Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 cap-g Apr 11, 2008 15:12:52	Welcome to the Pork Chop Express people! This thread came about originally on the "Who would you want to send to the Mists!" thread from a discussion involving me and Graidius on a china style domain based on the movie "Big Trouble in Little China!". Hong Kong/Singapore kind of cluster or add on to the Rokushima Taiyoo area in the north eastern section. Lopan is the basis for one Darklord and controls the wealthy dock area with it's multicultural splendor, while Fu Manchu is the basis for another Darklord who rules the other side of the city that is his attempt at making shining culture but falls to the ravages of street crime and vice. Both sides have reasons for such battle and I think we should transplant anything from the original posts that we agree on into this one. I think PM will be a good forum for that to keep the thread clear of needless repeat posts to agree on. Anyway new posts on the subject are welcome and we will I think soon have a list of topics that should aid in getting the ball rolling. "Type things no one else can type! Post things no one else can post!" "Real things?" "As real as... Well no... Just drink the potion!"
#2 humanbing Apr 11, 2008 20:22:12	There may be some useful stuff on here: (this is just in case you find it useful - don't feel you have to use any or all of it if it doesn't gel well with your campaign) http://www.fraternityofshadows.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3331 This was a Gothic Asia netbook attempt that started a few years back but never got finished. We ended up with outlines of a China-style group of warring nations (three nations, with darklords symbolizing a) militaristic and diplomatic deviousness and lack of trust, b) arcane amorality, and c) the hypocrisy of a divine order involving part clerical and part psionic powers) and an old decaying Imperial throne domain. There was a Mongolian style plains and horse riders domain (Taiga) as well as a mixture of Manchurian/Korean mercenary tribesmen domain (Jorpuk). We also included two Japan flavored domains - one of which was the feudal style island, and another which was a smaller technophilic European-wannabe domain. To the south we had a Malaysian/Indonesian style swamp and islands domain, with a bloodthirsty pirate king "Twistleg" who led a flotilla of seafaring bandits. (For good measure, and because Internet decorum requires it, we had those pirates fighting against the ninjas over some sort of weapon that would bestow them Real Ultimate Power. *sigh*) There was a series of small domains that mimicked the western colonies, including a largely facetious take on Hong Kong. There were some maps but I'm not sure if the links are still good or not. Hopefully that may help you a bit or save you having to reinvent the wheel.
#3 humanbing Apr 11, 2008 20:33:23	It's also worth noting that several writers for Gothic Asia netbook were thoroughly dissatisfied with WotC's shallow treatment of Asian cultures in the "Oriental Adventures" book, and also not particularly impressed with the complete exclusion of Asians from the "Book of Nine Swords" martial arts system. We tried to draw more from actual Asian history and less from Western portrayals of Asia. We may (or may not) have succeeded in this aim. The parts about the Chinese style empire are based partially on the Ming dynasty with elements of the Qing dynasty thrown in (primarily regarding foreign colonies and incursions). There was a fair bit of actual research done into Chinese military technology, etc. The bits on Korea and Mongolia may be sketchier as I'm not aware of anybody who was ethnically or academically connected to those. Granted, this netbook material does take a somewhat antagonistic view towards stereotypes of Asian cultures. If your own project was intended to reinforce and develop those stereotypes (which by itself is a perfectly valid way to play the game in your circle) then you may find this earlier project of limited help.
#4 Giradius Apr 12, 2008 0:00:25	Thanks for posting that link, it may be worth a look, (I had a quick glimpse and from what i iniatially saw there seemed to be a lot of "see how many obscure references i can shoe horn into a post to show how much i know about Asian history" going on, although i did agree about the silly names of rokushima taiyoos islands.) In all truthfulness i am happy with the cliche's and stereotypes, Ravenloft is not exactly brimming with authenticity about any of its real world inspired domains! A genuinely accurate oriental set of domains will only be appreciated by the select few who know enough about eastern history to spot the subtleties and obscure references, The stereotypical "Mysterious east" has been around for so long because people like it, in the same way that the modern heroic and noble "Arthurian style" medieval Europe settings are popular (yet bear no similarity to real world medieval Europe), for the same reason that Norse settings and characters are popular (despite Viking helmets never having horns, and there believing death was preferable to surrender or retreat), this is a game, a work of fiction, and creating a scholarly, historically accurate domain (or cluster) which is just one part of a whole world, would only appeal to anime fanatics and history students. The Hags that rule tepest (and Hags in general) are stereotype cliches of witches, I have met many Witches in my time and none of them are crones, some even find the constant negative association of witchracft with evil old hags to be a problem, yet society is in no rush to ban the wizard of Oz. That is not to say that we need go over the top with the stereotypes, but the inclusion of certain Iconic elements (from a western perspective), i.e. Samurai, various incarnations of eastern religions and philosophy (like Taoism, Shinto, Confucianism etc), Wizards that fly on clouds (in the style of sun Wukong), overly bureaucratic imperialism (where your ability in writing poetry meant you were more likely to get a job as sanitation minister, than knowing about sanitation), I think we can safely leave out the foot-binding, and bodily alchemy, I personally like the stereotypes, in the same way i still like silly Vikings with horned helmets. Regarding the horror and fantasy elements, much of eastern folklore, mythology and horror seems rather silly and incomprehensible to the western mind-set (specifically Rokuro kubi, which are floating heads, and Malaysian vampires which are vultures that drink blood through a hole in the back of the head, the monkey king who has 3 magic hairs and keeps his telescopic staff in his ear, kappa who have a indentation in their head that contains water so they breathe, however if you bow to one it will bow back and spill the water out of its head, how stupid can these water spirits get!!!), i do like some Japanese films, i enjoyed Battle Royale (the second one was rubbish IMO), the babycart series, tetsuo the iron man, and a few takeshi kitano films, Ring was entertaining but largly incomprihensible (why is Sadako emitting elecromangnetic waves and thus being recorded onto video?, the story would be fine, in an ancient setting, but is silly in a modern one), the grudge was awful as well. Not everyone is a raving Asiaphile, there is a demographic of people (usually white middle class teens) that are fanatics for anything eastern, They read books about the warring states period of Chinese history, books by Mishima, and bleat on about how all the best and most interesting history is Asian and yet if you asked them to name any European medieval war, A Celtic hero, or if they had read Mallorys Arthurian works or any of the Nordic sagas, they would look at you like you had soiled yourself. All I am saying is that cliche is not so bad, it has endured because its popular, and the reason that japanese settings and fantasy are usually based on Feudal japan instead of iron age japan or the yamato period is because these time periods dont have broad appeal, how many bronze age european setting have you come across? very few I bet, there are certainly more medieval ones, this is because they dont have broad appeal, what you have to ask yourself is why are these stereotypes and cliches so persistant, it is because they have appeal, Samurai are interesting, Martial arts are interesting.
#5 cap-g Apr 12, 2008 3:21:20	Cliche's are fine and well... I like asian history and I will include it in my design if it serves an inspirational purpose, but I don't want to cloud the issue with ton's of facts. But nor should I accept a cliche just because it is so because that can lead to a sameness or stale feel making it less exotic. Both should be judged objectively and added when they increase the over all domains flavor. The link is a great help in finding research and for comparitive reasons on what seems appealing and what is just going to bog down the setting and flow. Just as Falkovnia or Lamordia resemble certain countries they are not their dopplegangers in every fashion and I do not wish to make this domain China or any other asian country equivelent, but I want it to have some resemblance so that it both fits and is appropriately representitive of some of the cultural excentricities. So yes I will draw from even vague sources such as movies or televison but also from history and legend if I believe it is to help make it better. Thanks once again HuManBing and I am glad to have the support and to be given a view at such valuable source material to reference from.
#6 humanbing Apr 12, 2008 7:36:29	Right, I recognized that these two projects are likely going different ways, hence my second post in this thread. Historical accuracy may not be to your taste. (For a good example of that, note that both genders are generally treated equally in a DnD campaign setting. That was almost certainly not the case in medieval society - but clearly an important anachronism for today's players to have fun.) I do not use the word "stereotype" in a negative way in my earlier posts, although usually it does take a negative connotation. The Asianloft thread was indeed intended to bring a broader background of actual Asian history into the game. Not everybody will enjoy that. Some people are happy having Chinese samurais running around, or likewise exclude Asian ethnicities from technological and cultural things that they did indeed take part in. (Crossbows, monk class, etc.) If that's your thing, then that's fine. We just thought it would be nice to have something a little closer to the facts floating around out there. I'm sorry to hear you think it's the work of people "cramming obscure Asian history references into a single thread". We saw it more as a way of removing some of the historical inaccuracies and bringing more historical facts into the game, while still having it a playable fantasy setting. Then again I suppose cultural vagueness has never been a big problem for the consumer public in general. Just take a look at the "historical" movies that Hollywood churns out :P
#7 humanbing Apr 12, 2008 8:18:03	A genuinely accurate oriental set of domains will only be appreciated by the select few who know enough about eastern history to spot the subtleties and obscure references, There are people who are interested in learning more and who are not satisfied with just the standard "chop suey" stereotype present in non-Asian cultures. I'm an Asian myself (in case it wasn't entirely obvious from my posts and my username ;) ) and the biggest concern for me is that there's a very unclear line between something that's "okay because it's a stereotype and people recognize it" and something that's "not okay because it's a negative image that demeans an entire ethnicity". I've personally never felt it was a proper justification to say "the majority does things one way, so we'll follow suit". Most modern nations hold it legally to be insufficient justification in the political treatment of minorities, and I likewise feel that it's not a particularly good justification for personal attitudes towards minorities either. (For an extreme example, you could look to the Chinese Exclusion Laws in western United States during the 1800s - a clearly racist policy that nonetheless was implemented through the justification of "Oh well, the majority's not Chinese so we won't have any problems with the voters".) Sure it may be "fun" to have Fu Manchu and Lo Pan (who do not exist in actual Chinese myths and common legends, contrary to the script of Big Trouble in Little China) in a game, but if the materials only stopped there, then the gaming public only gets one side of the picture. And who's to say they don't want the whole deal? It wasn't that long ago that the West had a very poor understanding of Japan, but after closer ties following 1945, Japanese cultural exchanges with the West have been very considerable and stereotypes have changed or even disappeared altogether. You could argue that something similar is happening with China and its trade ties to the West today. Of course, this is a game. More importantly, it's your game. Play it how you want. Stereotypes definitely save time and they simplify what could be an overly complex cultural situation. If it's easiest for your players and you to visualize a badguy just like Lo Pan, go ahead and do it. However, I do support the efforts of people who try to go beyond the stereotypes and to offer more of a historical basis to anybody who desires it. Nobody's forcing you to use this stuff if it won't fit well into your campaign. But if you attack or criticize something just because it strives for greater accuracy, then that will have a severe narrowing effect on gamers. And my particular axe to grind is this: Asians (and in fact most ethnic minorities) already feature so rarely in WotC products that there's a real inclusionary issue at stake here. The material in Oriental Adventures didn't really inspire me, and there's a whole other issue about the Tome of Battle that I mentioned above. I'm not the only Asian gamer who feels shortchanged by this, and we're trying to do some research and put what we find onto the net. I'm sorry if it seemed like we were trying to show off esoteric knowledge or that we were "bleating Asianophiles". I personally thought we were acting more in the lines of "Hey guys, look at some neat stuff we found!" If that exasperates or threatens you, we apologize for the attempt at cultural diversity. PS: Just noticed Giradius' signature. "What do I care for your suffering? Pain, even agony, is no more than information before the senses, data fed to the computer of the mind. The lesson is simple: you have received the information, now act on it. Take control of the input and you shall become master of the output." ;)
#8 Giradius Apr 12, 2008 16:04:14	I knew this would happen, I am being taken out of context, and you probably thing me a xenophobic, Anti-asian, isolationist! A fairly common reaction when ever multiculturalism is viewed in anything other than shining golden light, but then again it is what the majority think these days, and who am I to argue. There are probably differences of definition here, I do not project any negative connotation onto a stereotype, and although you say the same thing, reading between the lines gives the impression that is not how you actually feel. For a start i do not see how a "cultural" stereotype can demean an entire ethnicity, unless it is overtly negative. This not something the west is alone in doing, if memory serves the Chinese said that anyone living on the other side of the great wall was a barbarian (the romans did this to, as anyone who did not speak latin was a Barbarian), there are just as many stereotypes in Asian culture as there are in western culture, (the Japanese show, takeshi's castle, a gladiators style game show has only one caucasian a large bearded long haired man called Animal, Journey to the west has negative sterotypes of Taoists). In fact both the Chinese and Japanese have been incredibly xenophobic or isolationist in the past (For instance the boxer rebelion and you mention the limited cultural exchange between japan and the west, this is mostly due to Japanese isolationist policy and for a time the only Westerners they would trade with were the dutch). The idea that something is right because everyone else says it is, is abhorrent to me, I have my own opinions and am not content to let others think for me, and when i said that certain stereotypes have lasted because they are popular, i was not referring to the negative "yellow peril" stereotype of the late 1900s, but was referring to the honourable Samurai warrior who believes in death before dishonor, the wise mountain sage who has gained enlightenment through disdaining lesser things, the ninja master an assassin without equal in the world, the ascetic shaolin master whose skills in wu-shu are world renowned, NONE of these stereotypes are negative, and only an idiot would say that the Budo culture is japans only contribution to humanity, or that kung fu is chinas. I posted with the opinion that we are intelligent adults, who know a little something about the real world and other cultures, I myself am familiar with some Asian culture (although I am not a scholar), and so i was not trying to suggest we create a setting where every single Asian person is a martial artist and sushi chef, where the standard greeting is "herro honourable gentleman" followed by several bows, on the other hand, I am not wanting to create a romance of the three kingdoms setting, combined with Japanese epics. Sure it may be "fun" to have Fu Manchu and Lo Pan (who do not exist in actual Chinese myths and common legends, contrary to the script of Big Trouble in Little China) in a game, but if the materials only stopped there, then the gaming public only gets one side of the picture. As i said before, we are working with fiction, not history, and Fu Manchu and lo'pan are fictional characters (and I never said otherwise), I understand the fu Manchu concerns and there were concerns about how PC those books where even when the were first written (not long after the turn the century), but as i have said, he is fiction, for Chinese people to be offended by fu Manchu is like having German people being offended by Kroenen from Hellboy, or Egyptians being offended by Imhotep form the more recent mummy films. Remember that what you consider a "negative" stereotype, others may not. and regarding only providing a westernized cliché version of Asian culture (the Fu Manchu and BTILC), if this only gives the gaming community one side of the story, there is nothing to stop them to going into a library and reading journey to the west, Romance of the three kingdoms, the book of lord Shang, the Art of war or any other books, the sort of people who would want the whole deal, and a play a fully historically authentic eastern setting would be the people who are playing a game where that is the focus of the setting , they would be playing Three kingdoms d20, and chances are they are already knowledgeable on the setting, what this thread is about, is creating a cluster of Ravenloft domains, if you create realistic Eastern domains, you need to rewrite the others as well to be fair to the nations they are based on, as they are ALL stereotypes, Barovia is a Stereotype of Romania (and is probably more negative than the eastern realm suggested here). If that exasperates or threatens you, we apologize for the attempt at cultural diversity. I am not against the idea of a historically accurate Oriental setting, but such a thing is a worthy project in its own right, An eastern stereotype Orient is fine for a world where every nation is a stereotype. I am sorry if i did offend you, it was honestly not my intention, I do sometimes across as a little brash, maybe even rude, but i am not in the habit of trying to insult people. the bleating asianophine remark was a bit rude of me (I apologize) but its the result of the constant claims that eastern history and culture is way more interesting than western history "Oh you must read Romance of the three kingdoms" and yet if you were to sugest to them reading one of Europes great historic works (like the Iliad, or the prose Edda) you would be ignored, people who can name all the dynasties of china, and give you life story of an obscure 17th century Diamyo, but not tell you where Erik the red came from, or who Vercingetorix was. An interest in your own history, does not make you a racist, nor does it mean you are against learning about other histrories and cultures, this mentality is the reason for the wests cultural bankruptcy (and a source of frustration). In Europe (and the UK especially) history and culture is not celebrated as it is in other countries, in fact many European countries try to impress upon its citizens that their history is something to be ashamed of, and so this cultural vacuum is filled by many with Asian culture (owing to the easy accessibility and popularity of the stereotypes i mentioned before, people watch kung fu movies and develop an interest in kung fu, from there they get interesting in Chinese philosophy and from there Chinese history, the same goes for japan, Anime is very popular and it leads to further interest in Japanese culture, in itself this is not a bad thing but in many cases it occurs because peoples own history is not available to them, the sort of people who find eastern history interesting are likely to find history in general interesting, and as such be just as well read on western history) In summary, i am not opposed to your setting, i would play it, but i don't think that avoiding the stereotype is necessary in any setting that contains such stereotypical gems as Mordentshire, the amber wastes and Barovia. once again I am sorry if you found my post to be racist, or xenophobic, it was not my intention, i am not judging Asian culture as lesser than western culture or claiming that western society has not gained from interaction with eastern culture or anything like that , merely that for this task, absolute historical or cultural authenticity is not needed (and if it was authentic it would be the only one and stick out like a sore thumb in Clicheloft). So please forgive me if i seemed rude or needlessly antagonistic,We are all on these forums because we have something in common, we are a community, and your contribution was appreciated and if I didnt thank you for posting the link, then thank you. ((Regarding the words of chairman yang, I chose it as a sig because I am an antagonistic atheist and so I agree with it, I agree with a lot of his quotes and many of the quotes from Alpha Centauri in general, including the one that you posted :D, HORAY FOR THE HUMAN HIVE!!!!!!!!!))
#9 cap-g Apr 13, 2008 5:25:52	Finally finished all ten pages of the link... whew! Thank you again... Now to address the post which I am not sure applies to me but hey I got two cents and I want to buy a vowel... Historical accuracy may not be to your taste. (For a good example of that, note that both genders are generally treated equally in a DnD campaign setting. That was almost certainly not the case in medieval society - but clearly an important anachronism for today's players to have fun.) I do not use the word "stereotype" in a negative way in my earlier posts, although usually it does take a negative connotation. Historic and cultural reference are important to me in a very large sense! I want the Domain I am working on to reflect these aspects of Chinese culture and also the view of how it is seen. It should feel foreign to the non native characters and exotic. Accuracy in a fantasy setting where every aspect of the culture is spelled out is a time consuming process with many pitfalls. I understand that stereotypes are dangerous in some fashion for many reasons but I will not shy away from an idea they present for fear of such because if I can find some good way to use it without insulting someone then everybody wins. I want constructive criticism and genuine understanding of the subject before I attempt to use it though because to do less would be an insult and not the flattery that imitation is supposed to be. The Asianloft thread was indeed intended to bring a broader background of actual Asian history into the game. Not everybody will enjoy that. Some people are happy having Chinese samurais running around, or likewise exclude Asian ethnicities from technological and cultural things that they did indeed take part in. (Crossbows, monk class, etc.) If that's your thing, then that's fine. We just thought it would be nice to have something a little closer to the facts floating around out there. A broadly detailed background is vastly appealing to me but I see by the above thread that to many cooks can lead to a very big stew. I do not want Chinese Samurai running around as you say because there are no Chinese Samurai or at least no samurai tradition that originated in china. China arose from chinese circumstance and Japan from japanise circumstance and are each unique in their own fashion. But still with tweaking the concept of any class depends on the context in which it is used. In the Rokugan or Oriental Adventures books the Samurai class is basically a Fighter mixed with a magical sword sort of ability that grows over time, finally curtailed as samurai that were loyal would be by an honor code. Now why not remove the honor code and change the diasho ability to reflect a Monk who is working with his sword to create new techniques through the use of his qi. Use the experience varient and that gives you a more proper set up for this. If you wish to use the Samurai from the ComWar just make him a royal guard type or military version or a blustering monk that uses two weapons. Worried about armor? Just take out the armor if so and give the AC bonuses the Monk would get with wisdom and lvl AC progression. No need to reinvent the wheel each time. Also in the post you all had the issue with altering magic to suit the asian prayers and ritual. The point was made that it was too long for flash effects and the need to compensate was surely necessary. Why have such added to the game when it creates such issues? What would be the use of such a character when it takes him near a week to cast a simple spell that will let you fly over a canyon. If the situation is urgent then the magic user is useless and while that is not a bad thing some times it takes away from his power if he cannot expedite some of the parties problems without a week or so in advance. Also what happens when foreign casters have such an advantage? When they come there does all that change? No it probably doesn't but it is not like a caster in Ravenloft in almost anywhere just hurls fire down the road. Maybe the ritual could just be to earn the knowledge of the spell and must keep the favor of the spirit to do such. A shrine pilgramige or such to earn the spirts favor. I normaly always associate Asian influence with my games and find that it is odd that WotC is not more receptive to such. If their is an Asian feel to the monk or ninja such as mannerisms or homeland then why not make it so. I guess they maybe trying to avoid the so called stereotypes of these classes by trying to be overly PC and not alienate anyone. Or they are just possibly uncaring and wanted to get it out fast for profit with less detail considering the lack sale not meriting a follow up to the Oriental Adventures Books. I guess on crossbow it is because it draws from history only so far in that crossbows after they were discovered by the rest of the world in their journeys became somewhat prolific when they replaced the shortbow and the longbow to most extent due to ease of use and straight line close range shots over arching bow shot which still had its uses in war time. Of course in Ravenloft this seems unimportant to much of an extent because the mists could bring in a domain where the history explains such things. The moment the Asian domain is added it could be that one of the previous domains remembers trading for the crossbow and then how it grew to be used in the domains history. Also of note when Vlad Drakov enters the relms and the Hawk Bow is a very staple weapon for the domain so perhaps he brought the original with him and the history behind it is that another culture possibly Asian developed it! I'm sorry to hear you think it's the work of people "cramming obscure Asian history references into a single thread". We saw it more as a way of removing some of the historical inaccuracies and bringing more historical facts into the game, while still having it a playable fantasy setting. While Giradius said that I read through the post fairly throughly and found that the facts were not smug. Well thought out and compaired with the names of their source material they are a pleasure to read in most cases. History by it's own merit is very vague in some ways that we truly do not know what really happend and only know what we can piece together. None the less it still makes very good inspiration and somewhat altered reference material. Heck I am suprised that the project collapsed with all the feedback it seemed to generate. I do not envy all the game mechanic changes that have to be made to make some of the systems work (Especially when dealing with the multi cultural aspects of Ravenloft and outlander characters.) but If done well I would accept them just as I accept critical damage charts and such. I come to the boards to discuss and develop new ideas and sometimes to chat and I like the idea of the Lo'Pan type character but I would never think to make him one dimensional or stereotypical and while the BTLC movie is not based on actual history it was inspired by it in a fashion. I would never think to say that any Domain in Ravenloft truly epitomises the country it is based on but I would definitly say they were inspired by them. That said I will definitively state that I am for historical detail and cultural flavor. I am for changes and such but if you change the system so much then why not make a new setting. I really would like to finish the design end of it and in that I love the link and wouldn't mind having this grow to such preportions after the simple act of fleshing out this part is done. I figure if we can get this part done then maybe it can grow past this. If not then there was no point in planning so much over head work. ***Project list so far, in no particular order... ---Lo'Pan type Darklord research for character development! ---Fu Manchu type Darklord research for character development! ---Lo'Pan type Darklord Hong Kong side Domain development! ---Fu Manchu type Darklord Walled City side Domain development! ---Determination of location in Ravenloft! ***And Finally if successful and the desire to go beyond is still there... ---Growth into a larger project beyond just a cluster into a larger domain based upon success with the previous entries... I will take this project as far as I can and am already researching Hong Kong and Chinese dynasty and imperial history to try and make fictional paralels and such. Once more thank you HuManBing and also Giradius for helping with the thread and let's try to make a good and decent end result and not defeat our efforts by dismissing ideas. Then again maybe the above is a misunderstanding and we are in agreement. It is fiction based on reality so it does not have to be exact, but stretch it too far and the flavor falls out. Ravenloft is a low magic setting so we can get away with some but we need to keep the realism intact. We also cannot stay with just the Chinese history/mythos to exact detail unless we wish to redesign a lot of details on the play system. You are both intelligent and have knowledge on the subjects at hand so I say we can make it a good Domain just by the measure of our text so far... Now don't make me come over there with my Six Demon Bag!;)
#10 humanbing Apr 13, 2008 8:32:07	To both you posters: I'm glad we got these viewpoints straightened out. Like I said before, this game is all about customizability, and you should definitely play it in a way that is fun for you. That will change for player to player and what works for one may not work for another. I merely post the link to the Asianloft project as a potential time saver if any of the ideas help you there. There is no pressure to use any of that material if it doesn't fit in with what you need to make a good, fun game for yourselves. To Giradius: Have you read the fan fiction Joe, by my housemate Alinestra? She finished it about six years ago and people have said it's very good. I enjoyed it and her viewpoints on the Human Hive. (She's half-Chinese so she sort of wanted to write a story that showed how the Chinese idea of social freedoms is different from the Western idea.) The story is here. Be warned - it took her two years to write it and it's rather long. (She named a character after me. He gets his head cut off. It's awesome.)
#11 Giradius Apr 13, 2008 11:55:39	Thank you to both of you, Thanks to Cap-G for his interesting post and general good attitude. and thanks to HuManBing for being so understanding and not holding a grudge on someone who is as articulate as a George W Bush with marbles in his mouth :D As I said, i meant no disrespect, nor did i want to come across as xenophobic or anti-Asian, (being in the UK we have almost no racism toward Chinese or other east Asian immigrants although we have few Japanese people here, with that said my girlfriend has some small amount of Japanese ancestry), I was not poopooing the use of a historically and culturally accurate oriental setting, merely saying that such a project deserves its own setting entirely, and that the stereotype cliche version fits in with the stereotype cliche Victorian London, medieval Romania, renaissance Italy and so on, i am not picking on the far east when i say the stereotypes will do fine, Ravenloft stereotypes the whole world. I have some ideas on names, (HuManBing, you mentioned being Asian, if you are of Chinese extraction, what is you opinion on these names, they are not exact Chinese and neither is it supposed to be , they have been altered slightly, but you might pick up similarity or be able to spot if the Lo'pan darklord has been named Orange Taxidermy or some such gibberish) Dao Sheng (meaning war sage) for the Fu Manchu darklord Wu Fang chi (meaning great wizard) for Lo'pan (to my knowledge in Chinese myth, wizards were called Fang Shih, and not Wu Jen at all, in the same way that Japanese wizards were Maho not Shugenja) For the domain names. Yantai shi - The walled city . (Yantai is a Chinese company that makes lime slicers and shi is the name of the symbol for house in feng shui, this is a reference to Limehouse, the district of London that was Fu Manchus territory in the books). Hong gum shan - (Hong is a reference to Hong Kong, and according to Big trouble in little china , gum shan is what the Chinese called America during the gold rush ,it means mountain of gold) I am not sure about this name, it seems a little clumsy. For the background of the darklords... Lo'pan does not need to be changed much at all, He was ruler of a small kingdom that used his magic and trickery to keep his neighbors fighting each other and thus keep them weak, he was planning to invade his neighbors and expand his kingdom and then repeat until he ruled the entire continent, however the first emperor united many of the small warring kingdoms and challenged him, a bitter war was fought and Lo'pan summoned many monstrous and unnatural allies, eventually though the might of the emperor proved to strong and Lo'pan was defeated and brought before the emperor, the emperor was merciful and gave him the choice to rule his original kingdom as governor as long as he acknowledged him as emperor and promised to spare his life if he never again took up arms against him, Lo'pan made the emperor swear this and reluctantly agreed and returned to his kingdom, he did not rebuild his original fortress but instead moved to a hidden sanctuary on a small island near a large port town and there he worked on powerful and evil magic and called upon dark gods and demons in order to destroy this new empire and its unworthy emperor, his agents used the port and traveled far and wide bringing artefacts of power, rare herbs, and dark relics, then on the first anniversary of the emperors unification, Lo'pan unleashed the forces he had been creating and a huge cataclysm struck the empire ("a creature of vast, dark destructive power"),mists began to gather around Lo'pans Island stronghold, the ground shook and storms levelled whole cities, fissures opened and demons and other horrors crept forth ("giant earthquakes turned the world upside down, many normal people were killed, many unnatural people were freed to commit great offenses against the gods"), The emperor used his magic and called upon the gods to strike down Lo'pan, but the gods refused as the promise of the emperor protected him (as Lo'pan had not taken up arms against him), so the emperor instead asked the gods to unbalance the furies and lay a curse of fleshlessness upon him, if he cannot be struck down, then he would spend eternity as a dream. the Gods agreed and just as the curse was about to be laid , mists overwhelmed the Island and the port, when the mists cleared the port, the island and Lo'Pan were gone, and the imperial historians recorded them destroyed in the cataclysm. Whats the verdict? To Giradius: Have you read the fan fiction Joe, by my housemate Alinestra? She finished it about six years ago and people have said it's very good. I enjoyed it and her viewpoints on the Human Hive. (She's half-Chinese so she sort of wanted to write a story that showed how the Chinese idea of social freedoms is different from the Western idea.) The story is here. Be warned - it took her two years to write it and it's rather long. (She named a character after me. He gets his head cut off. It's awesome.) I have not read that, i will have a look as i find the Alpha Centauri setting very interesting (there may even be a roleplaying game in there somewhere), one of my favourite factions is the Hive, my second favourite is the university, probably owing to my views in real life on such things.
#12 humanbing Apr 13, 2008 21:13:07	Gum Shan (Jin Shan in Mandarin) I think actually refers to San Francisco or to California. I know the Chinese word for San Francisco even today is "Jiu Jin Shan" or "Old Gold Mountain". The "Hong" bit in Hong Kong is the Cantonese word for "fragrant" so it might not make too much sense added to the "Gold Mountain" (which conceptually doesn't really smell of much except gold... which doesn't smell much ;) ). You might call it "Laeng Gum Shan" which would mean "Beautiful Gold Mountain" or "Bright Gold Mountain". The "ng" sound at the end of the first word would meld nicely into the "gum" in the second word. Indeed it comes from the 1800s Gold Rush to the West Coast. Edit: If you're "as articulate as George Bush with marbles in his mouth" does that make you more articulate than George Bush normally is? ;)
#13 cap-g Apr 22, 2008 10:52:08	All this information is from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hong_Kong This artical is only slightly abridged by me and is not fully tapped as there are many links from the above wiki listing that I have yet to get fully into but I feel that posting this here is perhaps the way to go about doing this for the moment. I have highlighted some of the points I found to be good points for further research! Begining of artical: The history of Hong Kong began as a coastal island geographically located in southern China. While pockets of settlements had taken place in the region with archaeological findings dating back thousands of years, regularly written records were not made until the engagement of Imperial China and the British Colony in the territory. Starting out as a fishing village, salt production site and trading ground, it would evolve into a military port of strategic importance and eventually an international financial centre that enjoys the world's 14th highest GDP (PPP) per capita, supporting 33% of the foreign capital flows into China. Prehistoric Era History of stone age with archaeological evidence dating back 30,000 years includes stone tools of the pre-historic people in the Old Stone Age, from sites referenced as in Sai Kung area (are perhaps for making ground Religious carvings on outlying islands and coastal areas possibly related to Che people in Neolithic) and in Wong Tei Tung later findings date from the Paleolithic suggest it is one of the most ancient settlements in Hong Kong. Possible references of use are: 1: The ancient ruins and archaeological sites and the Religious carvings on the outlying islands and coastal areas. 2: Also minor understanding of the Che people needed for proper reference! Imperial China Era (221 BC - 1800s) Incorporated into China during the Qin Dynasty (221 BC - 206 BC), the area was firmly consolidated under Nam Yuet (203 BC - 111 BC.) Archaeological evidence indicates the population has increased since the Han Dynasty (206 BC - 220). In the 1950s, the tomb at Lei Cheng Uk from the Eastern Han Dynasty (25 – 220) was excavated and archaeologists began to investigate that salt production may flourished in Hong Kong 2000 years ago, conclusive evidence has not been found. Tai Po Hoi, the sea of Tai Po, was a major pearl hunting harbour in China since Han Dynasty. Activities peaked during the Southern Han (917 to 971) and continued till Ming Dynasty (1368 to 1644) During the Tang Dynasty, the Guangdong region flourished as an international trading center. The Tuen Mun region in what is now Hong Kong's New Territories served as a port, naval base, salt production centre and later, base for the exploitation of pearls. Lantau Island was also the salt production centre where the salt smugglers riots broke out against the government. In 1276 during the Mongol invasion, the Southern Song Dynasty court moved to Fujian, then to Lantau Island and later to today's Kowloon City, but the child emperor, Zhao Bing, after being defeated in the Battle of Yamen, committed suicide by drowning with his officials. Tung Chung valley, named after a hero who gave up his life for the emperor, is believed to have been a base for the court. Hau Wong, an official of the emperor is still worshipped in Hong Kong today. However, during the Mongol period, Hong Kong saw its first population boom as Chinese refugees entered the area. The main reason for them to enter Hong Kong was because of wars, famines and some groups even came here to find jobs. Five clans of Hau (Hou, 候), Tang (Deng, 鄧), Pang (Peng, 彭) and Liu (Liao, 廖) and Man (Wen, 文) were claimed to be the Punti (本地人) from Guangdong, Fujian and Jiangxi in China. Despite the immigration and light development of agriculture, the area was hilly and relatively barren. People had to rely on salt, pearl and fishery trades to produce income. Some clans built walled villages to protect themselves from the threat of bandits, rival clans and wild animals. The famous Chinese pirate Cheung Po Tsai also had many legendary stories in Hong Kong. The last dynasty in China, Qing Dynasty, would also be the last to come in contact with Hong Kong. As a military outpost and trading port, the Hong Kong territory would gain the attention of the world. Possible references of use are: 1: Definite trade port with references including fishing, salt, pearls, with salt smugglers causing a riot. 2: Was also military naval base. Turbulent war time imigration from Royal to Peasent levels with Mongol period creating a population boom. 3: Many wartime Hero's and the kings and royalty that were a part of the history of the land and the tales that can intertwine with the history of the Domain as it forms. 4: Five clans came, need more research on them. 5: Low agriculture due to hills and barren land. Trade intensive. 6: Walled villages of some clans fit well with the second part of main city. 7: Famous Chinese pirate definitely a research topic. 8: Last dynasty of mainland China is the last to reach it. Topic of Mainland will be issue to address later but still very important due to continued influence as possible problem. Is this domain cut off leaving these Imperial soldiers very worried with little in the way of standing orders and possible outsider influence as it is a trading port. 9: World wide attention from here. Colonial Hong Kong Era (1800s - 1930s) By the early 19th century, the British Empire trade was heavily dependent upon the importation of tea from China. While the British exported to China luxurious items like clocks and watches, there was an overwhelming imbalance between the trades. China developed a strong demand for silver, which was a difficult commodity to come by in large quantities for the British. The counterbalance of trades would come with illegal opium entering China. Lin Zexu would become the Chinese commissioner who voiced to Queen Victoria the Qing state's opposition to the unlawful opium trade. It resulted in the Opium Wars, which led to British victories over China and the cession of Hong Kong to the United Kingdom via the enactment of the new treaties. After the territorial settlements, the achievements of the era would set the foundation for the culture and commerce in modern Hong Kong for years to come. The territory's commercial and industry transitioned in numerous ways: Hong Kong and China Gas Company to the first electric company; Rickshaws would transition to bus; ferries, trams and airline[2], there was no shortage of improvements. Every industry went through major transformation and growth. Other vital establishments include the change in philosophy starting with a western-style education with Frederick Stewart[3], which a critical step in separating Hong Kong from mainland China during the political turmoil associated with the falling Qing dynasty. The monumental start of the financial powerhouse industry of the far east would begin with the first large scale bank.[4] The period is also challenged by the onslaught of the Third Pandemic of Bubonic Plague changing the view of importance of the first hospital. On the outbreak of World War I in 1914, fear of a possible attack on the colony led to an exodus of 60,000 Chinese. Statistically Hong Kong's population would continue to boom in the following decades from 530,000 in 1916 to 725,000 in 1925. Nonetheless the crisis in mainland China in the 1920s and 1930s would leave Hong Kong vulnerable to a strategic invasion from Japan. Possible references of use are: 1: By now British Empire trade is dependant on tea from China through this port. Return trade in luxury items such as clocks and watches and difficult to obtain silver creating a major trade imbalance. Counterbalanced by illegal opium entering China. Once more leading to mainland issues that may need further debate but the seeming trade partners could perhaps be Lamordian but the opium seems to be hard to place from there. Some other drug of some sort perhaps from some unscrupulous member of the Borcan trade empire as they deal with poisons. 2: Chinese commissioner voiced to Queen Victoria about Qing state's opposition to the unlawful opium trade definite further research. Led to Opium Wars needs research, which led to British victories that further led to cession of Hong Kong to UK via new treaties. Well I think this needs to be part of the current strife and that this new domain's official rulership is perhaps in debate at least on the Lo'Pan'ish Darklords side of the city as he is sort of an underground mastermind sort. 3: Set foundation for culture and commerce in modern Hong Kong for years. Cultural and changes include modernized electric, rickshaws to bus, ferries, trams, and airline but not seemingly fitting in all ways. Philosophic shift to western-style education, critical step to seperate Hong Kong from China during fall of Qing dynasty. Definitely not this far in advancement so as not to defeat all the cultural relevence sown in but culture shock and cultural drift should be issues with perhaps some sort of embassies or such in the land trying to curry influence. 4: Finacial powerhouse industry begins with first large scale bank. Challanged by Third Pandemic of Bubonic Plague causing change toward view of first hospital. Bank seems to be a current possible development that perhaps is some sort of ploy for one side or the other. As for the plague and the hospital well that seems maybe a future thing but don't want to use it all if adventures are planned make it an event of sorts. 5: World War I leads to fear of attack and exodus of 60,000 Chinese. Population Boom in following decades goes from 530,000 in 1916 to 725,000 in 1925. Perhaps the exodites have brought news from the mother land as they arrived out of the mist but are also viewed suspiciously as they and the natives of the domain are struggling to live in the land together. Perhaps best left in the recent past. 6:Chinese mainland crisis leaves Hong Kong vulnerable to strategic invasion from Japan. Either also left in the recent past or in my opinion better left as hints of what is to come as shipping lanes are attacked by these strange people.(RT tie-in is best but why?) Japanese Occupation Era (1940s) Hong Kong was occupied by Japan from 25 December 1941 to 15 August 1945. The period, called '3 years and 8 months' halted the economy. The British, Canadians, Indians and the Hong Kong Volunteer Defense Forces resisted the Japanese invasion commanded by Sakai Takashi which started on December 8, 1941, eight hours after the attack on Pearl Harbor. Japanese achieved air superiority on the first day of battle and the defensive forces were outnumbered. The British and the Indians retreated from the Gin Drinker's Line and consequently from Kowloon under heavy aerial bombardment and artillery barrage. Fierce fighting continued on Hong Kong Island; the only reservoir was lost. Canadian Winnipeg Grenadiers fought at the crucial Wong Nai Chong Gap that secured the passage between downtown and the secluded southern parts of the island. On December 25, 1941 - which has gone down in history as Black Christmas to local people - British colonial officials headed by the Governor of Hong Kong, Mark Aitchison Young, surrendered in person at the Japanese headquarters on the third floor of the Peninsula Hotel. Isogai Rensuke became the first Japanese governor of Hong Kong. During the Japanese occupation, hyper-inflation and food rationing became the norm of daily lives. It became unlawful to own Hong Kong Dollars, which were replaced by the Japanese Military Yen, a currency without reserves issued by the Imperial Japanese Army administration. Some estimate that as many as 10,000 women were raped in the first few days after Hong Kong's capture and large number of suspected dissidents were executed. Philip Snow, a prominent historian of the period, said that the Japanese cut rations for civilians to conserve food for soldiers, usually to starvation levels and deported many to famine- and disease-ridden areas of the mainland. Most of the repatriated actually had come to Hong Kong just a few years earlier to flee the terror of the Second Sino-Japanese War in mainland China. By the end of the war in 1945, the population of Hong Kong shrunk to 600,000, less than half of the pre-war population of 1.6 million. The communist takeover of mainland China in 1949 led to another population boom in Hong Kong. Thousands of refugees emigrated from mainland China to Hong Kong, and made it an important entrepôt until the United Nations ordered a trade embargo on mainland China due to the Korean War. More refugees came during the Great Leap Forward. Possible references of use are: 1: Many war based facts above but it is hard to think of ways to incorperate them unless it is done from RT in Ravenloft. Definite potential but seems to be somewhat out of place and possibly extrenious. Consider stopping development from this point at the furthest as suggested above make it a hint of what is to come in some way. Modern Hong Kong under British rule (1950s - 1997) The 1950s Skills and capital brought by refugees of Mainland China, especially from Shanghai, along with a vast pool of cheap labor helped revive the economy. Enjoying unprecedented growth Hong Kong would transform from a territory of entrepôt trade to industrial and manufacturing. Large squatter camps developed throughout the territory providing homes for the massive number of growing immigrants. The camps, however, posed a fire and health hazard, leading to disasters like the Shek Kip Mei fire. Governor Alexander Grantham responded with a "multi story buildings" plan as a standard. It was the beginning of the high rise buildings. Conditions in public housing were very basic with several families sharing communal cooking facilities. Possible references of use are: 1: Seemingly largely unneccessary and not of any reference other than perhaps refugees from China and from trade to industrial and manufacturing. Perhaps once more hinting to such but more I think in the vain of workhouses and exploiting and not as developed as would be for the era referenced above. More a precursor version. 2: And the camps of immigrants and the fire with plans for multi story structures. Poor housing could also be relevent. Could be great reference here on these issues that leads to many original aspects of the city. Needs a lot of thought however on how. That's all for now but when I have something more concrete I will post again on the subject. Just wanted you to know I am still working on it!