what back ground info do you guys come up with to justifie these classes as PC classes? (and no i am not suggesting it be removed or anything of that notion) BUt it's not like other D&D worlds were if you want to become a wizard you just go join up at the local wizard tower acadamy or your mom slept with a Greta Silver Wyrm and now you have the blood of a dragon coursing through your viens allowing you to cast sorcery magic.
Wizards outside of cities are either apprentices or self-taught (i.e. you steal writtings or find them in some ruin, teach yourself to read, then learn spells, yadi yadi yada).
Pretty much all wizards in cities are or were apprentices, benefiting from state-sponsored litteracy or the hard-kept secret knowledge of an independant wizard.
Wizards outside of cities are either apprentices or self-taught (i.e. you steal writtings or find them in some ruin, teach yourself to read, then learn spells, yadi yadi yada).
I would only think state-sponcered litteracy would be available in a CS like Kurn. other wise the independant wizard theroy kinda works, i guess.
and as far as out side the city walls. how would one even attempt to self teach reading and writing if they have no knowledge of what either are.
How do you imagine royal defilers, those several dozen folk employed by a sorcerer-king or his templarate, learn to read their spell tablets, scrolls, books, etc? A royal defiler, as part of his training to become a wizard, is taught by the state to read, for reading is essential to spellcasting but is also a mark of power and prestige, and in many a city-state royal defilers are not merely tolerated lackeys but respected/feared ranking members of the state machine, sometimes even part of the templarate (albeit not as templars, though they may have secular authority as a prestige class feature).
Real-world people can learn to read if surrounded by books (on Athas: tablets, scrolls, glyphs on cave walls, bas-reliefs on ruins of the Ancients, ...). Many a great philosopher and scientist of the beggining of the 20th century were entirely self-taugh up to the point they were accepted at a university. It's rare. Here...it's fantasy. So. touche'
How do you imagine royal defilers, those several dozen folk employed by a sorcerer-king or his templarate, learn to read their spell tablets, scrolls, books, etc? A royal defiler, as part of his training to become a wizard, is taught by the state to read, for reading is essential to spellcasting but is also a mark of power and prestige, and in many a city-state royal defilers are not merely tolerated lackeys but respected/feared ranking members of the state machine, sometimes even part of the templarate (albeit not as templars, though they may have secular authority as a prestige class feature).
ok i guess from the point of a defiler yes, but i don't for see many players choosing the defielr path unless they just don't care to play a hero of sorts in the game.
i'm just trying to come up with a sound reason for ppl who would normally not be allowed to read or write to become a wizard of sorts.
although this has led me to think, can Athas magic be of a sorcorer nature? i have not read the 3e rules yet, so i am unsure if sorcorers are even a vailable throguh that rule system. if so then i could explain a lot for how PC's develop into spell casters. so that if they don't have some sort of back ground story to support being a normal spell caster they could still ave developed powers based on sorcery. maybe
So that's the big problem with having sorcerers in Dark Sun. How would a being, capable of weaving arcane energies from his own body avoid the eyes of the Sorcerer Kings? What would stop them from cutting him up to figure out how he ticks? How could you balance a being capable of casting the most powerful magic in Dark Sun without any drawbacks?
It's a tough sell if you ask me.
It would be hard to introduce sorcery in Dark Sun. The core idea of arcane magic in Dark Sun is that you have to technically cheat to use it. Unlike in other campaign worlds, the world of Athas doesn't have arcane energy permeating it. You have to drain the life force of plant life nearby to even be capable of casting arcane spells. More powerful casters can drain the life force of other creatures to get the same effect, but in the end it comes down to the same thing... you have to find something you can convert into arcane energy to cast arcane spells.
So that's the big problem with having sorcerers in Dark Sun. How would a being, capable of weaving arcane energies from his own body avoid the eyes of the Sorcerer Kings? What would stop them from cutting him up to figure out how he ticks? How could you balance a being capable of casting the most powerful magic in Dark Sun without any drawbacks?
It's a tough sell if you ask me.
i was going with more of the approach that "sorcerer's" still had to defile/preserve to cast, but instead of studying they earned there ability to cast inately, instead of studying text. when they 1st starting out their ability to defile and/or preserve would happen randomly and over course of play/xp develop into an abilty to control how much defilation occurs.
i don't know i am just looking for other ways to explain spell casters in a world were reading/writing is out lawed to those not under the supervision of the SK's templar's or who have found a teacher willing to risk death to pass on the knowledge of magic.
It would be hard to introduce sorcery in Dark Sun. The core idea of arcane magic in Dark Sun is that you have to technically cheat to use it. Unlike in other campaign worlds, the world of Athas doesn't have arcane energy permeating it. You have to drain the life force of plant life nearby to even be capable of casting arcane spells. More powerful casters can drain the life force of other creatures to get the same effect, but in the end it comes down to the same thing... you have to find something you can convert into arcane energy to cast arcane spells.
So that's the big problem with having sorcerers in Dark Sun. How would a being, capable of weaving arcane energies from his own body avoid the eyes of the Sorcerer Kings? What would stop them from cutting him up to figure out how he ticks? How could you balance a being capable of casting the most powerful magic in Dark Sun without any drawbacks?
It's a tough sell if you ask me.
I don't think it has to be that extreme. Sorcerers are just people who can draw life energy out of plants and use it to cast spells spontaneously. They have no more innate magical power than wizards, they just don't need to prepare their spells. Now, I do think that not having a spellbook is a huge advantage on Athas, and I believe it's the reason why 3rd ed. DS doesn't have sorcs.
Back on wizards, has anyone thought of the old, time tested, father teaching his son or uncle/neice grandparents, etc... keeping the family's secret tradition.
oh! that would be a nice back drop.
after reading through the DK book, it appears that Wild Mages (from the Tome Of Magic AD&D book) are acceptable. this would even make defiling/preserving even more interesting. An uncontrolled magic wielder with a chance of just about anything to happen when they cast a spell!
Wild Mage is in 3.5 in the Complete Arcane but its more fun if you have the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting which has the wild magic table in it.
Wild Mage is in 3.5 in the Complete Arcane but its more fun if you have the Forgotten Realms Campaign setting which has the wild magic table in it.
i have the FR 2ed and 3.x ed, how ever i do not have 3.5 Complete Arcane
but the tables provided in the Tome of Magic is great, and if i am not mistaken the DK book has a good list of craziness that can take palce as well.
i think random magical happening in a defiler/preserver setting is awesome.
However, the sorcerers don't need anyone to teach them, they just start figuring things out on their own. Now, this disparity does tend to make most sorcerers into defilers (nobody taught them to control exactly how much plant life to take in order to not defile), while most preservers tend to be wizards (they have received some kind of training). However, there still are wizards that are defilers, and there are sorcerers that are preservers.
I also tend to rule that in a world where most people don't know the difference between preserver and defiler, the separation of sorcerer and wizard is even less likely to be understood. The two classes more or less arecollectively lumped together as Preserver or Defiler, despite the differences in exactly how they cast their spells.
As I have both sorcerers and wizards in my Dark Sun campaigns (sorcerers being somehow decended from the sorcerer-kings, however watered down (2,000 years is a LONG time), that spontaneously have the ability to innately use arcane magic -- heck, most don't even necessarily know that great great great great great great great great great great great grandma was Abalach-Re; not every decendant becomes a sorcerer, but every sorcerer is decended from the Sorcerer-Kings, somehow), I tend to have it where the wizards do need some kind of instructor/trainer. Nothing too formal -- a relative, a friend, someone who can teach you.
However, the sorcerers don't need anyone to teach them, they just start figuring things out on their own. Now, this disparity does tend to make most sorcerers into defilers (nobody taught them to control exactly how much plant life to take in order to not defile), while most preservers tend to be wizards (they have received some kind of training). However, there still are wizards that are defilers, and there are sorcerers that are preservers.
I also tend to rule that in a world where most people don't know the difference between preserver and defiler, the separation of sorcerer and wizard is even less likely to be understood. The two classes more or less arecollectively lumped together as Preserver or Defiler, despite the differences in exactly how they cast their spells.
I like this idea. Wonder why Athas.org doesn't recommend the sorcerer.
I like this idea. Wonder why Athas.org doesn't recommend the sorcerer.
I think it was because at the time, they wanted to stick with the Wizard, the Sorcerer was kind of an unknown, and difficult to explain how it exists in Dark Sun. Then, once the Core was finalized, the rule was that it did not change except for errata. Otherwise, we'd spend eternity on the Core, and never expand to other projects ;)
do you treat the sorceror's defiling/preserving ability as a random out come when they cast. it's an idea i am mulling over that right now, and kinda of making it random and slightly uncontroled at 1st and as the player progresses they learn to control the out come of their casting.
No. Arcane magic, in my campaigns has a very precise and standard cost in life -- nothing random. For random weirdness, I leave that to the Wilder class for Psionics. Now, the sorcerer can know his or her "royal" ancestry, or not. I see it more as an explanation to the existence of someone who can innately manipulate obviously unnatural forces. But, I also tend to think that for the most part, delving into historical details is not what people generally have time to meddle in. So.... the idea that a sorcerer doesn't know that his or her ancestor was Nibenay, is completely acceptable to me.
However, I do expect characters that stray from the norm to need good roleplaying backgrounds to explain how their character came to be. The Sorcerer (preserver) is one of those I somewhat expect justification for a character to be. I'll more or less accept any of the other three combinations (Wizard (preserver), Sorcerer (defiler), and Wizard (defiler) are all acceptable without really needing as detailed a history). Basically, it is how I kinda control the rarer characters from existing.... min-maxers/metagamers, in my experience, hate grinding out good character histories.
Wonder why Athas.org doesn't recommend the sorcerer.
4E will bring even greater changes to the "rules" as set down in 2E TSR products, what with 4E being - in many important places - so different from 3E.
The wizard and sorcerer debacle is going away, replaced by other debacles on new subjects.
IMO, all the better, because 3E conversion brough many unresolved issues among the designers, things that fans and designers didn't like, but people didn't like these things in the same way....hence the problem. You can't get people to agree or come up with a stuitable solution - or even a suitable definition of the issue. Consider defiling and it's advantages.
Designing 4E DS will be fun and promises to be...well, full of promises ;)
4E will bring even greater changes to the "rules" as set down in 2E TSR products, what with 4E being - in many important places - so different from 3E.
The wizard and sorcerer debacle is going away, replaced by other debacles on new subjects.
IMO, all the better, because 3E conversion brough many unresolved issues among the designers, things that fans and designers didn't like, but people didn't like these things in the same way....hence the problem. You can't get people to agree or come up with a stuitable solution - or even a suitable definition of the issue. Consider defiling and it's advantages.
Designing 4E DS will be fun and promises to be...well, full of promises ;)
the only thing I'm looking forward to in 4th ed is I'm wondering if they canmake high level D&D work better than it does now. My PCs are lvl 11 and I use alot o houserules and the walls of reality are starting to crack already. Potential enemies need to be able to survive around 150 damage or m re per round via Sorcerer metamagic and a Fighter who hits for 25-50+ damage per round. Just wait for 4.5;) Large numbers of lower level enemies or several spellcasters can be tough for them though.
Just wait for 4.5;)
They might do that, but IMO it would be crazy of them. It's a lesson from 3E they've (hopefuly) learned, i.e. that we are ready to buy plenty of **** if only they make it compatible with the rest of the **** they dish out. Pardon my language ;)
But seriously, I am a bit leniant on material components insofar as if it interferes with the gameplay, I'll downplay the use of the components. If it helps with the story, I'll play it up more.