Any suggestions? Share your Wisdom!
It has been 20+ years since I've played in Mystara and I have decided to use Mystara as my 4th edition campaign setting. In fact in my enthusiasm I have already mapped the GD of Karameikos in CC3. I have one concern and that is how to shoehorn the Tiefling, Eladrin and Dragonborn races into the setting.
Eladrin are easy, IMO. Mystara has always had playable Sidhe, and the Eladrin seem to fit that mold fairly well (OTOH, Mystaran Elves don't seem very similar to 4e Elves). Alternately, one could use the Eladrin for one of the various Elven clans/subraces, though IMO none really fits.
Tieflings are not easily adapted, given their background. However, here are a couple of options -- none of them fits perfectly, but most can be adapted:
- The Bahlor Empire in the Hollow World (descendants of Taymor, probably changing the appearance and keeping the racial stats)
- The Diaboli (similar appearance, very different origin)
- The Goatmen of Kavaja (somewhat similar appearance, similar origins)
These are strongly connected to specific locations, but, in general, the type of powers associated with the Tieflings could probably be used for other "cursed races", by ignoring the physical description.
As to the Dragonborn, there's really too little known about them. On one hand, there are many reptilian PC races in Mystara: Malpheggi Lizardmen, Savage Coast Shazak and Gurrash, and the Wallara. On the other, none of these seems similar enough to the Dragonborn, especially if they get odd features and powers (e.g., breath weapons or wings).
So, for a Karameikos-based campaign, Eladrin could certainly be used (the Sidhe court is often found in Alfheim, and Haven and the Lake of Lost Dreams might be other Sidhe sites), Dragonborn could be used with some restrictions as Lizardmen from Malpheggi or from the swamps near the Five Shires, leaving only Tieflings without an immediate potential use.
G.
P.S.: visit the official Mystara fan website, the Vaults of Pandius!
for teh tieflings, i'm just going to do them the same as 2nd and 3rd ed tieflings, no racial and community history as such.
dragon born i still haev no idea, but i'll come up with something.
1) The options offered by GP and stumpy, which are good ones.
2) Don't shoehorn in the races at all. If you want to play in Mystara, why not emphasize the Mystaran races? Replace the new 4e races with Gnomes, Lupins and Rakasta if neccessary.
3) Mystara is a strange place, full of strange and unusual creatures. Use the new 4e races as they are and suggest that they are from a far off land or other planes.
Havard
2) Don't shoehorn in the races at all. If you want to play in Mystara, why not emphasize the Mystaran races? Replace the new 4e races with Gnomes, Lupins and Rakasta if neccessary.
That will become an option if/when creating new races proves easy in 4e. Also, note that in Karameikos Lupins and Rakasta are generally not found, so they may not be especially useful if the campaign is mostly set there.
3) Mystara is a strange place, full of strange and unusual creatures. Use the new 4e races as they are and suggest that they are from a far off land or other planes.
Also, Mystara has a lot of space, especially in the eastern continent of Skothar and in the south-western part of the continent of Davania.
GP
That will become an option if/when creating new races proves easy in 4e. Also, note that in Karameikos Lupins and Rakasta are generally not found, so they may not be especially useful if the campaign is mostly set there.
True. Other than Gnomes, Hutaakans might be an option for non-human PCs in Karameikos. I also had Centaurs populating the Kelvin Moors so that would have been a good option IMC at least. Any other likely races for a Karameikos campaign?
Also, Mystara has a lot of space, especially in the eastern continent of Skothar and in the south-western part of the continent of Davania.
True. Plenty of room for homelands for obscure races should one want it.
Havard
True. Other than Gnomes, Hutaakans might be an option for non-human PCs in Karameikos. I also had Centaurs populating the Kelvin Moors so that would have been a good option IMC at least. Any other likely races for a Karameikos campaign?
Hutaakans are an option if the game takes place after the events in B10 Night's Dark Terror.
Centaurs are possible, indeed, either from the Kelvin Moors or the area between Verge and Rifllian.
Most Wee Folk races are also possible (from the Lake of Lost Dreams, for example), especially Sidhe and Pixies. Brownies, Wood Imps and Leprechauns are also possible.
Lycanthropes are very common. Playable Lycanthropes available in Karameikos include most varieties (wolf, rat, bear and boar).
Goblinoids are common, but not likely in a mostly-human party (due to the traditional enmity between Traladarans and Goblinoids). Otherwise, Orcs, Goblins, and Hobgoblins are common in the Altan Tepee and in the Wufwolde Hills, with Goblins occupying also the Dymrak Woods.
Bugbears are common in the south-western woods, and Orcs and Ogres are found in the Cruth Lowlands and Mountains.
Gnolls are found in small groups in the Altan Tepee.
GP
As to the Dragonborn, there's really too little known about them. On one hand, there are many reptilian PC races in Mystara: Malpheggi Lizardmen, Savage Coast Shazak and Gurrash, and the Wallara. On the other, none of these seems similar enough to the Dragonborn, especially if they get odd features and powers (e.g., breath weapons or wings).
So, apparently the Dragonborn is out, and it has a dragon breath weapon by default. This makes the race mostly unsuitable to use with the existing Mystaran Lizardkin.
OTOH, note that the Wallara (the Mystaran draconic race from the Orc's Head region) is very similar to the 4e Eladrin (their vanish ability is identical to the Eladrin's fey step, and both have a Dex bonus).
GP
So, apparently the Dragonborn is out, and it has a dragon breath weapon by default. This makes the race mostly unsuitable to use with the existing Mystaran Lizardkin.
I haven't read anything about them, but perhaps this race could be linked to the Wyrmsteeth region?
Havard
I haven't read anything about them, but perhaps this race could be linked to the Wyrmsteeth region?
I'd probably link them to some more remote region -- the Wyrmsteeth is already inhabited by some 1000 dragons, it would be really crowded if an entire new PC race lived there.
However, there are several basically unexplored areas of Mystara where a dragon-descended society could thrive. They just would not be especially useful in KW or SC focused campaigns.
GP
I imagine a 4e reboot of Mystara giving Dragonborn and Tieflings their own independent countries -- the equivalent of the Dwarves', Elves', and Halflings' realms of Rockhome, Alfheim/Wendar, and the Five Shires. (BTW, I just realized that it's neat that 4e Gnomes are demoted to the MM, since in Mystara they are a secondary race.) The timeline would be advanced beyond Joshuan's Almanac to give time for those dominions to be founded or discovered. Heck, I'd even stat up official OD&D versions of both races so they could be found in the OD&D Mystara Reality too.
Which leaves the question: where would these countries be located? My favorite of the options I've heard so far:
- A Dragonborn country in the Wyrmsteeth Range. Yet also establishing small non-sovereign settlements and neighborhoods in the KW and SC. I wonder how important it is for them to be located in desert areas like they are in the Core books?
- A Tiefling country in the Hollow World, associated with Taymora of old. But recently "escaped" to the surface and infiltrating the KW and SC.
Travis
P.S. I found it interesting how Cam Banks, an official writer for Dragonlance, said he'd insert those races into Krynn, here. He'd toss out the Core explanation and give them their own campaign-specific origin too.
A Dragonborn country in the Wyrmsteeth Range. Yet also establishing small non-sovereign settlements and neighborhoods in the KW and SC. I wonder how important it is for them to be located in desert areas like they are in the Core books?
In any case, Mystara has plenty of underdeveloped desertic areas (the Great Waste, the Adri Varna, Arypt) that could be used.
A Tiefling country in the Hollow World, associated with Taymora of old. But recently "escaped" to the surface and infiltrating the KW and SC.
While the Tiefling as Bahlor Empire in the HW idea is interesting (indeed, that was the first idea I had for the Tieflings), it would be easier to establish them in the OW if these Taymoran descendants where located in the Shadowdeep instead.
GP
While the Tiefling as Bahlor Empire in the HW idea is interesting (indeed, that was the first idea I had for the Tieflings), it would be easier to establish them in the OW if these Taymoran descendants where located in the Shadowdeep instead.
Not a bad idea. The Shadowdeep has plenty of room for such creatures. OTOH, the Progeny introduced in G:KoM might give basis for having Tieflings, Eladrin and all sorts of other Planetouched characters as quite common in Glantri too. Alphatia might have a similar history...
Havard
OTOH, the Progeny introduced in G:KoM might give basis for having Tieflings, Eladrin and all sorts of other Planetouched characters as quite common in Glantri too. Alphatia might have a similar history...
Sure, but the Progeny approach suits more the AD&D 2e Tiefling.
GP
3) Mystara is a strange place, full of strange and unusual creatures. Use the new 4e races as they are and suggest that they are from a far off land or other planes.
Havard
Sometimes the simplest solutions are, well, the simplest!
Now don't gank me, but I'd love it if instead of trying to shoehorn 4e into Mystara, they revamp Mystara to fit 4e. That is just MY wish.
Familiar names and places but if something needs to change to fit the new stuff, then by all means I'm game.
I really like 4e's setup and concept of races and "points-of-light" which I think fits Mystara well. Mystara was my favorite published CS of all time and I can't wait to see the 4e treatment.
Absolutely! Mystara is the only setting that I find any interest in running though I've played in several other settings.
Now don't gank me, but I'd love it if instead of trying to shoehorn 4e into Mystara, they revamp Mystara to fit 4e. That is just MY wish.
I can agree to that, at least to a degree. I believe it is quite possible to run 4E in Mystara with minimal alterations to the setting. Obviously the fluff provided with 4E would be discarded in favour of the setting fluff without any mechanical changes to the system.
The ideas I had off the top of my head (with little research to develop them, of course) were:
- The migration of elves on Mystara could provide the break between the elves and eladrin of 4th ed. The elves who settled Alfheim (and/or Wendar) could be Eladrin while those clans who broke off from them on the way (Vyalia, Calarii, etc.) would be elves.
- Tieflings at first blush look like a good match for the diaboli, but I'd also conjured up an idea to make them the descendents of the...umm...whatever the race was that used to live in Ylaruam. The Alisayans? I don't really remember, but the key element was that their entire nation was obliterated by the Immortals. That sounds like a good foundation for a cursed race of demon-tainted men and women.
- I'm not 100% on the dragonborn, though. If I had to make something up, I'd say that they lived in some distant land and have been introduced as mercenaries in the employ of Alphatia or the Master of Hule (depending on which direction their homeland is).
Any obvious flaws in those ideas?
-Joni
I'm glad I found this thread because using Mystara as a home for the new 4e was the first thing that leaped into my mind too. I prefer the Known World portion of Mystara, so all my ideas are geared towards making these new critters applicable to that region rather than being too distant to be involved.
That is a good philosophy. Most people play in the Known World.
The migration of elves on Mystara could provide the break between the elves and eladrin of 4th ed. The elves who settled Alfheim (and/or Wendar) could be Eladrin while those clans who broke off from them on the way (Vyalia, Calarii, etc.) would be elves.
Interesting. I don't know enough about the eladrin, but perhaps they could somehow be linked to the Rainbow bridge?
The Vyalia did not break off from Ilsundals migration btw, they arrived in the region centuries before.
Tieflings at first blush look like a good match for the diaboli, but I'd also conjured up an idea to make them the descendents of the...umm...whatever the race was that used to live in Ylaruam. The Alisayans? I don't really remember, but the key element was that their entire nation was obliterated by the Immortals. That sounds like a good foundation for a cursed race of demon-tainted men and women.
The Alasiyans are the current peoples of Ylaruam. You are probably thinking of the Nithians. I don't know enough about the 4e Tieflings I guess, but I am sure you could use this connection. Most Nithians were bannished to the Hollow World, but perhaps the Tieflings are descendants of the corrupted Clergy who deserved special punishment?
I'm not 100% on the dragonborn, though. If I had to make something up, I'd say that they lived in some distant land and have been introduced as mercenaries in the employ of Alphatia or the Master of Hule (depending on which direction their homeland is).
Certainly a possibility. Thyatians also have dragon allies (Retebius and Knights of the Air) so that is yet another possibility here, depending on what the exact origin of the Dragonborn is supposed to be?
Havard
Interesting. I don't know enough about the eladrin, but perhaps they could somehow be linked to the Rainbow bridge?
Man that's going back some. Didn't that Rainbow Bridge have something to do with the adventure 'Tree of Life'? It's been...a while...since I've read that one.
My only motivation was based on the idea that the Eladrin are the folks who stayed true to their old ways and maintained their "faerie kingdom" while the elves are the ones who broke off and became tree-hugging hippies.
I'd have to read up on the ol' Rainbow Bridge before I could conjure up any ties between that and the feywild.
You are probably thinking of the Nithians.
That's them, the Nithians. It just seems like they fit the bill of the 'former empire cursed because of their involvement with dark gods'. If I remember right, the Traladarans are descended from Nithian stock, opening up a chance for Nithlings to appear among those folk. Plus, didn't some Nithian descendant group "recently" claim some territory on the Isle of Dawn? Could be good ground for a new tiefling kingdom over there.
Man that's going back some. Didn't that Rainbow Bridge have something to do with the adventure 'Tree of Life'? It's been...a while...since I've read that one.
That's right!
Well, the historical role for it though is described in Gaz5: The Elves of Alfheim. Basically, there was a realm on the Southern Continent in which elves lived in harmony with nature under the care of Spirits (Fey most likely). However, as they encountered the Men of Blackmoor many became fascinated with technology. Ilsundal and his followers were a sort of "Back to nature" group who left the southern continent trying to return to their old ways in a new land, eventually discovering the Path of the Rainbow.
The Vyalia and other elves had arrived on the northern continent had never abandoned the Old Ways, but were still different from the newcomers.
My only motivation was based on the idea that the Eladrin are the folks who stayed true to their old ways and maintained their "faerie kingdom" while the elves are the ones who broke off and became tree-hugging hippies.
I could see the original Old Way elves such as the Vyalia and the elves of Wendar as Eladrin then and the elves of Alfheim as standard elves. Interesting idea.
I'd have to read up on the ol' Rainbow Bridge before I could conjure up any ties between that and the feywild.
Looking forward to seeing what you can come up with!
That's them, the Nithians. It just seems like they fit the bill of the 'former empire cursed because of their involvement with dark gods'. If I remember right, the Traladarans are descended from Nithian stock, opening up a chance for Nithlings to appear among those folk. Plus, didn't some Nithian descendant group "recently" claim some territory on the Isle of Dawn? Could be good ground for a new tiefling kingdom over there.
Certainly a possibility. The people on the Isle of Dawn are the Thothians. They have been on the Isle of Dawn since the Nithian era, but were not wiped out, because they had not been corrupted. Ofcourse, there could be exceptions... ;)
Havard
Mystara was great ! I still have to full collection of modules. I keep going back to them all the time. The content was far richer (and less expensive) than anything produced at the same time for AD&D. My favorite as always been the Minrothad Guilds! (GAZ9) You got to have pirates in any D&D campaign. How about an organization of thiefling pirates?
Indeed!
My only problem with D&D pirates is that they usually don't have canons. You gotta have canons in a real pirate campaign. I made an exception in my current Freeport/Mystara campaign allowing even flintlock pistols just to preserve the pirate flavour. Although it was never specified, it was probably set some time in Mystara's future so that would help justify it.
But yeah, pirates and the Minrothad Guilds rock
Havard
Indeed!
My only problem with D&D pirates is that they usually don't have canons.
Havard
Eh! Eh! This is D&D afterall. How about Thieflings with low tech spelljammer ships (hover only 10' - not fly) armed with magic missile cannons... The scourge of Mystara on land & sea ...mouhahahahahaha !
Eh! Eh! This is D&D afterall. How about Thieflings with low tech spelljammer ships (hover only 10' - not fly) armed with magic missile cannons... The scourge of Mystara on land & sea ...mouhahahahahaha !
I guess it could work. It depends on how you visualize magic missiles I suppose. I like my canons with a bit more bang than that. Now fire ball canons would be more like it! Ofcourse, there's alot of fun with gunpowder not involving canons too....
Havard
- Eladrin are the sidhe, who have entered the world mostly in Alfheim (where the magic spots are), and who have spread to the areas where you also find elves (with major cities in Alphatia).
- Tieflings are the offspring of humans and diaboli, very few and far between, and socially shunned.
- Dragonborn are the loyal servants of dragons, and are created by them out of their eggs (and viewed as children) similar to the process in Dragonlance. They can be found in a dragon's domain or wandering, if their master has been slain or died of age.
No player wanted to play a tiefling (and I'm not a fan of the race either), so they fit well as minor race, and occasionally serve as plot device. I always liked the draconians and the dragonborn are a viable way to include them without making them absolute villains (there are good dragons, too).
It has been 20+ years since I've played in Mystara and I have decided to use Mystara as my 4th edition campaign setting. In fact in my enthusiasm I have already mapped the GD of Karameikos in CC3. I have one concern and that is how to shoehorn the Tiefling, Eladrin and Dragonborn races into the setting.
Any suggestions? Share your Wisdom!
I kind of like these ideas that came up in the Mystara4E Google group:
1) Flaems (including Common Alphatians), while they do not look like tieflings, might have nearly identical game statistics.
2) Eladrin and elves are castes among the Mystaran elves. Eladrin form the upper and middle classes and are better known to Known World humans (thus the assumption by many that all elves combine fighting skill and magic use). Elves (as defined in 4E) are more reclusive in the Known World setting but more prominent elsewhere.
3) There are many inconsistencies in the depiction of lizardmen in the Mystara setting. Those lizardmen who do not live in swamps and/or seem to be a bit more intelligent and/or civilized than the standard description might actually be dragonborn.