Lost Champions of Raajat.
Yuan-Ti, Gnolls, Minotaurs, Centaurs, Loxo, Trents, Quaggoths, and Kenku are all examples of species that Rajaat might have sought to cleanse the same way Orcs, Ogres, etc. were removed from Athas. Is this something that has been discussed here or elsewhere before? Where would this concept fit in with the Dark Sun cannon/fannon?
With the Decade of Heroes come and gone and so many supernatural power-vacuums left, who is pulling the strings on the cosmological level?
Have I misjudged the importance of the Sorcerer Kings in the setting then? As I understand it they are the gears that move the setting. Maybe the question I need to be asking than is what/who do Dark Sun DM's use as the manipulators and puppeteers in their campaigns?
The number of Sorcerer-Kings is *extremely limited*, and they are a subset of the Champions of Rajaat -- not all of them. Only the rebels who overthrew Rajaat and worked with Borys the Dragon to keep him imprisoned in the Hollow became Sorcerer-Kings. They are powerful, true. But, they are not the entirety of the "superpowers" of the setting. There is The Order, the Mind Lords, and I'd bet a number of other things going on in the world. The SK's are basically an "exclusive" feature of the Tablelands/Tyr Region (extending up to Kurn/Eldaarich).
With the Decade of Heroes come and gone and so many supernatural power-vacuums left, who is pulling the strings on the cosmological level?
Nobody, hence the term "power vacuum" The change has resulted in a lot of really bad consequences for those city-states: Raam, Draj, Balic, and even Tyr are not doing so well without their sorcerer-kings around. Raam is outright anarchy, Balic is divided amongst three different Merchant Houses, Draj is on the precipice of going sour if the moon priests and psions are revealed for pushing their fraud on the people. Tyr would probably do better if a) the leadership actually had any clue as to how to operate as a democracy (or what a democracy really is), and b) could affect any kind of real power over the masses. For all the troubles the Sorcerer-Kings have caused over the past two thousand years, they did maintain the status quo and upheld order in the Tablelands...more or less. Nothing has filled the power vacuums, and the Tablelands are literally ripping apart at the seams as a result.
Other exciting problems on an epic scale.... the Deadlands to the South. The Tohr-Kreen Empire at the base of the Jagged Cliffs running West (for who knows how far). And then there is the big question I've tossed around... is Rajaat truly imprisoned any more or not? If anything, the state of Athas in general has only progressed from bad to worse after the events of the Prism Pentad. There is no need to plug up the power vacuums with new Champions. Personally, I think that expanding outward in the setting, we shouldn't see more of the same we already do... things should really be diversified, we shouldn't see more Sorcerer-Kings anywhere. There are other things that could go bump in the night.
There were a lot of (political) changes during the Prism Pentand series I personally did not like that much, but I dont think there is an urgent need for more Champions of Rajaat.
again, so far all the AB's are blah/psionic. we need some Non psionic AB's.
Wizard/Cleric
Cleric/Wizard
Druid/Whatever
i also see nothing wrong with adding more champions to your own game. adding more content to increase the funfactor is never bad if your players like it.
And he is not even really that powerful in FFN. Though, I have some ideas for improvements...
Regardless, Champions are old news, and the new threats are much more interesting. Kreen Invasion, Deadlands, these are the things that are terrible and need to be held at bay. Who knows what kind of monstrosities exist in both places, waiting to devour the tablelands.
And what lies on the other side of the Silt Sea, or north of the Last Sea and the Barrier Wastes and the Trembling Plains? I have ideas, but nothing is set in stone...
I think I'm starting to pin down what I really appreciate about the Sorcerer-Kings and why I want to create original content involving that *type* of villainous mastermind. Truth be told, it's the pseudo-godhood. It the ability to take the magical energies of the elemental plains and pass them on to subordinates in a way that one doesn't often see in D&D campaigns. Moreover, these pseudo-gods are interested in dominating their pockets of civilization, whereas elemental priests have--at least according to sources like "Earth, Air, Fire, and Water"--more cosmological concerns and possibly less interest in dominating their societies.
so far all the AB's are blah/psionic. we need some Non psionic AB's.
Wizard/Cleric
Cleric/Wizard
Druid/Whatever
Your ideas above sound like they could make for dynamite hooks for variations on the pseudo-god theme.
Are there DMs or fan developers out there that have given thought to developing clerical associations with the Gray and the Black? I know there are wizards that draw their power form the Gray and the Black, but what about an order of priests devoted to the undeath of the Gray or the nothingness of the Black? Is it possible that a Cleric/Wizard or Cleric/Psion could manage to create a conduit of power associated with something outside of the elemental planes?
In thinking about this I pictured the very Dark Sun imagine of a psionic-lich-creature ruling a city from a central temple-structure with dozens of gray-robed priests bowing in worship to scrap up a smidgen of his/her power. Is this a Dark Sun cliche or would seasoned players appreciate this kind of variation?
I'd say that some other locations where there was (or maybe is) water, you have a high chance of a society/culture existing in or around it. Due to the way Athas' past as been, I'd say it isn't a far-flung notion that some super powerful being or beings have laid claim and/or control of the civilization. Remember that Democracy is not the most common form of government in Earth's history, I don't think it would be a stretch to make the same argument for Athas, especially where the environment is a bit harder, and some unified leadership would be almost a necessity in most cases. As the cleche goes, power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Even if the benevolent dictator was originally put in place for good intentions, stretch out time for a couple thousand years, and the good intentions erode, eventually become forgotten, and replaced with just retaining and maintaining, as well as potentially expanding that power.
Now, we could work with the notion of one of the Advanced Beings (which by their nature, are creatures that use psionics to enhance/expand magical potential and power). However, if we go with the concept that Rajaat's running around and killing off races was a somewhat localized event (which the known/written materials sort of imply) to in and around the Sunrise Sea/Sea of Silt area, the lands surrounding the immediate area of the Pristine Tower, it could be reasoned that Arcane Magic may not be too prolific away from the Tablelands. Rajaat made it, after all, and if he didn't really spread too far from the Pristine Tower, his influence on the world at large may not be too great. Sure, several millenia passing since his creation of Arcane Magic could have easily gotten some Arcane Magic knowledge spread. From what we know about how Rajaat taought Arcane Magic, he started with teaching Preserver magic. So, I'd almost think that when you get far away from the "known world" of the Tablelands, Preservers may be the more common variety of arcane spellcasters. At the same time, Defilers tend to be on the move a lot, so they could have also spread out, and there may be some.
There is the question of how much damage that actually exists on the Athasian landscape as a whole. We know the Tablelands are pretty messed up. Due in large part to the Cleansing Wars, and Borys' little dance with insane animalistic rampage for a hundred years. the Sunrise Sea dried out, and became filled with choking silt. But what do we know of the surrounding areas? West of the Jagged Cliffs.... is a massive savannah. South of the Tablelands is a giant blot of obsidian. What about East of the Sea of Silt? We can probably assume that it is not doing too well, if only because the Sunrise Sea, the primary water source for the area, dried out. And to the North of the Last Sea? We really don't know much about it.
We don't know how far the Obsidian Plains spread. The Undead of the Deadlands tend to think the whole world has been covered in Obsidian... so I'd assume that the portal that caused the Obsidian Plains caused a pretty darned major catastrophe... What if the Obsidian Plains extend Southwards and Eastwards over an area comperable to the entirety of the known world of the Tablelands? What if it spread even further? If the Jagged Cliffs are something akin to a continental shelf (which is what they appear to be), all you would need is a similar shelf to be South of where we know the Deadlands to be, and the Obsidian could have poured down and spread over a rather significant amount of land... kind of a frightening concept. Even more disturbing is what if it still is slowly expanding, like a black volcanic glass equivalent of a glacier, growing in size/diameter each year... albeit at this point very slowly (maybe 1/16th of an inch every 50 or 60 years I'd rule as the fastest). So, we might be able to rule that to the South of the Tablelands, you have Obsidian. LOTS of Obsidian.
Then there's the Crimson Savannah to the West of the Jagged Cliffs. This extends over a region larger than the maps show (much like the Obsidian Plains of the Deadlands). Given the coloring of the Athasian sky (olive), it could be representative of the reflection of the color that the majority of Athas actually is. That would suggest then that maybe Athas is a world covered in savannahs and other green lands, once again, with landlocked bodies of water occasionally in areas, where civilizations could spring up.
The Athasian timeline suggests that the Rhulisti were the unabashed rulers of the world in the Blue Age. Not much is known about them otherwise, but what is known is they had mastered lifeshaping. They also made the Pristine Tower which drew power from the sun and cleansed the world from the "Brown Tide" that was destroying all of the water (I'd like to point out that silt, when mixed in water, makes a sort of murky brownish colored water, but I digress). I've wondered occasionally about how much power the one Pristine Tower could have had in order to affect the whole world -- that would be a considerably high power source... something that if/when Rajaat wielded it, he would have surely been able to scour the world of all of the Rebirth Races using the Tower alone.
Another thought would be that the Pristine Tower was but one of numerous similar towers constructed to all work together in conjunction with each other to rid the world of the Brown Tide, and then affect the Rebirth on a global scale. This idea could then mean there is a chance that the Rebirth races exist in a more widespread pattern around the world... and that maybe Rajaat's "vision" was umm.... not "global enough" possibly, or other portents that I'd rather not think about right now (that he'd already "cleansed" other regions, and/or he was planning on doing so with other regions once done with this one, or what have you). I'd think that like a true zealot, he had some mental blocks... "blinders" if you will, that made him more or less disregard anything that didn't fit into his perfect little plan, including the size and scope of the whole world (underestimating what he needed to do).
If there are Rebirth Races elsewhere in the world, there may or may not be massive effects of Arcane Magic use, and who knows... there could be room for any number of options. I'd say that there is more than enough room to come up with an assortment of possibilities. I'd say there are Spirits of the Land (druid advanced beings) and "Element Lords" (cleric/psionic advanced beings). The elemental/paraelemental war might be fought somewhere with open warfare between the factions. there could be Spirits of the Land competing for or fighting over territory. Or there could be something entirely different. What if there were some lifeshaped creatures that gained sentience and became powerful creatures in and of themselves vying for control of the world... left-over creatures from the Blue Age. There is quite an assortment of possibilities, even ones I haven't thought up to put in this comment.
I have wondered if maybe the Silt Sea is a local phenomenon, and doesn't exist outside of the Tablelands area. If we take that the Tablelands are on a contenental shelf, then maybe the silt is just from Borys' rampage, and doesn't exist other places. I like the idea about the olive sky.
Other thoughts:
There are the crimson wardens that live in the south of the Deadlands, who control the Bugdead Hordes. I remember something about Ice being down there, and another large drop off, perhapse the edge of another continental shift. I think it is detailed in SotDL, but since that is not in production, who knows what is going on with it.
I like the idea of the Pristine Tower being one of a few, but here is a wrench in your idea: the Crimson Monolith. Maybe, there are many Monoliths, and Rajaat twisted the tower to his purposes because it was the hub, or center of a large, worldwide network of towers. the Monolith seems to be able to transport people, if you know how to make it work. Who knows where it goes?
I would love to see things further expanded, to push back the boundries of the world, to show new and dangerous lands that surround the world and spell the doom of Athas as we know it.
For me, I love the tragic twists in the setting. Rajaat wants to fix the world, but destroys it. The Champions want to keep Rajaat locked away, but destroy their kingdoms and the land in the process, leading to thousands of years of stagnation and a slow backwards creep in quality of life. Then, the Heroes (idiots) of Tyr kill the Dragon and a few other SK's, release Rajaat and then trap him again (sort of), only to throw the tablelands into turmoil, with the Kreen flowing in to the west, the Deadlands learning that they may not be trapped on the obsidian, and Dregoth returning to become a God. The things that would have prevented this were 7 SK's and a Dragon. Now we have 3 Sk's (2 more to the north, but they don't really count) and that's it. No one to stand against the onslaught.
What's next for Athas? good question.
Oh, and the Green Age was the color green, not a happy place. It was just as bad and war ravaged as any other time, but without the defiling to make it stand out. The Wanderer looks back with rose colored glasses.
The Extent of the Cleansing Wars: Consider how much of our planet was, for a short period of time, under the thumb of Alexander the Great. If the Champions really lived up to their titles, perhaps they managed to each achieve similar victories. They wouldn't cover all of Athas, but they might come close. At the same time as they're eradicating enemies they're also winning allies through force of personality and arms--getting human nations to do their dirty work for them. Even better, what if those hordes of Kreen pouring into the Tablelands actually aided the Champions in their extermination efforts? Perhaps there was a psionic manipulation of the Kreen clutch mind (Rajaat considered them little more than animals after all) followed by an effort to expunge the horrific events from the collective inborn memory.
Spirits of the Land: Awhile back I had the idea of a powerful figure (defiler, mad druid, powerful psion) ensnaring a Spirit of the Land and using it as a power source--ok, so I stole the idea from "Jade Empire". DMs are expected to be thieves of intellectual property. If I wanted to pull off the "pseudo-god-king funnels power from one source and grants that power to his/her servants" routine would this be a reasonable way to do it?
Spirits of the Land II: Could a Spirit of the Land assume control of a society in order to use it against whatever opposition it faces? In such a case would there be a population of urban druids forcing citizens to serve the Spirit's needs.
Mind Lords: My understanding of Athas is that, at least among human societies and possibly those of other races, psionic rulers are the most dramatically powerful. Loving the "pseudo-god-king" formula as I do, could a psion be cannonically/fannonically powerful enough to open the minds of selected subjects to the Gray/the Black/the Inner Plains in order to give them templar-esque spells?
The Kreen: Are the Kreen more akin to the Mongol Horde or a swarm of ants changing nest locations? Maybe both? How?
Or there could be something entirely different. What if there were some lifeshaped creatures that gained sentience and became powerful creatures in and of themselves vying for control of the world... left-over creatures from the Blue Age. There is quite an assortment of possibilities, even ones I haven't thought up to put in this comment.
While not exactly for other regions of Athas, my vision of the psurlons goes exactly that same way. I'm working on it at the moment.
:DMy theory is some races weren't worth assigining a champion to. Odds are Rajaat picked the 16 races that annoyed him the most. Damn sprites:P
LOL. I agree with you. The 16 races assigned a champion to make them extinct were probably the most troublesome or threatening to Rajaat's plans. But seriously, Athasian Sprites? Probably 10 foot killing machines.
LOL. I agree with you. The 16 races assigned a champion to make them extinct were probably the most troublesome or threatening to Rajaat's plans. But seriously, Athasian Sprites? Probably 10 foot killing machines.
Maybe Rajaat went into his garden and some sprite pot the rake where he would stand on it and it got him in the face. Darksun sprites were probably emo anyway.
To quote 'Knights of the Dinner Table'... sorry, can't resist:
"I'm docking Xp... and the 23 Pixies caught in the crossfire"
Back to the topic now.
Even better, what if those hordes of Kreen pouring into the Tablelands actually aided the Champions in their extermination efforts?
I like this idea!!
As to the nature-benders themselves, I tend torun with the idea that as they developed their soldiers, in turn they themselves decided to develop and adopt some fo the qualities they liked in their soldiers... as well as wanting to better masque themselves within the new Kreen society. They modified themselves into becoming the ancestors of what are now known as the Zik-Chil (priests of change). The only problem was they became too reliant on the genetic memory that the Kreen all have, and didn't realize that it isn't perfect. Over the generations, the Zik-Chil have completely forgotten who they originally were, and basically the nature-benders ended up erasing their own existence from Athas as a result. Now, millenia later, they are simply part of the Tohr-Kreen empire... albeit an enigmic and very dangerous part of it. The once "masters" of the Kreen have become the servants of the empire.
The Tohr-Kreen, I believe, are genetically predisposed to be an expansionistic and very ruthless Empire (as they were designed to be). They may not be able to scale the Jagged Cliffs easily, but there is a *lot* of land they could have easily spread out to conquer over the ages that have transpired. If the Tablelands, or rather, all of the land surrounding the Silt Sea could be looked at as a kind of "continent" surrounded by continental shelf-like cliffs (a super-plateau), there could effectively be Tohr-Kreen that completely surround it, on all sides.
Xlor, you rule.
I am seconding that.
Also, I have been thinking lately of this concept of a world where the "seat" of humanoid power/halfing assendancy was the Tablelands and that these are now just an enormous continental shelf. I am thinking that the surrounding lands, like the Kreen Empire, would be verdant areas where nature has returned. This would be the case, even if Boyrs's 100 year rampage reached the entire globe, as it would have had 1900 years to grow back. That is plenty of time for nature to reclaim the land, as defiling is naturally reversed after a century.
I also like the idea that the Silt Sea only exists on this giant mesa, and that there are other isolated seas around the globe, with societies around them.
I don't think that the obsidian of the deadlands would be too far reaching, mostly because it was sealed off and is no longer oozing onto the material plane.
I like this, and would love to see it developed more. How this would be done, and whether or not it should be "official" is another subject all together.
Of course, a lot of these ideas become refined over time, sometimes taking concepts and things straight from the forum here...
I don't think that the obsidian of the deadlands would be too far reaching, mostly because it was sealed off and is no longer oozing onto the material plane.
To my knowledge, the portal is still open that caused the catastrophe (been a while since I read/rummaged through the deadlands stuff I had). It is considered sealed, because it is all choked up with obsidian basically. My question is that obsidian is glass -- and, contrary to popular belief, glass is liquid, not solid. It just moves very, very slowly, due to the semi-crystallized state it exists in. Now, if there was constant pressure to add more obsidian being exerted from the portal (which is deep under the obsidian plains), this could cause an almost glacier-like kind of movement as more Obsidian is pushed out. It would, like any liquid, seek the path of least resistance for the extra mass to go to, and thus sort of "ooze" -- albeit, once again, at an extremely slow rate, possibly slower than would be observable without waiting thousands of years at this point, but it still could be happening.
Another thing to note is that for the obsidian plains to have happened as they did, the obsidian would have had to flood the plains relatively quickly. That means the obsidian had to have been heated... superheated. Once it would have gotten deep enough, the surface would have potentially cooled and hardened like it did, but under the surface, there could still be a flow of lava-hot obsidian moving under the feet of anyone on the obsidian plains. That obsidian would then push out, and it would potentially formn something akin to lava tubes under the surface of the obsidian plains, trapping heat and being used to keep the flow rather hot as it pushes outward whatever direction is the easiest for it to do so -- I'd think that there might be a path the flow can go to along the southern edge, which could be still expanding.
It's likely that when the "great cities" were founded, the were pretty small. The rebirth races were created in -14003 FY, but in -10362 FY there still had not been a lot of contact with the Thri Kreen*. Since the Crimson Savanna is next to the Tyr region, I take this to mean that by -10362 FY the rebirth races still hadn't expanded outside the Tyr region by much, if at all.
Rajaat's crusade against Preservers starts in -4250. I would not expect a lot of expansion once the crusade starts because all of the violence would consume too many of society's resources. That narrows the window for the rebirth races to expand down to around 6000 years. That's enough time for powerful psionicists to thoroughly explore Athas, but it's not much time for establishing cultures and societies all over the planet. Note that at least part of Athas was already full of the Thri-Kreen empire, so expansion in that direction was certainly limited.
My point in all this is that I find it believable for the Tyr region and surrounding area to contain the majority of civilization and power on Athas in the current era. OTOH, there's a lot of unmapped Athas out there. It would be a shame if it were nothing but Kreen, obsidian, and desert.
*It's possible that instead the Kreen suddenly became smart at this point instead, I suppose.
I definitely like the idea that Brax put forth in a previous thread, and the more I think about it, the more I think it makes perfect sense for Athas. It also could explain the limited travel across Athas. The primary means of transport that helped civilizations on Earth to spread across the globe was the oceans. We live on a world that is 2/3 covered in water. That means a surface that only has 1/3 of it actually land.
The Blue Age was noted for being a veritible water world. I don't even think that the land of the Tablelands was visible above the surface, except as a chain of islands that were the peaks of what are now called the Ringing Mountains. The Brown Tide radically altered the ecology of the planet, "eating" or destroying the vast oceans. So... water levels would have been dropping, at possibly an alarming rate. By the time the Pristine Tower started to be built (or rather, grown), the land under it could have been dry(ish). By the time the Pristine Tower was activated and the sun's power was used to destroy (kill) the Brown Tide, the oceans could have been almost completely destroyed. What if, rather than like the Earth which is basically continents (super-islands) surrounded by vast bodies of water, Athas at the end of the Blue Age was vast tracts of land locking large lakes or seas within?
Now, how could the Brown Tide have destroyed the oceans? Well, if it used the water as fuel.... let's say it broke the bonds holding the water molecules together apart. You'd have a lot of hydrogen and oxygen. The heat from this could have even killed off plankton or other life in the oceans... combine the oxygen with carbon... and it isn't too far a stretch to say that the Brown Tide could have been pumping H2, O2, and more importantly, C02 into the atmosphere. I say the CO2 is more important, because of the transition from ocean to massive plantlife -- presumably the hallmark of the Green Age. The increased CO2 in the atmosphere could have caused heat to be trapped in the atmosphere, warming the planet, but also making for the perfect kind of environment for plant life to flourish. A lot of the water could have ended up in the atmosphere, and there could have been storms that kept things green, formed by the constantly higher temperatures thanks to the CO2. The plants expand, and begin to process the CO2, and a whole new ecology takes over Athas. within a matter of as little as 20 or 30 years, there could have been rampant plant growth across the whole surface of the world. The "dead" Brown Tide residue could have easily been perfect fertilizer on the surface as well.
Now, if there were multiple Pristine Towers that were spread out across Athas, which kind of makes some logical sense with the notion that they were used to eradicate the Brown Tide on a global scale, and because the Rhulisti were strongly implied as being the absolute rulers of Athas on a more global scale, and also due to things like the curvature of the planet, each could have caused Rhulisti to be transformed in the Rebirth. Which would suggest that there could be other civilizations across the globe, completely independent of the Tablelands that are comprised of Rebirth races. Of course, there are good odds that not every Pristine Tower ended up situated near a body of water that could be used to sustain those civilizations... so there may have been a number of them forced to attempt to seek out new water elsewhere, or just plain died out entirely.
I'd say there is just as likely to have been other "super cities" built around the world by those Rhulisti who did not change in the Rebirth. And like those in the Tablelands, who knows what fates could have befallen them. Maybe there are factions of Rhulisti, or decendants of Rhulisti (like the Rhul-thaun) that use the bioengineered/lifeshaped tech of the Rhulisti without really comprehending how it works. Each of these collections of civilizations could have very different histories. They also may have never even met each other, they may have absolutely no knowledge of each other.
Bring in the Tohr-Kreen Empire. Expansionistic to the extreme, treats any non-Kreen as cattle, and pushes its boundaries constantly. Kreen have a pretty darned high birthrate as well, and over several millenia of conquest, they could have taken over a considerable part of the globe.... They are the most well-suited to do so of the races we know -- the most adaptable to Athas' environments, and most importantly -- the race that can survive the longest with the least amount of water, making the range of their expansion potentially limitless... except for terrain features like the Jagged Cliffs, which for lack of better argument could very well be a Continental Shelf.
Any civilization caught in the path of the Kreen's expansion would get potentially overrun. So, the number of civilizations that survive near Pristine Towers can be cut down yet again simply by the Kreen... They could very well have wiped out a number of those unfortunate enough to not be protected by natural barriers like the Jagged Cliffs from the relentless hordes of Kreen. But who knows... maybe a couple of the "super cities" have survived the Kreen Onslaught relying on their superior walls and Rhulisti defenses to keep the Kreen outside them.... but everyone inside them are effectively trapped (and constantly at siege).
Through all of this, and anything else I haven't thought of, I'd say the odds would be good of there being at least one, if not potentially two other batches of Rebirth civilizations which have survived in some form or another across Athas. These could very well be collections of exactly the same races that the Rebirth caused to appear in the Tablelands. They probably would have absolutely no connection or link, or even awareness of Rajaat. As such, I'd almost be positive in thinking that they'd not have Arcane Magic.... but they'd probably have Psionics and Divine Magic. Maybe even a smattering of lifeshaped technology left over from the Rhulisti. The races could have developed along very different lines. After all, we're talking thousands upon thousands of years of history where they were completely separated, and developed completely unique societies and cultures.
There could be who-knows-what going on outside of the Tablelands. Even without the concept fo the Sorcerer-Kings, Rajaat, etc in those areas... there could be any number of different "big bads" around that could have caused all kinds of havoc.
Also 14000 is plenty of time to spread around a globe. It is estimated it only took 1000 od years to get form the Bering Straight to the tip of South America when humans 1st got to America.
There used to be non kreen civilizations beyond the Jagged Cliffs. Thats were one of the Mindlords is from (the elf one) IIRC. So circa 8000 odd years ago there must have been colonization of those lands.
Also 14000 is plenty of time to spread around a globe. It is estimated it only took 1000 od years to get form the Bering Straight to the tip of South America when humans 1st got to America.
Bearing in mind there is sources of water to be found along the way. If there isn't enough (drinking) water, then there is a problem. A lot of the navigation people did to explore the Earth involved following water sources -- rivers, lakes, streams, oceans. If the world didn't have as much of this, I'd think that there would have been a significant reduction in how much exploring people would have done.
There used to be non kreen civilizations beyond the Jagged Cliffs. Thats were one of the Mindlords is from (the elf one) IIRC. So circa 8000 odd years ago there must have been colonization of those lands.
Also 14000 is plenty of time to spread around a globe. It is estimated it only took 1000 od years to get form the Bering Straight to the tip of South America when humans 1st got to America.
You know, you're right. 6000 years (which is how long I think there really was for rebirth races to random-walk all over Athas) is a long time for the rebirth races to expand. But expansion only leads to large-scale civilizations if there are enough resouces for it, though. Going along with what xlorep mentioned about the Green Age being pretty dry, it's very possible that large portions of Athas just aren't well-suited for settlements.
Looking beyond the tablelands today, there's a lot of ash, lava, and dry savanna (IIRC). None of that is good for human(ish) habitation. With the Sunrise Sea and the Ringing Mountains, the Tyr region may have once been one of the better areas of Athas to live at the start of the Green Age.
Speaking of xlorep's ideas re: what happened at the start of the Green Age, I think they're really cool. With all the talk of "life-shaping" driving most of the timeline, I feel like there should be a pseudo-scientific explanation for a number of its events, and xlorep provides one.
The best explanation I could come up with for myself regarding the brown tide was that the brown tide was an unexpected result of legitimate work to increase the life energy of the oceans. The work was successful - the brown tide really did have more life energy than the oceans. The problem was that it was completely incompatible with current life on Athas.
The brown tide wasn't unleased all over Athas at once, but instead spread outward from one point. Maybe it escaped from a lab, or maybe it was supposed to be a small controlled experiment. Regardless, once part of the oceans turned into the brown tide, that nucleus converted all the water touching it into brown tide like a nucleating crystal dropped into a supercooled liquid.
While the rhulisti did want to destroy the brown tide, they didn't want to destroy all the life energy stored in it (or perhaps they couldn't). The Pristine Tower (or TowerS, if you want to go that route) used the energy of the sun to destroy the brown tide but to move its life energy into the earth - fertilizer for the green age, if you will. The rhulisti had never really thought of the land as a source of life, living as they did on the oceans, so they wanted to prepare the ground for new life.
Or maybe instead of pushing life energy back into the earth, the Pristine Tower destroyed the life energy in the brown tide. This destruction left little life energy available to, well, support life, so only the tablelands, which either were islands during the blue age or were supporting them, had enough remaining life energy to support large-scale humanoid civilizations.
Either way, I see the actions of the Rhulisti as templates for Rajaat to follow when he created magic. Magic is just a way of expending the life energy stored in plants and the ground (and creatures, for powerful enough magic). He either got his inspiration from the life energy of the brown tide that was pushed back into the ground, or he realized that you could actually consume life energy.
Something to consider when thinking about civilizations traveling across Athas -- the Kreen. As I mentioned above, I see them as a brutally expansionistic race. And, if they exist and spread out across all of the land they could reach (barring the cliffs of the "super-mesas" which they seem ill equipped to scale) -- they could have swept across and extinguished any potential explorers. Even civilizations that may have moved down to below the Jagged Cliffs would eventually have been overrun by the Kreen and destroyed -- their people potentially serving merely as a food source for the carnivorous insects.
I'd also think that the mentality the undead of the deadlands have -- one where they believe the whole world is covered in obsidian and more importantly, that they haven't explored the outer reaches of the obsidian plains to discover they were incorrect might also be some insight into a sort of pervasive mentality that exists on Athas. Exploring may not be something inherently taught or part of the average Athasian thought processes. Sure, there will be some, but I'd say there probably is a severely reduced number of people who would have had the drive to explore the world. And of those who did, they ran into some pretty nasty "super-predators" (coining another phrase from a previous thread) -- that is, sentient life-forms that hunted other sentient lifeforms, like the Kreen. Exploration could simply have been an unsavory concept to a lot of people, ingrained over millenia of dealing with these "super-predators".
Many points, particularly from the first one I lined, which Brax had made, revolutionized a bit of what I envisioned the rest of athas to be... and has been used as a new picture of the world for me. Particularly concepts presented here:
Assuming that there were actual oceans during the Green Age. The dissapearance of the word "Ocean" from the calendar at the end of the Blue Age, the fact that the sea of silt was called the "Sunrise Sea" (rather than ocean) during the Green Age and Time of Magic, and the fact that the WJ says explicitly that the Tablelands and Ringing Mountains surround the sea of silt, together suggest that the Green Age had large inland seas but no ocean/contintents.
...the Green Age was a time, not a society. There were many societies during the Green Age and the technology HAD to have varied from society to society, since we know that the Rhul Thaun continued their isolation, and that some cities like Bodach were multiracial while Kurn was an Elven city and Hogalay a dwarven city; Giustenal had something like subways -- rapid underground transport -- while to our knowledge nothing like that existed in Saragar.
See Mind Lords of the Lost Sea, City by the Silt Sea, Windriders of the Jagged Cliffs, and the novel "Darkness before the Dawn," to get glimpses of different advanced Green Age societies, which, as you'll see, were advanced in different ways.
And:
My feel is this:
The lattitude principle in Jared Diamond's "Guns Germs and Steel" is even more applicable when the living unadaptable creatures include not just grain and beasts of burden, but life-shaped objects which serve as housing, transport, and provide other advantages that we'd consider "high tech." And if you've contemplated Diamond, you can gather that it's very unlikely that the most useful life-shaped creatures (e.g. houses, transports, & food producers) would thrive in both the temperate regions and the tropics.
Thus, while halflings considered themselves masters of the world, the habitable "world" by sophisticated rhulisti standards did not extend beyond the subtropics, because the tropics and subtropics offered the climate in which rhulisti life-shaped houses, transports, & other devices were designed to work.
Go far enough north, and you're into the area dominated by the zic-chil. Go far enough south, and that's the area dominated by those whip scorpion critters described in SotDL. And the rhulisti interacted with those creatures about as often as the Malinese empire interacted with Polar Bears and Penguins.
Why the equatorial zone rather than the temperate zone? Three principal reasons:
First, the halflings (who unlike Alexander the Great whose "world" was in the northern Hemisphere) had vessels capable of sailing huge distances in the sea and sky. Therefore they probably would not have considered themselves masters of an undivided "world age" if there were two halfling-habitable regions, divided from each other by an equitorial region. Temperate domination would have created two separate halfling empires, able to make occasional contact with each other but not sustained domination of each other.
Second, the halflings that we've seen so far do live and thrive in a hot area, and we know that the Thamasku devices do function in the current heat. The climate changes to the rest of the area would be muted in Thamasku because of probable winds as the heated hinterlands pull in wind from the west, from the relatively moist & somewhat cooler Crimson Savannah. So Thamasku, as depicted in WRotJC, continues to live on most of the technology that it had during the Green Age, although it has clearly lost some of its tech, possibly due to climate warming as well as to loss of knowledge.
Third, because the Pristine Tower was built to utilize energy from the sun, and therefore was probably built somewhere near what was then the planet's equator. (Planets do sometimes shift axes IIRC, and with all the calamities that Athas has been through, what was the equator during the Blue Age need not be the equator today.)
...if the Green Age (as I now suspect) was a landlocked world of long prairies and forests punctuated by mediteranean-sized inland seas, then the faraway places would have soon been dominated by fast-moving hunters such as the Kreen and the Wemic. Rebirth Race civilization would have spread more slowly, in a more or less oval shape, long on the east to west axis and short on the north-south axis. I doubt that Rebirth civilization could have spread across a landlocked globe, even by the end of the cleansing wars.
Off-hand, does anyone recall any official Green Age reference to the word "OCEAN"? Because the only mentions that I've seen suggest that there weren't oceans during the Green Age, just "seas." The word Ocean disappears from the calendar after the Rebirth. The timeline said that the oceans dried up to land. The sea of silt was then called "the sunrise sea." And the WJ says that the sea of silt is *surrounded* by the tablelands, meaning that the "other continent" that some folks talk about, the land appearing on the map beyond Ur-Draxa, is probably something that you can reach by moving on land by heading North, East, and then South again.
There was alot of back and forth inthe thread, but there was a lot which made me reevaluate my position on a lot of things for Athas' history and environment. While some things helped explain otherwise major complications in my previous theories. Namely, the idea that Athas could have been a landlocked world rather than surrounded by oceans. It is a rather radical approach to it all, but many things about Athas' timeline seem to work well with that concept.
I like this land locked athas. I think it fits very well, makes sense, and still offers us a view of athas that makes it radicially different.
Further, the "super-predators" and the concept of migration as over land and not water (and thus much more slowly) fits with the concept that I have always had: Athas has always been a world of harsh struggle. How that struggle manifests itself may change, but it was never "better in the past."
On the topic of the drying of the Sunrise Sea... that had been one of those things that troubled me a lot... I mean, where'd the water go, right? And even more interestingly, where the heck did the silt come from? We do know there was a cataclysmic event that occurred during the Cleansing War -- the Obsidian portal opening and the Deadlands/obsidian plains being formed. The Sunrise Sea dried up during the Cleansing Wars as well. I think these two things could be somewhat related. The formation of the Deadlands could have superheated a lot of the geology of the southern part of the super-continent. It plausibly could have caused some significant weakening of the area -- cracking of bedrock or other such things, possibly forming a rift of sorts. Enough to make the weight and pressure of the water from the Sunrise Sea (which could have been above the rift at the time) to break through, and slowly begin to "leak out". Where? -- completely outside the continent, into the grasslands/etc below. Most likely causing significant flooding over a large region. The water level of the Sunrise Sea could have then started to drop.
Particulates in the Sea could have been left behind. Specifically, the "inert" particulates of what was once the Brown Tide could have been left behind (as well as defiler's ash from what could have been sea plant-life extinguished during the Cleansing Wars). As the water of the Sunrise Sea lowered, the Silt Sea began to take shape. Over time, there was basically a giant sludge-filled muddy basin. Fish and other sea life choked and died in the mud. As the mud dried out, it began to get scoured by wind, and eventually became the basis for the silt that now fills the basin. Some water could have ended up remaining (the mud flats in the Silt Sea).
It might not have been the formation of the Obsidian Plains.... there could have been an underground-dwelling race (like, let's say goblins or gnomes) that burrowed too far, and found the edge of the cliffs of the super-mesa, and could have tunneled too close to the Sunrise Sea... same result. Maybe it was a combination of the two. But, in the end, the water all left the sea, silt ended up being what was left. The waters of the sea then could have formed a whole new sea/river down in the Kreen-controlled lands below the continental super-mesa... Basically imagine a giant reservoir being let free... catastrophic flood damage for that area, to be sure.
The water and other life in the Sunrise Sea might have even made the drying sea the best place for defilers to work long-term or long-range spells that could be cast anywhere. More defiling = more ash to turn into silt.
On a more general level, I had always assumed that the consumption of water by defiling was what made Dark Sun into a desert. If it didn't, I don't see how defiling could be directly related to how miserable Athas was. It takes 100 years or so for land to recover from defiling. I'm sure it's been 10 times that long since anyone defiled in over 99% of the tablelands.
I also hadn't seen the "Guns, Germs, and Steel" thread before. I just read the book recently and I also found it useful in thinking about Athas in a logical way.
Here is my take on the planetary changes on Athas. It is much more mystical. IT folows with the idea of defiling destroying water. Much of my view is colored by a blend of Planescape material along with the Dark Sun material. I am referencing the Dragonkings supplement on page 66 in which it shows the Quasi and Paraelemental planes in relation to the Elemental Planes.
Athas for whatever cosmological reason is more elemental in nature than most game worlds. The Elemental Lords fight and politic to gain footholds in the world. High level clerics and Druids are tasked to aid their lords in either defending their realms or expanding them.
My Thought is there is a constant fight going on between all 18 of the Elemental Planes. Some form alliances or pacts with each other while others have nothing but animosity for each other. It has been eluded to in several of the source books that there is an interplay between actions on the elemental plan and Athas.
The hard part for my group has been how to best visualize this struggle. How does a one plane fight another plane? How does it effect the prime material? My group have come up with one view. That of an elemental transitive plane. It basically acts as the connection for the planes to an area in the prime. In this plane The elemental nature of the world is more obvious. Lets look at a simple slave village. It has a small ruin, several adobe brick huts with thatched roofs, it has a small well and is next to a dry stream bed. In the Transitive plane, Earth has spirits everywhere. An especially strong spirit is at the ruins is strengthened by the fine stone walls of the building. A strong water elemental is at the site of the well. The river bed is the site of a past battle between earth and water. During the hottest part of the Summer Sun Elementals are omnipresent in the sky. Various elemental associated with air fly by in the air. When a tyr storm is present so are angry rain elementals. Fire elementals are found in fire sites and the hearth. They hungrily look at the thatched roofs and wait.
In this transitive area the elements can fight and change the actual topography of Athas. Lets look at various locations and see how that would play out.
The Mudflats in the Silt Sea wold be an active battle ground between water and silt. If Silt had a major victory the silt would overtake a section of the mudflat. Water may be getting assistance from Earth in holding the mudflat from the Silt Lords.
Earth and Air have a stronghold in a beautiful wind carved sandstone canyon. The air is extremely dry and very little can grow there. Representatives from Water may approach the earth and Air delegates and through trade or promises negotiate a spring to sprout in the base of the canyon. Conversely, if negotiations fail and tempers fail a well may go dry at the village several miles away.
This is the explanation for many of the physical changes that have occurred on Athas. The Sea turning to silt would be the result of a massive campaign by silt and its allies against water.
Conversely, actions on the prime also strengthen or weaken various elements. An irrigation project would strengthen water and earth. Cutting down an excessive amount of trees in the forest could destabilize it weakening water, earth, and fire (it was looking forward to the forest fire).
Defiling is harmful to all the primary elements but it aids some of the paraelements (dust, silt, salt, and possibly magma). It destroys water, mineral, and creates a lifeless dust.
Several of the elements are almost nonexistent on Athas such as Vacuum, Ice, Smoke, Ooze (Mud) and Mineral. Some are very weak such as Fire, Salt, Steam, Magma, Dust, Water, and Rain (Lightning). Other are vigorous Earth, Air, Silt, Positive, Negative (absolute rule of the Deadlands) and Sun (Radiance).
Sun is a special plane in that it is radiance in other material. The subplot that has been pursued with my group is Rajeet being heavily allied with Rain and Water made a surprise alliance with a faction in Sun. The Elemental Lords that hold most (not all) of the sway now are those of a more tyrannical nature versus the more benevolent faction that used to run the plane. This is represented in the Sun transforming from yellow to red.
I would really appreciate any help in flushing out this idea and to make it more playable.
The Unseen War – Elemental Conflict on Athas
Here is my take on the planetary changes on Athas. It is much more mystical. IT folows with the idea of defiling destroying water. Much of my view is colored by a blend of Planescape material along with the Dark Sun material. I am referencing the Dragonkings supplement on page 66 in which it shows the Quasi and Paraelemental planes in relation to the Elemental Planes.
Athas for whatever cosmological reason is more elemental in nature than most game worlds. The Elemental Lords fight and politic to gain footholds in the world. High level clerics and Druids are tasked to aid their lords in either defending their realms or expanding them.
My Thought is there is a constant fight going on between all 18 of the Elemental Planes. Some form alliances or pacts with each other while others have nothing but animosity for each other. It has been eluded to in several of the source books that there is an interplay between actions on the elemental plan and Athas.
The hard part for my group has been how to best visualize this struggle. How does a one plane fight another plane? How does it effect the prime material? My group have come up with one view. That of an elemental transitive plane. It basically acts as the connection for the planes to an area in the prime. In this plane The elemental nature of the world is more obvious. Lets look at a simple slave village. It has a small ruin, several adobe brick huts with thatched roofs, it has a small well and is next to a dry stream bed. In the Transitive plane, Earth has spirits everywhere. An especially strong spirit is at the ruins is strengthened by the fine stone walls of the building. A strong water elemental is at the site of the well. The river bed is the site of a past battle between earth and water. During the hottest part of the Summer Sun Elementals are omnipresent in the sky. Various elemental associated with air fly by in the air. When a tyr storm is present so are angry rain elementals. Fire elementals are found in fire sites and the hearth. They hungrily look at the thatched roofs and wait.
In this transitive area the elements can fight and change the actual topography of Athas. Lets look at various locations and see how that would play out.
The Mudflats in the Silt Sea wold be an active battle ground between water and silt. If Silt had a major victory the silt would overtake a section of the mudflat. Water may be getting assistance from Earth in holding the mudflat from the Silt Lords.
Earth and Air have a stronghold in a beautiful wind carved sandstone canyon. The air is extremely dry and very little can grow there. Representatives from Water may approach the earth and Air delegates and through trade or promises negotiate a spring to sprout in the base of the canyon. Conversely, if negotiations fail and tempers fail a well may go dry at the village several miles away.
This is the explanation for many of the physical changes that have occurred on Athas. The Sea turning to silt would be the result of a massive campaign by silt and its allies against water.
Conversely, actions on the prime also strengthen or weaken various elements. An irrigation project would strengthen water and earth. Cutting down an excessive amount of trees in the forest could destabilize it weakening water, earth, and fire (it was looking forward to the forest fire).
Defiling is harmful to all the primary elements but it aids some of the paraelements (dust, silt, salt, and possibly magma). It destroys water, mineral, and creates a lifeless dust.
Several of the elements are almost nonexistent on Athas such as Vacuum, Ice, Smoke, Ooze (Mud) and Mineral. Some are very weak such as Fire, Salt, Steam, Magma, Dust, Water, and Rain (Lightning). Other are vigorous Earth, Air, Silt, Positive, Negative (absolute rule of the Deadlands) and Sun (Radiance).
Sun is a special plane in that it is radiance in other material. The subplot that has been pursued with my group is Rajeet being heavily allied with Rain and Water made a surprise alliance with a faction in Sun. The Elemental Lords that hold most (not all) of the sway now are those of a more tyrannical nature versus the more benevolent faction that used to run the plane. This is represented in the Sun transforming from yellow to red.
I would really appreciate any help in flushing out this idea and to make it more playable.
The quasi elemental planes never existed in DS 2nd ed and have been retconned out in normal 3.5 cosmology. The paraelemental planes are there equivilent.
They are present in the dragonkings write up on page 66 and on page 55 it talks about clerics at high levels gaining access to both quasi and paraelemental planes.
Good point. I got mixed up with planes that grant Cerics spells. No more quasi planes in 3.5 though.
I had always assumed that defiling took water out of soil. During the Cleansing War, all the defiling that went on completely dried out the soil, which would absorb rainwater that would normally make it to the Sunrise Sea. Eventually the sea dried up. And I assumed that silt was defiling ash just broken down into tiny bits.
The water and other life in the Sunrise Sea might have even made the drying sea the best place for defilers to work long-term or long-range spells that could be cast anywhere. More defiling = more ash to turn into silt.
On a more general level, I had always assumed that the consumption of water by defiling was what made Dark Sun into a desert. If it didn't, I don't see how defiling could be directly related to how miserable Athas was. It takes 100 years or so for land to recover from defiling. I'm sure it's been 10 times that long since anyone defiled in over 99% of the tablelands.
I also hadn't seen the "Guns, Germs, and Steel" thread before. I just read the book recently and I also found it useful in thinking about Athas in a logical way.
I don't think there is anything in the materials supporting the concept that defiling consumes water. It consumes life, destroying organic material, and stripping the land of everything that could sustain life. It doesn't consume water -- or rather, there has never been anything to suggest that it did. It basically sterilizes an area making it so completely infertile that it takes decades of work to get the land back to being able to grow anything. If water was all that was missing, things would have been a thousand times easier.
There is, honestly no concrete evidence that defiling was the main cause of the desert conditions. It could have been the proverbial "straw that broke the camel's back", so to speak. There was several hundred years which were collectively called the Cleansing Wars. The number one thing that would have significantly upset the balance of nature was massive magical warfare going on for hundreds of years. Warfare where defiling was part and parcel of those who waged it.
The silt sea happened during that time too -- but there is no explanation even implied in the 2nd Ed materials as to exactly how the Silt Sea happened. It could easily have been a "casualty of war" -- something that happened during the Cleansing Wars resulted in the Sunrise Sea becoming the Silt Sea. Blaming it on defiling doesn't really add up. Defiling could have killed off the plantlife. Dragon-defiling could have killed off the animal life in it, but the water still would have remained -- it would not have been life-sustaining, but it would have existed.
The silt sea happened during that time too -- but there is no explanation even implied in the 2nd Ed materials as to exactly how the Silt Sea happened. It could easily have been a "casualty of war" -- something that happened during the Cleansing Wars resulted in the Sunrise Sea becoming the Silt Sea. Blaming it on defiling doesn't really add up. Defiling could have killed off the plantlife. Dragon-defiling could have killed off the animal life in it, but the water still would have remained -- it would not have been life-sustaining, but it would have existed.
on page 11 of The Wanders Chronicle it states that
"The sun, once a blazing sphere of brilliant blue, shifted to a radiant yellow ball. It's rays bombarded the planet, causing the brown tide to dissipate. But as the tide disappeared, so did a portion of the endless sea. Dry land-not swamp or even marsh- emerged from beneath the waves to replace the receding water."
it sounds as if, to me atleast, that the water was evaporated from the increased heat levels of the planet. either through the heating up of the suns rays or the that maybe the planet was pulled in closer to the sun..or a combination of both. but it looks as though over all global warming was the ultimate reason for the lack of water. but that’s just what i got out of reading the text. maybe you guys here interpolated it differently.
I don't think there is anything in the materials supporting the concept that defiling consumes water. It consumes life, destroying organic material, and stripping the land of everything that could sustain life. It doesn't consume water -- or rather, there has never been anything to suggest that it did. It basically sterilizes an area making it so completely infertile that it takes decades of work to get the land back to being able to grow anything. If water was all that was missing, things would have been a thousand times easier.
I don't think lack of water is the only thing that makes defiled land infertile. I had always imagined that defiled land, underneath the dry ash, was dry and sandy. In the short term, the cleansing wars turned the tablelands into a desert by killing all the plants and removing everything required for life from the soil. In the long run, though, it was the removal of water that kept it a desert.
As defiling is magical, I had assumed that defiled land was difficult to describe in a mundane sense. IRL, land devoid of nutrients can be fixed with fertilizer and irrigation. Yet that doesn't work for defiled land - nothing will grow there for 100 years. I had always thought that defiled could be well explained with the regular great wheel elemental cosmology, with defiling removing all the positive-plane-touching quasi-elements from soil. That doesn't fit well with the Athas cosmology, unfortunately. Regardless, defiling pulls something out of the soil that can't be explained in mundane terms.
it sounds as if, to me atleast, that the water was evaporated from the increased heat levels of the planet. either through the heating up of the suns rays or the that maybe the planet was pulled in closer to the sun..or a combination of both. but it looks as though over all global warming was the ultimate reason for the lack of water. but that’s just what i got out of reading the text. maybe you guys here interpolated it differently.
Athasian global warming wouldn't have destroyed the water, though. It had to go somewhere. I think the water was somehow consumed by the brown tide. When the tide was destroyed, no more water. It makes sense as long as we accept the existance of life-shaping that can create effectively magical creatures. I also like it because I can make it Rajaat's hint for developing defileing such that defiling destroys water. I'm not trying to argue that my position of defiling destroying water is better supported by the rules, just that it makes this fit together well should I ever decide and have time to run a game where it comes up.
Re: king_cromag's question about how do elemental planes fight each other on Athas, one way is to get the beings on Athas to actively destroy your enemy element. Assuming the elemental planes take a very long term view, one of the planes could have tricked the Rhulisti into creating the brown tide, which one way or another destroyed a lot of water. While earth and water are not diametrically opposed, I would think earth was behind it because it's really the plane that came out ahead. Perhaps during the green age the negative-plane-touching earth plane gained some ground, resulting in all silt on Athas.
Finally, this thread has gotten me thinking about what happens when Sadira defiles in the Pristine Tower. Specifically, the water in the pool turns brown, like the brown tide. I've speculated that this water was from the original oceans of Athas, saved by the Rhulisti and protected from the brown tide. If defiling creates brown tide in that ocean, than whatever else created the brown tide at the end of the blue age must have acted similarly - it must have taken life energy out of the water. I'm not sure where to go from there, or even if it's a correct starting point, but I like it so far.
Maybe the experiment to increase the life energy of the oceans was successful, but it changed them such that when they tried to take that life energy out it created the brown tide. Suddenly life-shaping was creating pollution. The Rhulisti couldn't live without lifeshaping, so they decided to start over. Hmmm ... that's a bit of a stretch.
The silt sea happened during that time too -- but there is no explanation even implied in the 2nd Ed materials as to exactly how the Silt Sea happened. It could easily have been a "casualty of war" -- something that happened during the Cleansing Wars resulted in the Sunrise Sea becoming the Silt Sea. Blaming it on defiling doesn't really add up. Defiling could have killed off the plantlife. Dragon-defiling could have killed off the animal life in it, but the water still would have remained -- it would not have been life-sustaining, but it would have existed.
What if Keltis changed the Sunrise Sea into the Silt Sea by means of an epic spell? It would have killed of the (mostly) aquatic Lizardmen, thereby making his task all the more easy. We don't have a lot of evidence of how the fighting happened, but Epic spells can destroy continents and change world orbits, so... It is an interesting possibility.
on page 11 of The Wanders Chronicle it states that it sounds as if, to me atleast, that the water was evaporated from the increased heat levels of the planet. either through the heating up of the suns rays or the that maybe the planet was pulled in closer to the sun..or a combination of both. but it looks as though over all global warming was the ultimate reason for the lack of water. but that’s just what i got out of reading the text. maybe you guys here interpolated it differently.
The Endless Sea dried up significantly from the end ot he Blue Age to the start of the Green Age, thanks in part to the brown Tide and the use of the Pristine Tower(s). But it does not account for the Sunrise Sea from the Green Age drying up and becoming the Sea of Silt. The Endless sea was basically the planet-wide ocean that existed in the Blue Age which the Brown Tide destroyed.
Athasian global warming wouldn't have destroyed the water, though. It had to go somewhere. I think the water was somehow consumed by the brown tide. When the tide was destroyed, no more water. It makes sense as long as we accept the existance of life-shaping that can create effectively magical creatures. I also like it because I can make it Rajaat's hint for developing defileing such that defiling destroys water. I'm not trying to argue that my position of defiling destroying water is better supported by the rules, just that it makes this fit together well should I ever decide and have time to run a game where it comes up.
See, I don't subscribe to the idea that lifeshaping is magical. I believe it to be an advanced form of bioengineering/biotechnology. Advanced enough, it can be potentially seen as if it was magical to people who witness it and are unfamiliar with what it really is (like the people of Athas), but I don't think it is even remotely inherently magical (from a game-mechanics/metagame standpoint).
...this thread has gotten me thinking about what happens when Sadira defiles in the Pristine Tower. Specifically, the water in the pool turns brown, like the brown tide. I've speculated that this water was from the original oceans of Athas, saved by the Rhulisti and protected from the brown tide. If defiling creates brown tide in that ocean, than whatever else created the brown tide at the end of the blue age must have acted similarly - it must have taken life energy out of the water. I'm not sure where to go from there, or even if it's a correct starting point, but I like it so far.
I'd agree that just like with land, defiling the plat/animal life in water would also corrupt/contaminate that water source, making it no longer healthy or able to sustain life. Maybe there is a tie to the Brown Tide with that, I'll agree. But I can't see it destroying the water itself. One of the things that makes me also think about Defiling polluting water as such, is Yaramuke. Hamanu killed Sielba, and destroyed Yaramuke. The water in Yaramuke's ruins is now horrifically polluted and extremely toxic. That could easily have been a side-effect of Hamanu's destruction of that city and killing Sielba.
Maybe the experiment to increase the life energy of the oceans was successful, but it changed them such that when they tried to take that life energy out it created the brown tide. Suddenly life-shaping was creating pollution. The Rhulisti couldn't live without lifeshaping, so they decided to start over. Hmmm ... that's a bit of a stretch.
I do like the idea of Defiling polluting water, as it seems to "pollute" and render land infertile. It isn't much of a stretch there. I wouldn't necessarily say that lifeshaping itself was polluting the water, but it could have been what eventually led to the water's being polluted. I also like the idea that it was *this particular kind of lifeshaping* that Rajaat was inspired by to develop Arcane Magic.
What if Keltis changed the Sunrise Sea into the Silt Sea by means of an epic spell? It would have killed of the (mostly) aquatic Lizardmen, thereby making his task all the more easy. We don't have a lot of evidence of how the fighting happened, but Epic spells can destroy continents and change world orbits, so... It is an interesting possibility.
I had considered that Keltis could have been one of the primary causes of the Sea of Silt being as it is. Just more guilt for Oronis to live with...
Of course, when hunting the lizardmen, Keltis could have defiled a large amount of the Sunrise Sea, making it increasingly toxic (brownish). If he then figured out how to drain the water from the Sunrise Sea in his mad lust for eradicating the lizardmen. We know from the Mind Lords of the Last Sea that Keltis was very, very determined to destroy the lizardmen, to the point of casting extremely over-the-top epic spells and trying to blow straight through the Mind Lords' defenses to seek the lizardmen in the Last Sea, he could have very easily developed an epic spell to destroy the water in the Sunrise Sea. Removing the water, or most of it, the brownish filth from his defiling of the plants and animals in the Sunrise Sea could have collected, resulting in a choking/suffocating death for the lizardmen trapped in it (and anything else that happened to be in there at the time as well). Hell, he could have defiled a massive swathe of life in the Sunrise Sea to affect such a change.
Honestly, I think there is something to the notion that Keltis could be responsible for the Silt Sea. Especially as he was the Champion set against an aquatic race.
The Endless Sea dried up significantly from the end ot he Blue Age to the start of the Green Age, thanks in part to the brown Tide and the use of the Pristine Tower(s). But it does not account for the Sunrise Sea from the Green Age drying up and becoming the Sea of Silt. The Endless sea was basically the planet-wide ocean that existed in the Blue Age which the Brown Tide destroyed.
I had considered that Keltis could have been one of the primary causes of the Sea of Silt being as it is. Just more guilt for Oronis to live with...
Of course, when hunting the lizardmen, Keltis could have defiled a large amount of the Sunrise Sea, making it increasingly toxic (brownish). If he then figured out how to drain the water from the Sunrise Sea in his mad lust for eradicating the lizardmen. We know from the Mind Lords of the Last Sea that Keltis was very, very determined to destroy the lizardmen, to the point of casting extremely over-the-top epic spells and trying to blow straight through the Mind Lords' defenses to seek the lizardmen in the Last Sea, he could have very easily developed an epic spell to destroy the water in the Sunrise Sea. Removing the water, or most of it, the brownish filth from his defiling of the plants and animals in the Sunrise Sea could have collected, resulting in a choking/suffocating death for the lizardmen trapped in it (and anything else that happened to be in there at the time as well). Hell, he could have defiled a massive swathe of life in the Sunrise Sea to affect such a change.
Honestly, I think there is something to the notion that Keltis could be responsible for the Silt Sea. Especially as he was the Champion set against an aquatic race.
i wasn't trying to say that the sun dried up the the Endless Sea right then and there, but I do believe it was a start to the drying up of the waters (possibly word wide even) as the tempatures increased over the years due to the sun's new stage. over the course fo centuries i am sure that the global warming took it's toll on the water's world wide. however i do like the idea of Oronis casuing the rest of the water to be removed in an attempt to wipe out his assigned race.
i wasn't trying to say that the sun dried up the the Endless Sea right then and there, but I do believe it was a start to the drying up of the waters (possibly word wide even) as the tempatures increased over the years due to the sun's new stage. over the course fo centuries i am sure that the global warming took it's toll on the water's world wide. however i do like the idea of Oronis casuing the rest of the water to be removed in an attempt to wipe out his assigned race.
The Sunrise Sea (which became the Sea of Silt) is not the Endless Sea. The Endless Sea would be referring to the world-wide ocean (endless ocean) that covered the planet in the Blue Age. The transition from the Blue to the Green Age is noted with the loss of these oceans (the Brown Tide and the Pristine Tower's effects), making the water go away and dry land to exist as more than just a smattering of small islands.
I believe your confusion is you are equating the Endless Sea with the Sea of Silt, which is not true. The Sunrise Sea, which existed in the Green Age, was what became the Sea of Silt. That took place long after the Blue Age ended. I don't mean merely hundreds of years, but thousands of years later.
Further, the idea that water evaporating caused the water to disappear is a bit silly. If the water evaporates, it goes in the air. Enough water in the air produces clouds. Enough clouds in the air produces condensation which in turn produces precipitation, causing the water to fall back to the ground again. Water evaporating would have basically made the world more along the lines of massive tropical rainforests than desert. The water has to go somewhere. And the temperatures were not hot enough to boil away the sea (if it was, then everyone on the planet better have gotten some SPF 500,000 sunblock or they'd all be crispy critters).
The Sunrise Sea (which became the Sea of Silt) is not the Endless Sea. The Endless Sea would be referring to the world-wide ocean (endless ocean) that covered the planet in the Blue Age. The transition from the Blue to the Green Age is noted with the loss of these oceans (the Brown Tide and the Pristine Tower's effects), making the water go away and dry land to exist as more than just a smattering of small islands.
I believe your confusion is you are equating the Endless Sea with the Sea of Silt, which is not true. The Sunrise Sea, which existed in the Green Age, was what became the Sea of Silt. That took place long after the Blue Age ended. I don't mean merely hundreds of years, but thousands of years later.
This is why one should get ample sleep before trying to hold a conversation...as it appears upon futher review of my Wanders Chronicle you are correct. I have hastily mistaken the Endless Sea for the Sunrise Sea.
please let the thread continue with the theory of Oronis being the major factor in the destruction of the Sunrise Sea
This is why one should get ample sleep before trying to hold a conversation...as it appears upon futher review of my Wanders Chronicle you are correct. I have hastily mistaken the Endless Sea for the Sunrise Sea.
please let the thread continue with the theory of Oronis being the major factor in the destruction of the Sunrise Sea
Its understandable. Some of us have spent far too much time digging through the materials and theorizing about a *lot* if different things in Dark Sun ;)
Its understandable. Some of us have spent far too much time digging through the materials and theorizing about a *lot* if different things in Dark Sun ;)
i will say on your comment of finding the sun responsible for the "evaporation" of the water silly..IMO i do not find it silly.
1st it is a fantasy world and real world physics can be thrown out the window for alot of things/issues/explaination. i tend to use some RW phyics but i don't rely on them as it is a fanasy world.
2nd radiation and heat from the sun have already had a toll (IMO) on more than just water, as even humans have mutations such as webbed finger's and toe's to distorted facial features according to the original box set. although this was Originally referred to as abuse of magic that caused this, i believe it was the abuse fo magic that lead to this through the abuse of the Pristien Tower. its a huge circle of over use of magic and the suns sped up aging.
i will say on your comment of finding the sun responsible for the "evaporation" of the water silly..IMO i do not find it silly.
Not that the sun responsible of evaporation being silly, just that evaporation is why there is no water. But I digress.
1st it is a fantasy world and real world physics can be thrown out the window for alot of things/issues/explaination. i tend to use some RW phyics but i don't rely on them as it is a fanasy world.
True enough, but I tend to think there should be some semblance of structure to things. And since athas is already very different from what people would expect, I'd like to make at least some plausability to the setting, to help with realism.
2nd radiation and heat from the sun have already had a toll (IMO) on more than just water, as even humans have mutations such as webbed finger's and toe's to distorted facial features according to the original box set. although this was Originally referred to as abuse of magic that caused this, i believe it was the abuse fo magic that lead to this through the abuse of the Pristien Tower. its a huge circle of over use of magic and the suns sped up aging.
The mutations are not tied directly to the sun, but rather to the Pristine Tower. There may be some adaptations to the environment, sure. But if the sun's radiation and heat was enough to evaporate the seas, the average Athasian temperature would probably be a couple hundred degrees higher than it currently is. Life wouldn't be able to be sustained.
Not that the sun responsible of evaporation being silly, just that evaporation is why there is no water. But I digress.
ah ok.. i see were you are coming from now.:cool:
True enough, but I tend to think there should be some semblance of structure to things. And since athas is already very different from what people would expect, I'd like to make at least some plausability to the setting, to help with realism.
true enough and it's not as though i throw out the book on common sense either or on RW physics, but i don't let them govern every aspect of the world either.
The mutations are not tied directly to the sun, but rather to the Pristine Tower. There may be some adaptations to the environment, sure. But if the sun's radiation and heat was enough to evaporate the seas, the average Athasian temperature would probably be a couple hundred degrees higher than it currently is. Life wouldn't be able to be sustained.
i think we both more else agree on the Pristine Tower and enviroment issue here.
i have to say since coming to this message board a few days (actually nights) ago, i feel as though i have had a huge spark of creativity and new idea's spun up. i really apprciate what the DS forum has provided me so far creativity wise.:D
true enough and it's not as though i throw out the book on common sense either or on RW physics, but i don't let them govern every aspect of the world either.
Oh, I agree, it is a fantasy game world, so bending rules works for me. Most of the time, I get to a sort of pseudo-scientific level, not really something to nitpick, purely for some plausibility in how things came to be.
i think we both more else agree on the Pristine Tower and enviroment issue here.
i have to say since coming to this message board a few days (actually nights) ago, i feel as though i have had a huge spark of creativity and new idea's spun up. i really apprciate what the DS forum has provided me so far creativity wise.:D
Cool, this forum, in my experience, is filled with all kinds of people who have a variety of ideas. We're a bit protective of our own particular view of Dark Sun (and each and every one of us has our own little peculiarities to the setting) -- to the point of occasionally getting a bit.... heated.... in discussions about those subjects, but more often than not, what I personally pull from this forum are ideas. I might have a rough idea or concept for something, and then it gets refined in the discussions and arguments here, made into something a bit more well thought out and formulated to work in my campaigns.
Occasionally, something brought up here will make me totally ditch a previous idea and adopt something new (like the notion of a landlocked Athas I mentioned above, as well as the idea of a lot of sentient predators, the combination of the two resulted in a very limited amount of expansion and exploration in the world).
Oh, I agree, it is a fantasy game world, so bending rules works for me. Most of the time, I get to a sort of pseudo-scientific level, not really something to nitpick, purely for some plausibility in how things came to be.
Cool, this forum, in my experience, is filled with all kinds of people who have a variety of ideas. We're a bit protective of our own particular view of Dark Sun (and each and every one of us has our own little peculiarities to the setting) -- to the point of occasionally getting a bit.... heated.... in discussions about those subjects, but more often than not, what I personally pull from this forum are ideas. I might have a rough idea or concept for something, and then it gets refined in the discussions and arguments here, made into something a bit more well thought out and formulated to work in my campaigns.
Occasionally, something brought up here will make me totally ditch a previous idea and adopt something new (like the notion of a landlocked Athas I mentioned above, as well as the idea of a lot of sentient predators, the combination of the two resulted in a very limited amount of expansion and exploration in the world).
i have noticed quite a bit of that too, just from reading various threads here. but like you i have taken what was a small seeded thought and turned into full blown plant growth of idea's.
so far i must say i ahve been enjoying the many differnt views and out looks of Athas and am quite pleased DS still lives on, even if it is only in fan based material (mostly).
i have noticed quite a bit of that too, just from reading various threads here. but like you i have taken what was a small seeded thought and turned into full blown plant growth of idea's.
That is one of the biggest reasons I've hung around on this forum for as long as I have. There just is too many good and intriguing ideas which show up here. sort of a constant brainstorm
so far i must say i ahve been enjoying the many differnt views and out looks of Athas and am quite pleased DS still lives on, even if it is only in fan based material (mostly).
Honestly, while I think it takes a bit longer for things to come out than if it was a fully commercially-produced and published product any more, I think the fact that the fans are helping shape the setting any more is a good thing.
That's an idea that was presented countless times in the past. Personally, I'm not fond of there needing to be more Champions. I'd think that for the most part, the Champions were made to deal with the most prolific/problematic of the races, for the rest of them... Rajaat probably didn't need a Champion.
Actually, I don't think Rajaat needed champions at all really. He for some reason, didn't want to do it himself, Rise and Fall hints at this, though it isn't really canon.
Actually, I don't think Rajaat needed champions at all really. He for some reason, didn't want to do it himself, Rise and Fall hints at this, though it isn't really canon.
I don't think Rajaat is as powerful as a feww ppl here believe he is. I would guesstimate he has a level 40-45 caster level somwhat lwer for psionics.
Actually, I don't think Rajaat needed champions at all really. He for some reason, didn't want to do it himself, Rise and Fall hints at this, though it isn't really canon.
I think he did need the Champions. And, that his power wasn't so extremely overwhelming (or else his Champions would probably have been unable to defeat him). That said, I do tend to think he has been busy securing a power base for himself, and I think it is foolish to believe he is trapped in his current state any more than he wants to be.
I think he did need the Champions. And, that his power wasn't so extremely overwhelming (or else his Champions would probably have been unable to defeat him). That said, I do tend to think he has been busy securing a power base for himself, and I think it is foolish to believe he is trapped in his current state any more than he wants to be.
You think he WANTS to be in the hollow? He had 2000 years to escape the first time, why didn't he?
I don't think Rajaat is as powerful as a feww ppl here believe he is. I would guesstimate he has a level 40-45 caster level somwhat lwer for psionics.
you mean 3rd edition wise? He was able to easily kill Tec, and imprison Andropinis, who were 22nd and 21st level dragons very easily. Have you ever seen the map of Ur Draxa? It's absolutely huge, bigger than New York city. It's a circular city, about IIRC 25 miles in diameter and he was able to flood that and turn the entire valley of dust and fire into the valley of the Cerulean storm, which doesn't show any signs of stopping.
you mean 3rd edition wise? He was able to easily kill Tec, and imprison Andropinis, who were 22nd and 21st level dragons very easily. Have you ever seen the map of Ur Draxa? It's absolutely huge, bigger than New York city. It's a circular city, about IIRC 25 miles in diameter and he was able to flood that and turn the entire valley of dust and fire into the valley of the Cerulean storm, which doesn't show any signs of stopping.
Yeah but thats withen the power of a level 40 odd wizard. IN FR there are Netherise archwizards who have cast similar spells to Rajaat and they're level 35-35. He doesn't need to be level 50 or 60+ to do that. If I had to stat Rajaat I would update the Pyreen and make him cast arcane spells instead of druidic spells. Give him 10 levels of Cerebremancer and 15-20 wizard levels. Remeber pyreen cast spells as a level 4 or 16 Druid (wizard in Rajaats case IMHO).
Forgotten Realms has several epic level spells stated out that are comparable to Rajaats most powerful spells. See Lost Empires of Faerun, Dragons of Faerun, Players guide to Faerun. Different worlds of course but the mechanics behind epic magic don't change.
You think he WANTS to be in the hollow? He had 2000 years to escape the first time, why didn't he?
No, I think he *was* trapped before in the hollow against his will. But now, I think he's only restrained there as long as he wants to be, while he builds a more solid power base for himself. I tend to think of him as lulling his enemies into a false sense of security, and that Sadira's spells are insufficient for holding Rajaat in the Hollow. I believe Rajaat's plans are such that he needs time to prepare, but once he's done with those preparations, he'll be back, and virtually unstoppable, especially by the scant few Champions that are left.
No, I think he *was* trapped before in the hollow against his will. But now, I think he's only restrained there as long as he wants to be, while he builds a more solid power base for himself. I tend to think of him as lulling his enemies into a false sense of security, and that Sadira's spells are insufficient for holding Rajaat in the Hollow. I believe Rajaat's plans are such that he needs time to prepare, but once he's done with those preparations, he'll be back, and virtually unstoppable, especially by the scant few Champions that are left.
What do you think Rajaat would do if one or more of his champions/members of a rebirth race, left Athas? Would he pursue them, or just not care?
What do you think Rajaat would do if one or more of his champions/members of a rebirth race, left Athas? Would he pursue them, or just not care?
Rajaat wants to return Athas to the Blue Age, in his mind, for that to happen, anything from the Green Age needs to be destroyed, or removed from Athas. If someone left to another plane, then Rajaat would probably not care, because that still fits into his plan... unless that person (or people) returns.
http://www.spelljammer.org/worlds/CrimsonSphere/