Anyone have that dungeon master's screen with altered spells? It says a creature summoned via gate can't leave Ravenloft through the gate. I would suspect in this case deities know this and wouldn't send an avatar.
However, in later editions that was removed. They certainly trapped a demigod, Vecna, as you point out, in Domains of Dread and they routinely interfere in spellcasting regardless of the "rank" of the deity providing the divine spells. In the Shadow Rift, Gwydion is a CR 40 monstrosity that seems very much like a deity trapped between planes at the behest of the Dark Powers.
Yet at the same time, the sorts of creatures that can break the rules of Ravenloft with reality bubbles are surprisingly weak. Any fiend will have one. The Dukkar is able to move around the domains at will and he's only a wimpy half-human, half-fiend. Even the mistress of the Carnival has reality-warping effects that contravene the background rules set by the Dark Powers.
So it all boils down to how you want them to be. One interpretation is that there are limits on the DPs and they physically cannot control certain things. Another is that there are limits on the DPs, but not within Ravenloft except what they willingly choose not to exercise. A final one is that there are no limits on the DPs whatsoever except what they willingly choose not to exercise.
For me, the theory that works best is that the DPs are completely supreme within Ravenloft, and are comparable in power to most deities outside of it (but not superior to deities). Nothing happens within Ravenloft without their permission, so an errant avatar of an outworld god would definitely be trapped unless the DPs saw fit to let it go.
Note that a trapped avatar may be better than a dead avatar, as far as the DPs go. Each deity can only have a finite number of avatars and for each one that's trapped in Ravenloft, the DPs have a very potent bargaining chip. One campaign I ran in the mid 1990s had a homeworld deity's three avatars trapped in Ravenloft, and they lost "radio contact" with their initial deity and it was up to the PCs to hunt them down and dispatch them so they could discorporate and return home. At one point Azalin worked out what was going on and possessed the body of the third and final avatar, making things very hard for the PCs.
I wonder if Ravenloft is a spin-off of something mentioned in the 1E manual of planes, called the demi-plane of imprisonment in the ethereal plane. It says it's run by evil greater than that of the nine hells, but we know Ravenloft isn't worse than the lower planes. Soth was able to escape from Ravenloft somehow through his former wife Isolode. I don't know how Vecna did it.
Soth was able to escape from Ravenloft somehow through his former wife Isolode.
I thought the DPs released him because he was an apathetic creature that was no longer amusing to them (and someone more worthy of his status as a darklord came along).
By "radio control," I think HuMan means communication. But then it could be both if you have a twisted enough imagination. Also, the Horn of Valhalla in 2e RL is just one example of the gods countering the DPs; the whole Ysgardian pantheon would likely intervene if enough followers were snatched away and not returned, as happened when someone used the Horn too many times.
Then there's the Unspoken Pact--perhaps something akin to the Pact Primeval, an agreement that not even the gods themselves can oppose. When the powers of Ysgard reclaimed the spirits summoned by the Horn in 2e RL, they weren't breaking the Unspoken Pact. They were just reclaiming their property after a mortal broke the pact of summoning. Knowingly or not.
Well, what do you mean by radio contact? If you mean they couldn't communicate with their god, then that kinda sucks, but if it means the link to them was totally severed then the deity couldn't control them at all, and I guess they'd be vegetables, which was it?
I would rule that any avatar is a self aware creature and even can have a distinct personality. Not a remote controlled carbon copy drone of the deity who creates them.
I wonder if Ravenloft is a spin-off of something mentioned in the 1E manual of planes, called the demi-plane of imprisonment in the ethereal plane. It says it's run by evil greater than that of the nine hells, but we know Ravenloft isn't worse than the lower planes. Soth was able to escape from Ravenloft somehow through his former wife Isolode. I don't know how Vecna did it.
The demi-plane of imprisonment is not the demiplane of dread as 2E Planescape and later sources show.
Well, what do you mean by radio contact? If you mean they couldn't communicate with their god, then that kinda sucks, but if it means the link to them was totally severed then the deity couldn't control them at all, and I guess they'd be vegetables, which was it?
Which do you think would be more fun?
(It was the first.)
They got Vecna through the link to his avatar. How did he escape? It says in Domains of Dread that the mists can't get you on the outer planes (cept if you have an avatar someplace the mists can go) They can however, penetrate the grey and enter Athas. Can they get you on the astral plane? That isn't connected to the ethereal where Ravenloft is.
Anyone have that dungeon master's screen with altered spells? It says a creature summoned via gate can't leave Ravenloft through the gate. I would suspect in this case deities know this and wouldn't send an avatar.
Well, Avatars are valuable cause they cost power points to create and could be salvaged back into such, the power points in them are likewise valuable. (AD&D Player's guide to immortals)
An Avatar is connected to it's host located in it's Home plane via a silver cord not to unlike the Astral Traveler spell and if the cord is ever severed the Avatar just drops dead and all power points and the Avatar is lost to the host. (AD&D Players guide to Immortals)
I think only a stubborn Deity wouldn't just cut it's losts, empty as much power points and experience that can then "pull the plug"
Of course there might be a chance, cause it's a demi-god we are talking about here, that the "Host" itself resides all it's experience in the Avatar and there is no Silvery cord leading to an external host in the Deity's Home plane. (Very unwise move to put everything into 1 Avatar)
Ravenloft is "Deep Ether" and every Reality has a Ethereal Plane though it has mutated into the "Grey" in Athas,thus why the Mists CAN get to Athas. Likewise the Astral touches the Ethereal so the Mists technically could grab something from the Astral...guessing there would actually have to be someone the Dark powers want from the Astral (other then huge Amoebas or the occasional swarm of nippers..the only real permaneant residents)
Well, Avatars are valuable cause they cost power points to create and could be salvaged back into such, the power points in them are likewise valuable. (AD&D Player's guide to immortals)
While your answer is sound, logical, and well thought, it really has no bearing in this particular instance because Ravenloft runs on the AD&D mechanics whereas the Player's Guide to Immortals is D&D without the A. There was no AD&D guide to immortals. Though similar, D&D and AD&D were separate game systems until 3rd Edition. Things that were canonical in D&D had absolutely no bearing on AD&D, including the rules on Immortals.
That being said, because the Gods of AD&D are run differently, and Power Points have no bearing, it is entirely possible that a god would want to save his avatars, especially because I agree that they are free thinking creatures, even though they are also the gods themselves.
Considering that many of the characters drawn into the realms where personally protected by deities, (Soth comes to mind, but I know there are more) probably mean that DP trumps even greater deities. All in all, I see the DP as more like primal forces than deities, and so even the deities are under its/their authority.
Ah, the "Universal Consciousness" of Morals?
In the end it's your own fault you get trapped in the Mists and it is actually You Yourself that keeps you there in your "personal hell" :evillaugh
Ah, the "Universal Consciousness" of Morals?
In the end it's your own fault you get trapped in the Mists and it is actually You Yourself that keeps you there in your "personal hell" :evillaugh
That sounds about right. If Strahd would willingly give up his pursuit of Tatyana and admit to himself that he was wrong for what he did, I suspect that he would be "redeemed"-released by the DP. I think it is the nature of the curse that provides the clue to the DL's escape.
A good example of this can be found in the webcomic Order of the Stick (for those of you familiar with it, I'm referring to Redcloak).
A darklord admitting their mistake? Of the darklords that have been released from their prisons (Soth and Alfred Timothy are the only ones I know of) it's only been because someone more worthy of the title came along. Darklords are some of the most narcissistic beings in the multiverse; they'll never admit to a mistake because that would mean they were wrong about something. Try explaining that to someone like Strahd or Azalin. Neither one is a type I'd call "accepting of criticism." But please excuse me if I take this idea as a way to further torment my two most loathed DLs in "The Gothic Journals." Salt? Try rubbing the truth in the wound.
Sorry, I forgot to add "if their egos weren't in the way":D I should've also said that it wasn't the only way. So far, the ways of "escaping" are: someone better comes along (the idea was explored for G'Henna), indifference (Soth and A. Timothy), actual redemption (I know, this HIGHLY unlikely, but this was an option that was listed at the end of the G'Henna adventure), being killed (Duke Gundar), or casting/manifesting and epic spell/power (Vecna).
Also, I suspect Bakholis or Camille are better examples of getting killed out, as Gundar wasn't totally destroyed; his demotion was a combination of ousting and defeat by a rival evil force. If just getting staked, by itself, could allow a vampire to weasel out of the job, wouldn't Strahd have exploited that loophole, ages ago? He could easily order his zombies to jab a stake through him while he's sleeping, haul him across the border, then pull the stake out the instant he's safely on the other side.
Just for completeness, I'd add "being set up to get replaced from the start" (Radaga from Feast of Goblyns) to the getting-out-of-your-darklordship options. In her case, the "something better" didn't come along later; rather, her successor (her ancestor Daglan) was already in preparation when she received her domain.
Also, I suspect Bakholis or Camille are better examples of getting killed out, as Gundar wasn't totally destroyed; his demotion was a combination of ousting and defeat by a rival evil force. If just getting staked, by itself, could allow a vampire to weasel out of the job, wouldn't Strahd have exploited that loophole, ages ago? He could easily order his zombies to jab a stake through him while he's sleeping, haul him across the border, then pull the stake out the instant he's safely on the other side.
I had forgotten about Bakholis and Camille (they are better examples). While Gundar's ousting and defeat combo is at least plausible (and documented), it just seems like there is something's missing. Perhaps it was the disappointment of the DPs (for what reason, IDK).
Camille I've heard a lot about, but Bakholis seems like he was up to some real sick stuff--is it true he kept his own daughter alive but continually bleeding for five years with his son's magical help? What's his story, beyond the brief blurb in the Gazetteers?
Hadn't heard anything about that. I'd like to know your source.
Camille I've heard a lot about, but Bakholis seems like he was up to some real sick stuff--is it true he kept his own daughter alive but continually bleeding for five years with his son's magical help? What's his story, beyond the brief blurb in the Gazetteers?
Yes, as Mr. Mangrum points out, that incident is a reference to Duke Gundar, not Bakholis. Gundar's daughter was mortally wounded in the crossfire in one of his frequent skirmishes with his wizard son, and her spilled blood on the flagstones of the castle courtyard opened a portal out of Gundarak. Father and son called a temporary truce to investigate this passageway, and kept her half-alive and bleeding for years while they searched for a way to exploit it.
Interestingly, that portal (now in Gabrielle's hands) probably still exists, and bleeding a byblow of Gundar's could cause it to open. OTOH, if Soth's less-than-satisfactory reward for passing through the portal is typical, it may not be worth going dhampir-hunting to make the attempt.
The primary source on Gundar (including the magical preservation of his daughter's corpse) comes from the novel Knight of the Black Rose.
THANK YOU!
Yes, I remember now. And mea culpa on the "Bakholis" in the post; that's been changed.The primary source on Gundar (including the magical preservation of his daughter's corpse) comes from the novel Knight of the Black Rose.
Ah, I haven't read that book
Thanks, I'll have to go look for it.Sorry, I forgot to add "if their egos weren't in the way":D I should've also said that it wasn't the only way. So far, the ways of "escaping" are: someone better comes along (the idea was explored for G'Henna), indifference (Soth and A. Timothy), actual redemption (I know, this HIGHLY unlikely, but this was an option that was listed at the end of the G'Henna adventure), being killed (Duke Gundar), or casting/manifesting and epic spell/power (Vecna).
Actually, I remember the 2nd edition "Encyclopedia Magica" had a magic item in it called the "Rift Spanner." It would let you escape Ravenloft. It had a 1% chance of working per either one soul or 10 souls. And yes, it was a major artifact.
Wes
Actually, I remember the 2nd edition "Encyclopedia Magica" had a magic item in it called the "Rift Spanner." It would let you escape Ravenloft. It had a 1% chance of working per either one soul or 10 souls. And yes, it was a major artifact.
Wes
The Rift Spanner was updated and mentioned in the RG II, with the chance of 1% of success per level drained from living victims. It specifically said darklords would be left behind, so that wouldn't work. Not that they know that--or that it exists. If Azalin did realize it exists he'd no doubt use it. I can just imagine the look on his skeletal face when he's left behind. :D
The Rift Spanner was updated and mentioned in the RG II, with the chance of 1% of success per level drained from living victims. It specifically said darklords would be left behind, so that wouldn't work. Not that they know that--or that it exists. If Azalin did realize it exists he'd no doubt use it. I can just imagine the look on his skeletal face when he's left behind. :D
Considering how many things the DP would throw at you for finding a way to successfully leave and trying to do it, PC's better be some epic level people beforehand. Especially if word got out to the commoners, it would be a very bad situation to have thousands of commoners begging and pleading every day to get taken along, or maybe even asking to sacrifice themselves in hopes that their soul could escape from RL and be free to find a reward. Commoners are sooo easy to manipulate.:D
Wes