Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 flip Feb 26, 2008 9:19:31	So, anybody going to D&D Experience this weekend?
#2 Pennarin Feb 26, 2008 13:12:39	If I lived in the US...? SURE!!! 'Chance to see 4E first hand would be worth it. Shoot me the amazing stuff you'll discover over there, flip, I'm starved for 4E. If you can slip in a video camera too, would be cool. Maybe a 30 min gameplay video/sound file recorded using a cellphone?
#3 pneumatik Feb 27, 2008 12:05:24	I'll be there friday night and all day saturday. I'm playing the two Living Realms 4th ed previews and two rounds of Living Greyhawk. If I see anything relevant to DS in the 4th ed previews I'll comment here. The mods are level 1 with pregens, so I'm not expecting much.
#4 pneumatik Mar 03, 2008 12:19:08	So, DnD XP is over, and that means I've played some 4th ed. I noticed a few things about 4th ed that I think will specifically impact Dark Sun more than other settings. First, level 1 characters are much more survivable. I played a lvl 1 dwarven fighter with 33 hps and a level 1 half-elf warlock with 28 hps (both had good cons, which I'm sure helped). While to-hit, damage, and skill rolls didn't seem much better than for level one 3.5 characters, I definitely think you don't need to start PCs at 3rd level to let them survive the harsh environment of Athas. Speaking of harsh environment, while I don't know anything about the rules for incorporating traps and other environmental hazards into combats, there were definitely lots of traps and environmental hazards in the 4th ed mods I played. Hopefully there are good rules for this (and not just good mods using good ad-hoc rules) so that the Athasian environment can be easily included in fights. Right now PCs are either severely crippled by the desert environment or they use magic to ignore it. 4th ed looks like the environment can instead be part of, but not dominate, outdoor encounters. Finally, arcanists. First of all, wizards and warlocks are not really mechanically different. I don't know what flavor goes along with each one using its spells (all powers that use the arcane power source are called spells), but effect-wise they're similar enough - obvious magical effects - that including both shouldn't mess up the setting too much. Both warlocks and wizards require an "implement" to use their powers. For the demo characters, it was a wand. Using an implement should make it obvious that a character is a spellcaster, which I think is important to the setting as a spellbook in 2nd ed. And speaking of spellboks, wizards still had one. It allowed them to choose to prepare one of two daily powers after any extended rest. I don't know what would happen if they lose their spellbook, but it's definitely still there for people who want to involve that facet of spellcasting in games.
#5 flip Mar 04, 2008 18:00:52	I have to say that I quite enjoyed myself. I played a few delves, and the two long LFR preview adventures. I also got to meet and chat a bit with Teos, for all the fellow greybeards from the DSML. My impressions of the system are pretty favorable. There are a couple of rough spots, and one or two thoroughly cheap moves that are apparently already amended. In general, it plays very smoothly, even for people just picking up the system. Everything used the same set of six pregens, which you can already find floating around the net. Interesting to note now that the only class we really havn't seen anything from is the Warlord. I think I was most impressed with the improvements to resource management. between fights, all you really have to keep track of is your remaning Healing Surges (there's a limited number per day) and your daily use powers. You can fully heal up after a fight using your healing surges, which I think will wonders for allowing your early fights to get just as dangerous as your late-day fights. Everyone can self-heal once in a fight. It's a standard action, for everyone but the fighter (who can do it as a minor!) action. Death is an interesting event now -- you're not just ticking off lost hit points every round; there is now a save system in place. Each round, you roll a savings throw (simply: 1-9 fails, 10-20 passes); three failures, and you're dead. We lost the ranger to that in the second to last fight, and got clobbered. Interesting to note that all the rolling has been shifted to the character initiating the action. No more will save by the victim, now it's an attack against the defender's Will. It's an interesting shift in the dynamic, even if it doesn't really change the math any. I'm still gelling and distilling a lot of what I saw. I've been working on the backend for the site, as well; going to incorporate what I can guess of the format of how things look so far. Eventual release, that will be.
#6 Pennarin Mar 04, 2008 18:15:05	Death is an interesting event now -- you're not just ticking off lost hit points every round; there is now a save system in place. Each round, you roll a savings throw (simply: 1-9 fails, 10-20 passes); three failures, and you're dead. We lost the ranger to that in the second to last fight, and got clobbered. Is it any damaging effect that requires a save, that can kill you if you fail 3 times?
#7 pneumatik Mar 04, 2008 21:19:21	Is it any damaging effect that requires a save, that can kill you if you fail 3 times? All saves are 1-9 fail; 10-20 success. Saves are used less often - any offensive actions that would normally require a save now require an attack roll against the appropriate defense, either AC, reflex, fortitude, or will. The last three are calculated like a cross between AC and 3.5 saves: 10 + relevant stat + appropriate bonuses. The save flip is referring to is only for dying. Three failures once you're unconscious means you die, as does going low enough in the negatives (-1/2 full hps, I think). flip: wow, small world. I know Teos reasonably well through Living Greyhawk. He'd know me best as the guy who played Dartan the Bitter.
#8 flip Mar 04, 2008 21:24:13	Is it any damaging effect that requires a save, that can kill you if you fail 3 times? No. So, damaging effects that used to require a save -- say, a fireball -- are now instead attacks against Reflex. The caster rolls the die. A savings throw is now something specifically different. The mecahnic is, roll a d20. 1-9, you fail, 10-20 you pass -- in some cases, on a 20 you pass dramatically well. There were two places I saw this used. The first, is when you're down and out. You roll a save. Fail three saves, and you die. Roll a 20, and you can spend a healing surge, and you're up on your feet again. 10-19, no change. There's no stabalizing. There's also no having to dig yourself out from under negative hp anymore. Someone heals you, you start with that many HP. Second place it was used is for continuing effects. Any effects that continue for multiple rounds -- say you get hit by an Acid Arrow. At the start of your next round, you'll take 5 points of acid damage. At the end of your round, you get to make savings throws to shake off continuing effects. Fail, and you'll take another 5 points next round. Succeed, and the effect is over. Dazed, sleep, the warlock's push, fear ... all seem to be "recovered" from via this mechanic.
#9 Jaysyn Mar 05, 2008 15:24:15	"Healing Surge"? That sounds really, really silly.
#10 lurking_shadow Mar 05, 2008 17:43:38	"Healing Surge"? That sounds really, really silly. I figure the "healing surge" is the D&D 4th equivalent to the "second wind" mechanic in the SW RPG Saga Ed, maybe? In Saga, HP is an even more abstract concept than in D&D, and doesn't necessarily represent one's physical hardiness at all. It's meant to reflect how much damage you are able to avoid, instead of how much damage you are able to take and still keep walking. Second wind is a game mechanic that lets characters recover 1/4 of their HP per day as a swift action, if they are down to half their maximum HP. Its purpose is to allow the PCs to fight several encounters in a roll before having to rest or go to a doctor. (Characters and items with healing abilities are much rarer is Star Wars.) Did i guess right? Lurking
#11 Pennarin Mar 05, 2008 21:06:35	In 4E's PHB will be defined what hit points are, and what healing consists of. The idea that one can close his wounds with an healing surge is silly, yes, until you get out of your head the idea that there needed to be wounds for you to heal: You heal hit points, not wounds. Wounds is the dressing a DM puts on top of the rules that describe loss of health during a fight. Wounds is what is left after the fight is over, after you've spent your character's ability to regain hit points. This was done in the 3E PHB as well, if you recall. People were wondering what DR was. Sounded silly to them. "The weapon just hits my skin and leaves no traces?!" 5. Healing gets an overhaul. Hit points still measure your ability to stay in the fight, but healing’s no longer just the burden of one character anymore. Each character has a certain number of healing surges. Once during each encounter, you can take a standard action called a second wind; this gives you a certain amount of hit points back equal to your healing surge value and gives you a +2 bonus to all your defenses until the start of your next turn. You then tick off one of your healing surges for the day. Some powers (like some cleric prayers) will also heal you your healing surge value, and you’ll tick off your healing surges for them as well. When you run out of healing surges, you’ll want to take an extended rest. If you’re outside of combat, you can take a short rest and tick off the healing surges you need to heal up damage. TIP: If you’ve been knocked down a few hit points and can’t decide what to do when it’s your turn, taking a second wind action is a good idea. 6. Short and extended rests. Resting’s now divided into two groups – short and extended. A short rest lasts 5 minutes, and is a long enough time for you to regain your encounter powers and use healing surges to heal up. An extended rest is akin to “camping” and lasts 6 hours. After an extended rest, you’re fully healed, you have a full compliment of healing surges, you have your daily powers back, and you reset your action points to 1. TIP: It’s good to take an extended rest when some members in the group are down to about 1 healing surge remaining, or everyone has used all their daily powers.
#12 brun01 Mar 06, 2008 6:40:00	Is it me, or is the enthusiasm with 4e fading with every new bit of info read about it?
#13 cnahumck Mar 06, 2008 7:46:11	It is fading, a little. Some of the things with regards to combat seem like the might be interesting, but I question whether it still feels like D+D. If I wanted to play Saga, I'd play Saga. Also, and I know that I am not informed as to all the rules, the character sheets I have seen don't make a whole lot of sense as far as spells and powers and whatnot. Again, maybe I don't have all the info. But, maybe I don't need it. We will see in a few months, I guess.
#14 phoenix_m Mar 06, 2008 9:21:28	Is it me, or is the enthusiasm with 4e fading with every new bit of info read about it? Fading... My enthusiasm for WotC left a long time ago, when I quit playing Star Wars thank you very much.
#15 greyorm Mar 06, 2008 14:37:51	In 4E's PHB will be defined what hit points are, and what healing consists of. The idea that one can close his wounds with an healing surge is silly, yes, until you get out of your head the idea that there needed to be wounds for you to heal: You heal hit points, not wounds. Wounds is the dressing a DM puts on top of the rules that describe loss of health during a fight. Wounds is what is left after the fight is over, after you've spent your character's ability to regain hit points. Wow. I developed and repeatedly explained across the interwebs this very idea for HPs how many years ago...let me see, oh right. Ten years ago when I wrote my homebrew "Nth Edition" ruleset for 2nd Edition AD&D. Maybe they thought I'd forget...though I guess since they ganked the sorcerer-class idea from me they thought they could get away with it. So where do I send to in WotC for my cut of the profits and design credits in the book? ;) :D (Obviously, I'm all for more recognition and use of the abstraction of HPs as an abstraction, rather than some weird physical measurement.)
#16 flip Mar 06, 2008 15:03:17	Indeed. hit points have been an abstract resembling something other than just physical damage for as long as I can remember ... At any rate, A healing surge is related to second wind. It also seems to, I think, measure the number of times per day you can be healed. Run out of surges, and that's it, gotta rest. (I think) Every time a cleric heals you, it's for your healing surge value + a die roll. Uses up one of your surges. A paladin's lay-on-hands abiltiy uses one of his healing surges to heal you. how many HP a surge heals varies based on class, I think. It could be based on HP; I havn't tried to derive the source of the values. A second wind is thus: Once per combat, as a standard action, you can "gain your second wind" -- you recover your healing surge amount, and gain a +2 defense bonus that lasts until your next turn. A heal check during combat allows you to use your second wind at some point that's not your turn. Fighters can use their second wind as a minor action. HP have always been an abstraction anyway, unless you're using a Wound/Vitality system -- in which case, you have HP and wounds. Can you tell me what part of your body is injured when you've lost 1/3 of your hitpoints? No? Not by the rules anyway, nor do you suffer penalties because you just got your arm sliced open. It's an abstract system, no different than it has been. I've got no problems with that. I like not having to burrow through charts in the middle of combat.
#17 greyorm Mar 06, 2008 22:22:58	I like not having to burrow through charts in the middle of combat. Gasp! Obviously you hate Rolemaster and freedom. Do you want the terrorists to win? :P
#18 cnahumck Mar 06, 2008 22:36:35	Only if I get to be one of them... You didn't sign up with the Veiled Alliance?
#19 Pennarin Mar 07, 2008 0:38:37	My daddy was a Wind Mage, and I fight the good fight.
#20 Zardnaar Mar 07, 2008 2:13:50	Fading... My enthusiasm for WotC left a long time ago, when I quit playing Star Wars thank you very much. Mine was when they ditched Dragon/Dungeon. The only incentive I have for getting 4th ed is so I can understand what everone on the boards is talking about. Maybe they can balence out high level and epic level play but I'm not holding my breath.