Given what I assume above, I propose that the labels we've been using to indicate where blackmoor existed on post-cataclysmic maps cannot be correct because that location now hovers in space over the massive polar opening.
Take a look at this map of Mystara's North Pole for reference. The light gray shading indicates where the land begins its polar curvature while the dark gray shows the darklands. Although you have to remember that these areas actually wrap around the polar opening and don't 'meet' in the middle like it does on that map.
Havard did a very good job of placing Blackmoor IMO. Take a look at his map of Blackmoor. Compare his map to my polar one (rotate my map 90 degrees counter-clockwise to line them up directionally). His Blackmoor is at the north pole. Assuming Ethengar was the north pole at the time, on his map the 'arrow' indicating the direction of north would point roughly towards the top left corner. The 'North Sea' is really on the east and is now the known as the Far End Ocean.
Anyway, I think it works out very well. Blackmoor lies at 45 degrees north latitude and the Borean Valley where the Beastmen are driven to has the arctic circle run through it.
Thoughts, criticisms, smiley faces...
I've been pondering the different possibilities of having Blackmoor on Brun or Skothar lately and I think I've been missing something. We know that Blackmoor existed on the "Northern Continent" and that it became the current north pole. I am also under the impression that Brun and Skothar were joined together forming a single large land mass but is this truly canon? I believe it is but can't find where this notion comes from. :whatsthis
HW maps?
Indeed, it's mentioned a "Northern Continent" and HW shows them connected (and, besides, Skothar lies at east in modern times). I think Zendrolion is using Hyperborea as the "Northern Continent", however, especially because that's (and Nentsun) the closest region we have nowadays to the North Pole.
Given what I assume above, I propose that the labels we've been using to indicate where blackmoor existed on post-cataclysmic maps cannot be correct because that location now hovers in space over the massive polar opening.
Yes, not all Blackmoorian Empire now lies under the north pole, only part of it (and it doesn't include the city of Blackmoor nor Thonia). But, OTOH, I don't think that the Planetshitf itself obliterated the blackmoorian civilization (since it wouldn't affect so much those ares on modern Skothar), but what caused the planetshift and is described in modern times as the Great Rain of Fire.
Havard did a very good job of placing Blackmoor IMO. Take a look at his map of Blackmoor.
Yes, he did! I wish I could do maps like this one or the others he did ;)
Compare his map to my polar one (rotate my map 90 degrees counter-clockwise to line them up directionally). His Blackmoor is at the north pole. Assuming Ethengar was the north pole at the time, on his map the 'arrow' indicating the direction of north would point roughly towards the top left corner. The 'North Sea' is really on the east and is now the known as the Far End Ocean.
With fits the position that it should be, I think. But I guess Zendrolion's map also placed the original city of Blackmoor at the same spot Havard did ;)
Anyway, I think it works out very well. Blackmoor lies at 45 degrees north latitude and the Borean Valley where the Beastmen are driven to has the arctic circle run through it.
But we still have to think why azcans and oltecs were so close to the north pole, why elven colonists were doing at there, what's the pre-NotE was there, if blackmoorians and azcans weren't dangerously too close (contrary to what canon says about it), etc...
Pehaps blackmoorians fixed the Beagle (or build a Beagle clone) and attempt to use it to explore the HW, but the ship crashed where we have modern Glantri City, and the elves at there were rescuing/salvaging the ship (or fighting for their lives for stay alive after the crash?)? Or blackmoorias and elves build a colony at there in order to study/explore the polar opening?
Thoughts, criticisms, smiley faces...
Here, a smiley face for you :D
HW maps?
Indeed, it's mentioned a "Northern Continent" and HW shows them connected (and, besides, Skothar lies at east in modern times). I think Zendrolion is using Hyperborea as the "Northern Continent", however, especially because that's (and Nentsun) the closest region we have nowadays to the North Pole.
Oh ya! That's what happens when you try to do things from the office!
Yes, not all Blackmoorian Empire now lies under the north pole, only part of it (and it doesn't include the city of Blackmoor nor Thonia).
Comparing the size of Blackmoor to the polar opening I'd say the Blackmoorian Empire no longer physically exists. Looking on Havard's map and then the Google Mystara map it would appear that where the label of Blackmoor is located is roughly where the north pole is now. Thonia on the other hand, looks to have been spared Blackmoor's fate.
But, OTOH, I don't think that the Planetshitf itself obliterated the blackmoorian civilization (since it wouldn't affect so much those ares on modern Skothar), but what caused the planetshift and is described in modern times as the Great Rain of Fire.
My theory is that Blackmoor was laid desolate and radioactive on such a massive scale that the Immortals decided to literally cut that cancerous part of the planet out from the rest. This gives us a reason for the openings.
As for the axial shift, the explosion caused the planet to 'wobble' which in turn wrecked complete havoc on the environment (as if the nuclear winter wasn't bad enough). Again the Immortals stepped in formed the World Spine mountains inside the HW to stabilize the rotation of the planet on the new axis (and line it up with the new poles that they have choosen).
With fits the position that it should be, I think. But I guess Zendrolion's map also placed the original city of Blackmoor at the same spot Havard did ;)
I think you're right actually. It just didn't seem as clear to me I guess.
But we still have to think why azcans and oltecs were so close to the north pole, ...
Yep. I hope we can come up with a suitable solution to this one. It's the greatest difficulty I'm facing with this.
why elven colonists were doing at there,
From what I read last night, the colonists didn't go to the Glantri/broken lands region until after the GRoF. If you find anything that says otherwise (cause I didn't exaclty read everything ;) ) let me know.
what's the pre-NotE was there, if blackmoorians and azcans weren't dangerously too close (contrary to what canon says about it), etc...
Pehaps blackmoorians fixed the Beagle (or build a Beagle clone) and attempt to use it to explore the HW, but the ship crashed where we have modern Glantri City, and the elves at there were rescuing/salvaging the ship (or fighting for their lives for stay alive after the crash?)? Or blackmoorias and elves build a colony at there in order to study/explore the polar opening?
This is a tough question too! I'll have to read more on it again to get it straight.
Here, a smiley face for you :D
Oh ya! That's what happens when you try to do things from the office!
Comparing the size of Blackmoor to the polar opening I'd say the Blackmoorian Empire no longer physically exists. Looking on Havard's map and then the Google Mystara map it would appear that where the label of Blackmoor is located is roughly where the north pole is now. Thonia on the other hand, looks to have been spared Blackmoor's fate.
My theory is that Blackmoor was laid desolate and radioactive on such a massive scale that the Immortals decided to literally cut that cancerous part of the planet out from the rest. This gives us a reason for the openings.
Hm, I see your idea. Indeed, it does make a lot of sense.
But I think HW maps shows the city of Blackmoor more or less where we have the mountain range north of "The Empire of the Great Khan", and that HW mapof modern Mystara shows written "Nentsun Plateau" (that's not the Nentsun Peninsula, that's shown at this map as "Thonian Marches").
As for the axial shift, the explosion caused the planet to 'wobble' which in turn wrecked complete havoc on the environment (as if the nuclear winter wasn't bad enough). Again the Immortals stepped in formed the World Spine mountains inside the HW to stabilize the rotation of the planet on the new axis (and line it up with the new poles that they have choosen).
Another great idea
From what I read last night, the colonists didn't go to the Glantri/broken lands region until after the GRoF. If you find anything that says otherwise (cause I didn't exaclty read everything ;) ) let me know.
I couldn't find anything saying exactly this, but Insuldal elves went straight to Glantri looking for elven colonies, and only after that went towards the Sylvan region (crossing the Ozungan Plateau, where Christian Constantin placed a ancient elven colony and Zendrolion marked at his map as the main elven colony, close to Blackmoor).
They may settled a different region (likely, the Ozungan Plateau) before the GRoF and only then reached Glantri/Broken Lands. But how did Insuldal know about it?
This is a tough question too! I'll have to read more on it again to get it straight.
Assuming, of course, that the NotS is the whole Beagle. It may be only part of if, but then why would it be here?
But I think HW maps shows the city of Blackmoor more or less where we have the mountain range north of "The Empire of the Great Khan", and that HW mapof modern Mystara shows written "Nentsun Plateau" (that's not the Nentsun Peninsula, that's shown at this map as "Thonian Marches").
True. But the texts state numerous times that Blackmoor became the north pole (while I've only found one source for Ethengar as the old north pole; namely the Ethengar entries of the almanacs). Remember that by the time you get to those mountains you have begun to descend into the polar opening's curvature. My answer for the 'names' would be that this is basically as close as one can get to where Blackmoor was, as far as people could tell anyway.
Another great idea
Thank you!
They may settled a different region (likely, the Ozungan Plateau) before the GRoF and only then reached Glantri/Broken Lands. But how did Insuldal know about it?
I'm thinking about a reason involving a change in the direction of north. Pre-GRoF elves would travel northwest along the coasts/mountains of western Davania and Brun but these directions changed afterward. Perhaps this contributed to the divisions forming among Ilsundal's migration.
Assuming, of course, that the NotS is the whole Beagle. It may be only part of if, but then why would it be here?
As I understand it, the ship is under Glantri City and the NotS engine is under the Broken lands, right? I have to check at home but didn't the Immortals move the Beagle here at some point? I believe it was in WotI.
True. But the texts state numerous times that Blackmoor became the north pole (while I've only found one source for Ethengar as the old north pole; namely the Ethengar entries of the almanacs). Remember that by the time you get to those mountains you have begun to descend into the polar opening's curvature. My answer for the 'names' would be that this is basically as close as one can get to where Blackmoor was, as far as people could tell anyway.
I think Zendrolion extended his version of the Blackmoorian Empire all the way into Hyperborea exactly to make that info about Blackmoor becoming the north pole fits it. What you're saying makes a lot of sense, but HW maps shows something different, unfortunately. Unless Thonia is indeed between Nentsun and Jen (I always assumed that's not the "original" Thonia) and Blackmoor used to be north of Nentsun
As I understand it, the ship is under Glantri City and the NotS engine is under the Broken lands, right? I have to check at home but didn't the Immortals move the Beagle here at some point? I believe it was in WotI.
Hm, I'm not sure as well
As I understand it, the ship is under Glantri City and the NotS engine is under the Broken lands, right? I have to check at home but didn't the Immortals move the Beagle here at some point? I believe it was in WotI.
There's lots of stuff I want to comment on in this very interesting thread, but just real quick:
The FSS Beagle crashed in the northern part of the Valley of the Ancients near Blackmoor (with its reactor intact). When Benekander caused the reactor to implode, the entire space ship and its reactor, crew etc disappeared from the face of Mystara. However, the Old Ones, or some other mysterious force turned the reactor core into the NoS and placed it below Glantri.
I'm not sure about the Broken Lands artifacts, but I don't think they were parts of the ship, but simply unstable Blackmoor artifacts.
More on the location of Blackmoor etc later
Havard
The FSS Beagle crashed in the northern part of the Valley of the Ancients near Blackmoor (with its reactor intact). When Benekander caused the reactor to implode, the entire space ship and its reactor, crew etc disappeared from the face of Mystara. However, the Old Ones, or some other mysterious force turned the reactor core into the NoS and placed it below Glantri.
OK. I've read up on it and think I have it straight now.
I checked out WotI and it says that "The resulting energy pulses vaporized all of the starship except the engine core itself. This engine core, according to both WotI and gaz 13, is what lies far beneath Glantri's Great School of Magic and is referred to as the Nucleus of the Spheres. It was placed there by an Old One.
There was actually the other thing that survived the blast, or at least was created during the blast; Rheddrians's Mirror-Shield.
The shadow elves' most powerful shamans are creating a replica of the NotS through the guidance of Rafiel.
I'm not sure about the Broken Lands artifacts, but I don't think they were parts of the ship, but simply unstable Blackmoor artifacts.
This is what I'm concluding too. The question becomes, 'how did it get there so close to the north pole?' My only thought is that it might have been the energy source to a polar research outpost. Maybe they discovered the polar opening?
What you're saying makes a lot of sense, but HW maps shows something different, unfortunately.
The HW maps also shows the old north pole near the Sylvan Realm and Ethengar around 35 - 40 degrees north latitude. ;)
Point is, if we go with the pole being at Ethengar as some text indicates then we must be prepared to say there are inherent flaws with the HW's Outer World, Pre-Cataclysmic Map.
Unless Thonia is indeed between Nentsun and Jen (I always assumed that's not the "original" Thonia) and Blackmoor used to be north of Nentsun
From what I've been able to find Nentsun was southeast of Thonia which would place it along Skothar's then eastern coast (now it's northern coast as the HW's present day map shows). Nentsun was situated around the northern tropic and now lies up by the arctic circle.
Thonia, Nentsun and Jen was in more of a triangular situation with Thonia being in the north, Nentsun to the southeast and Jen to the southwest. Blackmoor was directly north of Thonia.
Btw Wilhelm, you were right. According to gaz 13 elves did colonize the Glantri region before the GRoF. What are we going to go with this if Ethengar is the north pole?
The first (smallest) circle is the Arctic Circle. The next is the 60th latitude and the last is the 45th latitude (the location of Blackmoor and the current north pole).
(Note: the map doesn't show the way land appeared before the Blackmoorian Catastrophe.)
The FSS Beagle crashed in the northern part of the Valley of the Ancients near Blackmoor (with its reactor intact). When Benekander caused the reactor to implode, the entire space ship and its reactor, crew etc disappeared from the face of Mystara. However, the Old Ones, or some other mysterious force turned the reactor core into the NoS and placed it below Glantri.
I'm not sure about the Broken Lands artifacts, but I don't think they were parts of the ship, but simply unstable Blackmoor artifacts.
Thanks for the help, Havard ;)
OK. I've read up on it and think I have it straight now.
I checked out WotI and it says that "The resulting energy pulses vaporized all of the starship except the engine core itself. This engine core, according to both WotI and gaz 13, is what lies far beneath Glantri's Great School of Magic and is referred to as the Nucleus of the Spheres. It was placed there by an Old One.
Hm, I see.
This is what I'm concluding too. The question becomes, 'how did it get there so close to the north pole?' My only thought is that it might have been the energy source to a polar research outpost. Maybe they discovered the polar opening?
That would indeed grab their attention and bring them to such inhospitable place ;)
The HW maps also shows the old north pole near the Sylvan Realm and Ethengar around 35 - 40 degrees north latitude. ;)
Point is, if we go with the pole being at Ethengar as some text indicates then we must be prepared to say there are inherent flaws with the HW's Outer World, Pre-Cataclysmic Map.
Yes, indeed. But most of Havard's and Zendrolion's maps use that idea as well about the placement for the city of Blackmoor
From what I've been able to find Nentsun was southeast of Thonia which would place it along Skothar's then eastern coast (now it's northern coast as the HW's present day map shows). Nentsun was situated around the northern tropic and now lies up by the arctic circle.
Thonia, Nentsun and Jen was in more of a triangular situation with Thonia being in the north, Nentsun to the southeast and Jen to the southwest. Blackmoor was directly north of Thonia.
We do have two advantages using this idea, that are get rid of old Blackmoor region (it would simply contains too many powerful artfacts) and stay true to Master DM's Book's map and where it placed Thonia.
In fact, the current place the fan maps are using changes as much HW maps as this idea. The first put Thonia south of Blackmoor, while the second idea puts Blackmoor north of Thonia.
Btw Wilhelm, you were right. According to gaz 13 elves did colonize the Glantri region before the GRoF. What are we going to go with this if Ethengar is the north pole?
I knew it was there, somewhere ;)
I have no idea, but pehaps the best option is indeed assume that those colonists were there exploring the polar opening ;)
Yes, indeed. But most of Havard's and Zendrolion's maps use that idea as well about the placement for the city of Blackmoor
Havard's maps place Blackmoor at the current north pole and is 'in the gap' stretching between Brun and Skothar. Zendrolion's maps are close but place Blackmoor on Brun. Currently I'm going to try and make both the 'Ethengar as the pre-GRoF north pole' and 'Blackmoor (the City) as the current north pole' work.
We do have two advantages using this idea, that are get rid of old Blackmoor region (it would simply contains too many powerful artfacts) and stay true to Master DM's Book's map and where it placed Thonia.
I would view Thonia's placement on the Master's map as were any remnant peoples from the GRoF ended up. However, that region is now inside the current arctic circle!
In fact, the current place the fan maps are using changes as much HW maps as this idea. The first put Thonia south of Blackmoor, while the second idea puts Blackmoor north of Thonia.
Sorry, I am confused. :embarrass
The text doesn't seem to line up with that map, as many people note. But isn't 'Thonia south of Blackmoor' and 'Blackmoor north of Thonia' the same thing?
I knew it was there, somewhere ;)
I have no idea, but pehaps the best option is indeed assume that those colonists were there exploring the polar opening ;)
I think it may be!
Havard's maps place Blackmoor at the current north pole and is 'in the gap' stretching between Brun and Skothar. Zendrolion's maps are close but place Blackmoor on Brun. Currently I'm going to try and make both the 'Ethengar as the pre-GRoF north pole' and 'Blackmoor (the City) as the current north pole' work.
Sorry, but are you sure about this?
That's what a got from those maps: comparing Havard's maps with HW Pre-Cataclysmic Map, he placed Blackmoor where HW map labeled Blackmoor. Which matches HW Outer World Planetary Map label "Nentsun Plateau". Note how close Havard's maps show Blackmoor close to Tangor ;)
OTOH, Zendrolion Maps show the very same thing, at the very same spot. However, his "Empire of Blackmoor" is larger than the Blackmoor/Thonia region, even including Hyperborea. But that doesn't mean that the city of Blackmoor is in Hyperborea ;)
I would view Thonia's placement on the Master's map as were any remnant peoples from the GRoF ended up. However, that region is now inside the current arctic circle!
Is Master's map Thonia too far from the original Blackmoor to be the original Thonia? I hope it could be at least a part of it.
Sorry, I am confused. :embarrass
The text doesn't seem to line up with that map, as many people note. But isn't 'Thonia south of Blackmoor' and 'Blackmoor north of Thonia' the same thing?
Sure, it is.
What I meant is which label was displaced by each theory.
Sorry, but are you sure about this?
That's what a got from those maps: comparing Havard's maps with HW Pre-Cataclysmic Map, he placed Blackmoor where HW map labeled Blackmoor.
First, to make sure, we are both referring to this Havard map, right? Assuming we are, then compared to the HW map, Havard placed Blackmoor on the other side of the lake right beside the Blackmoor label. I'm judging this based on the two islands above Alphatia, near 'Goblin Kush'. They line up to point toward the current north pole; on Havard's map they line up and point to Blackmoor.
To be fair, you're righter than I thought you were because the HW Blackmoor label isn't that far from Havard's. The yellow arrow is how I was visually determining where the current north pole, labeled "N", should be. The "HW Blackmoor" label is where the HW Pre-Cataclysmic map has it's Blackmoor label.
I'm really confused about why the HW map has Thonia on the 'other side' of Blackmoor.
Which matches HW Outer World Planetary Map label "Nentsun Plateau". Note how close Havard's maps show Blackmoor close to Tangor ;)
OTOH, Zendrolion Maps show the very same thing, at the very same spot. However, his "Empire of Blackmoor" is larger than the Blackmoor/Thonia region, even including Hyperborea. But that doesn't mean that the city of Blackmoor is in Hyperborea ;)
Ahh! I just noticed that the maps from here
start off showing Blackmoor in the same place as Havard's. (The first four maps). The next one (the large one of Mystara at 3010 BC) is what messed me up. He has Blackmoor stretching to the top left of Brun where his previous maps indicate it should stretch towards the top right.
Remember that lining up of the two islands above Alphatia pointing towards Blackmoor? Look at this map again but with that arrow drawn in.
(PS. I hope Havard and Zendrolion don't mind me marking up their maps but it makes discussing this topic much easier. Thanks guys.)
Is Master's map Thonia too far from the original Blackmoor to be the original Thonia? I hope it could be at least a part of it.
Actually, it's closer than I originally thought. I'll touch on this later cause I think Skothar on the HW Pre-map is really messed up.
Sure, it is.
What I meant is which label was displaced by each theory.
:D
I'll touch on this later cause I think Skothar on the HW Pre-map is really messed up.
OK. Now this isn't completely accurate by any stretch of the imagination but this is roughly where the HW pre-GRoF map's Skothar coast lines would end up if transposed onto the HW post-GRoF Skothar. The yellow line shows where the old equator was (according to the HW map) and the red line shows the outline of Skothar as it appears on the HW pre-cataclysmic map.
First, to make sure, we are both referring to this Havard map, right?
Yes, and also these other two maps
To be fair, you're righter than I thought you were because the HW Blackmoor label isn't that far from Havard's. The yellow arrow is how I was visually determining where the current north pole, labeled "N", should be. The "HW Blackmoor" label is where the HW Pre-Cataclysmic map has it's Blackmoor label.
I'm really confused about why the HW map has Thonia on the 'other side' of Blackmoor.
Me too, but I guess this was in order to keep thonia where Master's Map shows it.
Remember that lining up of the two islands above Alphatia pointing towards Blackmoor? Look at this map again but with that arrow drawn in.
Hm, good point. But this don't happen on Zendrolion's map, I guess. Still, good point.
But where Thonia should be, after all?
Actually, it's closer than I originally thought. I'll touch on this later cause I think Skothar on the HW Pre-map is really messed up.
Yes, it is really messed up!
I've done the very opposite you did, drawing modern Skothar over HW map. And this is what I got (I'm using Master's map labels):
One obvious conclusion is that those "Thonia" and "Tangor" labels are truly misleading (I was so sure that Zxyl could be seen at that map!). I believed that Skothar was must more "up" and "left" than it should be. Also, we only had 1/3 of modern Skothar by that time!!!
I guess this indeed fits what you was thinking about Blackmoor, but is Nentsun close enough to north pole in order to Blackmoor be the modern polar opening?
Yes, and also these other two maps
That's exactly where I got the first one from. ;)
Hm, good point. But this don't happen on Zendrolion's map, I guess. Still, good point.
I may have figured out how his map works and asked him to comment. If what I said about it is true then it too fits very well with Havard's maps and my proposals as well. Check out the thread about his maps that you started.
After reading again all that was said, especially your idea of using those islands north or Alphatia as guides to where's north, I guess now I underestand fully your point. And you're indeed also righter that I thought ;)
Ya, I've really found that using maps with notes on them has been very helpful to us.
I've done the very opposite you did, drawing modern Skothar over HW map. And this is what I got (I'm using Master's map labels):
Thanks. This is useful as well.
One obvious conclusion is that those "Thonia" and "Tangor" labels are truly misleading (I was so sure that Zxyl could be seen at that map!). I believed that Skothar was must more "up" and "left" than it should be. Also, we only had 1/3 of modern Skothar by that time!!!
I think it was human error in rotating the map that left out 2/3 of Skothar. It's as if he tried to keep the shape of Skothar but it got twisted up towards the north. He tries to keep Tangor Bay, the Tangor Chain and Zxyl but messes up their positions relative to the rest of Mystara.
I guess this indeed fits what you was thinking about Blackmoor, but is Nentsun close enough to north pole in order to Blackmoor be the modern polar opening?
It appears that the pre-GRoF Nentsun Peninsula would be in Blackmoor but that is now a hole in space. Today, the Peninsula follows the curvature of the polar opening. The Nentsun Plateau would have been beyond the southern borders of Thonia by the looks of it.
I think it was human error in rotating the map that left out 2/3 of Skothar. It's as if he tried to keep the shape of Skothar but it got twisted up towards the north. He tries to keep Tangor Bay, the Tangor Chain and Zxyl but messes up their positions relative to the rest of Mystara.
And he really messed those thinks up! I think we have to choose between keeping those labels and "make" Skothar 3 times larger before 3000BC or ignore those labels and use tiny Skothar. I think the second path keeps things more canon, since that "Thonia" label is completely misplaced anyway. But then we will lose Tangor...
It appears that the pre-GRoF Nentsun Peninsula would be in Blackmoor but that is now a hole in space. Today, the Peninsula follows the curvature of the polar opening. The Nentsun Plateau would have been beyond the southern borders of Thonia by the looks of it.
Well, Nentsun Peninsula and Nentsun Plateau (I'm not even sure if using this name is apropriate...) are two different things for sure ;)
But then Pre-GRoF Nentsun Peninsula (that wasn't a Peninsula by 3000BC) should be larger, right?
Vaults of Pandius FAQ
Where is Blackmoor located?
Bruce Heard's said: Blackmoor -- the travelling legend. If there were archaeologists on Mystara, they would have a devil of time figuring where the darn place was really located. Officially, it's supposed to be up there by the Thonian Marches. Unfortunately, conflicting info has crept into several products, getting in the way of the Thonian theory. The best thing is to assume evidence of Blackmoor's presence elsewhere is the result of later colonisations and outposts. Other communities were also magically displaced (such as a certain ancient tavern in the Broken Lands of the Known World). Definitely a messy development of the World of Mystara!
It should be noted that on the map in the Hollow World boxed set that the names of Blackmoor and Thonia have been reversed (Blackmoor was north of the Empire of Thonia according to all other sources)
That's why would someone switch "Thonia" and "Blackmoor" at that map (besides, of course, the obvious fact that Thonia should be south of Blackmoor). That spot should be under the sea or part of the new north pole now. The only problem with this idea is that those alphatian islands don't point to here, but indeed that spot where Havard placed Blackmoor (that's basically where HW map placed it's "Blackmoor" label).
About Pre-GRoF Skothar, could the ice placed over that land bridge linking Skothar and Brun, through its weight, being forced down (forming all the islands north of Alphatia) and making the other side of that tectonic place go up? Also, Tangor could be rather recent, pehaps being created by chocking with Brun (also forming the mountain chain in western Brun) or another tectonic plate between those continents.
And he really messed those thinks up! I think we have to choose between keeping those labels and "make" Skothar 3 times larger before 3000BC or ignore those labels and use tiny Skothar. I think the second path keeps things more canon, since that "Thonia" label is completely misplaced anyway. But then we will lose Tangor...
I'm really inclined to just say the HW map is "wrong, wrong, wrong". We have misplaced labels, misplaced north pole, incorrect equator, 'tiny' Skothar, etc...
It is useful for seeing where the old land bridges were though.
Well, Nentsun Peninsula and Nentsun Plateau (I'm not even sure if using this name is apropriate...) are two different things for sure ;)
But then Pre-GRoF Nentsun Peninsula (that wasn't a Peninsula by 3000BC) should be larger, right?
Well, you're right, the Pre-GRoF Nentsun Peninsula wasn't a peninsula at all; it was just part of the larger land connection between Skothar and Brun. The plateau is probably more like high altitude land with mountains on top of it. In other words, the 'plateau' is really the valleys that are still fairly high altitude, and there would be a significant drop in altitude as you get close to the ocean; perhaps with mighty cliffs. This would be a very dangerous region for a ship in trouble!
That spot should be under the sea or part of the new north pole now.
Remember that with Mystara there is no such thing as 'under the pole'. Practically speaking there are no physical poles. ;) But I know what you mean.
The only problem with this idea is that those alphatian islands don't point to here, but indeed that spot where Havard placed Blackmoor (that's basically where HW map placed it's "Blackmoor" label).
There is a little hitch to using the lining up of those islands. I'll explain more about this in the Zedrolion map thread.
About Pre-GRoF Skothar, could the ice placed over that land bridge linking Skothar and Brun, through its weight, being forced down (forming all the islands north of Alphatia) and making the other side of that tectonic place go up?
I don't think it works that way. The plate would buckle under the weight; so if you're thinking of it like a see-saw / teeter-totter and you pushed down on one side, instead of the other side going up it would bend or snap around the pivot point. However, the weight of the ice could push the land down somewhat.
Also, Tangor could be rather recent, pehaps being created by chocking with Brun (also forming the mountain chain in western Brun) or another tectonic plate between those continents.
Again, I'm inclined to say the HW map is simply in error regarding Skothar. The events you describe would be so violent that rock would melt under the intense friction. Melting rock makes poor mountains. :D
1) My maps: Since you asked, feel free to play around with them. I am happy if they can contribute to discussions like this. Keep in mind that with the ones you used the south eastern section of Skothar was altered considerably to incorporate the Wilderlands. This should be considered very optional, though the location of Blackmoor seems more likely. The coastline near Blackmoor has also been altered a bit, but this could be attributed to the effects of the Egg of Coot, which raised the water levels around Blackmoor.
2) Does Blackmoor really have to be relocated under the North Pole? Parts of the Blackmoor Empire sure, but Blackmoor city? I like having Blackmoor city end up on the current Peninsula of Nentsun. I think I have seen a map by Lo Zompatore showing Blackmoor on Nentsun using a map similar to the Master Map...
3) The Thonia on the Master Set Map is not the same Thonia as is reffered to in Blackmoor supplements. Rather it is the area whereto Thonians migrated after the GRoF. This was explained in one of the DA modules.
I am reluctant to disregarding the HW map completely, but I am very curious to seeing what you guys come up with!
Havard
Keep in mind that with the ones you used the south eastern section of Skothar was altered considerably to incorporate the Wilderlands. This should be considered very optional, though the location of Blackmoor seems more likely. The coastline near Blackmoor has also been altered a bit, but this could be attributed to the effects of the Egg of Coot, which raised the water levels around Blackmoor.
Thanks Havard! With Skothar as messed up as it is on the HW map I'd be my inclined to use your modified maps anyhow. :D
It makes it easier to integrate other elements. Either way, it's your placement of Blackmoor itself that I really like.
2) Does Blackmoor really have to be relocated under the North Pole? Parts of the Blackmoor Empire sure, but Blackmoor city? I like having Blackmoor city end up on the current Peninsula of Nentsun. I think I have seen a map by Lo Zompatore showing Blackmoor on Nentsun using a map similar to the Master Map...
If you look at one of Wilhelm's maps a few posts back he makes it quite easy to see that what we call the Nentsun Peninsula now corresponds with where Blackmoor was. But again, where Blackmoor was there is only the emptiness of the polar opening. Blackmoor itself isn't under an ice cap, it just isn't anywhere.
My theory is that when Blackmoor was obliterated (and it must have been if the explosion altered the planet's axis!) it created a cancerous sore on the surface of Mystara that the Immortals literally carved out (perhaps to save Urt) forming the new, larger, polar openings.
The Empire of Blackmoor had many outposts and colonies, and stretched farther than the polar openings would reach so it is very possible to have artifacts and ruins in both northern Brun and Skothar.
3) The Thonia on the Master Set Map is not the same Thonia as is reffered to in Blackmoor supplements. Rather it is the area whereto Thonians migrated after the GRoF. This was explained in one of the DA modules.
Thanks for the info. However, even that doesn't make complete sense. Not only does that region end up inside the arctic circle, it becomes part of the polar curvature; highly inhospitable.
I am reluctant to disregarding the HW map completely, but I am very curious to seeing what you guys come up with!
I'm not completely disregarding it because it has some useful information on it. However, Skothar in particular was really botched up IMO.
As a matter of fact, in order to have the equator and tropics lie where they should, I had to trim land from the north and add to the south. The land trimmed from the north still exists but it extends into the polar opening. I had to add ocean to the south, which is beneficial to Davania IMHO.
Indeed, as you pointed, the HW map is somewhat problematic, it's quite hard to mark at it the modern north pole spot.
But do you think it's necessary to bring Nentsun and Hyperborea together (okay, they simply don't met each other because of the hole, but they met before the Immortals digged the hole)? Looking at HW map, we can see that much of the Brun/Skothar bridge (where "Thonia" is marked) would "never exist".
OTOH, it could be the very modern north pole, if we reverse the "Blackmoor" and "Thonia" labels. It would match the concept of "old Thonia" (just south of Blackmoor) and "new Thonia" (Master's map), and "new Thonia" would be a better place to live ;) Also, it would match HW map that shows the mystaran north pole, from inside and outside.
I'm really inclined to just say the HW map is "wrong, wrong, wrong".
Lol! :D
I don't think it works that way. The plate would buckle under the weight; so if you're thinking of it like a see-saw / teeter-totter and you pushed down on one side, instead of the other side going up it would bend or snap around the pivot point. However, the weight of the ice could push the land down somewhat.
Ahn, I see. I'm no expert, so it's likely to be wrong anyway (even because Mystara may even not has tectonic plates at all, and even if it has, the magma layer is so, so thin...). It's just I idea I had after remembering somehing I saw on TV about UK and Scandinavia being in the same plate, and that Scandiania was going up since the last ice age while the british islands were sinking.
Again, I'm inclined to say the HW map is simply in error regarding Skothar. The events you describe would be so violent that rock would melt under the intense friction. Melting rock makes poor mountains. :D
Indeed
OTOH, I just found Zyxl at that map, it's at it's up-left corner. I guess it's more or less where it should indeed be, but we still have 2/3 of Skothar missing...
I'm using more or less the exact position HW map used. In order to make Blackmoor the exact north pole, just move it into the black area ;)
Of course the map you've used is flawed with it's latitudes but otherwise I agree with what you've done. It just goes to show how difficult it is to adjust things for the Mystaranpoles.
The only other thing is how is it different from existing Blackmoor maps? Perhaps Havard can comment on the extend of Blackmoor that has been mapped within the context of Mystara only. I ask this because we may only be able to reconcile the Mystaran elements of Blackmoor and not the entire setting. But who knows, maybe we can?
The only other thing is how is it different from existing Blackmoor maps? Perhaps Havard can comment on the extend of Blackmoor that has been mapped within the context of Mystara only. I ask this because we may only be able to reconcile the Mystaran elements of Blackmoor and not the entire setting. But who knows, maybe we can?
To clarify, the Blackmoor setting has not officially been extended beyond what was provided in the DA-series, also shown on this map. Beyond that, Zimriel shows some of the lands that were mentioned in the text, but never mapped here. I will also add the land of Rhun, which I placed on the island off the coast of Blackmoor on the HW map.
What you probably should ignore is the Wilderlands Setting, which is an independent setting. Although it has some links to Blackmoor (like the Valley of the Ancients), it is hard to justify porting it into Mystara unless the DM is willing to make a few changes to either Mystara or the WL.
I think LoZompatore has done a great job showing what things would look like if the Known World was the North Pole, but I have a few problems with this:
1) There was already at that time a Hollow World gate through the North Pole (although smaller).
And:
2)There are Blackmoor ruins/devices etc in the Known World. Even if these were not the Blackmoor heartlands, it is clear that Blackmoor had colonies there. While Arctic colonies are possible, colonies within the HW gate seems unlikely.
Havard
I really like the placement of the coastlines you drew, Wilhelm! Makes a lot of sense.
Thanks!
I guess it's not very precise, but it helps to underestand the idea of using that Brun-Skothar bridge as Blackmoor.
The only other thing is how is it different from existing Blackmoor maps? Perhaps Havard can comment on the extend of Blackmoor that has been mapped within the context of Mystara only. I ask this because we may only be able to reconcile the Mystaran elements of Blackmoor and not the entire setting. But who knows, maybe we can?
Actually I think it's in fact easier to match Blackmoor maps (including Havard's) with the "reversed label" theory instead of using the place shown by HW.
Assuming that Brun-Skothar land bridge I draw is precise enough, we would have something like this (yellow for making what was lost after creating the openings, the red X marking blackmoor city):
A much better location for it (assuming that my map was imprecise enough) would be closer to that label, which is both more canonical and, at the same time, allow us to use that bay shown at the map:
To clarify, the Blackmoor setting has not officially been extended beyond what was provided in the DA-series, also shown on this map. Beyond that, Zimriel shows some of the lands that were mentioned in the text, but never mapped here. I will also add the land of Rhun, which I placed on the island off the coast of Blackmoor on the HW map.
This much is pretty easy to fit with this idea, I guess ;)
What you probably should ignore is the Wilderlands Setting, which is an independent setting. Although it has some links to Blackmoor (like the Valley of the Ancients), it is hard to justify porting it into Mystara unless the DM is willing to make a few changes to either Mystara or the WL.
Hm, I don't know much about this setting, why is it hard to fit it together with Blackmoor and Mystara?
Do you think it would be difficult to have it together with Blackmoor at this different location for it?
I think LoZompatore has done a great job showing what things would look like if the Known World was the North Pole, but I have a few problems with this:
1) There was already at that time a Hollow World gate through the North Pole (although smaller).
Yes, where we have modern Ethengar now (BTW, is the World Mountain somehow related to the old opening or the Immortal effort to close it?)
2)There are Blackmoor ruins/devices etc in the Known World. Even if these were not the Blackmoor heartlands, it is clear that Blackmoor had colonies there. While Arctic colonies are possible, colonies within the HW gate seems unlikely.
Why unlikely, exactly?
I mean, I do agree that's odd, but is there anything that effectively prevents this idea to be used?
assuming that my map was imprecise enough
Actually, it is, more than I could imagine. I did forget that Nentsun and north Hyperborea are actually aready bent and should actually be somewhat "larger". This means that much more land from that Brun-Skothar brigde was destroyed by the creation of the polar opening, and that it was closer to the centre of the opening (that was originally the spot where the North Pole was). So we should have something like it (yellow shows what was within the land removed from Mystara, red X shows Blackmoor City, white cross shows a possible location for the North Pole spot):
The tiny map in the middle is this one here roughly to scale. The surrounding land was constructed using what you've posted. The circle is basically what was removed to create the new polar opening. Just beyond that circle was used to begin the curvature of the polar opening.
The map is orientated so that up is north (pointing towards Ethengar). You'll also note some red 'pins' on the map above the small Blackmoor map; the top one is the arctic circle at 66.5 degrees north latitude, the next is 60 degrees north and Blackmoor rests on 45 degrees north.
Pehaps I would only make the Nentsun Peninsula not too large, but my opinion may be biased because I'm used to see it rather thinner because of the polar opening curvature and the own planetary curvature, I guess.
A much better location for it (assuming that my map was imprecise enough) would be closer to that label, which is both more canonical and, at the same time, allow us to use that bay shown at the map:
It looks a little far north considering the climate, but otherwise it should work.
The Wilderlands:
Hm, I don't know much about this setting, why is it hard to fit it together with Blackmoor and Mystara?
I really like the Wilderlands, but accepting the Wilderlands as part of the setting means you have to take the entire WL cosmology and 90.000 year history into account. Ofcourse I have some ideas for how to work these things together, but I wouldn't claim them to be canon.
Do you think it would be difficult to have it together with Blackmoor at this different location for it?
Hmmm..hard to say. I think it would be better if it was further south, but beyond that it would mostly be a question of making the coastlines fit. If you need a map of the WL, you can find one here.
Yes, where we have modern Ethengar now (BTW, is the World Mountain somehow related to the old opening or the Immortal effort to close it?)
So, would the old Polar Opening be the size of Ethengar? The World Mountain thing is interesting, as the Ethengar Gaz does suggest the GRoF was what drew the Spirit World closer to Mystara...
Why unlikely, exactly?
I mean, I do agree that's odd, but is there anything that effectively prevents this idea to be used?
I just find it more difficult to accept the presence of lots of Blackmoor artifacts in an area that was just a big hole when Blackmoor was around.
Havard
It looks a little far north considering the climate, but otherwise it should work.
You can ignore the latitudes on that map since they've placed the north pole by the Sylvan Realm. ;)
Ofcourse I have some ideas for how to work these things together, but I wouldn't claim them to be canon.
Alternate options are always good Havard!
So, would the old Polar Opening be the size of Ethengar? The World Mountain thing is interesting, as the Ethengar Gaz does suggest the GRoF was what drew the Spirit World closer to Mystara...
I thought is was the Glantri (Broken lands) catastrophe that created the World Mountian / Spirit World gate?
I just find it more difficult to accept the presence of lots of Blackmoor artifacts in an area that was just a big hole when Blackmoor was around.
It is stated that the old openings were smaller and the general consensus seems to be that it was only the size of Ethenger. That's the assumption that I'm going with too. The NotS was placed under Glantri before the GRoF so the opening can't extend that far.
You can ignore the latitudes on that map since they've placed the north pole by the Sylvan Realm. ;)
Lol, fair enough
The Wilderlands:
Alternate options are always good Havard!
I agree. While there are some problems reconciling the WL with Mystara, they fit extremely well with Blackmoor (which ofcourse is part of Mystara). And we dont have too much official information about what the rest of the world was like during the Blackmoor Era do we? I'm using the Wilderlands to flesh out the southern parts of Skothar and James Mishlers timeline to flesh out the other continents in this period.
Working out a unified timeline is hard, but I'm thinking about linking the Markrab to the Carnifex and the Demon Empires to the Nightmare Dimension. Outer Being Servitors are also an option for some of these. The Gods of the Wilderlands will be Immortals ofcourse, most of which would have faded or left by the post GRoF era. The Wilderlands uses RW pantheons for the most part. Perhaps many of them left for LaTerre?
I thought is was the Glantri (Broken lands) catastrophe that created the World Mountian / Spirit World gate?
Hmmm...I could be wrong.
It is stated that the old openings were smaller and the general consensus seems to be that it was only the size of Ethenger. That's the assumption that I'm going with too. The NotS was placed under Glantri before the GRoF so the opening can't extend that far.
Okay, just wondering about that one. Good point about the NotS being placed there before the GRoF.
BTW: I hope I'm not coming off as too negative. I am still not convinced placing the Known World at the North Pole is a good idea, but I am enjoying the discussion!
Havard
BTW: I hope I'm not coming off as too negative. I am still not convinced placing the Known World at the North Pole is a good idea, but I am enjoying the discussion!
Havard
I have to admit that I'm not 100% sold on it either. Things work out much easier when I was using the vicinity of the Sylvan Realm as the north pole as portrayed by the HW maps. I find it humorous that when I suggest things to try to make the KW pole work I get comments saying the HW map suggests something else. :D
My goal would be to make all (or as much as possible) of canon true. We have a situation where maps are not in agreement with text, and text is inconsistent by placing so much activity in areas so close to what it claims to be the north pole.
The only reason I'm even trying make this work is because so much great fan-created work also uses the KW pole and I want my work to be compatible.
I really like the Wilderlands, but accepting the Wilderlands as part of the setting means you have to take the entire WL cosmology and 90.000 year history into account. Ofcourse I have some ideas for how to work these things together, but I wouldn't claim them to be canon.
Which ideas, exactly?
Hmmm..hard to say. I think it would be better if it was further south, but beyond that it would mostly be a question of making the coastlines fit. If you need a map of the WL, you can find one here.
As Hugin said, the climate isn't really a problem. I guess that it could be placed around that landlocked sea "down" and "right" of the label "Thonia" (which we are reversing with "Blackmoor")
So, would the old Polar Opening be the size of Ethengar? The World Mountain thing is interesting, as the Ethengar Gaz does suggest the GRoF was what drew the Spirit World closer to Mystara...
I thought is was the Glantri (Broken lands) catastrophe that created the World Mountian / Spirit World gate?
Yes, but the spirits were attracked to Ethengar because of (or while) the GRoF. TheGlantri Catastrophe just made the link deeper.
I wonder if this link between Ethengar and the spirits have something to do from where the Immortals took land from in order to close the original polar opening. And pehaps the Mountain itself was alredy there, marking the exact spot the north pole used to be, and the Black Sand appeared after the Glantri Catastrophe?
Working out a unified timeline is hard, but I'm thinking about linking the Markrab to the Carnifex and the Demon Empires to the Nightmare Dimension. Outer Being Servitors are also an option for some of these.
Hm, I'm really interested about Markrab and it's connection to the Carnifex. What is(are) the race(s) that inhabits this nation?
The Gods of the Wilderlands will be Immortals ofcourse, most of which would have faded or left by the post GRoF era. The Wilderlands uses RW pantheons for the most part. Perhaps many of them left for LaTerre?
Where can I read more about them? Is there a norse pantheon too?
I have to admit that I'm not 100% sold on it either.
Neither am I, but the GAZ indeed say that, so it should be the truth...
Which ideas, exactly?
Well, the main challenges would be:
* Fitting it onto the map: My map already solved this.
* What to do with the WL Gods: They were probably just Immortals who later faded or departed, as mentioned.
* Who were the Markrabs: See below
* Who are the demons of the Demon Empires: See below
As Hugin said, the climate isn't really a problem. I guess that it could be placed around that landlocked sea "down" and "right" of the label "Thonia" (which we are reversing with "Blackmoor")
Yeah, I figured as much
Yes, but the spirits were attracked to Ethengar because of (or while) the GRoF. TheGlantri Catastrophe just made the link deeper.
I wonder if this link between Ethengar and the spirits have something to do from where the Immortals took land from in order to close the original polar opening. And pehaps the Mountain itself was alredy there, marking the exact spot the north pole used to be, and the Black Sand appeared after the Glantri Catastrophe?
I know Mystaros wrote something on this, but I wasnt able to find the quote righ now...
Hm, I'm really interested about Markrab and it's connection to the Carnifex. What is(are) the race(s) that inhabits this nation?
The Markrab is an evil race which haunted the ancient history of the Wilderlands. They used demons as servitors. They arrived in the Wilderlands ca 50.000 BC (the way I aligned the timelines anyway), so I figured it would be best to connect them to some of the ancient evils of Mystara.
Whether their demonic servants should be actual demons or perhaps creatures from the Nightmare Dimension is also an open question. I am tempted to suggest the latter, but then not much is available on them in the sources I have available.
Where can I read more about them? Is there a norse pantheon too?
Check out the Player's Guide to the Wilderlands. It is well recommended and shouldnt be too expensive. If you get really into it you can check out the more expensive boxed set, which is a real treat
Yeah, there is a norse pantheon, so there will be another Thor around. I dont see a big problem with that, but some of those guys could be replaced by some of the Immortals/Gods from the D20 Blackmoor Setting if it becomes problematic.
Neither am I, but the GAZ indeed say that, so it should be the truth...
But don't the same Gaz'es say that Blackmoor was in the Known World at the same time? Or are those different sources?
Right now it looks like we have some sources saying:
*The Known World was the North Pole before the GRoF
* Blackmoor was in the Known World before the GRoF
* Blackmoor was on Skothar before the GRoF (-->implies: had colonies in the Known World)
* Blackmoor became the North Pole after the GRoF
* Blackmoor remainders are found in Glantri, Darokin (Fenhold), Broken Lands and the Northern Reaches.
I think reconciling all of these would be tricky...
Havard
Right now it looks like we have some sources saying:
*The Known World was the North Pole before the GRoF
* Blackmoor was in the Known World before the GRoF
* Blackmoor was on Skothar before the GRoF (-->implies: had colonies in the Known World)
* Blackmoor became the North Pole after the GRoF
* Blackmoor remainders are found in Glantri, Darokin (Fenhold), Broken Lands and the Northern Reaches.
I think reconciling all of these would be tricky...
Havard
I think we may have to apply the 'what comes later supersedes what came before' philosophy. Early products used different dates for the GRoF, for instance. Another point to remember is that before the introduction of the name 'Mystara', the entire continent or even world was referred to as the Known World.
We really need to weigh the 'evidences' so-to-speak. Do we stick with the PWA Ethengar entries as definitive (source of the Ethengar as north pole) and deal with all the resulting difficulties due to activities and events surrounding the Known World proper, or do we stick with the HW map's indication of the Sylvan Realm as north pole?
I've tried to explore the KW north pole option but it requires a stretch of the imagination to allow all the other pre-GRoF information to work properly. I haven't given up completely, mind you, but it appears that the information that makes a KW north pole very difficult far exceeds the information that says the KW, as we understand the term, the north pole.
What do others say?
What do others say?
Well, I'm not that sure if using the KW as the north pole is so problematic (or rather, if placing the north pole at the Sylvan Realm would really solve enough problems). Some of these infos contradicting it (especially KW as Blackmoor) were already disproven by canon itself.
I guess we could explain the elven presence in Glantri using the same excuse for the blackmoorian artfacts (a blackmoorian/elven scientific colony at north pole for studying the polar opening and/or how part of the Beagle went there).
And the oltec/azcan problem, I guess that even placing the north pole at the Sylvan Realm wouldn't help to make the region a tropical jungle...
Right now it looks like we have some sources saying:
*The Known World was the North Pole before the GRoF
* Blackmoor was in the Known World before the GRoF
* Blackmoor was on Skothar before the GRoF (-->implies: had colonies in the Known World)
* Blackmoor became the North Pole after the GRoF
* Blackmoor remainders are found in Glantri, Darokin (Fenhold), Broken Lands and the Northern Reaches.
I think reconciling all of these would be tricky...
Havard
I've gone through the gaz history sections and timelines so now I'll comment.
*The Known World was the North Pole before the GRoF
Most only say that the KW was in an ice age or covered in ice sheets. Gaz 6 says the continent of the KW nations is the north pole. Only the Ethengar gaz comes right out and says that it was the north pole. Gaz 3 actually says that the GRoF caused Glantri's ice age.
* Blackmoor was in the Known World before the GRoF
I can't find this anywhere. Can you recall where it was? Gazes 5 and 9 mentions elven survivors of a Blackmoor colony fleeing to newly formed Broken Lands but gaz 13 says there were elves in Glantri before the GRoF.
* Blackmoor was on Skothar before the GRoF (-->implies: had colonies in the Known World)
I've heard this many times as well but again I can't find it.
Two gazes mention that Blackmoor was located in the far northeast; is that the references?* Blackmoor became the North Pole after the GRoF
This seems quite consistent. Gaz 6 goes even further to say that Blackmoor, the seat of a flourishing civilization, becomes the north pole.
* Blackmoor remainders are found in Glantri, Darokin (Fenhold), Broken Lands and the Northern Reaches.
I'm aware of the Glantri and Broken Lands ones but what are the Darokin and NR ones? I find those interesting.
Something else I found interesting is that Gaz 7 has Gnomes and Dwarves move into the Northern Reaches in 2500 BC before Gaz 6 has modern dwarves created in 1800 BC. Does this mean the Moulder Dwarves are the descendants of the original Dwarf Race?
Gaz 7 has Gnomes and Dwarves move into the Northern Reaches in 2500 BC before Gaz 6 has modern dwarves created in 1800 BC. Does this mean the Moulder Dwarves are the descendants of the original Dwarf Race?
That makes sense to me. It would explain why the Modriswerg are mentioned as using magic.
IIRC, it is later said that some of the original (Kogolor) dwarves were removed from the NR, changed into the modern magic-resistant (Rockborn) dwarf by Kagyar and placed in Rockhome. The remaining NR dwarves were given false memories to think that they had been exiled from Rockhome, thus becoming the Modriswerg.
Roger
I've gone through the gaz history sections and timelines so now I'll comment.
*The Known World was the North Pole before the GRoF
Most only say that the KW was in an ice age or covered in ice sheets. Gaz 6 says the continent of the KW nations is the north pole. Only the Ethengar gaz comes right out and says that it was the north pole. Gaz 3 actually says that the GRoF caused Glantri's ice age.
There are some inconsistencies around: GAZ1, for example, says that the GRoF happens in 2,000 BC - a thousand years later (DA modules also hold similar mistakes).
Anyway, all the GAZs agree on the fact that:
* The KW was in an Ice Age before the GRoF; moreover GAZ12 (and the PWAs) say also that Ethengar was the old North Pole;
* Blackmoor freezes after the GRoF - most GAZs agree on the fact that Blackmoor becomes exactly the North Pole after GRoF;
* The KW slowly become habitable as ice sheets recede to the new poles after GRoF.
GAZ3's sentence (the GRoF causes and Ice Age in Glantri) however needs an explaination, given also the fact that elves live in an icy country BEFORE the 1,700 BC catastrophe. Naturally we've to take into account the high altitude of Glantri's highlands; in fact, GAZ13 says for example that, while ice sheets recede from the KW after 3,000 BC, Glantri suffers a temporary ice age.
* Blackmoor was in the Known World before the GRoF
I can't find this anywhere. Can you recall where it was?
"Tribal Migrations in the Known World" map from GAZ10. There, ancient Blackmoor is located at Urzud.
Timeline in DotE (Dungeon Master's book) also seems to agree on this, but we should beware becouse there "Known World" means "outer world".
* Blackmoor was on Skothar before the GRoF (-->implies: had colonies in the Known World)
I've heard this many times as well but again I can't find it.
The Skothar location is found in the HW precataclysmic map. Indeed, if we consider Skothar location, post-GRoF Blackmoor actually seems to be positioned toward north or north-east in regards to the KW.
I'm aware of the Glantri and Broken Lands ones but what are the Darokin and NR ones? I find those interesting.
You can find hints about Darokin's one in CM9; it's basically a sunken city in the marshes of Fenhold dominion - the module doesn't say the city was Blackmoorian, it only gives this hint as a possible suggestion to DMs of the city's origins.
Instead the NR's one IIRC comes from the Drangonlord Trilogy.
Moreover, we should also mention Dragonwatch Keep, also from Dragonlord Trilogy, located in the northern extent of the Endworld Line.
Something else I found interesting is that Gaz 7 has Gnomes and Dwarves move into the Northern Reaches in 2500 BC before Gaz 6 has modern dwarves created in 1800 BC. Does this mean the Moulder Dwarves are the descendants of the original Dwarf Race?
Yes, HW is rather clear about that, as gawain already said. ;)
There are some inconsistencies around:
Ya, that's more or less why I went back through them; to find out what the inconsistencies were and where they were. ;) (This time I made notes!)
GAZ1, for example, says that the GRoF happens in 2,000 BC - a thousand years later (DA modules also hold similar mistakes).
I noticed that one and 'dismissed' it as superseded by, well, everything else. I didn't know the DA modules had that date though.
I was a little surprised at the general level of consistency though. For some reason I remembered things being less so. Maybe it's just an age issue.
GAZ3's sentence (the GRoF causes and Ice Age in Glantri) however needs an explaination, given also the fact that elves live in an icy country BEFORE the 1,700 BC catastrophe. Naturally we've to take into account the high altitude of Glantri's highlands; in fact, GAZ13 says for example that, while ice sheets recede from the KW after 3,000 BC, Glantri suffers a temporary ice age.
This is a problem indeed. From what I understand (and again correct me if I'm wrong) it seems there was an elven colony in Glantri pre-GRoF and then the survivors fled to the new created Broken Lands where they caused the 1700 BC explosion. How do you feel about having that original elven colony much closer to Blackmoor.
It is mentioned that an elven colony was on the fringes of the Blackmoor lands. What if this was the main colony of elves 'waring and trading' with Blackmoor but they also had a research/experiment outpost in Glantri? When Blackmoor was destroyed perhaps those surviving from the main colony traveled to join the outpost.
Could Glantri's 'ice age' be relative to everywhere around it? Lands surrounding Glantri thaw much more rapidly in comparison. Kind of weak, I know.
"Tribal Migrations in the Known World" map from GAZ10. There, ancient Blackmoor is located at Urzud.
Could we interpret this as the location of the 'Blackmoorian Beastmen'?
Timeline in DotE (Dungeon Master's book) also seems to agree on this, but we should beware becouse there "Known World" means "outer world".
Agreed with you on this.
The Skothar location is found in the HW precataclysmic map. Indeed, if we consider Skothar location, post-GRoF Blackmoor actually seems to be positioned toward north or north-east in regards to the KW.
True. However, I seem to find 'Blackmoor becomes the north pole' a fairly consistent statement from most all sources.
You can find hints about Darokin's one in CM9; it's basically a sunken city in the marshes of Fenhold dominion - the module doesn't say the city was Blackmoorian, it only gives this hint as a possible suggestion to DMs of the city's origins.
Instead the NR's one IIRC comes from the Drangonlord Trilogy.
Moreover, we should also mention Dragonwatch Keep, also from Dragonlord Trilogy, located in the northern extent of the Endworld Line.
Thanks.
Yes, HW is rather clear about that, as gawain already said. ;)
Actually, it makes clear that the Kogolor dwarves came from Blackmoorian age dwarves but it says all dwarves were transplanted. Still, the inference is quite strong. For some reason, I recall all kinds of discussion in the past about the origins of the Moulder Dwarves. (Maybe it was the Dark Elves actually; age thing kicking in again ;) ).
Actually, it makes clear that the Kogolor dwarves came from Blackmoorian age dwarves but it says all dwarves were transplanted. Still, the inference is quite strong.
Okay, I just looked it up. Kagyar took ALL (Kogolor) dwarves from NR, where they had originally migrated to (from where?), half he put in the HW, unchanged. The rest he modified, most were placed in Rockhome where the Gnomes already were (Rockborn dwarves), some were placed in the old NR communities (becoming Modriswerg). All OW dwarves were given false memories to think that the Modriswerg were exiled from Rockhome.
So... Even the Modriswerg were modified (Modriswerg =/= Kogolor)... BUT 4k years of seperation created two drastically different cultures, which would not normally happen otherwise, given a dwarf's disdain for change. (Which we all know is why all OW dwarves (except for Moulder and SC) behave, generally, the same and speak the exact same dialect of the smae language.
The one thing that it does not explain is why, since the Modriswerg were given the same "resistance" modification, the Modriswerg are apparently (inferred, but not explicitly stated) capable of arcane magics.
Just for clarification,
Roger
So... Even the Modriswerg were modified (Modriswerg =/= Kogolor)... BUT 4k years of seperation created two drastically different cultures, which would not normally happen otherwise, given a dwarf's disdain for change. (Which we all know is why all OW dwarves (except for Moulder and SC) behave, generally, the same and speak the exact same dialect of the smae language.
Not really disagreeing with your main points here Roger, but I think you are presenting a very limiting view of dwarves. Although I agree that dwarves are generally very conservative about their culture, language and religion, I wouldnt rule out some fairly dramatic changes over 4000 years, though probably not as different as with the Kogolor and Morigsvergs. I'd also suggest that dwarven cultures and language arent the same all over the entire world (though perhaps in the extended Known World region).
I guess I'd just like to have a little more room for different dwarven cultures in the different corners of Mystara.
Havard
Not really disagreeing with your main points here Roger, but I think you are presenting a very limiting view of dwarves. Although I agree that dwarves are generally very conservative about their culture, language and religion, I wouldnt rule out some fairly dramatic changes over 4000 years, though probably not as different as with the Kogolor and Morigsvergs. I'd also suggest that dwarven cultures and language arent the same all over the entire world (though perhaps in the extended Known World region).
Well, there are some dwarven communities, especially in the Savage Coast, there are fairly different (e.g., the Montoya dwarves).
Other than that, though, I'd limit dwarven cultural variance, not only because of their cultural conservatorism, but also because we know that all surface dwarve, except the Modrigswerg, come from Rockhome, and left in relatively recent times.
GP
1) DotE, player's Guide to Alphatia, page 5 or so:
The Alphatians concluded that this planet had shifted the axis of its rotation no more than two thousand years before, and within the last two or three hundred years the ice had receded from this fair island — and no new human settlements of any consequence had been established here in the meantime. (Oh, there were some human settlements — quickly conquered, their populations absorbed into the new Empire as slaves.)
Which gives a point to the "Known World being the old North Pole" hypothesis. Notice, also, that from the TM1 table about mountain ranges, the Kerothar mountains are very high, some 25000' (7500 m) or so. It possibly took many canturies for the polar glaciers to melt and free the range and most of the sourrounding plains, from the ice shelf.
2) GAZ 5 DM's book, "History of Alfheim" paragraph:
When Blackmoor was young, the elves were old. Some 5,000 years ago, elven civilization sprang up on the other side of the world from Blackmoor, nearly 2,000 years before Blackmoor became great. The elven civilization originally developed in a southern continent that now sits under the southern polar icecap.
Which gives a point to the "Blackmoor being the present North Pole" hypothesis. Maybe Evergrun was not at the exact antiphode from Blackmmor, but it seems reasonable to have both civilizations under the polar icecap, now (IIRC the HW boxed set says more or less the same).
3) Kingdom of Nithia supplement, DM's Tome, "History" paragraph:
Over the next thousand years, the self-proclaimed Nithians rediscovered the technologies necessary to build a nation, and later an empire.
Nithian adventurers began to explore the world — including the fell lands of Blackmoor — and return with the spoils and artifacts of their exploration.
Which gives a point to "Blackmoor not being the present Known World" hypothesis. Blackmoor seems to be located quite far from Nithia/Ylaruam.
On another matter, I do not think that having so many Blackmoorish artefacts near the old North Pole (i.e. the Known World) should be quite an issue. An high tech society such as that of the Elven colonies/Blackmoor should be able to settle the ice shelf and live there without great problems.
These settlements should be something similar to the McMurdo or Vostok Antarctica's bases of our world (and even more advanced, likely). Maybe, after the GRoF, the frozen enviroment of the old North Pole helped in the preservation of many of the artifacts that were left after the fall of the main civilization, who knows...
Maybe Evergrun was not at the exact antiphode from Blackmmor, but it seems reasonable to have both civilizations under the polar icecap, now (IIRC the HW boxed set says more or less the same).
I view such that Evergrun was located somewhere in the region of the new antarctic polar opening. Thus, when the opening was created, Evergrun was removed.
Which gives a point to "Blackmoor not being the present Known World" hypothesis. Blackmoor seems to be located quite far from Nithia/Ylaruam.
Actually I have no problems with 'lands of Blackmoor' still existing. Blackmoor, the empire, stretched far beyond the polar opening. Granted, the city and central core of the empire was obliterated and removed to make way for the polar opening, but there still survived portions of that civilization on the fringes that fell into a great dark age, in a sense. Come to think of it, and a little ironically, the Blackmoorian survivors would become barbarians driven out of their lands by the changing climate (similar to the way Blackmoor drove to beastmen from their homelands).
On another matter, I do not think that having so many Blackmoorish artefacts near the old North Pole (i.e. the Known World) should be quite an issue.
I'm of the same opinion here. Their combined magical and technological abilities could make polar exploration and research quite feasible. Plus, there's the NotS that could've drawn them. After all, it continued to draw people to Glantri to the present day!
I'm really inclined to just say the HW map is "wrong, wrong, wrong". We have misplaced labels, misplaced north pole, incorrect equator, 'tiny' Skothar, etc...
...think it was human error in rotating the map that left out 2/3 of Skothar.
Actually a math error in that the artist did not know how to properly rotate a sphere - which admittedly isn't something most people know how to do. Look at Hugin's map with the red outline of pre-Rain Skothar, see the yellow equator. Notice how it perfectly hits the new equator at exactly the center of the map? The artist did a simple trace and rotate and whatever fell off the map, fell of the map. Check out LoZompatore's maps and mine that have spherical rotations.
On the matter of North Poles, I suggest a clarification of which North Pole we mean: the northern aperture, astronomical true north by planetary rotation, and magnetic/magical north. In the present we know that the first two now coincide (~ish), but it need not have done so in the past. Given the description of Ka's exploration, it is possible that the old northern aperture was in a non-glaciated region.
I would suggest that Ethengar should be the old magnetic north. Using a little bit of Lost mythology, if the Spirit World is affected by electromagnetic fields, and the World Mountain is the magnetic pole, its a natural reason for them to be anchored to one another.
If this is true, then either the magnetic poles are now relocated, or compass navigation has a radically different interpretation on Mystara (workable but different).
I favor the old northern aperture being the Adri Varma Plateau, which is the plug. One bonus reason for chosen this: the teleportation ring to the Carnifex prison plane in M3 could have been intended to be in the magic dead zone on the lip of the aperture. (Lock 'em away and throw away the key!). The other old aperture is then in the middle of the Far End Ocean.
These days, I go with AVP also as the old astronomical NP, for which Oceansend sits right on the Arctic Circle. "Old Hyborea" is then the near Midlands north of the Black Mountains.
On elves:
I view such that Evergrun was located somewhere in the region of the new antarctic polar opening. Thus, when the opening was created, Evergrun was removed.
Evergrun needn't be removed. Look at the southernmost point on the Pelatan-Vulcanian coast. Evergrun is somewhere there. It was not destroyed swiftly, it just froze over and the elves moved on to Grunland (Vulcania).
These settlements should be something similar to the McMurdo or Vostok Antarctica's bases
I concur. PErhaps even competing elven and human expeditions. GazF uses something of this as a backstory.
but Insuldal elves went straight to Glantri looking for elven colonies, and only after that went towards the Sylvan region
It took Ilsundal a long time just to reach the Savage Coast, but he crossed the Sind quickly, and hauled tail across the entire Midlands in record time. There is no textual evidence that the bulk of the migration entered Glantri, only clans that left the Returnists and stragglers from the second migration.
I'll offer one hypothesis for why the migration did what it did: the shift in the planetary axis was a centuries long wobble that caused the axis to precess before finally stabilizing (such as the current suggestion for the reason for the HW mountains). The elves following their beloved Star Maps would have been hopelessly in trouble as the star positions changed year to year. By the time the axial torque had ceased, they were able to recompute, realized their error and made haste.
On Thonia:
Master DM's Book's map and where it placed Thonia.
To paraphrase Frank, The Master's book did not move Thonia there, it was always there. Master's Thonia = Chthonic region
Thonia as in the Great Empire of Thonia, parent civilization to Uthar's Blackmoor, was an improvization by David Ritchey, the work horse author of DA1. Arneson's Blackmoor setting never had a name for the larger empire/kingdom. Ritchey was trying as best he could to tie DA's notes with the then current D&D default world. Thonia's name was appropriated for this purpose, under the explicit conceit that the Thonians were the ancestors to the Thyatians (and thus Blackmoor = Broken Lands). It was during this early production period when the date for the GRoF was assumed 3,000 year past (cf. Gaz1-2).
-OldDawg
:D The artist did a simple trace and rotate and whatever fell off the map, fell of the map. Check out LoZompatore's maps and mine that have spherical rotations.
That's what I figured the artist did. You guys did an amazing job in rotating the map; a very difficult thing to do. I had to cheat and use an actual globe! ;)
On the matter of North Poles, I suggest a clarification of which North Pole we mean: the northern aperture, astronomical true north by planetary rotation, and magnetic/magical north. In the present we know that the first two now coincide (~ish), but it need not have done so in the past. Given the description of Ka's exploration, it is possible that the old northern aperture was in a non-glaciated region.
We don't have any canon info regarding magnetic north, do we? I strictly focus on the rotational axis north (i.e. the pole). I figure the aperture north (i.e. where the polar opening's curvature begins, if I understand what you mean by that) begins somewhere around the 76°N and S latitudes. The HW maps calls this 90° which makes no sense at all.
I would suggest that Ethengar should be the old magnetic north. Using a little bit of Lost mythology, if the Spirit World is affected by electromagnetic fields, and the World Mountain is the magnetic pole, its a natural reason for them to be anchored to one another.
Although I actually like this idea, it makes the Oltec/Azcan problem more difficult by driving the arctic circle even closer to them.
If this is true, then either the magnetic poles are now relocated, or compass navigation has a radically different interpretation on Mystara (workable but different).
From what I understand the magnetic field would adjust itself because it is connected to the rotation of the planet. Incidentally, it is believed Earth's magnetic field has reversed polarity regularly in our past. It could be that Mystara has experienced similar events.
I favor the old northern aperture being the Adri Varma Plateau, which is the plug. One bonus reason for chosen this: the teleportation ring to the Carnifex prison plane in M3 could have been intended to be in the magic dead zone on the lip of the aperture. (Lock 'em away and throw away the key!).
Again, I love the idea but it causes problems with other (extensive) canon notions that I think I may have to stay with Ethengar.
The other old aperture is then in the middle of the Far End Ocean.
This is what the globe maps indicate as well and my fixing for the approximate location of Evergrun.
These days, I go with AVP also as the old astronomical NP, for which Oceansend sits right on the Arctic Circle. "Old Hyborea" is then the near Midlands north of the Black Mountains.
I've discussed this here and elsewhere, but Mystara is larger than we give it credit for. The hex maps we use in our games indicate a much larger world then we use for our global maps. Because of this the arctic circle spans more territory than we allow for it. This map shows where our hex maps suggest the arctic circle, 60° N and 45° N latitudes should have been pre-GRoF (using the Ethengarian north pole location).
On elves:
Evergrun needn't be removed. Look at the southernmost point on the Pelatan-Vulcanian coast. Evergrun is somewhere there. It was not destroyed swiftly, it just froze over and the elves moved on to Grunland (Vulcania).
Canon states it as becoming the south pole and now there is only a very big hole there. It also suggests that Evergrun was a separate 'continent' from Davania. That isn't necessarily the way it has to be, but for now I'm really making an effort to follow the published works.
I'll offer one hypothesis for why the migration did what it did: the shift in the planetary axis was a centuries long wobble that caused the axis to precess before finally stabilizing (such as the current suggestion for the reason for the HW mountains). The elves following their beloved Star Maps would have been hopelessly in trouble as the star positions changed year to year. By the time the axial torque had ceased, they were able to recompute, realized their error and made haste.
Excellent, that is very similar to what I was thinking; planetary wobble havoc with the magnetic field really messing up their navigation. I also surmise that this confusion aided in the migration forming opposing factions.
On Thonia:
Thanks for the back story clarification.
Do we want them to move there after the planet's axial shift or do we want to have a mechanism that allowed them to exist there despite the northern climate? Maybe Ka had something to do with this before the HW was discovered?
I stumbled onto another problem I think we need to figure out; how do we have dinosaurs and Neanderthals on the Thanegioth Archipeligo before the GRoF? I figure it was quite a bit north, close to the arctic circle.
This revamps my hypothesis of a milder North Pole pre-GRoF...
Not only this will justify the Azcan and Oltecs empires so north, but also your Thanegioth dinosaurs problem. Cause: elemental connections? A Carnifex's artifice? Geographical peculiarities?
P.S.: Sorry guys if I'm not actively following your debates, but I'm going to change home next week (lot of boxes to fill and furnitures to move). Moreover, I've halted the translation of my ethnographical work becouse I'm refining Mystara's prehistory (Carnifex's, Eldars', Giants' Ages and so on) before proceeding. News to come soon. ;)
This revamps my hypothesis of a milder North Pole pre-GRoF...
Not only this will justify the Azcan and Oltecs empires so north, but also your Thanegioth dinosaurs problem. Cause: elemental connections? A Carnifex's artifice? Geographical peculiarities?
Your notion of a milder north makes me wonder if it could have been thanks to the Sky-Shield that moderated the temperature across the planet better than it does now (i.e. the GRoF damaged it). Perhaps we should think of the Sky-Shield like Urt's 'skin'.
It's possible that the Sky-Shield helped diffuse heat so that it was warmer than it should have been up to a fair distance inside the arctic circle and not as hot around the equator. This would mean deserts were far less common pre-GRoF and were characterized by lack of rain instead of scorching heat (still hot, but not as hot).
P.S.: Sorry guys if I'm not actively following your debates, but I'm going to change home next week (lot of boxes to fill and furnitures to move). Moreover, I've halted the translation of my ethnographical work becouse I'm refining Mystara's prehistory (Carnifex's, Eldars', Giants' Ages and so on) before proceeding. News to come soon. ;)
Good luck with the move! Sometimes it sucks when RL prevents us from things we enjoy but it happens... often. ;)
Edit the first post, push the "Go Advanced" button and change the title.
Notice in my thread the title changes "in" the first post, but not at the top of the page.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=991571
I tried doing the same thing but it wouldn't work in my threads. Does there have to be a new post after the title change?
Notice in my thread the title changes "in" the first post, but not at the top of the page.
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=991571
I've got no explanations! I'm pretty sure the actual title changed on the list before a added that new post, however.