I used to LOVE Dark Sun but lost track after it was discontinued....
I recently read that somewhere...does anyone know what happened or even if it happened?! Is he good now or something?
I used to LOVE Dark Sun but lost track after it was discontinued....
He was starving himself so he wouldn't transorm. Hamanu is a bit different from the other Sorcerer Kings due to the way he was created.
In Rise and Fall of a Dragon King. he completes the transformation and becomes the Dragon of Urik. Alot of ppl don't treat Rise and Fall as canon as it wasn't mentioned in any other source materials but.
1. It is set in FY 15 which is set after all other source material
2. The product line was discontinued right after the novel came out.
I've ret conned it in. After FY 15 Hamanu is a full Dragon but he doesn't disappear for 1000 years like he did at the end of the novel (it was all in his head basically). Unless you're playing after Free Year 15 its irrelevent anyway or you can ignore the novel.
He was starving himself so he wouldn't transorm. Hamanu is a bit different from the other Sorcerer Kings due to the way he was created.
Which is definitely how I use it, I have him starving himself from just about everything, partially to "stick it to Rajaat", partially because he's absolutely afraid of what he may become.
In Rise and Fall of a Dragon King. he completes the transformation and becomes the Dragon of Urik. Alot of ppl don't treat Rise and Fall as canon as it wasn't mentioned in any other source materials but.
1. It is set in FY 15 which is set after all other source material
2. The product line was discontinued right after the novel came out.
I've ret conned it in. After FY 15 Hamanu is a full Dragon but he doesn't disappear for 1000 years like he did at the end of the novel (it was all in his head basically). Unless you're playing after Free Year 15 its irrelevent anyway or you can ignore the novel.
As much as I like Rise and Fall, I really dislike the idea of Hamanu becoming a full dragon, it just doesn't sit well with me. Mind you, I do like a lot of the ideas in Rise and Fall, and the other novels by Lynn Abbey. I think she captured the spirit of Dark Sun, and of Hamanu perfectly. I just feel that Hamanu's transformation at the end is out of place, almost haphazardly thrown in, and somewhat needlessly. It seems to, in a sense, try to "replace" Borys with Hamanu, it effectively destroys the character of Hamanu and replaces it with a full rampaging dragon, and I think it somewhat goes too far. It just doesn't "fit" for me.
So... even if UI played FY15, I'd not have Hamanu change into a full Dragon.
Which is definitely how I use it, I have him starving himself from just about everything, partially to "stick it to Rajaat", partially because he's absolutely afraid of what he may become.
As much as I like Rise and Fall, I really dislike the idea of Hamanu becoming a full dragon, it just doesn't sit well with me. Mind you, I do like a lot of the ideas in Rise and Fall, and the other novels by Lynn Abbey. I think she captured the spirit of Dark Sun, and of Hamanu perfectly. I just feel that Hamanu's transformation at the end is out of place, almost haphazardly thrown in, and somewhat needlessly. It seems to, in a sense, try to "replace" Borys with Hamanu, it effectively destroys the character of Hamanu and replaces it with a full rampaging dragon, and I think it somewhat goes too far. It just doesn't "fit" for me.
So... even if UI played FY15, I'd not have Hamanu change into a full Dragon.
I always liked Hamanu...he seems to have more character than the other sorcerer kings...I read that novel but forgot about it...I guess I didn't think it was that great...;)
The Prism Pentad however was AWESOME...!
As much as I like Rise and Fall, I really dislike the idea of Hamanu becoming a full dragon, it just doesn't sit well with me. Mind you, I do like a lot of the ideas in Rise and Fall, and the other novels by Lynn Abbey. I think she captured the spirit of Dark Sun, and of Hamanu perfectly. I just feel that Hamanu's transformation at the end is out of place, almost haphazardly thrown in, and somewhat needlessly. It seems to, in a sense, try to "replace" Borys with Hamanu, it effectively destroys the character of Hamanu and replaces it with a full rampaging dragon, and I think it somewhat goes too far. It just doesn't "fit" for me.
So... even if UI played FY15, I'd not have Hamanu change into a full Dragon.
It seems out of place to me as well. He spends so much effort to stop his change into a dragon, only to become a dragon... with an implied blessing from druidic powers that don't like defilers.
The way I see it, you can run it one of two ways:
1) Retcon it so he spends 1000 years (or an appropriate time-frame) becoming the/an Avangeon of Athas. It always seemed odd to me that, given his reflection that the dragon transformation served Rajaat's will, that he wouldn't search for a Preserver alternative, especially since he has the ability to peek into the minds of everyone in his city. One would expect that he'd get at least a subtle clue from someone that would lead him Oronis eventually.
2) Turn him into a dragon, but portray him as neutral or even good, in something of an anti-hero/fallen villain. He limits his defiling, but there are ways around harming the environment through defiling (such as groves of trees of life), and with the help of the Veiled Alliance or Royal Preservers, could easily maintain many such trees. This strikes me as a bit more in the flavor of Dark Sun, which was always a grittier setting; Hamanu can't escape his fate, but maybe he can bend into something that will benefit Athas in the long run.
No, he's hardly Avangion material in my books. I like to keep the remaining SK's ias a bit too paranoid about what the metamorphosis will cause/do, to really take forward steps, that definitely includes Hamanu. So, no. I keep him how he is, not fully-transformed, and the Avangion process would be too foreign to his nature. remember that Oronis has a TON of guilt from everything he's caused and done. Hamanu doesn't have any guilt, he doesn't have any excuses for his actions. He merely sees himself as having made "tough choices".
I hardly see Hamanu as "good". He makes far too many excuses for his actions in everything that portrays him. He may seehimself as a tragic hero, but a lot of villians do that. He has too much of a ruthless side to him to be "good" in my books. His own opinion of himself might be he doesn't think of himself as "that bad", but that doesn't excuse the actions he's done.
No, he's hardly Avangion material in my books. I like to keep the remaining SK's ias a bit too paranoid about what the metamorphosis will cause/do, to really take forward steps, that definitely includes Hamanu. So, no. I keep him how he is, not fully-transformed, and the Avangion process would be too foreign to his nature. remember that Oronis has a TON of guilt from everything he's caused and done. Hamanu doesn't have any guilt, he doesn't have any excuses for his actions. He merely sees himself as having made "tough choices".
I like the possability of evil Avangions and IIRC theres nothing stopping one mechanically. Save the world then conquer it mentality. Not saying Hamanu is likely to become one. While not exactly blessed by the Druids they're not fanatics and its likely they're realistic enough to realise that Hamanu is easier to work with than the rest of the SKs. In regards to Hamanu trasnformation at the end of RaFoaDK heres how I would deal with it.
1. Ignore it. Doesn't matter unless your game is set after FY 15.
2. Have Hamanu be absent for 1000 years (my game is set in FY 1015 for a reason....)
3. Have the 1000 years all be in Hamanus head. My current game has the Dragon of Urik in it. Hamanu still rules Urik and the current Dragon is different than Borys.
I like the possability of evil Avangions and IIRC theres nothing stopping one mechanically. Save the world then conquer it mentality. Not saying Hamanu is likely to become one. While not exactly blessed by the Druids they're not fanatics and its likely they're realistic enough to realise that Hamanu is easier to work with than the rest of the SKs.
I don't like the idea of evil Avangions. Flavor/setting-wise, I don't think it meshes well with how I see an Avangion. I could *possibly* see a neutral one, just I have a hard time imagining an evil one. That said, druids have nothing to do with the Avangion process -- Hamanu's being blessed or not bears no relevance to it. I see Hamanu as more "lawful" than "evil", but he is still lawful evil. He inflicts very harsh penalties on a whim when people break his laws.
In regards to Hamanu trasnformation at the end of RaFoaDK heres how I would deal with it.
1. Ignore it. Doesn't matter unless your game is set after FY 15.
2. Have Hamanu be absent for 1000 years (my game is set in FY 1015 for a reason....)
3. Have the 1000 years all be in Hamanus head. My current game has the Dragon of Urik in it. Hamanu still rules Urik and the current Dragon is different than Borys.
I'll go with 1. Ignore it. Even if I go past FY15, I still ignore it, because quite honestly, I don't think it fits anything. It does nothing for the storyline, it just muddies things up more. I can see the value of the other SK's being killed in the Prism Pentad, but what happens with Hamanu isn't tragic, it is needless and unnecessary. There is more than enough things going on with Athas to have to bother with the notion of Hamanu being pulled out of the setting as a full-fledged Dragon.
Talking about evil I have to go to work
IIRC Avangions don't have an alignment restriction so in theory you could have a evil one. Other worlds wizards are in effect preservers and they have plenty of evil ones. Preservers good defilers evil is a bit simplistic. I prefer defilers evil (or non good), preservers anything.
Talking about evil I have to go to work
I think you are straw-manning my position on this a bit, or at least, you are making an assumption based on what I said, possibly because I didn't feel the need to clarify at the time so I didn't.
Like you, I prefer defilers as non-good, and preservers anything. However, the difference is that when it comes to dragons and avangions, which I see as the "next stage" for either preserving and defiling, I see dragons as evil, while avangions as non-evil. Now, this is more or less the unspoken house rule I have in my Dark Sun campaigns, but basically I think that fundamentally, defiling is a corrupting influence on an individual -- which is why I don't like "good" defilers. And dragons are the pen-ultimate versions of defilers, becoming absolutely corrupted. Now, preserver magic, in my book, takes self-control and restraint. The avangion is the pen-ultimate example of that... and I feel that at that point, an evil-aligned person could no longer remain evil-aligned as that person progresses through the avangion metamorphosis.
So no, it isn't "defilers bad, preservers good" oversimplification. It is a rule of thumb I have taken after my own observation of the dynamics between the two groups. I honestly think that Hamanu would have to go through a major personality shift for him to ever be taken as a candidate for avangionhood... it just doesn't fit at all with me.
They are druids and preservers, but evil to the core.
For me, I think that the farther one progresses as a Avangion the more likely they are to become good. Just as a Dragon would become evil. Their new nature leads them to it.
For me, I think that the farther one progresses as a Avangion the more likely they are to become good. Just as a Dragon would become evil. Their new nature leads them to it.
Exactly.
I think you are straw-manning my position on this a bit, or at least, you are making an assumption based on what I said, possibly because I didn't feel the need to clarify at the time so I didn't.
Like you, I prefer defilers as non-good, and preservers anything. However, the difference is that when it comes to dragons and avangions, which I see as the "next stage" for either preserving and defiling, I see dragons as evil, while avangions as non-evil. Now, this is more or less the unspoken house rule I have in my Dark Sun campaigns, but basically I think that fundamentally, defiling is a corrupting influence on an individual -- which is why I don't like "good" defilers. And dragons are the pen-ultimate versions of defilers, becoming absolutely corrupted. Now, preserver magic, in my book, takes self-control and restraint. The avangion is the pen-ultimate example of that... and I feel that at that point, an evil-aligned person could no longer remain evil-aligned as that person progresses through the avangion metamorphosis.
So no, it isn't "defilers bad, preservers good" oversimplification. It is a rule of thumb I have taken after my own observation of the dynamics between the two groups. I honestly think that Hamanu would have to go through a major personality shift for him to ever be taken as a candidate for avangionhood... it just doesn't fit at all with me.
I agree Hamanu isn't a candidate for an Avangion. I could almost see Lalali-Puy becoming an evil one. I don't think an Avangion is likely to be evil but the possability should remain open. To me an Avangion is more about being a powerful Psion/Preserver bent on restoring Athas than being good aligned.
Clearer now
?Does anyone else see Hamanu's alignment moving during the course of his evolution?
Although I'd never call him good, he does show some very neutral tendencies during the three novels.
.
Quick question on Hamanu's alignment.
Does anyone else see Hamanu's alignment moving during the course of his evolution?
Although I'd never call him good, he does show some very neutral tendencies during the three novels.
.
I've seen him as decidedly more "Lawful" than "Evil". Basically, he has a very strict adherence to the law... and he has a ton of laws. He just is very heavy-handed in the enforcement and punishments for those laws.
I could almost see Lalali-Puy becoming an evil one.
IMHO, she's too arrogant and vain for that plus she's got all those trees of life to protect her forest... why bother. Still, in the future, who knows.
IMHO, she's too arrogant and vain for that plus she's got all those trees of life to protect her forest... why bother. Still, in the future, who knows.
My campaign is in FY 1015:P. She is an evil Avangion by then.
Of course, a lot of the groups, like the Veiled Alliance, or the aarakoa (sp?) are not trusting her any further than they can throw her.
But no, like Hamanu, she's far from a candidate of being an Avangion in my book. She might try the facade of appearing like she is, but it is insincere. She's had a couple thousand years to practice the art of deception though, and has done a real good job at indoctrinating a lot of the Gulgans into thinking of her as their Oba.
Lalai-Puy is another one I just can't imagine even remotely being interested in being an Avangion. I see her as sort of a master manipulator, she's playing people, nothing more. Her "bid for power" is to attempt to pull resources her "peers" don't use... by trying to convince people she's not like Hamanu or Nibenay. She's not a defiler, she's the Forest Goddess... out to save the forest and trees. People just need to believe her, and she makes a very convincing argument. But she's quite honestly no more interested in the welfare of Athas than any of the other dragon-kings. She's interested in securing her own power, and rather than pulling from the same resources her peers use, she's trying to attract preservers, druids, clerics, anyone she can.I've pictured her as a telepath psion... one that knows how to charm, seduce, and use any of her bag of tricks to get people to follow her.
Of course, a lot of the groups, like the Veiled Alliance, or the aarakoa (sp?) are not trusting her any further than they can throw her.
But no, like Hamanu, she's far from a candidate of being an Avangion in my book. She might try the facade of appearing like she is, but it is insincere. She's had a couple thousand years to practice the art of deception though, and has done a real good job at indoctrinating a lot of the Gulgans into thinking of her as their Oba.
As we stat the SK's, the Oba will have some Thrallherd levels. Undying affection to the max.
Lalali-Puy: stage III dragon defiler 5/telepath 6/arch defiler 5/thrallherd 4/cerebremancer 5/Athasian dragon 2
Lalai-Puy is another one I just can't imagine even remotely being interested in being an Avangion. I see her as sort of a master manipulator, she's playing people, nothing more. Her "bid for power" is to attempt to pull resources her "peers" don't use... by trying to convince people she's not like Hamanu or Nibenay. She's not a defiler, she's the Forest Goddess... out to save the forest and trees. People just need to believe her, and she makes a very convincing argument. But she's quite honestly no more interested in the welfare of Athas than any of the other dragon-kings. She's interested in securing her own power, and rather than pulling from the same resources her peers use, she's trying to attract preservers, druids, clerics, anyone she can.I've pictured her as a telepath psion... one that knows how to charm, seduce, and use any of her bag of tricks to get people to follow her.
Of course, a lot of the groups, like the Veiled Alliance, or the aarakoa (sp?) are not trusting her any further than they can throw her.
But no, like Hamanu, she's far from a candidate of being an Avangion in my book. She might try the facade of appearing like she is, but it is insincere. She's had a couple thousand years to practice the art of deception though, and has done a real good job at indoctrinating a lot of the Gulgans into thinking of her as their Oba.
Sorry perhaps some more detail. In one of my previous games one of the PCs was a Templar of Lalali-Puy who ended up defecting to Oronis. I ran a varient of the Forest Maker adventure where it was Lalali-Puy who was the nemesis of that game and where the PCs first encountered an "Avangion". it was also their first hint the SKs were dragons. They never figured out Oronis was an Avangion and barely know of Kurns existence (as gamers not PCS).
Anyway they refer to Avangions as "one of those butterfly things" and in my FY 1015 games when they learn't that Sadira was a Sorcerer Queen on of them exclaimed" Oh no she now has become all sorts of badness" assuming she was now a Dragon. I like muddying the water so the PCs don't really know whats going on although they have kernals of truth and some of them have skimmed through Dragon Kings.
In the 2nd ed source material Lalali-Puy was always portrayed as one of the nicer Sorcerer Kings. At the end of the Prism Pentad she was one of the ones wondering about a new way of doing things. Even if she is pretending its still better for Athas and nicer for the POCs as she semi tolerates preservers and alone amoung the SK's has Druids serving her (apart from Oronis).
I made her an Avangion in my FY 1015 game so PCs couldn't assume Avangion=good and I'm also getting rid of the assumption Sorcerer King= Dragon as Sadira is one (Wiz 10/Sun Wizard 20). Lalali-Puy become an Avangion as its an unlimited form of power as it doesn't defile. She is still LE but is at least approachable as far as SK's go. One of the rasons the champion rebeled against Rajaat was that the planet was getting worse not better like he promised. Most of the champions I think don't really see themselves as evil. They're evil because they're selfish defilers they're not championing evil in the traditional D&D sense. They're basically to amoral.
I like lotsa shades of grey in my games and even evil characters would have goals that drive them or can be anti heroes. Heres a thread I wrote a few years back in Redgars Repository.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=395862
If Oronis stopped the change (into a dragon) and even reversed it ...... could Hamanu ?
Before you all say it - yes I know he's kinda put it on hold by starving himself but has he really stopped it ?
Would Oronis know that Hamanu was trying to stop ?
(I think he probably would)
Would Oronis be inclined to leak the information on how he managed to stop the transformation ?
Or did he also go through a period of starvation ?
Would Oronis even help Hamanu ?
If he did stop it (and in the process "stick it to Rajaat") what would he become ?
A new type of SK ? neither dragon nor avangion (def not avangion!)
Is there a new type of AB on the horizon ??? (there is in my head :P )
Here's some "what ifs" and "potentials" for you ......
If Oronis stopped the change (into a dragon) and even reversed it ...... could Hamanu ?
Before you all say it - yes I know he's kinda put it on hold by starving himself but has he really stopped it ?
Would Oronis know that Hamanu was trying to stop ?
(I think he probably would)
Would Oronis be inclined to leak the information on how he managed to stop the transformation ?
Or did he also go through a period of starvation ?
Would Oronis even help Hamanu ?
If he did stop it (and in the process "stick it to Rajaat") what would he become ?
A new type of SK ? neither dragon nor avangion (def not avangion!)
Is there a new type of AB on the horizon ??? (there is in my head :P )
My impression was Hamanu wanted to be more or less a normal human again (immortal though with higher ability scores)
As we stat the SK's, the Oba will have some Thrallherd levels. Undying affection to the max.
Lalali-Puy: stage III dragon defiler 5/telepath 6/arch defiler 5/thrallherd 4/cerebremancer 5/Athasian dragon 2
When my PCs met her in the Asticlian Gambit recently, I gave Lalali-Puy an Aaracokra thrall... sort of a diplomat to try and better the relations between the bird-people and Gulg's mistress (as she always looks for ways to better her army... like her failed attempt to get halflings to join).
Plus, as a Champion, she could make it so that all her thralls were her hunted race, as well as all her believers. They can't help but come to her and be destroyed.
I figure thrallherd is an awesome class for a dragon to have. always able to gather recruits that worship and adore you. sacrifice them and more will come. Make sure you take the Distance Raze feat to control where your Dragon Magic will draw energy from (no reason to always kill everyone) and you are set.
Plus, as a Champion, she could make it so that all her thralls were her hunted race, as well as all her believers. They can't help but come to her and be destroyed.
Thrallherd is kinda an awful class. Why not just progress a full spellcasting and/or manifesting class and dominate stuff the old fashioned way?
Plus, you can keep all the magic items that they bring.
Are you fighting in a war? Cool! Instant soldiers! Or better yet, in a siege, as you throw your minons at the walls, you gather new recruits. Just specify something that you know to be in the city, and you have an instant infiltration. Nothing like 100 level one fighters, mages, clerics and rogues inside the city walls organizing a breach by your mental command.
The class is awesome. One of the best. You just have to understand how to use it to it's full effect.
And nothing says you can't also go the normal route of dominating others through magic, psionics, and might on top of your thrallherd ability.
Plus at epic levels, ML matters less than Skill points for Epic Powers.
Thrallherd is an awesome class because it allows you to have instant, loyal minons that respawn after 24 hours. If you are a Dragon, with a Leadership score of 30 (Which is relatively low), you have 496 respawning HD worth of followers. They will do whatever you say. Don't need to feed them or anything. And, since you can decide their race, class and alignment... You can get even more. Want a group of elven herdsmen? Great! Your thrall will most likely be the chief. Enough of the tribe will be controlled that the rest will be there, and then you have all their animals as well. That should get you over 1000 HD worth of spell components for you metamorphisis!
Plus, you can keep all the magic items that they bring.
Are you fighting in a war? Cool! Instant soldiers! Or better yet, in a siege, as you throw your minons at the walls, you gather new recruits. Just specify something that you know to be in the city, and you have an instant infiltration. Nothing like 100 level one fighters, mages, clerics and rogues inside the city walls organizing a breach by your mental command.
The class is awesome. One of the best. You just have to understand how to use it to it's full effect.
And nothing says you can't also go the normal route of dominating others through magic, psionics, and might on top of your thrallherd ability.
Plus at epic levels, ML matters less than Skill points for Epic Powers.
I'm not a fan of PrCs for spellcasters/psions that don't have full progression for caster/manifester level. Put it this way if you were a PC Psion would you take levels in Thrallherd?
I'm not a fan of PrCs for spellcasters/psions that don't have full progression for caster/manifester level. Put it this way if you were a PC Psion would you take levels in Thrallherd?
I would. If I ever got to play a game, rather than run them, that is probably the route I would go. Until my DM got peeved and killed me. It only looses 2 ML, which is fine, and not that big of a loss. Grab the Overchannel and Talented feats and you can make up for some of this. And, maxing out ranks in Knowledge psionics and psicraft will more than make up for the minor loss in Epic levels.
I agree Hamanu isn't a candidate for an Avangion. I could almost see Lalali-Puy becoming an evil one. I don't think an Avangion is likely to be evil but the possability should remain open. To me an Avangion is more about being a powerful Psion/Preserver bent on restoring Athas than being good aligned.
Clearer now
The Oba could be like Poison Ivy from Batman
The Oba could be like Poison Ivy from Batman
Not familar with the comparison. An evil Avangion to me would probably focus on restoring Athas regardless of the cost or use dubious methods. Anything apart from defiling goes.
I hardly see Hamanu as "good". He makes far too many excuses for his actions in everything that portrays him. He may seehimself as a tragic hero, but a lot of villians do that. He has too much of a ruthless side to him to be "good" in my books. His own opinion of himself might be he doesn't think of himself as "that bad", but that doesn't excuse the actions he's done.
No, he's hardly Avangion material in my books. I like to keep the remaining SK's ias a bit too paranoid about what the metamorphosis will cause/do, to really take forward steps, that definitely includes Hamanu. So, no. I keep him how he is, not fully-transformed, and the Avangion process would be too foreign to his nature. remember that Oronis has a TON of guilt from everything he's caused and done. Hamanu doesn't have any guilt, he doesn't have any excuses for his actions. He merely sees himself as having made "tough choices".
Good doesn't fit, but Hamanu could easily be neutral. He opposes Rajaat, stopped his dragon transformation, regrets, at least on some level, what he did during the Cleansing Wars (not to the same extent of Oronis, but the book demonstrated, at least to me, that if he was faced with the same choice again he wouldn't go through with it), but doesn't have problems accepting what he sees as necessary evils, like slavery or some corruption in his Templars, but that doesn't necessarily make him evil (though certainly not good). He does demonstrate a capacity for compassion by offering the noble who betrayed the city a chance for mercy.
Alignment isn't an issue, either; defilers can be neutral, and even a dragon in this circumstance (starves himself of life energy, doesn't practice dragon magic, etc), preservers can be evil, and there's nothing stopping an evil preserver from becoming an Avangion, much less a neutral one. The only question I see is if Hamanu opposes what he has become and what he did enough to take the chance, which isn't necessarily clear cut.
EDIT: A median point of no return, IMO, would be a 5th stage dragon. At this point, the dragon simply can not become an Avangion, and so would be fully devoted to becoming the penultimate defiler, and thus, evil. However, the chance for redemption exists before that, and at least according to 2nd ed stats (There aren't 3.5 stats for the individual sorcerer kings on Athas.org IIRC) Hamanu is a 3rd stage dragon.
EDIT: Dark Sun portrays defilers as bad guys and preservers as good guys, so I certainly see where you're coming from. I don't agree with portraying Avangions as absolutely good simply because there's nothing in the condition that leads me to believe that it would be the case. Avangions are good because Oronis is good and there have been a grand total of 2 others, who died, and were preservers from the Veiled Alliance, which is typically a good organization. There's nothing inherently good about preserving, any more than there's anything inherently good about psionics. Defiling is tainted because it destroys life and the world around you, which is a selfish act any way you cut it. Preserving is gathering power to do what you want through a specific process, which isn't really different than psionics or divine magic.
It's actually relatively easy to see how a selfish individual could become an Avangion in the current climate. Preservers have a support network and can hide their magic much more easily than defilers. A neutral or evil psion/preserver with the right skills and the feat that lets them disguise magic and psionics would have a significant edge over any defilers at hiding among the populace, since you already have a source of extraordinary power. Such an individual would be a more social creature and dislike personal violence, but that's similar to templar-esk character: power hungry, civilized, wearing the velvet glove with a dagger behind his back.
Upon reaching the point where he/she could become an Avangion, there are many benefits that any evil character would desire: immortality, psionic enchantments, the ability to recreate life, godhood. The Oba could have walked this path if she didn't become a defiler first, IMO (though she wouldn't change now in all likelyhood, but I don't know much about her character). Build a city as it's god, keep it verdent and plentiful with own internal energies, and only allow Preservers who serve you to exist in the city, or be registered, etc. Avangions start as people, and a self-ish, manipulative force for renewal on Athas is certainly possible if you started your career that way. An Avangion could easily start a corrupt theocracy with the sorts of power they wield, and they wouldn't have to worry about the welfare of their city state when using magic.
Not familar with the comparison. An evil Avangion to me would probably focus on restoring Athas regardless of the cost or use dubious methods. Anything apart from defiling goes.
She was an eco-terrorist who loved plants and despised mammels and anyone who cut down forests or dug up plants. If you have Preservers and Defilers, the prestige class of "Earth Defender" would apply to her.
But just because someone is evil does not mean they do not apprecuiate the beauty of nature, I could see a lot of preservers on Athas loving nature and wanting to preserve it, but having no problem killing or enslaving those who would defile the world.
She was an eco-terrorist who loved plants and despised mammels and anyone who cut down forests or dug up plants. If you have Preservers and Defilers, the prestige class of "Earth Defender" would apply to her.
Not my favorite movie... I also don't think the Oba truly "loves" nature, she merely makes it look that way, but hey, that's my opinion.But just because someone is evil does not mean they do not apprecuiate the beauty of nature, I could see a lot of preservers on Athas loving nature and wanting to preserve it, but having no problem killing or enslaving those who would defile the world.
... and any innocent bystander that happens to be there. I remember my old 2ed homebrew world campaign with the Neutral Evil druid circle that hunted humans and set somewhat innocent villages afire... what glee!
... and any innocent bystander that happens to be there. I remember my old 2ed homebrew world campaign with the Neutral Evil druid circle that hunted humans and set somewhat innocent villages afire... what glee!
The 2nd ed Druids handbook had a Druidic sect known as the Shadow Circle who acted like that. Probably the best 2nd ed class handbook as well (most were awful)
The 2nd ed Druids handbook had a Druidic sect known as the Shadow Circle who acted like that. Probably the best 2nd ed class handbook as well (most were awful)
You got that right! :D
Here's how I see alignment in the various shades of Gray in a Dark Sun setting. There are no shades of gray. Evil is evil regardless of circumstances. Destroying the planet is an evil action, thus each time a defiler burns the surface of living creatures he commits an evil act. As defilers commit evil acts by their very nature then to remain a defiler is to accept oneself as evil. This is why we see Oronis of Kurn leave defiling behind altogether, now he can be free to choose a life of neutrality or goodness. Once he began on the road to Avangion that decision was made. An Avangion makes personal sacrifices to champion the cause of restoration. Replenishing Athas is a requisite part of the path of Avangion and is required to progress down that path. Just as burning the planet is evil, restoring it is a good act.
The Oba does not replenish, she jealously guards the resources she has. Hamanu is not committing a good act by 'sticking it to Rajaat', evil fighting evil is not inherantly good. Besides, if you look at evil individuals or organizations you can clearly see that evil does not get along with each other well. Even the biblical Satan and his demons have this problem.
Now for the area of neutrality. Preservers and defilers do not work on the extremes that Dragons and Avangions do. Each act must be individually looked at and judged. I believe many preservers are neutral, a few are evil (though it is a quick path to defiling), and a small minority of defilers are neutral (and these often become preservers or slide back to evil as they *must* defile more).
Morality and the taint of evil are a slippery slope. I attempt to stay away from 'relativity' when it comes to alignment when at all possible. This draws a hard line in my DS games, but isn't that appropriate to the setting. The world is harsh, let us not make apologies for it.
My $0.02,
-Jason