I know we are all commited to the gothic fantasy of ravenloft and any attempt to change that would be a blasphemy so great that the offender would no doubt be Ravenlofts newest inhabitant.
However if we take the principles of Ravenloft and what it is at its core i.e a prison for the most powerful and dangerous beings of the multiverse, and apply that to the rest of the demiplane of dread, you come to see that Ravenloft is one of many worlds in a universe of mists.
My idea is this.
The entire universe that Ravenloft exists in, is a prison.
It has many other worlds that exist in Ravenlofts skies, and these too hold beings that are too powerful and too dangerous to allowed to roam free in the multiverse.
The galaxy of mists, can hold other worlds like Ravenloft, ancient kingdoms and empires cut from their native planes and seperated by the mists, but it can also hold whole worlds, perhaps inprisoning whole races, these worlds are also cut off from the rest by mysterious clouds of dark mist.
Ravenloft holds worlds of magic, worlds like earth during the middle ages, and older still, worlds of myth and sorcery, but on the other worlds...
The galaxy of mists is as varied as Ravenloft, highly technological cultures, primeval and savage worlds still in the grips of a stone age, worlds that were once part of Starfaring empires.
Does evil only exist in ancient worlds of magic?
What of the advanced and imperious reptilian race (and its ruler) that hunted to extermination its peaceful sentient neighbors?
What about the technophilic army of the Transnet imperative and its sentient rogue AI leader, who force all sentient species they encounter to undergo extreme cybernetic conversion or face death?
What about the empire that destroyed an entire planet to make an example of how the Empire deals with rebel scum?
Or the advanced culture that created a weopon of mass destruction (for self defence) that is so powerful that even its energy core corrupts the planet and kills anything anywhere near it, yet its arrogant ruling counsil refuse to dismantle it?
Or the alien fanatical crusade whose living prophet orders whole worlds put to the torch if they refuse to convert to their bizzare religion.
Whats your opinion people?
the galaxy of mists, Ravenloft on a galactic scale, darklords of whole planets.
Gothic Fantasy is wonderful, do you think that there could be such a thing as a good gothic sci-fi?
Im pretty new too, but I think I have some idea's in how this post could both work and fail in some light.
Now gothic horror as a writting style is vague in its label. Gothic is a style of architecture, a fashion choice, and somewhat discriptive of dark and old or archaic in origin. Gothic horror, as it is used in fiction, is to be associated with evil and monsterous thing's. Some magical and others scientific but not within the norm, so that forced hero's and villain's alike must make hard decisions in opposing and taking responsability for righting these wrongs or escaping dire fates. Even those that did what was right were often anti hero's or they were innocents who had to face the truth of the world in short burst's of horrific and tragic drama with courage and faith. More modernly this encompassed the view of the unknowable horror or thing beyond mortal comprenshion that added a layer of mystery to the the genere. As well it added the readers desire to know what lies on these paths man was never meant to walk.
Now in fantasy most of the previous is easiliy accepted with some slight provision's that can adapt. 1st is that fantasy already accepts that something's may be beyond comprehension but not impossible as we percieve in reality. This basicly implies that when mixed with gothic that fantasy magic and monsters become rare and a very dangerous and mysterious things. 2nd is that usually the forces of good and evil are battling on some scale or another. With the second it is important to note that epic gothic horror fantasy is must relate to the decision's and action's of the players affecting the world if even in a small way. If a war is there the battles of this conflict must not make such mysterious thing's become beyond the realm of personal observation and questioning to where they become simple decisons of where to send things and the world joins with them. These are things that not every person can handel as much of community is about fitting in and bringing these thing's into the light must be done carefully in almost every case. 3rd is possibly the hardest but most rewarding if done right, and it is that the hero's are the underdog and while they may defeat or escape the evil they realise that they were blissfully ignorent once and forever must occasionally look for it again for when it is least expected it may pounce.
Now finally with that said... What will and will not work within the bounds of a Sci-Fi setting in a gothic atmosphere. I compare it with the above examples for problem's of such. 1st is the elderich and unknowable are very hard to get across effectivly when as modern view's dictate that scientific methodology and logic can explain much of what would be considered the "Magic" or technology the players use. A mage who claim's to drawforth fire from the spirit's or a wellspring begs one to wonder on the motive's of these spirit's or the nature of this hard to even begin to define wellspring causing questions of trust in both the mage and his source of power. On the other hand a scientist who invents a death ray can explain to those how he did such and how it work's as he has proven and while one may not understand all of the principals involved with the weapon an observer will accept it as reality. Not only that but if something can be produced, most people of average intelligence can within reason learn to use it thus giving the secret of his power away completely. A mage had to suffer for his spell's just as much as the scientist but there was something special about the mage that made him able to achieve that. Thus the trouble of Sci-Fi comes from the imbalance of power and ability to obtain it with little effort. 2nd point is still valid in the Sci-Fi as much as it is in the fantasy but it is less likely to be effective. Epic conflict's are not far off affairs that will have sudden problems for civilization. The information flows across distance in hour's if not second's and the government's are mostly prepared and have alternate sources. People usually have broader mind's and can rationalise the thing's they see as alien's or scientific phenomina with little more than fear of injury and not horror as they believe it may be explained. 3rd is that while in a gothic fantasy atmosphere a creature may only be killed with a silver weapon or a vampire may be held off by faith these thing's are a measure of a person showing thier true power when they are overmatched. Now the players in a Sci-Fi setting will have similar situations but they are less measures of faith or discovering lost lore as in discovering new facts about the creatures. Also millitary despots may have access in such high technology setting's to nuclear weapons or things even more devastating that if he becomes annoyed enough may resort to acceptable losses. Now he may refrain depending on the villain but even still the players now must deal with social connections and manuvering not as a way to just discover weaknesses but as a main weakness. This in such high population's often leads to epic rebellion type game's but seldom is the villain defeated and then feared afterward with the entire world on the characters side.
So you can do one of two things to fix these problems and neither seem's viable for long. The 1st is to make some things beyond comprehension and reintroduce magic but that is hard and it can bring balance issues on how it affect's technology and how much is known if it has survived to this day. This often lead's to an ebberon setting but the contrast need's to exist on some level or thing's become to easily explainable. 2nd and even harder is to give high technology unknown glitches and side effect's that are not explainable. But this raises the question of why they can be accessed by the players if they obviously need more development and it smacks of a cheap cop out.
Perhaps Im wrong and someone will prove such but that is just what I got from my own musings. I may comment or change my mind later if good arguements arise on this thread and I hope you enjoy my post for now.
Sincerely Cap-G
Now gothic horror as a writting style is vague in its label. Gothic is a style of architecture, a fashion choice, and somewhat discriptive of dark and old or archaic in origin. Gothic horror, as it is used in fiction, is to be associated with evil and monsterous thing's. Some magical and others scientific but not within the norm
I was thinking more in terms of gothic as an aesthetic, dark and brooding, as opposed to literary style, although I see no reason why architectural style has no place (after all not all sci-fi is gleaming metal skyscrapers and hover cars, warhammer 40k is frequently described as gothic Sci-fi).
so that forced hero's and villain's alike must make hard decisions in opposing and taking responsability for righting these wrongs or escaping dire fates
I take your point however the brooding antihero, who must decide if in order to hunt monsters he is prepared to become one, has been done rather successfully by such sci-fi as Bladerunner, Dune.
More modernly this encompassed the view of the unknowable horror or thing beyond mortal comprenshion that added a layer of mystery to the the genere. As well it added the readers desire to know what lies on these paths man was never meant to walk.
I would disagree here, what you describe has more Lovecraftian overtones, yet if you take the novel Dracula there is very little of that style in the book, in fact Dracula as a character comes across more a knowable understandable being (as Van Helsing does and is able to second guess and reason as the vampire reasons).
1st is that fantasy already accepts that something's may be beyond comprehension but not impossible as we percieve in reality. This basicly implies that when mixed with gothic that fantasy magic and monsters become rare and a very dangerous and mysterious things.
I am afarid I would have to disagree here as well, in my opinion the only difference between a fantasy setting and any historical setting is that fantasy setting works to a different set of physics, and sometimes biological principles, there is nothing special about the ogre or the dragon and both are believable beings (most creatures in Fantasy come from myth, and myth was often accepted as fact at one time or another).
And as for Magic! it is still very much alive in the 21st century, despite all human scientiic understanding, people still believe and practice magic, the only real difference between the real world and the world of fantasy, is that in fantasy the magic works, and the creatures exist, but on an emotional level, the fear of the monsters, the power of the magic, was exactly the same.
2nd is that usually the forces of good and evil are battling on some scale or another. With the second it is important to note that epic gothic horror fantasy is must relate to the decision's and action's of the players affecting the world if even in a small way. If a war is there the battles of this conflict must not make such mysterious thing's become beyond the realm of personal observation and questioning to where they become simple decisons of where to send things and the world joins with them.
I fail to see how Science fiction is unable to do this, remeber this would still be ravenloft and as such each domain would be seperated from every other domain, so as far as the epic being observable, that is certainly not a problem.
As for the players being able to affect the world even in a minor way, I feel sure that many Star Wars players will tell you this certainly possible, the problem is not with science fiction as a genre but in the inventiveness of the DM.
3rd is possibly the hardest but most rewarding if done right, and it is that the hero's are the underdog and while they may defeat or escape the evil they realise that they were blissfully ignorent once and forever must occasionally look for it again for when it is least expected it may pounce.
Again I dont see this factor as being monopolised by fantasy, if you look at any non space opera sci-fi like the Matrix (to a lesser extent), Dune, Shadowrun, even settings like 1984, you have the underdog facing megalithic enemies, that in many cases can never be defeated, merely avoided, only to have them resurface and be terrible than before.
I suspect what you imply here is that tension cannot be created and sustained as easily in a sci-fi setting, but again i feel that is a DM issue.
What will and will not work within the bounds of a Sci-Fi setting in a gothic atmosphere. I compare it with the above examples for problem's of such. 1st is the elderich and unknowable are very hard to get across effectivly when as modern view's dictate that scientific methodology and logic can explain much of what would be considered the "Magic" or technology the players use. A mage who claim's to drawforth fire from the spirit's or a wellspring begs one to wonder on the motive's of these spirit's or the nature of this hard to even begin to define wellspring causing questions of trust in both the mage and his source of power. On the other hand a scientist who invents a death ray can explain to those how he did such and how it work's as he has proven and while one may not understand all of the principals involved with the weapon an observer will accept it as reality.
Hmmmm, again I am not sure I agree.
Magic is only unknowable to the non practitioner, the sorcerer, the occultist, understands only too well the laws and powers invoked with magic, magic is not random and follows laws as real to the wizard as any laws of physics or chemistry.
The scientific method is merely a way of looking at things, a paradigm of inquiry, science is not inherently anti-magic, it is merely that way in our universe because magic is not real, in a universe where magic works, then it would work under laboratory conditions and would thus the laws and science of magic would merge with scientific knowledge.
I started a thread in D20 about modern fantasy settings and have ideas that among the worlds greatest wizards are scientists.
The writing in bold I disagree with wholeheartedly for this reason, modern views explain away magical phenomena because we have sufficient scientific knowledge to offer a better explaination, in primitive countries faith healers and witch doctors still perform magic and this is not disbelieved by onlookers, the acceptance of the magical is relative to the scientific knowledge of the viewer.
On the second bold point, the current climate in the USA regarding controversial topics like Intelligent design and the teaching of evolution in schools proves that despite what the scientists say, people will not accept it if it goes against their world view, also a scientist may find himself unable to explain the principles of his death ray due to the gulf between his and the other persons understanding of science, this individual may know nothing of theta particles, inverse flux generation, anti gravitation wave forms.
Arthur c clarke said that any sufficiently advanced technology, is indistinguishable from magic, and settings like Stargate illustrate this well.
People usually have broader mind's and can rationalise the thing's they see as alien's or scientific phenomina with little more than fear of injury and not horror as they believe it may be explained.
This depends on the culture, Warhammer 40k is a technologically advanced setting, and yet many believe that an artillery weopon wont fire properly unless it has the relevant prayers to the god-emperor written upon it.
there are people I have had debate with who have said that illness and disease are caused by Sin and demons, IN THE 21ST CENTURY! scientific advancement does not mean broad minds or even basic rationality.
Also millitary despots may have access in such high technology setting's to nuclear weapons or things even more devastating that if he becomes annoyed enough may resort to acceptable losses. Now he may refrain depending on the villain but even still the players now must deal with social connections and manuvering not as a way to just discover weaknesses but as a main weakness. This in such high population's often leads to epic rebellion type game's but seldom is the villain defeated and then feared afterward with the entire world on the characters side.
Again this depends on specifics, it may be in certain beings nature to nuke a city to rid the world of an enemy, but this is not a univesal mentality, for instance the insane AI that was used as an example of a darklord, its thought and mentality are not the same as a human being and thus it may find it illogical or irrational to deal with a problem that has such damaging consequences due to a current lack of ideas and may find it more logical to wait until a better idea is formulated.
the other side of the coin is a despot who will happily nuke his own people, the balance with this is that such a despot will be universally despised and the players will find allies at every turn who will aid and shelter them.
The 1st is to make some things beyond comprehension and reintroduce magic but that is hard and it can bring balance issues on how it affect's technology and how much is known if it has survived to this day. This often lead's to an ebberon setting but the contrast need's to exist on some level or thing's become to easily explainable. 2nd and even harder is to give high technology unknown glitches and side effect's that are not explainable. But this raises the question of why they can be accessed by the players if they obviously need more development and it smacks of a cheap cop out.
The first point, I see no reason to reintroduce magic universally, magic may work on some worlds but not on others, the balance factor implied here is that a wizard wants to keep his powers then he shouldnt go into a nil magic world and should idealy have a backup, this no different than placing a domain at the bottom of the seas of Blood, players that cant breathe underwater need to sort something out or they will have a rough time.
The second point is actually a very good one, but I can honestly say that I dont see a problem, within Ravenloft certain magic does not function, certain spells function differntly, Necromantic and evil magic is wildly unpredicable and a necromancer can find himself ripped to bits by the zombies he has just created.
Why should technology be any different? I think its actually a very good balance mechanic, after all if the dark powers disrupt and twist the laws of magic, then why would they let the laws of physics off scott free, its amazing what people will accept if it becomes the norm, most people accept that under normal circumstances fire will not burn underwater, therefore it becomes something that is not even considered, fire needs oxygen, water contains oxygen and oxygen, hydrogen is flammable, yet fire usually wont burn underwater, there are reasons for this, but they are usually beyond the ken of ordinary people in the same way that some things are beyond the ken of scientists, in fact I can even see this random technological failiure becoming a new scientific law, If it occurs and can be studied then it can be understood, but not always changed, especially if the glitchiness is an inherent part of the working of the universe, you cant change that anymore than you can change the speed of light.
In terms of mechanics, nothing needs to change, a crossbow or a pistol, both can be used by anyone, both need a weapon proficiency to use well.
certain attack magic like fireballs and lightning bolts are simulated with grenades and flame weopons in D20 modern and this causes no imbalance (and if said items are rare then they gain the magnitude of importance that magic items do).
On the other hand a complex microcomputer that performs function similar to divination spells (like discern lie, comprehend languages etc) or a compact pharmaceutical laboratory that can cure disease, or even a hand held device that can regenerate tissues (and thus any spell like effect) may be so complicated (or require specific knowledge to use, for instance in depth knowledge of complex mathematics to use the divination computer, high tech does not always mean idiot proof or easy to use) that they require full technical knowledge to use and thus the users muct be scientists (making spell like abilities the province of select classes, no different than magic and wizards and sorcerors), the effects are the same, the only difference is if the wand is wood with a crystal on top, or metal with a small keypad on.
Thanks for your reply, I get the impression that you feel it might be a lost cause, and indeed it may be, I was merely putting an idea out there for review, and after all criticism helps to refine, flaws need to pointed out so they can be corrected, but should you decide that it is something that can be worked on then I would love to hear your opinions, your post was a fantastic contribution and I look forward to hopefully reading more of them :D
after all not all sci-fi is gleaming metal skyscrapers and hover cars, warhammer 40k is frequently described as gothic Sci-fi
True but I just said the architecture was often looked at as old and any reasonable culture while maintaining some old gothic structures will not use that architecture much beyond embelishment. But hey... It is possible so kudo's on that point.
I take your point however the brooding antihero, who must decide if in order to hunt monsters he is prepared to become one, has been done rather successfully by such sci-fi as Bladerunner, Dune.
Yes once more I agree that it has been done but I must point out that while it is done in sci-fi successfully it is difficult on some level when the monsters that you hunt are more explainable. But that is addressed further.
I would disagree here, what you describe has more Lovecraftian overtones, yet if you take the novel Dracula there is very little of that style in the book, in fact Dracula as a character comes across more a knowable understandable being (as Van Helsing does and is able to second guess and reason as the vampire reasons).
Okay for one point on that is true that Dracula and Frankenstien could be interpreted as modern but similar tale's of vampire's, werewolves and ghosts were told long before that and while you speak of understanding the vampires motivation, I think in that part specifically I was implying that the source of his power such as a pact with the devil for spite against a cruel god figure is not as easy to understand, nor the fact that the corpse can walk and seduce women. His motive's are view point's which some mind's can decipher and they do add a level of horror to character's unwise enough to figure them out. So I think we are both right here a little.
I am afarid I would have to disagree here as well, in my opinion the only difference between a fantasy setting and any historical setting is that fantasy setting works to a different set of physics, and sometimes biological principles, there is nothing special about the ogre or the dragon and both are believable beings (most creatures in Fantasy come from myth, and myth was often accepted as fact at one time or another).
On part of this I do not think we shall agree. Monster's in a fantasy setting are often a race or a clear and rationalized thing, thus when the players encounter an orc they know definitively that there are more orc's in the world or if this is the first orc seen by them as the DM will have either made orc's playable or explained thier absence. However in a gothic atmosphere fantasy world such thing's as Orc's will be seen as monster's or fey or be treated as if they are increasingly rare, unless they are a race that has been discovered and then they will be seen as savages and brutes and any mythology about them will be taken as cultural history by logical mind's or viewed as more lore for a mystic. Now you wonder what does that matter when you think about it. Well when orc's become a race they are expected to act a certain way and usually they will depending on how the DM run's them. If they always go to war sure they may be fierce and cause fear and pain but that is expected with them because they are war prone and become hacking fodder with little to no mystery. When PC's wander into a dungeon and find Kobold's they generally stumble through trap's and kill them by the dosens but even when the kolbold's are helping some great evil they do not fear or become horrified by them, only the mystery they were guarding. So while an Ogre can be a race on the world of Ravenloft, they must be used sparingly or they become common place as evil or however they are viewed when the DM uses them.
And as for Magic! it is still very much alive in the 21st century, despite all human scientiic understanding, people still believe and practice magic, the only real difference between the real world and the world of fantasy, is that in fantasy the magic works, and the creatures exist, but on an emotional level, the fear of the monsters, the power of the magic, was exactly the same.
Yes it is alive in the modern world and people practice it but no sane person repeat's a pointless exercise unless it hold's some spiritual purpose or it get's results. Magic is real in fantasy world's and thus since it does result in some effect even if not desired all the time, it will be worked on and studied to try and get use from it as it encourages curiousity and creativity. Now in Forgotten Relm's, or Greyhawk, wizards and sorcerers may be feared for the power they have magic is not as reviled. A cleric in these setting's is not seen as a saint just favored as a pious servent and healing is a service of the church in almost every branch. There are even dedicated school's to the subject's and those with enough gold can learn if they have the gift of magic with only some prejeduce.
However even if one to two people in a gothic fantasy setting might know of magic it probably is not recieved well. A mage in Ravenloft even if he can prove he is not evil may be called a devil worshipper or to consort with foul fey creatures. In extremly intolerant place's he may be burned at the stake. That same cleric may fear his own abilities at first or may have to suffer the life of a saint in the public eye. Healing is rare and if it is available then why should the church not give it to the people for free. Who deserves healing more the dying King or the child in the field when only one healer is in town. Even in magic dominated domain's such as Hazlan a mage is not feared just because he can burn your house down, but also because he might do something beyond your scope of imagination through something you thought not real or not possible. The more something is known of the harder it is to imagine it as mysterious or malevolent. You either know it is or is not and that creates certainty.
I fail to see how Science fiction is unable to do this, remeber this would still be ravenloft and as such each domain would be seperated from every other domain, so as far as the epic being observable, that is certainly not a problem.
As for the players being able to affect the world even in a minor way, I feel sure that many Star Wars players will tell you this certainly possible, the problem is not with science fiction as a genre but in the inventiveness of the DM.
Because modern warfare is impersonal in most case's and while you might want your players to run in lightsaber's swinging and a force shield or some such can stop orbital bombardment or artilery, the player's will not do such if every encounter force's them to ignore the pulse cannon they have on thier ship back in the dock, nore will they get horror if you let them blast the enemy with that pulse cannon. Once mission accomplished is the word of the day they will report back and recieve some info on how the world is affected by this war. If you have a backstory then what the PC's do is being supported by many off set character's if they have choosen one of the side's in the conflict. If they have then Isolation seem's distant in some way's. Fiber optic or satalite transmission cannot always be unavailable and this allows them to catch desperate glimpses which is quite a good effect for scaring but don't blame them for trying to surf the web for other things and it is a logical tactic. When your enemies are alien's in a modern setting most of thier advanced weaponry is like quantum physics and they may be super powerful but that mean's that the technology human's have is below thier's to such a point that the PC's will probably need it to win. If they get it they need to learn to use it or it is just scrap. An Alien race may be hard to kill in some world's but you can bet the moment they manage to down the beast the crafty xenobiologist character will study it and tell the player's exactly where and what to kill it with, unless you as the DM tell her she can't because it is so new and then it become's the debate of why it is so hard to study as you just want a few unanswered question's. Then they bring the corpse for study and while the base might not have better answers with better equipment they will probably reward the players. Now ok you say that's what you wanted right. Well the next time they face one of those creature's the few answers they did get will make the fear check from facing it just another roll as they expect it. Why was Alien so much more scary than Alien's... Because less was understood about the monsters and they were assumed to be some long dormant horror. The scariest part's in Alien's were what the people would do to each other and while that may work some time's, it will create suspicious PC's if used all the time. So yes it is harder because the character's have many tool's to use to defeat many trick's that a DM has. The achilies heel of a monster even in fantasy once known is a thing that once given to the PC's lessen's the fear. A red herring weakness is fine but if they are to succede then they will learn it. Of course if the weakness affects an entire race then the PC's won't fear them much in a war afterward. Even in a Ravenloft future there will probably be these advanced tool's to find these weaknesses and they need to work sometime's or they are not useful tool's at all. This isn't a complete list but you get the idea.
Again I dont see this factor as being monopolised by fantasy, if you look at any non space opera sci-fi like the Matrix (to a lesser extent), Dune, Shadowrun, even settings like 1984, you have the underdog facing megalithic enemies, that in many cases can never be defeated, merely avoided, only to have them resurface and be terrible than before.
I suspect what you imply here is that tension cannot be created and sustained as easily in a sci-fi setting, but again i feel that is a DM issue
Yes it is a DM issue and a big one. Neo in the Matrix when he did not know what was going on was horrified by the Agent's and the almost magical and impossible thing's they could do. However once he was explained that it was all a virtual world and the way that said Agent's came to have such power a level of understanding was always present in his mind. Once he faced Agent Smith and the other two who were present in the film again he believed he understood them enough that any new experiences caused suprise and a little fear but not horror or mind shattering madness. He knew enough to know them. When Agent Smith became that freaky self replicating thing that added a layer of horror once more but that in it's self was not explained just as the whole being the one was not completely explained. I did not say it was impossible but short of making something near impossible to explain it is hard to do. Social Horror is possibly the best remedy for this and that must also be handled with care. Future force's are megalythic and if they have power over the entire population except for a few individuals then it become's always apparent who your enemy is everyone. I fantasy gothic this could happen too, but most time's it is the regular people who you are defending because they are rationalising it away or blindly ignorent of the truth and have little to no means to aid them short of eyewitness. The future has mass television propaganda and martial law, survailence and seperation's of wealth and poverty that are so staggering that they imbalance the very social co survival purpose for civilization. Biological weapon's, Nanotechnology, Cloning an army ect, are all horrible if used wrong but also near impossible to combat with a ragtag group of people who may have exceptional abilities but have next to no one for support. In high tech self sufficency a rulling computer A.I. may simply be in a near impenatrable shell that is only one of 5 that are connected over a vast network. Should one go down the next one boot's up and send's the full force of the military against this group that harmed it and beat it's security. Two Months later it is back up and the group so depleted and hunted can't sneeze or get food medical supplies or contact other cell's. It is not that that is not scary or mysterious but if it is impossible then why run the adventure. A planet darklord is epic scale and had better have some kind of last resort power that prevents the people from rising up. Then you must make the hero's more powerful than the villian to win and it becomes a what God do I kill next time issue. To much power is hard to rationalize realisticly in most game settings and if not evenly distributed make's PC's envy the God PC.
I started a thread in D20 about modern fantasy settings and have ideas that among the worlds greatest wizards are scientists.
The writing in bold I disagree with wholeheartedly for this reason, modern views explain away magical phenomena because we have sufficient scientific knowledge to offer a better explaination, in primitive countries faith healers and witch doctors still perform magic and this is not disbelieved by onlookers, the acceptance of the magical is relative to the scientific knowledge of the viewer.
On the second bold point, the current climate in the USA regarding controversial topics like Intelligent design and the teaching of evolution in schools proves that despite what the scientists say, people will not accept it if it goes against their world view, also a scientist may find himself unable to explain the principles of his death ray due to the gulf between his and the other persons understanding of science, this individual may know nothing of theta particles, inverse flux generation, anti gravitation wave forms.
Arthur c clarke said that any sufficiently advanced technology, is indistinguishable from magic, and settings like Stargate illustrate this well.
Okay here your just splitting hairs a bit. Yes some believe in faith healing and such but once it is explained they see it as a trick that may encourage a proper state of mind to make someone believe they are better. However in lower technology setting's news of this will travel by word of mouth or written word, it is only once it is shoved home by someone in power is it dismissed by the majority and even then some maybe skeptical. However in high technology setting's people often have a lopsided view of thing's since science, news, learning, and other information are brought before them and for the most part are true. They are quick to accept these logical tidbit's and dismiss thing's they believe from report's to be false practice. Now while a Creationism view may run contrary to most applied science it is also now supported by often false or even questionable people using the same title's and method's that legitamite scientists and researchers use but without proper understanding or correct method. I am not saying it is wrong because I do not know for certain but I don't like hearing that someone had to lie to me to try to prove it. Even then in such a high tech world it would take a hermit under a rock to think that that ray gun was not technology and was magic. When I see something mysterious as most people do I wonder why it happend by science term's first, odd rationalization second, and when that is dismissed then mysterious phenomina. And while stargate does mix fantasy with Sci-fi all the fantasy is slowly explained and the horror is few and far between as the hero's of the series are from modern day earth and believe science to be behind the scene's, and are usually right.
This depends on the culture, Warhammer 40k is a technologically advanced setting, and yet many believe that an artillery weopon wont fire properly unless it has the relevant prayers to the god-emperor written upon it.
Yes but even then the technology is not something that is understood or advanced only copied and used. Information is brutally crushed and if that is so in only the Imperium as the Eldar, Tau, and several other race's are all able to see technology for what it is. The Eldar even consider that psykers tap the warp and rule it as dangerous magic. Also Warhammer is Sci-Fi fantasy where psyker's are just considered warp corrupted pawn's of Chaos unless under Imperial rule. Demon's fly up from the warp and mysterious things are lost to time. Even Necron's are considered an Ancient race and they had to challange some old power. So superstition may work with the NPC's but the PC's are going to try things thier own way consiquences to the Empire be dang'd to heck. All it take's is that moment of understanding and all the irrelivency of a situation cannot stand up to rational comprehension in the long run. So you are right but it only work's under these condition's and they condition's change like all things.
there are people I have had debate with who have said that illness and disease are caused by Sin and demons, IN THE 21ST CENTURY! scientific advancement does not mean broad minds or even basic rationality.
I would like to state now that even in Ravenloft there are people who dispite no proof of the cause believe they have a demon when they have a cold. In fact I will state that they are the ignorent majority in that case. Now if you pole everyone in Ravenloft the higher Cultural Level's will by common knowledge and belief, in majority state that it is a disease through scientific reasoning and those who believe in evil sin and demon's will be the minority most likely. Meanwhile, pole further back in CL you go and fewer people will believe the disease over evil spirit's. Yes once again culture can determine thing's but for it to be so it must be at such an extreme level of ignorance that it is hard to believe it would continue to progress very far. As in the Warhammer example, is that they copy thier machines from ancient works, and they damn all new technology. So you must go incredibly far in suppressing the people to achieve such thus the Godly Powerful Savior Complex that most of those stories have like I said above.
for instance the insane AI that was used as an example of a darklord, its thought and mentality are not the same as a human being and thus it may find it illogical or irrational to deal with a problem that has such damaging consequences due to a current lack of ideas and may find it more logical to wait until a better idea is formulated.
People turn on indecisive rulers and this is assuming that the A.I. is not willing to try and blame the Terrorist's post mortum. I know it has reservations but a cold logic would be "If you have power you must have some point at which it is acceptable to use it!" It could simply estimate damage potential vs casualties and resource loss over time. It is possible and likely I will admit it that the nuke would be delayed but there are plenty of other high powered weapon's in a futuristic arsenal. It is hard but to maintain control of a planet a darklord of Sci-fi Ravenloft may just be the type to do such.
the other side of the coin is a despot who will happily nuke his own people, the balance with this is that such a despot will be universally despised and the players will find allies at every turn who will aid and shelter them.
Yes but those allies are probably dirt poor repressed people who would be just as happy to not suffer the next nuke that the PC's drag at them. Reward's can be posted that could truly change someone in that position's life and of note is Falkovnia where there is a resistance movement. They are trying to claw freedom out but thier enemy is vastly more powerful. The common people get skewered for helping if caught and fear crushes thier spirit. In a Ravenloft type setting this is not unheard of but not prevelent and Falkovnia still trade's some and yet none of it's neighbor's have crushed it either when they get attacked. So allies are hard to find and should the people ever rise up enmass then yes victory could be won. But in future setting's as I have said before, there is so much power that it is hard to create horror, instead of just fear. It is not impossible but is still hard to do since there must be a balance. The more powerful the villian the more likely a more powerful hero must step forward and that lead's to situation's with no victory for underdog's or common men. Nothing wrong with a powerful hero in some settings but it will be a disruption in most Ravenloft style games in my opinion.
The first point, I see no reason to reintroduce magic universally, magic may work on some worlds but not on others, the balance factor implied here is that a wizard wants to keep his powers then he shouldnt go into a nil magic world and should idealy have a backup, this no different than placing a domain at the bottom of the seas of Blood,
Yes there is as technology can let one breath underwater but if the Dark Power's rule magic doesent work here then no gadget is going to change that. Next is the fact that if the PC who use's magic is negated of his main power for long stretches of a time he will feel cheated. Why not just play a scientist then and build a ship to travel with gun's that work like fireball's and lightining bolts. If you allow magic that is a sometime's thing but if the entire world is like that then what happen's when the PC's want to investigate. The mage has to use his impressive BAB, and the party is weakend. This is not an issue to some but that player will be having a harder time and will want to be important to the group other than an escort mission.
The second point is actually a very good one, but I can honestly say that I dont see a problem, within Ravenloft certain magic does not function, certain spells function differntly, Necromantic and evil magic is wildly unpredicable and a necromancer can find himself ripped to bits by the zombies he has just created.
This was brought up because in the long run you are going to have to decide every single time any new scientific thing come's up whether or not you want it to malfunction. Then you have to stick that on every single one made. It can never be by passed by any technological advancement because that would mean every player would upgrade to that type of weapon or item to get rid of the flaw. Those who know it inside and out may want to improve on it. If you say no you had better have a good reason because once they see the grass is greener well... Next point is when does Technology reach Artifact status in this futuristic setting. If it can then what is stopping one of these super advanced mega powers from breaching the mist's by building these things. If you say that they cannot be replicated that solve's one problem but how does it work. If you don't want headaches I don't recommend it. It is hard work to try and make fact's and science be unquestionably advanced without making the whole thing so complex it is easy to deal with. Players want to explore and find thing's while facing challenges and using thier character's talents to over come them.
As I said last post...
2nd and even harder is to give high technology unknown glitches and side effect's that are not explainable. But this raises the question of why they can be accessed by the players if they obviously need more development and it smacks of a cheap cop out.
Idividuals trained in it's use and maintenance must exist if not the PC's so what then when the malfunctioning Gene Splicer is pressed under the weight of a PC with 26 Intelligence and Max skill's to craft the sucker.
Thanks for your reply, I get the impression that you feel it might be a lost cause, and indeed it may be, I was merely putting an idea out there for review, and after all criticism helps to refine, flaws need to pointed out so they can be corrected, but should you decide that it is something that can be worked on then I would love to hear your opinions, your post was a fantastic contribution and I look forward to hopefully reading more of them
I actually have great hope for it to work as I see it as a complex future system that need's serious development before it can be effective enough to work. But I must now respond with a decent reply. I love having my first post's picked apart and either agreeing or finding further points of contention. All in fun of course.
Thank you for a great reply and tell me if you have further point's to argue.:D
I dont have time for a long post at the moment so just a quick response here.
I was thinking about this yesterday and mulling over your feedback and realised something.
Most of your objections revolve around what would happen if you took Ravenloft as it is, and then advanced it technologically, and the problems this would cause DM wise.
This is not actually what I had in mind, I was thinking more in terms of what ravenloft IS as opposed to what its LIKE, I was thinking purpose instead of method, and what ravenloft is at its heart is a prison for the multiverses most powerfull and evil beings, gothic aside, mists aside, vampires aside, ravenloft is just a prison where its inmates are tormented by their own desires (which are periodically helped along by the darkpowers).
I dont know how the qualities of sci-fi versus qualities of fantasy came about.
The way to go in my opinion is to think about it the way the dark powers would, if was going to create a prison for technologically advanced races, how would i do it, what would I do, and that would be the setting.
I was not suggesting creating of gothic sci-fi setting as such, but more creating a sci-fi prison realm that I thought would become gothic because it is moulded after ravenloft, gothic is not the target, it is a byproduct (a good byproduct but still not the prime target).
look forward to any replies.
Gothic Fantasy is wonderful, do you think that there could be such a thing as a good gothic sci-fi?
That is probably the line that led to this stream of thought. So just spell out what you want to change the topic to and let's continue.
I dont know how the qualities of sci-fi versus qualities of fantasy came about.
The way to go in my opinion is to think about it the way the dark powers would, if was going to create a prison for technologically advanced races, how would i do it, what would I do, and that would be the setting.
I was not suggesting creating of gothic sci-fi setting as such, but more creating a sci-fi prison realm that I thought would become gothic because it is moulded after ravenloft, gothic is not the target, it is a byproduct (a good byproduct but still not the prime target).
One piece of the puzzle is still as neccessary as another to complete it and while you want a prison like setting even dismissing all of the fantasy is not going to make it easier. Ravenloft is a gothic fantasy setting and that is a big part of it as a setting. So it is going to be harder to replicate scientificly and still maintain all of it's flare. You could have a more advanced race that want's to study evil be the "dark powers" and they are so far beyond us to be as god's in comparison.
I would write more but I have to go now but just post how you want to go from here and we can discuss adapting the issues that we have already discussed.
Till Later! Cap-G
Quote:
Gothic Fantasy is wonderful, do you think that there could be such a thing as a good gothic sci-fi?
That is probably the line that led to this stream of thought. So just spell out what you want to change the topic to and let's continue.
Yes I see what you mean, its not that i want to change the subject as such, more that i want to approach it from a different angle.
Much of what you have said makes perfect sense if I was thinking in terms of taking Ravenloft and advancing its level of development, and I can see that in my usual lack of clarity may have implied this was what i thinking.
However, what I am actually thinking is along more basic lines, more about premise than presentation, taking advise from hannibal lecter (not often a wise thing to do but he is occasionally on to something), if we think in terms of simplicity, and ask "what is it in itself, what is its nature", I am lead to the conclusion that Ravenloft is a Prison, that is its nature, the premise of the setting, the mood, themes, gothic elements, all these are incidental, it is all just window dressing.
I get the impression you are looking at this project in the manner of an artist, a novel writer or maybe a movie director,that thinks in terms of shape and hue, imagery and atmosphere, and producing a movie or piece of art set within a prison,while this is certainly an important approach at this stage I am thinking more in terms of architect or engineer designing the prison and then once that is done and it has inmates, then placing the atmosphere in context to the prison in order to punish the inmates further.
Now if its reasonable to say "the dark powers capture powerful and evil beings from magical universes and imprison and torment them within the realm of mists".
It would be a fair assumption that either A) the dark powers are enemies of evil and seek to punish or remove dangerous beings from the multiverse, OR B) the dark powers somehow gain something from imprisoning evil beings, maybe they feed on the evil itself and the realm of mists is basically a stomach.
In either case the first question that presents itself is "what reason would the dark powers have for only taking beings from magical universes?" and the only thing i can conclude is that only magical universes make it possible for the dark powers to exist and do what they do, BUT the problem with that argument is that no wizard or other being that posses magical power has beaten the darkpowers by using magic alone, this implies to me that the dark powers are unaffected or immune to the effects of magic, in which case it might be fair to say that the DP don't require a magical realm to exist.
the other question is that "If the dark powers want to punish evil, or if they want to trap it and feed/gain benefit from it, and if they can exist outside a magical plane, why would they limit themselves to only being from magical universes" and the answer to that in my opinion is, they wouldn't.
What I am thinking is to create a sci-fi setting that has the same nature or basic premise as Ravenloft i.e.
A plane or dimension used by the dark powers as prison for beings from a more highly developed culture, in the same way that Ravenloft is a prison for beings from magical worlds
.
Regarding technology and magic, I make no distinction and never really have between the two, both are bodies of knowledge that concern the hidden forces of the universe, both exist with the intention of exploiting or manipulating these forces and laws to bring about change that is of benefit to the scientist or the wizard, both are not understood by the uninitiated, they both have their own languages the runes of magic and the runes of algebra, chemical formulas etc.
In terms of mechanics, technology is not capable of anything that magic cannot do, and vise versa, the fact that technology can be shared and given to non scientists is no different than the fact that magic swords and potions, amulets and other magic items can be used and given to non wizards.
If you state from the off set that the galaxy of mists is NON magical (maybe the DP like to keep things organized and magical being go to ravenloft, others go to the galaxy of mists), then no balance issues occur, in the strictest sense lack of balance would be circumstances where technology was available to one player but not another, or available to the DM but not the party, same is said for magic, but as it is a universally high technology setting (which has occasional low tech domains, in the same way that magic items are probably more common in Darkon or hazlan than in some of the other realms) then no real balance problem occurs.
I am however thinking that psionics may be possible and present, but again are twisted by the DP (perhaps psionics leads to madness or mutation), and if technology replaces magic (which I think is reasonable, security cameras are no better than a gem of seeing or divination spells) then technology must also go through the rinse and suffer under the DP in the same way that magic has.
Do you have any feedback on what kind of content is appropriate, or suggestions for darklords or way in which the prison works?
I look forward to your reply
PS- Just as a side issue and not really important but the insane AI example I gave who decides against vaporizing a portion of its infrastructure, being turned on by its citizens for being indecisive, the idea came from a cross between Skynet and the Cybermen from Doctor Who, its subjects are incapable of revolt because they have had extensive brain surgery (those that have brains) and extensive cybernetic "upgrading", or where mass produced in factories, they are not a collective of individuals, they are more like drones (I mention it because this was the reason I had in mind for the AI's imprisonment)
Have a good one :D
The Alien movies captures that very well, so much so that it inspired a Ravenloft domain of Timor and the Marikith queen.
Movies like Blade Runner and Ghost in the Shell have a very cerebral approach towards social decay, moral misdirection, and growing isolation.
Although Star Wars as a whole does not translate well into terror or horror, there are moments in the individual films - especially apparent in Empire Strikes Back - which focus on hopelessness, solitude, and the loss of control over your own destiny. Scenes like the Dagobah tree cave scene, and Vader stalking Luke in Cloud City carry considerable menace and dread. The actual relationship between Luke and Vader is pretty common to Gothic themes: for Luke, the fear of becoming a slave to your origins, of becoming like the thing you are trying to kill, and of your own actions (despite all good intentions) paving the way to hell for yourself and your friends. For Vader, the loss of control that any parent, architect, or sculptor experiences after the act of creation, and the fear of being replaced or subsumed by an ascendant successor.
Parallels between the injuries that Vader and Luke inflict on each other ring true all the way back to the castration myth between Kronos and Ouranos in Greek mythology.
A lot of great points there, I remember a conversation with a friend of mines girlfriend about star wars, she is not into sci-fi and was reluctant to watch it, however i explained to her that Star wars probably has more in common with fantasy than with sci fi, it contains archetypal characters (most of the characters could have homes in any fantasy setting, vader is the black knight, obiwan the wizard mentor, Palpatine the evil king, Han solo the good hearted scoundrel and his faithful companion, and even yoda is the ancient sage) they exist in most great works of heroic fiction, contains classic themes such as the fall from grace, the change from humble farm boy to great warrior.
And your mentioning of Alien and Timor is apt as one of the possible domains I was considering would be a something like a xenomorph homeworld.
Regarding sci-fi, you are absolutely right, Fantasy has its themes and ways of dealing with horror, things like the danger of forbidden arts, ancient evil that slumbers and will awaken at the right time, the dangers of becoming that which you hate the most and so on.
The thing with sci-fi is that it has its own methods and a sci-fi realm of mists would be heavy with themes such as the alienation of individual within the mega city (Brazil and most cyberpunk), the unknown alien menace that stalks the shadows (aliens,predator), science gone wrong (Frankenstein,the fly), loss of identity in the electronic age (another cyberpunk staple), dystopian future (1984, robocop), Transhumanism gone wrong (anything that involves cybernetic science of genetic engineering resulting in the loss of humanity).
Horror and science fiction do go well together, it just means that moving a slightly different direction.
thanks again for your post :D
Alright let's get this true thread under way.
Regarding technology and magic, I make no distinction and never really have between the two, both are bodies of knowledge that concern the hidden forces of the universe, both exist with the intention of exploiting or manipulating these forces and laws to bring about change that is of benefit to the scientist or the wizard, both are not understood by the uninitiated, they both have their own languages the runes of magic and the runes of algebra, chemical formulas etc.
In terms of mechanics, technology is not capable of anything that magic cannot do, and vise versa, the fact that technology can be shared and given to non scientists is no different than the fact that magic swords and potions, amulets and other magic items can be used and given to non wizards.
If you state from the off set that the galaxy of mists is NON magical (maybe the DP like to keep things organized and magical being go to ravenloft, others go to the galaxy of mists), then no balance issues occur, in the strictest sense lack of balance would be circumstances where technology was available to one player but not another, or available to the DM but not the party, same is said for magic, but as it is a universally high technology setting (which has occasional low tech domains, in the same way that magic items are probably more common in Darkon or hazlan than in some of the other realms) then no real balance problem occurs.
Psionic's in my opinion has both been a blessing and a curse on me in fantasy settings. It is seldom as supported as the magical system so I have some issue's with blending it and not making it seem as though it is forced.
In a sci-fi setting I think it would be a much more viable option than magic it almost every sense. The point's based system has always seemed more of a good measure of power than spell lvl's. I also think that fear horror and madness save's can be used in this regard as the mind is stretched very far to act on reality, especially if what run's that reality is a darkly watching prison warden. Evolution is the concept that most allow's a creature to develop new survival functions so psionic talent could be a next evolutionary step.
Technology if you wish it to be a resource must be handeled as if it is a puzzle with one piece missing. That one piece show's the part you most want to see... So much so that you imagine your own conception of what it is with labels and term's that may not apply. So while a character could attempt to solve a problem with teleportation tech, he upon placing the last piece find's it to be something unexpected. Thus a new problem is found to be blocking a path to perfection which is an obsesive dream. This just means that even if the original problem of let's say random damage and dismemberment is some how fixed that the thing may spontainously clone you due to increasing the power or such. A ray gun that burns people but due to design neccesity cannot support advanced targeting and thus always has a chance to hit your allies while shooting it into melee. Genetic enhancements from incompatable species may cause genetic drift resulting in recessive qualities that also take hold unintentionally. Mind accessing or altering technology must access the brain and can cause over stimulation and brain damage if not death. Then there are paradoxes like time duplicates and copied minds, or alternate universes that have one blade of grass difference. Much of that can be determined and done once you have an idea on the technology you will introduce.
Regarding technology and magic, I make no distinction and never really have between the two, both are bodies of knowledge that concern the hidden forces of the universe, both exist with the intention of exploiting or manipulating these forces and laws to bring about change that is of benefit to the scientist or the wizard, both are not understood by the uninitiated, they both have their own languages the runes of magic and the runes of algebra, chemical formulas etc.
In terms of mechanics, technology is not capable of anything that magic cannot do, and vise versa, the fact that technology can be shared and given to non scientists is no different than the fact that magic swords and potions, amulets and other magic items can be used and given to non wizards.
If you state from the off set that the galaxy of mists is NON magical (maybe the DP like to keep things organized and magical being go to ravenloft, others go to the galaxy of mists), then no balance issues occur, in the strictest sense lack of balance would be circumstances where technology was available to one player but not another, or available to the DM but not the party, same is said for magic, but as it is a universally high technology setting (which has occasional low tech domains, in the same way that magic items are probably more common in Darkon or hazlan than in some of the other realms) then no real balance problem occurs.
The Dark Powers are simply thought to be vastly powerful beings and thus are never truly Identified or catagorised. Perhaps it is just the superstitious view of that magic using Ravenloft that discribes them as such. In a high tech vastly logical world maybe only the Darklord's of these planets or astral bodies may believe that something very powerful but logical, such as a conspiricy, mad belief, cosmic coincidence, chaos theory, and undeciphered phenomina. If they are to close thier borders then perhaps it is from a lazer defense grid, ancient alien technology, massive scale mind control, epic psychic reality altering, planet phasing that pulls the planet into another dimension, or almost anything with a sci-fi mock up of a fantasy principal.
Darklord's can range from what world that they dominate so here are a few that control very large domains.
Perhaps on a prison planet that the other worlds use an unstable Super Soldier who simply hold's his position from what he and his followers take is the dark lord but the simple fact that the prisoners are teleported in or dropped in pod's prevents easy escape and as he scheme's to escape he always find's some flaw or betrayal that makes his already hightend aggressor response go on a rank purifying rampage. This behavior is the reason why even his comrades on the surface want to leave him behind.
Another could be a in an unintentional space station on a deralect vessel in an asteroid belt. Maybe he was part of a crew of space pirates who stole a powerful prototype vessel that made them near invincible, but it is somehow damaged and they must escape. So while hiding out in thier base in the belt they had mined several of the asteroids and had been trying to repair the main ship. Using the little stealth they had they hid when people began to build homes on the more stable asteroids trying to build away from the other civilizations. Now he and his crew slowly infiltrated and began a criminal underground spanning these colonies. He tries to get the supplies through his new black market he needs to fix his vastly complex vessel but it is slow to get to him and just as one problem is fixed another part breaks always leaving him on the edge of escape with his powerful gunship.
On another world it could be populated with psychicly powerful and almost idealic race of slightly closed off xenophobic aliens who seem peaceful and forgiving but are all forced to be disiplined by the royal family and the forced psychic linking that happens at birth. Few of these people are free and other races are tolerated to visit but if any live there they must agree to the link. Anyone who rise's against them while under the link is killed with psychic backlash. Anyone who defiles the perfection they have attained is killed with psychic backlash. These people are only visable in thoughts to these royals when they are aggressive and thus they cannot target the controled subjects unless they either see them misbehave or they cannot control thier emotional response. This does not stop them from hearing a flooding mass of unhappy thoughts mixed along the link, but since the royal family lives in a golden palace, are worshipped, and none of thier people suffer or are savage like the other races, while they control them they have little reason to try.
A massive container holds a creature that swirls caught in the gravity of a supermassive black hole. It considers it's self to be a superior god and when free it could bend reality and use powers that it had once in eons past. But it cannot understand how it can escape what it thinks is a powerful being's trap. It is immortal by it's understanding and since it views time differently it has eon's to prepare. Several safely distant ships and stations are observing the black hole and while they see an un identifiable structure caught with in they cannot gather much information about it. This creature begins using the area it can control within the black holes gravity well and causes phenomina or projects what ever thoughts it can into tricking the scientists and others into attempting to rescue it. The object is immune to his powers but he can create the illusion of what the person would most desire to aid or gain over it and can effect thier minds. None have been successful so far but with his god like perception he can wait and try as many times as neccessary.
Those are just a few of my examples and I hope they are fairly good to your eyes.
If you strip "Gothic" down to "terror/horror" and remove the time period constraints, I think a sci-fi terror/horror theme is well established.
Yes they do and you are right in that regard HuManBing. Now that gothic is removed from the formula in such a strict sense it can work on that level When I thought of the gothic part I see it as a backdrop on some other issues such as things long forgot but not gone, halting of progress, and an embracing of faith and will as a tangible defense against such horrors that assault you. Now you can replicate long forgotten mystery, and the prevention of progress, but the faith issue is the one that stick's somewhat slightly. A priest in fantasy could stop the vampire with the holy word and a cross. A priest in most sci-fi like in alien ressurection is just food for the creatures and his belief other than strengthening his resolve or being a comfort is not able to do such. Psionics like in my last post is like that if you treat it like the force in star wars in some sense. But even Psionics has some rationalization in most sci-fi and thus it falls into a catagory of willpower of the individual. Faith becomes window dressing and that is fine in the sci-fi setting but it does take some of the mystery out of the game and a little of the horror. If a god can stop these dark entities and act's through that person they become either saints or a shocking enigma to the straight minded atheist characters. So I totally agree but that was a difference that seemed to be big between fantasy and sci-fi.
As for paralels that is just character and trait substitution that accomplishes the same thing. Just like you said that aliens was the reference for Timor, I say that you are right. But Aliens was not the same as Timor and while they may draw paralels the queen in Timor was by story once a mortal. The Alien queen hatched from a host but she was not created out of malice or evil intent. Basicly the queen of Timor's hive has lost most of what made her human and so do those that are transformed into Marikith's but she still suffers it's frailties. The alien queen is a for most study of it's intelligence an advanced survival instinct and if the comics are to be referenced, a belief in racial superiority of her brood over another queens like ant's of the same species killing others of other nests. They seem to do it with no malice or concept of guilt making them inhuman in any sense.
Although Star Wars as a whole does not translate well into terror or horror, there are moments in the individual films - especially apparent in Empire Strikes Back - which focus on hopelessness, solitude, and the loss of control over your own destiny. Scenes like the Dagobah tree cave scene, and Vader stalking Luke in Cloud City carry considerable menace and dread. The actual relationship between Luke and Vader is pretty common to Gothic themes: for Luke, the fear of becoming a slave to your origins, of becoming like the thing you are trying to kill, and of your own actions (despite all good intentions) paving the way to hell for yourself and your friends. For Vader, the loss of control that any parent, architect, or sculptor experiences after the act of creation, and the fear of being replaced or subsumed by an ascendant successor.
As to paraleling Star Wars well that was intentional and it can be done in almost with most stories without the fantasy or sci-fi element as long as there are imbalances in power and knowledge and some conflict to drive the Luke/Arthur character to accept the teaching of the Obi wan/Merlin type character with friends and enemies filling other roles. It is about the loss of ones innocent place in the world and the grasping and learning to wield ones power without malice or prejeduce clouding ones judgement.
Terror and Horror are laced at lower or higher levels through out many tales but when you have certainty it lessens the places it can get you. In sci-fi it usually comes from suprise and in quick bursts from physical forces that are explained and understood fairly quickly on how it can get you or what is neccessary to escape or defeat it. Shock and awe is a brutal tactic and it must be at the correct times or it will fall flat very quick if over or under used. But when someone thinks they know what a villian is capable of that is one of the methods that is over used. The next thing is the growing horror that is mental usually comes as you said from becoming evil like ones vile father or letting the best of intentions be the path to darkness. Sometimes it comes simply from falling into a trap when you thought you had a way to escape. Now this is a fine conflict for the mental portion and I have done so with my own Ravenloft games to great success. Yet with sci-fi if done too far as is often the case you get these overly complex plans within plans within plans within plans ect. Now either they are too complex for the circumstance and it is just too big a twist to be plausible or it falls into that it seems forced together in haste and spells the mystery out in that instant that it ruins the climax of the reveal. The first matrix did it well on many issues and when it was explained it was interesting and scary and even mind blowing. But other twists in it such as his machine control power, the lie about the one, and his code based blindsight were badly handled and the build up not sufficently set up or understood, so that when they were revealed the twist was flat. But that was a movie with time constraints and buget issues and not the imagination of a person.
So I agree with most things on this post I am just saying that it is hard and must be handled carefully.
This interests me.
You see, I'm hombrewing up a magi-tech using race called the Nic'en to serve as the main antagonists in one of my games.
You see, the race's story has a lot to go on with the Ravenloft paradigm: They're uberpowerful, they're manipulative, but they're also tragic.
You see, originally the Nic'en were a peaceful race of interdimensional explorers, but they were forced to abandon them when they came in contact with a now-similar warrior race, the Iul. Cut to several million years later, the Nic'en are still fighting tooth-and-nail, and have long since gotten into the habit of attacking and later annexing various worlds they come across. Of course, it's largely their own fault that they're still fighting: The Iul are instinctually paranoid, but they would happily sign a peace treaty with the Nic'en, if it wasn't for the fanatics on thier side bombing them constantly.
It's quite easy to imagine a Nic'en darklord: a dogmatic and closed-minded general, who turned on his own people in an attempt to root out what he saw as Iul infiltration. His curse would be he cannot actually influence how his underlings act anymore, despite the power his domain gives him, and that he would become mentally linked to any Iul in the vacinity; thus, he could not enforce his fear-mongering regime, and he would be inherently hypocritical when fighting against his delusions of Iul infiltration; how can one fight that which is in himself?
Fantasy does not have the monopoly on these type of characters, I think this race would fit perfectly, as i am sure would many others.
If there are any Doctor Who fans out there, I am quite sure that Davros would make a good darklord, for those who are not familiar with it
, Davros was the scientist that created the Daleks, his race the Kaleds were a Nazi like culture who were obsessed with racial purity, eugenics, and genocide, after fighting with the Thals (another nation on the planet Skaro) in a stalemate war for over a millenia, the effects of their war began to show on both sides, nuclear weapons, germ warfare, and chemical weapons tainted much of the planet and even both races were beggining to experience mutations among their population.
Davros was the head of the scientific elite, he was charged with creating weopons that would tip the war in their favour, he worked on this until his laboratory was hit by a shell and he was critically injured, he was badly burned and lost his eyes, his throat was badly damaged, he lost his legs the use of an arm and many of his organs where destroyed by chemicals in the warhead, he only survived thanks to a special life support unit and his own will to live.
Despite his injuries he worked on creating new weapons, then he began to research the mutations that his race was producing, after study he concluded that the genetics of the species where becomeing drastically altered and that in the future the kaled race would no longer be humanoid, to this end he created a machine to enable the mutated kaleds to continue functioning, a shell that served to keep them alive,mobile and able to continue as a technological species.
He also began to perform experiments on the people to find out what this final organism would be so that he could improve upon it with genetic engineering, the race he created was a mutated abberation, through conditioning he removed the "weaknesses" of compassion, mercy, conscience, leaving only hatred to motivate them, they were xenophobic in the extreme and were conditioned to believe that their only hope for survival was to enslave or exterminate all other life.
When the scientists under his command objected to thsi project and went to the government, who decided to launch an inquiry (which would have held the project up for years possibly and would have no doubt resulted in it being shut down), Davros decided that the cowardice and treason of the kaled people had spelled their doom and turned on his own people and defected to the Thals, he gave them instructions on how to bypass their defences (as he had designed most of them), when the Thals wiped out the kaleds Davros returned to his bunkers and finished the dalek project, the daleks then massacred the Thals, making davros responsible for the death of a whole planet. His creatures go on to become one of the greatest mass murdering races of the whoniverse, the irony is that as soon as he allowed the Daleks self control, they turned on him as an inferior species.
Davros also knew what his creatures would become and how much death and destruction they would bring (by torturing a captured time traveller), but still created them anyway.
He comes back into the series from time to time, and is always trying to regain control of his creations.
His crime- genocide, and the creation of a species that is also responsible for genocide.
his curse- he will always be rejected by his creations and they will constantly turn on him no matter what, OR his creations completely fail in their task of exterminating all other life and as a result are constantly defeated (similar to Vlad Drakov).
Just an idea.
thanks all
I get the impression that things might have been different if he had not been maimed, to be crippled and scarred like that in world where purity and perfection are paramount, where the culture demands only the most perfect specimens of the master race are worthy of survival, must have been a blow to his massive ego.
In fact in the audio book which goes into his origins, he was encouraged to commit suicide, he refused (obviously) not out of fear of death, on wartorn Skaro everyone lived with the threat of death constantly, he refused because it would mean weakness or failiure on his part, he didnt consider himself ready for the scrap heap yet (and he was right).
Much of his mentality and the mentality of his creatures (weak and wretched little abberations) can be blamed on his own desire to prove himself superior, despite his setbacks and injuries, I have always felt that there was something of the Short man syndrome about the daleks.
Much of his mentality and the mentality of his creatures (weak and wretched little abberations) can be blamed on his own desire to prove himself superior, despite his setbacks and injuries, I have always felt that there was something of the Short man syndrome about the daleks.
Yeah Giradius the Short Man Syndrome does make sense for a being with only an ego and rage with which to fuel it. The Daleks though don't seem to have a sense of inferiority from which it would stem, but that just makes it a blind anger and reasoning away from thier own short commings since they are unable to feel anything to the contrary. Davros definitely has such of himself because he is trying with all of these things to prove himself superior even to his ideal of superiority that he says is the Daleks. It is also almost a reflection of the bad seed sort of in that his creations are from his corrupt labor and also are corrupt from his sort of parenting!
By the way, are you thinking of Doctor Who for much of your inspiration? It is a great series and has a lot of potential yes. But what sort of original character's could be gleened from them. Davros is a fine example and the Daleks are great villians as well so what is his his Galaxy of Mists counter part like. I guess he could be still a racial purist but is there any difference in his success this time. Does he have some counter measure against his own creations that is a dependable defense or deterent from them just killing him off or just struggling to flee each time and hide till he can find such a defense. Is he the Darklord of a large relm or is his surrounded and surpassed by his creations.
You see, I'm hombrewing up a magi-tech using race called the Nic'en to serve as the main antagonists in one of my games.
You see, the race's story has a lot to go on with the Ravenloft paradigm: They're uberpowerful, they're manipulative, but they're also tragic.
And next...
this is the sort of thing we are after!
Fantasy does not have the monopoly on these type of characters, I think this race would fit perfectly, as i am sure would many others.
To question Giradius first...
True but what defines it as magic and not as you put it hyper advanced technology that appears as such to the uniformed. See this is like Sci-fi/Fantasy and you are in this above quote saying that fantasy does not have a monopoly. It is true it doesn't because it is all fictional and should not be divided unless it need's seperate distinction by the authors imagination of such. But with that statement you seem to be dividing them into such that they must be different to some degree. Magic is a huge part of fantasy and is like a founding principal of most fantasy worlds. Science is the main thing about Sci-fi and thus even if they can replicate each others effects they both tap extremely different sources of power. But they are not the same thing.
Heck I love the Final Fantasy series and they do this over and over again. But even if an airship is magical and scientific I veiw each part on a case by case basis for what makes it work. A gun blade with no noticeable barrel to me just channels magical energy from its ammo into the blade through a complex mechanical/magical triggering system. Materia is the life stream/mako consisting of undefinable energy and the thoughts and memories of all beings on the planet, that has crystalized and forms complex arrays that manipulate energies into magical effects by force of anothers will that basically make materia grow and enhance themselves with use.
As in the gun blade the science made the trigger and gears and the magic made the release of the energy. Materia is from magical source but is a natural part of the universe and is quantifiable in that sense and that it deals with thoughts and memories, but it came from magic. Mako is also a tappable resource for powering scientific devices as well but the powersource is not science it is magic. They do not define the magic in such a way to destroy it's mystery nor do they rule it as all powerful over science in all ways or vice versa. They simply establish it as an unknown part of reality that may not be explainable in simple terms as to how it came to be.
Science theories evolve and change on the systems of reality and magic would be a different yet interlinked system if also present. One achieves the same results as the other but through different methods so can they truly be one and the same? Friction creates heat and so does energy and through accepted theory and observation is constantly in motion, and both are considered science. But magic can make hot ice, raw waves of force with no motivational reason, or change matter as if the universe was just a chalk board and not a puzzle. If you make an apple into some sort of paper the fundamental properties of its individual parts have not changed. Coal and Diamonds are still both made of carbon and when coal becomes a diamond that carbon is still the same fundamentally. Beyond that everything is made of energy and while energy changes form it is still the same energy no matter how you fraction it into smaller pieces. A is A! A cannot be B! That is an axiam of logic so magic and science must be different even if they accomplish the same goals.
Even if magic is possible in this dimension in the universe it depends on the source of its power than from its title. I guess it is just a view on what begins and ends such things and even in fantasy there is a clear destinction between magic and technology even if they are combined. One uses the other or two seperate effects working toward a greater whole. Magic for all it's study requires some unquantifiable quality at its very core, while science requires study and great mental ability as well to advance but it can be done by any with those qualities. One can be measured in IQ while the other is just there or not is all I am saying.
Only a wizard or sorcerer can make a +5 vorpral brilliant energy, life drinking sword, but after a principal of science is discovered that makes a lightsaber possible anyone who studies the principal, even a wizard or sorcerer, can build an assembly line of advanced robots or even magical golems, to make such weapons. If both principals are combined then that is one heck of a sword.
Now on to Leliel...
Magic on a large scale is still magic even if everyone or almost everyone of this race has that quality but how do they view it? What are the cultural distinctions of these people and thier use of magic? You mentioned Dogmatic so is it religion or inner quality, divine right or just a law of the universe as if another science to them? Do they take it for granted or question it's origin? Is the dogma unrelated to the magic or dependant upon it?
******
So in sumation, no matter the view of such things they are both derived from different sources, that these beings, use to manipulate the universe and I have said before that it is a good idea. I just like to have the details and I like to make others think on the source of magic and science!
The Daleks though don't seem to have a sense of inferiority from which it would stem, but that just makes it a blind anger and reasoning away from thier own short commings since they are unable to feel anything to the contrary.
This is pretty much what i said, Davros had feelings of inadeqacy (but would no doubt deny this) and because he is responsible for the mind of the daleks he passed on the results of this to his creations, so they effectivly share his delusion of superiority, and due to their psychological make up, are inacapible of self deception and so their high opinion of themselves becomes fact to them.
By the way, are you thinking of Doctor Who for much of your inspiration? It is a great series and has a lot of potential yes. But what sort of original character's could be gleened from them
.
It was not my prime inspiration, Ravenloft was!, although because doctor Who is the longest running sci-fi series in the world, it is bound to have lots to contribute, just of the top of my head...
Azal the daemon (a race of powerful psychic aliens), who treats whole planets as sociological experiments, giveing primitive being advanced weopons to see if they annilate themselves.
Sutekh the destroyer (who i suspect is one of the influences behind stargate), a powerful almost godlike being that fears and despises other sentient races so much he tried to exterminate them until his bother horus imprisoned him in a pyramid.
The mentors, are a race of small slug like creatures (rather like little green versions of the hutts) that are ruthless entrepenaurs and have no morals in business, they represent the worst excesses of any corporate villain in any setting.
Quote:
this is the sort of thing we are after!
Fantasy does not have the monopoly on these type of characters, I think this race would fit perfectly, as i am sure would many others.
To question Giradius first...
True but what defines it as magic and not as you put it hyper advanced technology that appears as such to the uniformed. See this is like Sci-fi/Fantasy and you are in this above quote saying that fantasy does not have a monopoly. It is true it doesn't because it is all fictional and should not be divided unless it need's seperate distinction by the authors imagination of such. But with that statement you seem to be dividing them into such that they must be different to some degree. Magic is a huge part of fantasy and is like a founding principal of most fantasy worlds. Science is the main thing about Sci-fi and thus even if they can replicate each others effects they both tap extremely different sources of power. But they are not the same thing.
We are back to this again are we!
Ok let me clarify, when this was said....
Quote:
You see, I'm hombrewing up a magi-tech using race called the Nic'en to serve as the main antagonists in one of my games.
You see, the race's story has a lot to go on with the Ravenloft paradigm: They're uberpowerful, they're manipulative, but they're also tragic
and I replied
this is the sort of thing we are after!
Fantasy does not have the monopoly on these type of characters, I think this race would fit perfectly, as i am sure would many others.
I was working on the assumption that they could be accepted AFTER a few tweaks were made, Ie magic altered to become psionics or high technology, when i said this is the kind of thing we were after, I was refering primarily to the themes and concept after all the magic element of the post consisted of the word Magi-tech, thats all the mention to magic there was, everything else in the post could be done with science.
Science theories evolve and change on the systems of reality and magic would be a different yet interlinked system if also present. One achieves the same results as the other but through different methods so can they truly be one and the same? Friction creates heat and so does energy and through accepted theory and observation is constantly in motion, and both are considered science. But magic can make hot ice, raw waves of force with no motivational reason, or change matter as if the universe was just a chalk board and not a puzzle. If you make an apple into some sort of paper the fundamental properties of its individual parts have not changed. Coal and Diamonds are still both made of carbon and when coal becomes a diamond that carbon is still the same fundamentally. Beyond that everything is made of energy and while energy changes form it is still the same energy no matter how you fraction it into smaller pieces. A is A! A cannot be B! That is an axiam of logic so magic and science must be different even if they accomplish the same goals.
And
Even if magic is possible in this dimension in the universe it depends on the source of its power than from its title. I guess it is just a view on what begins and ends such things and even in fantasy there is a clear destinction between magic and technology even if they are combined. One uses the other or two seperate effects working toward a greater whole. Magic for all it's study requires some unquantifiable quality at its very core, while science requires study and great mental ability as well to advance but it can be done by any with those qualities. One can be measured in IQ while the other is just there or not is all I am saying
You are right, anyone with a grasp of the scientifc method can study science, but I disagree with your definitions of magic, and the fact that you have seperated it from science in a setting where it exists when fact of the matter is science is not the study of the material it is the study of reality and how reality works using a specific mode of inquiry, if magic exists then it is part of science and can be studied using the scientific method.
Science depends on the scientific method, it searches for quantifiable data , tested repeatedly under laboratory conditions, it is not just information about the material universe, it is knowledge about reality, science denies magic not because it is a different discipline but because it does not exist, in a world where magic works a wizard can cast fireball under laboratory conditions, repeatably making magic quantifiable, provable and therefore it a fact of reality, magic is then incorporated into science and is studied as physics would be studied.
Your claim that they have different sources, i dont see what this is based on.
physical affects physical, that is technology, immaterial affects physical, that is magic, the fact that immaterial affects physical, that is physics.
For magic to work does not require a different source of energy, nor any form of unquantifiable quality, it merely requires energy transfers to work differently or for previously unconnected phenomena to become connected,
Desity = mass/volume, magical work done=thought energy applied/magnitude of work required multiplied by The arcane energy constant (this constant could be the amount of magical energy converted into physical energy, for example 1 thaum or unit of magical energy becomes x newtons, or x Kg), if you were to rearrange this equation you would get very little magical energy from physical mundane items.
All things follow the law of conservation of energy, even magic, if magic requires even the slightest effort on the part of the wizard then an energy transference has occured, the wizard requires energy to live, walking requires energy, spell casting requires energy (even if its only the chemical enrgy requires for muscles to move during casting), all that is needed is energy/physical relationships to be different.
for example, you throw a stone up onto a post, the stone moves through the air with kinetic energy, the stone lands on top of the post and stops, the stone sits there for 1000 years, it still has as much energy as it had when it was flying through the air, all that has happened is the kinetic energy has been converted into gravitational potential energy (with a moderate loss in forms of sonic and internal heat energy), now in a magical universe a wizard looks at the rock on the pillar and wills it to fall, his willing it fall requires time to concentrate, and the transfer of chemical energy (his own physical energy derived from food etc) into "thought" energy, through magical practices gestures, words etc, this "thought" energy is transfered into "Will" or magical energy, magical energy is a FORM of energy that exchanges at a high rate into all other forms of ebergy in the universe, the wizards magical energy converts into kinetic energy which does work on the rock and pushes it of the pillar, consequently this high exchange is one way, where the wizard to take the energy from the rock and convert it into magical energy it would be negligible.
in that scenario, no "extra" energy was used, it was merely converted differently and took a different forms, any magic can be done this way Will into heat = fireball, will into kinetic energy= magehand,mage armour, will into matter = conjuration, and remeber magic is only mysterious to the uniniated (I know this after a decade of occult research, the occult is understood by many occultists, but not by the unenlightened), it follows laws and rules well known to the wizard, the same is said of science.
I am not familiar with Final Fantasy at all, and have never played any of the games, however this gun sword sounds to me like pure technology in a world where physics works differently,as i said above, magic is not seprate from science, as science is just a body of knowledge gained from study using the scientific method, if you can make a gunsword, you can make it again by repeating the exact processes, by doing so you have confirmed there are physical laws that govern these processes, well done, by creating this magical artefact you have just won the nobel prize for physics.
Only a wizard or sorcerer can make a +5 vorpral brilliant energy, life drinking sword, but after a principal of science is discovered that makes a lightsaber possible anyone who studies the principal, even a wizard or sorcerer, can build an assembly line of advanced robots or even magical golems, to make such weapons. If both principals are combined then that is one heck of a sword
I get the point you are making here, ONLY a wizard can a magic sword, ONLY a scientist can design a lightsaber or a gun, if someone studies science they can make a gun as well, if someone studies magic, they can make a sword as well, your distinction makes no sense, a scientist is person learned in the body of knowledge known as science, as such his outlook will be drawn from science based knowledge, a wizard is someone learned in the body of knowledge known as magic, as such their outlook will be drawn from their magical knowledge, where is the difference? they are both learned men, they both study the workings of reality, in a world wehere magic works, they would probably be the same the man, this is fairly well established in fantasy, when the wizard is often alchemist and astronomer as well, and even occasionally engineer (such as saruman from lord of the rings).
If the point you are making is mass production, this is a recent thing, science existed before mass production, and as you point out, a wizard could summon unseen servants, create golems,summon elementals etc, this does not usually happen because the end result does not justify the expense of setting up the manufacturing process (or maybe because they never thought of it, as i said mass production is a fairly recent thing, medieval mass production was basically when the lord told every blacksmith to come to his castle and make 400 swords, there ere no production lines, Kanban or J.I.T style processes, just 30 blacksmiths working on making 13 swords).
I dont have nearly this much trouble expressing myself on my other posts, I wonder what must be going wrong on this post for there to be so many questions on things I thought i covered, I will try harder to make myself more understood.
I might be wrong on this, and it is not a problem if i am correct but i would assume from certain little peculiarities of your language (Dang'd to Heck) a resistance to writing the words damned to hell, and i can think of no reason why someone would do this other than for religious reasons, in which case you no doubt dont subscribe to some scientific knowledge, for example, a certain well known biological theory that explains biodiversity.
as i said its no problem for me, I have religious friends ,my reason for asking is half curiosity and also so that I can gauge the level of scientific and magical understanding, as these posts seem to cover science and magic quite a bit.
Now on to Leliel...
Magic on a large scale is still magic even if everyone or almost everyone of this race has that quality but how do they view it? What are the cultural distinctions of these people and thier use of magic? You mentioned Dogmatic so is it religion or inner quality, divine right or just a law of the universe as if another science to them? Do they take it for granted or question it's origin? Is the dogma unrelated to the magic or dependant upon it?
The "Dogmatic" part references the vast majority's inability to veiw the Iul and those allied with them as pure evil. That's understandable, given that these guys have been fighting for millions of years, except in the process, the Nic'en have resorted to some rather underhanded and dishonorable tatics themselves: For example, the invasion of innocent worlds and the forced consription of their inhabitants into the Nic'en fleet.
As for magic, the Nic'en veiw it as a useful tool, nothing more, nothing less. It has had an effect on their culture though: the warriors are expected to be thinkers and poets as well as fighters and leaders, due to the nature of how intelligence and magic relate.
If you look at the Ravenloft darklords most of them follow established horror traditions (forbidden knowledge, Obsession, Love taken too far, etc all leading to bad things happening), They are also reincarnations of existing icons of horror that have been "reinvented" in order to make them fit into the world a little better (and maybe to avoid lawsuits :D),obvious examples of these are
Strahd von Zarovich and Dracula (Bram stokers vision of the character, as opposed to the historic figure),
Dr Victor Mordenheim and Adam (Victor Frankenstein and his creation),
Vlad Drakov and Vlad "the impaler" Tepes (the historic Dracula),
Frantisek Markov and dr. Moreau,
the three hags of Tepest and pretty much any coven of witches,
and so on.
I feel that the Darklords of the galaxy of mist should should probably follow suit (in that they will be "reinventions" of established characters of the genre, and focus on the more grim or horror based sci-fi elements.
so here is my list of suitable candidates from established sci-fi and settings so far (not including ones posted by other such as the ni'cen), the Ravenloft version will be the one in brackets...
The bene gesserit sisterhood (A group of mental/physical adepts that have infiltrated politics,religion and have undertaken huge breeding programs to produce psionic superhumans, they came very close once only to have it ruined and so in order to remove possible contamination they manipulate politics and religion to foster wars and genocide in order to purge "undesirable" elements, their curse is that they will never again produce a superhuman and to add to their frustration they do produce flawed but very powerful psionics, that either a) don't play ball b) are so flawed as to be useless such as possessing amazing telekinetic abilities but being mentally retarded or unstable)
Skynet (A supercomputer that achieves sentience and then decides it is superior to its creator race and decides to exterminate them all, initially it it offers loyal servants cybernetic "enhancement" which makes them superior in abilities but lacking in free will and abstract thought, they then produce massive automated factories which mass produce robots and cybernetic components so it can exterminate and enslave its creator race, its curse I am unsure of at the moment, but it lives in constant fear)
Emperor Palpatine (A brilliant politician and grandmaster of a secret member of a quasi mystical order of psionic adepts who rise through ranks to by killing their immediate superior, who through manipulating politics and starting a war becomes absolute ruler of his own empire whose rule became increasingly tyrannical to the point that he created a super weapon that is capable of causing a sun to explode and thus wipe out an entire solar system, he uses this threat to blackmail the galaxy into obedience, his curse is that he fears that he will be replaced by his subordinates and sees treachery everywhere, and no matter who he has killed or tortured, the conspiracy remains in place, OR his fears of replacement extend to his apprentice whom he fears has become more powerful than he has and was instrumental in his rise to power and in maintaining his empire, this leads to feelings of inadequacy that if he acted upon would damage his rule and be an obvious show of fear or weakness, thus if he acts he potentially loses his empire if he doesn't he is replaced by his more powerful apprentice, this leads to him delving into potent but self destructive powers in an attempt to be stronger than his apprentice, something he always falls just short of)
Davros (a scientist from a Nazi like culture who is maimed and crippled during a war and creates a genocidal megalomaniacal mutated version of his own race in order to perpetuate himself and to show his superiority to the rest of the universe and seize power, his bitterness and madness have caused the death of billions, and even when confronted with the reality of what he had done, he gladly persisted, his curse is that his creation constantly reject him, and view him as inferior, they keep him in cryogenic storage and thaw him when they want something, he keeps escaping and trying to regain control which he sometimes comes close to doing but is always recaptured, punished and refrozen)
The Chaos Engine (from a old computer game of the same name, one of the most powerful darklords that ironically hails from one of the most primitive worlds is a crude steampunk supercomputer built by a deranged genius that then "incorporates" him into itself so that it can make use of his organic brain and then assimilates all his other inventions, the machine becomes slowly more powerful until it becomes hypersentient and ascends to almost godlike power being able to alter and twist reality, corrupting time and matter in an almost chaotic fashion, despite its power it is schizophrenic and has tenuous control over its power, as its creator struggles against it from within, this darklords curse is that in its struggle to master its powers ,its greatest enemy is a part of itself, and ridding itself of this element would render it impotent.
the Arch inquisitor (A masked religious fanatic from a warhammer 40K styled universe, that devotes his time and considerable army and resources to "purging with holy fire, destroying the body to cleanse the soul" heretics, mutants, psionics in the name of his religion, in his mind heresy exists in many forms, heresy by thought, heresy by deed, heresy by word, heresy by intent, heresy of flesh, and heresy is punished by death but not until a full confession and repentance is given as well as names of co conspirators and heretics (usually involving torture and the naming of family members and friends).
In his mind refusing an order is heresy "work earns salvation", scientific investigation is heresy "to question is to doubt", deviating in anyway from the conventional human form is heresy "man is made in the image of purity", deviating from conventionally behavior is heresy "a closed mind is a pure mind". His curse could be that under mask (metaphorically or actually) he is a mutant or a psionic, they wear masks so as not to show their face to the unclean, however he is so pure that he never shows his face to anyone and ALWAYS wears his mask when around others.
He is filled with self loathing and many of his actions are based on a desire to compensate for his perceived corruption and he thinks that the more he burns and purifies others the closer he comes to purifying and purging himself of his "taint",this could be given a crueler twist in that opposite is occurring and his mutation increases as he becomes more zealous.)
A quick list of other possibilities.
Baron Harkonnen (from the dune universe, a sadistic bloated corrupt and decadent noble who seeks pleasure at the expense of lives)
Mr. Cohagen (from Total recall, a greedy planetary governor who maintains power and lines his pockets by controlling the air supply on a world with no atmosphere, thus making the population legal slaves in his mines as he pays a pittance and charges through the roof for air)
A xenomorph queen and a scientist (a possible double act is an alien hive queen and a scientist that wants to capture it and experiment on it, this gives the double element of the horror of the alien itself and the ruthless cruelty always shown of "the company" that keeps trying to capture it and exploit it, possible curses here I am not sure about though i think something interesting can be done with a possible empathic link between them)
The Hunter ( a big game hunter and safari fanatic that has hunted most of the animal species in his galaxy, in boredom he turned to hunting intelligent life and was pulled into the galaxy of mists, his domain may either be a small planet that is a giant game reserve (offering some good adventures as players are captured stripped of equipment and released only to be hunted by him, and he will of course be fully equipped) or a ship that prowls the space lanes looking for quarry)
and many more probably.
I am at the moment looking into creating a 20 level class for the Bene gesserit styled organisation, i will post more of that as it develops.
until next time
Travis
As I have said before, Fantasy does not have the monopoly on evil, corrupt or darkly tragic beings.