http://www.pandius.com/Karameikos.JPG
Thank you, Corey!! It's fantastic!
And we also have a wonderful list of humanoid tribes and hordes of Karameikos by Giampaolo Agosta (bravisimo!) here:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p9t1vCUfVKr6PUd_EY9QrBA
[Giampaolo, my players are going to travel the Selenica caravan route, and they will find some of these hordes; they are very inspirative!]
So... is anybody eager to create a wargame system for wargaming in Karameikos?
We need quite easy rules. Each horde could be a counter (minimum unit). The old DragonLance wargame (DL11, Dragons of Glory, here you are photos of the counters: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/47344 ) could be a good exemple: each unit can be healthy or (flip to the other counterside) tired. There's a replacement pool. Leaders (such as Bargle, Aleena, Patriarch Sheldane...) give bonus to units.
You know: typical movement, stack, combat counter system.
And somebody should design the counters and put them in Pandius; each gamer could print the counter sheet at home, and cut the counters.
How many players: 2 to 4.
4 players: Black Eagle + Humanoids against Humans + DemiHumans (gnomes and elves)
3 players: Black Eagle vs. Humanoids vs. Humans+DemiHumans
2 players: Black Eagle against Stefan Karameikos; elves, gnomes and most humanoids are neutral; each side can try to attract them to their cause.
Extra counters:
- Pirates (and naval combat)
- Caravans (humanoids raid them for resources)
- Some wandering monsters: 3 or 4 dragons, a turtle-dragon at sea, hill giant group, frost giants in the Altan Tepes
I would love to play "The Karameikian War" or whatever...
But I can't design the counters. And I'm currently quite busy to design the rules. But... is anybody thinking this would be a good idea?
For some ideas, games like Robert E Lee: Civil War General would be a really good start since it has a table top board game version (that's how it begin). Rules from a game like that could give some ideas on structure.
--Ray.
And we also have a wonderful list of humanoid tribes and hordes of Karameikos by Giampaolo Agosta (bravisimo!) here:
http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=p9t1vCUfVKr6PUd_EY9QrBA
[Giampaolo, my players are going to travel the Selenica caravan route, and they will find some of these hordes; they are very inspirative!]
Thanks
In case you missed it, there is also a companion article about those hordes.
GP
I don't have (nor have never seen) the counters from X10.
Dear Agathokles, I read the article about the karameikian hordes, a wonderful work, I had great fun. I thought: "what a pity, my players are glantrians, they are going to Rhoona, of course by Darokin-Athenos-sea journey."
But my brother -who is the only veteran player- told me that "of course we are not going to take a ship: ships ALWAYS sunk, the sea is full of pirates and high-level monsters, that coast is full of dangers... We'll take the Selenica caravan route, and then, maybe Ylaruam, may be Thyatis-sea".
(I wonder what treatment deserve Glantrian characters in religious Ylaruam...)
Dear Agathokles, I read the article about the karameikian hordes, a wonderful work, I had great fun. I thought: "what a pity, my players are glantrians, they are going to Rhoona, of course by Darokin-Athenos-sea journey."
But my brother -who is the only veteran player- told me that "of course we are not going to take a ship: ships ALWAYS sunk, the sea is full of pirates and high-level monsters, that coast is full of dangers... We'll take the Selenica caravan route, and then, maybe Ylaruam, may be Thyatis-sea".
(I wonder what treatment deserve Glantrian characters in religious Ylaruam...)
LOL! Indeed, they've got three fervently anti-Glantrian nations between them and Rhoona (Ylaruam, Rockhome and Ethengar). I think the safest route would be Wendar-Heldannic Territories-Vestland, or by sea via Thyatis.
GP
I know this is slightly off topic, but, could any of you tell me what program was used to make that map?
I wouldn't mind knowing either. It really is a beautiful map!
I wouldn't mind knowing either. It really is a beautiful map!
I can answer on behalf of Corey there, Campaign Cartographer 3.
What about stacking limits? (or I didn't pay atention?)
Also, I would prefer to have more units (may be double them) and some "recovering" rules. For example, a replacement pool for eliminated units, when you have 2 identical eliminated units, one goes to "permanent death" and the other returns to play (survivors of past battles return). Maybe they need 1 turn for returning. I believe most wargamers really love "reinforcements", we all love recovering units! This way, even if you are losing, you "win" something and game is funnier...
The "depleted" side of the units is missing.
And please note that at the end of page 4, starting page 5, where it says "the BlackEagle" should say "the Karameikian".
I'm really excited! A Karameikan wargame!
What about stacking limits? (or I didn't pay atention?)
At this point, it is just one unit per hex.
Also, I would prefer to have more units (may be double them)...
I struggled with this one. As I haven't run though any playtests yet (didn't want to print out the map...lol), I wasn't sure how everything was going to work out. I went with the unit strength listed in the Companion rule set and decided to go with a unit scale of approximately 100 fighting individuals per unit. That led to the current number of units. It might not be a bad idea to use the unit strengths from GAZ1 - that would approximately double the number of units - but then I'd have to work out some stacking rules.
Of course, there is always the possibility of adding the Royal Navy against the Pirates of Halag...
...and some "recovering" rules. For example, a replacement pool for eliminated units, when you have 2 identical eliminated units, one goes to "permanent death" and the other returns to play (survivors of past battles return). Maybe they need 1 turn for returning. I believe most wargamers really love "reinforcements", we all love recovering units! This way, even if you are losing, you "win" something and game is funnier...
My initial thought is just to keep this particular game simple. The rules can get WAY out of hand quickly. However, I completely understand where you are coming from. I'll see if I can come up with something that will work. GAZ1 mentions the Duke can raise four militia divisions from the coastal communities within a week and another four divisions from the inland villages within the next month. So there is something take into consideration.
The "depleted" side of the units is missing.
Yeah, my initial rough-rough draft rules didn't even include half-strength units. Losing a battle would just cause a retreat of a hex or two. When I decided to go with the "depleted" units, I was at the point that I just wanted to post up what I had. Half-strength tokens are in the works...as are unit graphics for the tokens that don't currently have any (such as the goblins, etc.)
And please note that at the end of page 4, starting page 5, where it says "the BlackEagle" should say "the Karameikian".
Sigh...don't you love copy and paste errors? I've fixed it on the current download.
I'm really excited! A Karameikan wargame!
This has been a fun little exercise. I will also probably do a similar thing for the Almanac version of events (where the hin of the Five Shires move to take out the Black Eagle while King Stefan turns a blind eye).
With the movement of units using the Classic D&D rules as a base, it makes for a very slow moving game - the units just cannot move very far unless they are on a road. Makes me wonder how the Black Eagle expected to take Kelvin without having to go through Specularum first. I might change things up a bit and make the elvish and goblin units able to move through forests faster.
As for defense, just about every hex on the map provides some sort of cover. It makes it very difficult to make a sucessful attack...especially combined with the near inability to flank enemy units due to slow movement speeds. Again, the faster elf/goblin units might help this.
I imagine I'll have a new revision by the end of this week, after I get a few more playtests in.
With the movement of units using the Classic D&D rules as a base, it makes for a very slow moving game - the units just cannot move very far unless they are on a road.
That would mean maintaining control of the roads would be a strategic goal. I like the idea of certain units moving faster through the woods. Maybe some units could have an 'ambush' bonus to attacking in woods?
And here is a closer look at the Kelvin area.
Although it is a bit hard to see (the map was printed in black and white and the picture I took looks more brown for some reason), there is one lone Black Eagle unit left. Some poor goblins sitting in Threshold. Everything else was destroyed.
Some brief play notes:
The main Black Eagle Guard units put up a good fight. The quickly overran Radlebb Keep, but only made it about half way down the Westron Road before being surrounded and taken out. The lycanthropes got locked up early with the Karameikans in Riverfork Keep (the rules stating you can't move a unit if it starts adjacent to an enemy), which kept them from moving quick through the Radlebb forest towards Kelvin. Most of the goblin units got caught between the rivers surrounding Kelvin and just a few Karameikan units; it was enough to not let them retreat and thus eliminated fairly quickly. With all the rivers around it, Kelvin is one tough nut to crack.
The way things are right now, the game is very unforgiving of mistakes. The trend has been for the majority of the Black Eagle units to not survive for the full 14 turns (which, I suppose, it to be expected). In the game shown above, the Karameikans won by 35 points, if I remember correctly - a bit of a blowout. Therefore,some revisions to the victory points are in order.
"Five points for each unit on the Duke's Road for six complete and continuous game turns before the end of the game" turned out to be too difficult to track. So perhaps something along the lines of: Two points for each unit on the Duke's Road at the end of each turn. That will help give the Black Eagle player some points quickly in the game and give the weaker units a reason to hang around for the inevitable slaughter.
I like the idea of certain units moving faster through the woods. Maybe some units could have an 'ambush' bonus to attacking in woods?
I played with the idea of having the "forester" units (elves and goblins) who attack a non-forester unit within a forest ignores the column shift on the terrain effects chart. I intended to use this rule on the above game, but kept forgetting to actually use it. I also thought of also making "mountaineer" units (orcs and gnomes move through hills like roads, etc.), but didn't use that idea either this time around.
Another small change I might make in order to give the Black Eagle better chances is to allow units with 5 movement points (essentially the Black Eagle Guard and the lycanthropes) to withdraw from the Zone of Control of an enemy unit...perhaps only if they move west - a tactical withdraw, so-to-speak.
In general, the game plays okay. This particular scenario might end up being less of a "game" and more of a mental exercise to see how the Black Eagle can best screw up Karameikos before being taken out.
It is still a work in progress. Lots of changes and ideas to incorporate (like doubling the number of units). Ah! The stuff we put ourselves through for the love of Mystara!
I'm currently trying to print the map, but each sheet has a different hex size and they don't get together well. :-(
I think the forester and mountain bonus are a good idea.
Maybe in a game with double units, we could have some "neutral countries", such as some goblin hordes, Elves and Gnomes. Every turn each player throws a dice trying to activate one of those neutral countries which are not hostile (that is, Stephan can not activate goblins).
On activation, the player puts units as he wishes on an limited area (for example, activating Vyalia Elves, 3 elven units anywhere east of Rugalov River; or, if Orcs, "anywhere in Cruth Mountains, not hills").
This way, there could be some surprises.
I think quick moving units can be thought as "cavalry", which are not trapped by infantry zones of control. Buy any stack with cavalry DOES hace a ZoC that stops other cavalry units.
I'm currently trying to print the map, but each sheet has a different hex size and they don't get together well. :-(
I just printed it off using MS Paint. If you go to "Page Setup" under the "File" menu. Then in the "Scaling" section, choose "Fit To" and pick how many pages across and how many pages down you want to use. I used 4 pages across and 3 pages down then taped them all together; that worked out wonderfully for the size I made the game tokens.
Maybe in a game with double units, we could have some "neutral countries", such as some goblin hordes, Elves and Gnomes. Every turn each player throws a dice trying to activate one of those neutral countries which are not hostile (that is, Stephan can not activate goblins).
On activation, the player puts units as he wishes on an limited area (for example, activating Vyalia Elves, 3 elven units anywhere east of Rugalov River; or, if Orcs, "anywhere in Cruth Mountains, not hills").
I think the Karameikans have enough forces for the time being, but Goblinoid tribes could be convinced to join the Black Eagle forces if he shows he is successful enough (power begets power). So instead of just a die roll, how about if the Black Eagle reinforcements are based on the number of victory points gained? When a certain number is reached, some new units are added; when the next goal is reached, even more units join the battle, etc.
I think quick moving units can be thought as "cavalry", which are not trapped by infantry zones of control. Buy any stack with cavalry DOES hace a ZoC that stops other cavalry units.
Yes, the Black Eagle Guard move so much quicker than the others because the Companion book lists them as the only ones who are completely on horseback. Other units have a few number of mounted individuals, but it is less than 50%. I do, however, like the idea of having an opposing cavalry stopping the disengagement.
I've put all the changes in red so it will be easier to see what's different. And there's new units! I'm not entirely happy with the way some of them look (or play for that matter), but it's just a matter of fine tuning. Enjoy!
Wow! It is great to see my map being put to good use.Corey is my real-life alter ego. You can find other maps of mine here:
http://picasaweb.google.com/corey.sonnenberg
As I've been in exile in the Forgotten Realms for the last 20 years, I'm still deciding whether or not to return to Mystara for my 4E campaign. But don't let me derail this thread with that.
I'm still deciding whether or not to return to Mystara for my 4E campaign.
Of course you should! Why would you even question such a thing? ;) :D
Steve, I'be been without computer for more than a week, but I hope I soon will be able to print the map following the steps you wrote, and I will test this new set of rules as soon as possible. I'm really interested.
A big change is in the works. Due to the scale of the map and the units (about 100 fighting individuals), I'm seriously considering getting rid of the zones of control. Not only is it fairly unrealistic for 100 people to control what is approximately a 24 square mile area, but it would allow for more movement and tactical planning. It would also keep rather odd and annoying situations from arising - such as two weak units sitting across a river from each other and neither being able to attack or move away. Of course, that would get rid of the newer "tactical withdrawl" rule that I added last time. It might make for a better game experience in any case.
As I've been in exile in the Forgotten Realms for the last 20 years, I'm still deciding whether or not to return to Mystara for my 4E campaign. But don't let me derail this thread with that.
All who repent and return to the fold are welcomed back with open arms!