- The Known World or Outer World
- The World Under
- The Hollow World
Travis
I've been wondering, is there a canonical name for Mystara's "Underdark"? I've heard the term "Shadowdeep" in online discussions but I don't know its source. What about "The World Under", as used in the Broken Lands map? The three levels would be:
- The Known World or Outer World
- The World Under
- The Hollow World
Travis
I think I was the one who came up with the term Shadowdeep in a discussion with Cthulhudrew, GP and others. We also came up with the name Gwaithallen, which would be the Shadowelf name for the Shadowdeep, possibly also used by other races. I assumed "the World Under" simply referred to the region below the Broken Lands, while Shadowdeep would connect the World Under, the Caverns of the Shadowelves and other "Underdark" realms in the Known World, such as the Underyord, being an unofficial realm below the Northern Reaches. But I guess The World Under could be taken to describe that whole level of the setting as you suggest. Shadowdeep seems to have become quite widely accepted however
Havard
apparently there is no single term for the Mystaran "Underdark". Champions of Mystara calls the Sindhi "Underdark" The Land Below, while the SE gazetteer does not use any specific name.
Shadowdeep is a name proposed by Havard in this thread.
GP
Travis suggested elsewhere that each of Mystara's regions should have its own logo so that was what gave me the idea.
Comments?
Havard
Here's a possible logo I just drew up for the Shadowdeep
It looks good. Now, we would need some development of the Shadowdeep to go with the logo ;)
GP
It looks good. Now, we would need some development of the Shadowdeep to go with the logo ;)
GP
If I ever find the time to finish updating my Alternate Shires, I have a bunch of stuff on the Shadowdeep under the Shires, including the Glaurant city-states.
If I ever find the time to finish updating my Alternate Shires, I have a bunch of stuff on the Shadowdeep under the Shires, including the Glaurant city-states.
Good! BTW, I just used the Five Deep Shadows from your alternate Shires gaz to run a slightly modified version of B7 in Shireton
GP
Here's a possible logo I just drew up for the Shadowdeep.
Travis suggested elsewhere that each of Mystara's regions should have its own logo so that was what gave me the idea.
Comments?
Havard
That's nifty!
Good! BTW, I just used the Five Deep Shadows from your alternate Shires gaz to run a slightly modified version of B7 in Shireton
GP
Awesome!
Awesome!
Oops, I meant B6, "The Veiled Society", not B7 "Rahasia"!
I used Five Deep Shadows instead of the Veiled Society, and Syntir Bulorno's thieves to replace the Beggars (and a contact from the Veiled Society to replace Simeon Torenescu). The other Torenescu were replaced by the Shireton humans, and the Vorloi (only Fortunato and Lucia) by Ierendi merchants.
GP
Oops, I meant B6, "The Veiled Society", not B7 "Rahasia"!
I used Five Deep Shadows instead of the Veiled Society, and Syntir Bulorno's thieves to replace the Beggars (and a contact from the Veiled Society to replace Simeon Torenescu). The other Torenescu were replaced by the Shireton humans, and the Vorloi (only Fortunato and Lucia) by Ierendi merchants.
GP
Cool. I knew what you meant, as my brain immediately said 'VEILED SOCIETY' to me
It's kind of like "the Northern Reaches," where the northern countries are generally referenced by Known Worlders" by that same term (since half of them could care less what the actual country names are, anyway), and maybe the 'northerners' just refer to their collective lands as 'the Reaches' much of the time, too (in different social situations where it would be appropriate).
My 2 cents. :D
Travis mentioned "The World Under" above; I'm such a stickler for canon, I might use that for a term that humaniods would use.)
The full title of the map is "The World Under -- Lower Broken Lands". So, I'd call the area beneath the Broken Lands the "Lower Broken Lands", and use "The World Under" as the term for the entire subterranean realm between the Outer World and Hollow World.
I prefer "The World Under" since it contains the word "World", like the other canonical names: Known World, outer world, and Hollow World. "The Land Below" might be the name for the area of the World Under located beneath Sind.
According to this scheme, the maps of the various regions of the World Under (listed in this thread) would be titled like this:
- "The World Under -- Lower Broken Lands"
- "The World Under -- Realms [or Caverns] of the Shadowelves"
- "The World Under -- The Land Below", and so on
In the end, I recognize it's a personal aesthetic choice.
Travis
Havard
I'm not a native speaker of English, but "The World Under" doesn't sound very elegant to me. In fact I assumed this was intentional, as that is the way of Humanoids...
Nope, "The World Under" is good English and sounds poetic and formal. Similar grammatical constructions include "The Land Below" and "The Land Down Under" (Australia).
Travis
I like Shadowdeep, it just rolls off the tongue nicely.
Travis
Brekvarg (Land Above)
Lhakvarg (Land Below) - divided into the Vrasmok, Gaargmok, and Lhanmok "depth levels" (each comprised of dozens of dungeon levels)
Regions in a NWSE sense include:
Grongmok in the center
Orkmok to the N (fighting invading orcs)
Bronhkaat far W (manscorpion territory)
Braatmok (spores)
Angmok NW (cave crickets)
Rhialliamok - under Sind
The suffix of the last one is likely elvish in name as the Sheyallia are currently exploring the are to tap into oases and Lake Amsorak.
As for the whole "underside" I'd vote for a simple "World Below."
-OldDawg
Wouldn't a Humanoid name be something like "Duh Woyld Undur"?
Travis
That depends. Are they Brooklyn bugbears?
Beyond that, I suggest that a semi-official name will be decided by whoever writes the best article(s) on the region ;)
Havard
That depends. Are they Brooklyn bugbears?
If the trolls live in M-Manhattan (Trollhattan), then why not M-Brooklyn bugbears? ;)
Seriously though, I haven't yet studied the phonology of the "Humanoid Broken Thyatian" dialect, though I'd like to.
Travis
Hugin: Good idea about different names used by different peoples.
Just stumbled upon this one while checking out something else; the Azcan referred to the 'land of the dead' as Mictlan and so the Atruaghin name for the under world may be related to it. (HWR1 timeline)
I have to agree with Alcamtar and I think "The World Under" sounds off and not very fluid.
I still don't see how The World Under is anything more than archaic, as in the song lyric "I searched the world over, and thought I found true love" or the previously mentioned name for Australia.
Just to add to the confusion... The Orcs of Thar names the area beneath the broken lands as "The World Below", in contrast to "The World Above".
I'm glad to hear that The World Below is used as well. This might be a better name -- I do recognize that The World Below sounds smoother than The World Under to a modern ear. Anyway, the fact that "The World Under" is only an editorial variant of "The World Below", and that it is paired with "The World Above", confirms that these terms are not meant to be Humanoid Pidgin names.
Travis
I still don't see how The World Under is anything more than archaic, as in the song lyric "I searched the world over,
It would be different in the above case, at least. The phrase "searched the world over" is just another way of saying "searched all over the world." It isn't referencing the "world over" as a geographical location.
Arena of Thyatis module had a reference to 'the underdark', but don't have the module at hand to give its discription used.
I believe that PointMan is referring to the natural caverns under the Coliseum. Chapter 2 of the adventure consists of the players being 'initiated' into the ranks of the gladiators by being forcibly deposited into the upper caverns and told to make their way back to the cell level.
Ideas are given for expanding the caverns, possibly leading to Shadow Elf domains and even the Hollow World.
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On a separate note: I've read most of Havard's material on Thunder Rift and feel that the Serpent Caverns would make a great addition to the Shadowdeep. This article describes a connection to the Hollow World, but I see no reason why the Serpent Caverns couldn't be expanded to connect to the Shadowelf Caverns, Rockhome, or the Ylari underdark domains - the Thyatis Coliseum caverns too now that I think of it. It would also make for another, more interesting entrance/exit for Thunder Rift.
On a separate note: I've read most of Havard's material on Thunder Rift and feel that the Serpent Caverns would make a great addition to the Shadowdeep. This article describes a connection to the Hollow World, but I see no reason why the Serpent Caverns couldn't be expanded to connect to the Shadowelf Caverns, Rockhome, or the Ylari underdark domains - the Thyatis Coliseum caverns too now that I think of it. It would also make for another, more interesting entrance/exit for Thunder Rift.
Hey, that's cool man
My idea was that the Serpent Caverns (or Caverns of Ka as I have sometimes called them) are magical in nature and really may appear anywhere since they are ever changing. They are a kind of short cuts between the Outer World and the Hollow World (and perhaps also places in the Shadowdeep). Since they are constantly shifting they are hard to navigate. It is believed that the Tunnel Wanderers (Dwarven Gypsies of the Shadowdeep IMC) have mastered the secrets of navigating the Serpent Caverns. It might be interesting to add some other features of this region as well to make it more dangerous.
Getting descriptive here, travellers may know they are in the Serpent Caverns when they see winding tunnels often featuring cave paintings like hand pictograms and representations of snakes and great lizards on the walls.
Havard
... travellers may know they are in the Serpent Caverns when they see winding tunnels often featuring cave paintings like hand pictograms and representations of snakes and great lizards on the walls...
Do the Caverns work like Ravenloft's Mists; you don't necessarily find them... they find you.... ?
Do the Caverns work like Ravenloft's Mists; you don't necessarily find them... they find you.... ?
An excellent comparison!
The main difference between the two is that the Caverns are less sinister in nature, having been created by Ka. There may be some higher purpose behind many of those travellers sent through the Caverns. It just occurred to me that the Caverns are likely a Major artifact created by Ka. This would explain why they are able to operate as transportation magic within the Hollow World.
My main reason for creating the Caverns was to have a way of quickly sending characters back and forth between the Hollow World and the Outer World. The randomness of the Caverns ensures that this method of transportation does not disrupt any of the settings as it is useless for attempts at colonization etc...
Any ideas for powers, handicaps and penalties involved if describing the Caverns as an artifact?
Havard