon riding he couldnt stay in his seat. it was entertaining, looked like he was on drugs or something which he wasnt. the best was at the end when our pc mage who took on the role of the sword of paladin aided the players at the end. he actually stole the miceram at the end instead of how it originally was which caused a huge event that lasted much longer than the regular end of the wotl. the green gemstone man was also alot of fun to roleplay. but dragonlance wouldnt be the best exsample. when i played dregoth the first time we ran it canon, but the time after that dregoth was defeated for good. we took his head, but it took around 13 times of fighting him over about 8 months. but back on topic, i would show the progression of the timeline instead of just skippin ahead and providing a limited history lesson.