It was posted a couple of years ago in the Italian Message Board, and it was progressively refined by other Italian users (Zendrolion, DM and Morgoth). The theory is not coherent with the other possible locations suggested so far, and it is mostly based on a "cartographic hole" in the Pearl Islands maps. See if you like it.
First of all, here you are the "cartographic hole": there are two missing islands in the Pearl Islands archipelago. Some official maps show them (Companion Set and Savage Coast, for example), while other maps do not (DotE, WotI and PWAs, for example).
Here is a selection from the Companion map showing the two missing islands:
Here is the northernmost of the two islands above in a Savage Coast map:
(Notice also that the PWAI entry about the Pearl Islands specifies that there are another 500 square miles of islands in the archipelago, not shown in the maps, so the two islands were not simply dropped from the latest maps).
The idea is to use these two "ghost islands" to detail Cathos and Vacros. The main advantage is that their position is in agreement with the information given in M2SOLO module about the setting. Most notabily:
# 1) Vacros and Cathos are part of an archipelago:
"These merchant lords (of Vacros) then became pirates and began to raid the local islands, including nearby Cathos, for sacrifices to their minotaurs. The people of the islands beat back these raids, and a large armed force, led by Lady Durnsay of Cathos City,invaded the isle of Vacros, destroying the great city and the foul temple."
# 2) Vacros and Cathos are divided by the Empty Channel, a strait that may be crossed in three sailing days with a small sailing ship (solo adventure) or in two sailing days with a larger ship and a stiff breeze (group adventure, at the end of the module):
"Amhadi's small boat is waiting. The old boatman hoists the sail and you set course across the Empty Channel toward Vacros... The passage across the enpty channel is swift and uneventful. The days are clear and warm, and a strong wind at your back drives you towards Vacros. At the end of the third day the island appears on the horizon..."
"The voyage across the Empty Channel has been quiet: two days of clear sky and a stiff breeze. Towards the end of the second day, your boat nears the island of Vacros."
If you estimate the average speed of a small sailing ship to 24 miles/day (36 miles/day with a stiff breeze), then the two islands should be separated by some 100-140 miles, which is quite in agreement with the distance shown on the Companion and SC maps above.
Notice also that, if the Empty Cahnnel is really devoid of islands, then the Thanegiot archipelago location for Vacros and Cathos is less likely, considering the much closer distance between the islands of this archipelago.
# 3) Vacros is a volcanic island, covered with jungle. Given the short distance between the two islands, also Cathos should be a tropical island:
"The maze of the riddling minotaur takes place on the northern tip of a large island abandoned for centuries by civilized men. There may be greater treasure and adventure among the jungle ruins of the city, as well in the volcanic highlands."
"You leave the boat behind as you follow Ahmadi up the foothills that surrounded the ruined city. The volcanic spires of Vacros make the island look like the evil place of the legend. You pass over a low ridge and see the ruins of Vacros City lying at the base of a large mountain."
"the weather begins to turn as you near the island: tall thunderclouds gather around the mountain's peaks..."
"Dark rain clouds gather over the island, and lightning dances around the volcanic peaks at the isle's center."
"At the top of the ridge, a view to the south shows the wreckage af what was once Vacros City. The jungle growth has covered most of the ruins; only a few shattered towers break the deep green roof."
#4) Cathos should be somewhere NW of Vacros. This is not an official statement but it is a reasonable hypothesis given the fact that in both the adventures of M2SOLO module the charachters make landfall in the northwestern shore of Vacros.
Placement inside other canon material:
If the location above is accepted, then it is possible to merge Vacros and Cathos with the sourrounding area with some ease. Notice, in fact, that the ancient Traldar migration to Davania passed very close to both islands, so both of them could be colonized by Traldars, thus explaining the M-Greek culture of the two islands. From PWAIII ("Davania" entry):
"Hundreds of refugees, including the king, perished during the voyage. After many terrifying months battling the sea and the fish, the Traldar landed on the coast to the southeast of the modern day Hinterlands(this land has been deserted for about three centuries). The Traldar settled at the mouth of a river, and survived by hunting and fishing. But the monstrous fish continued to terrorize them, capsizing fishing boats and even snatching people off the riverbank.
To escape this menace, a warrior named Androsar led the Traldar inland, following the river beyond the reach of the monstrous fish. They settled for a time in a desolate patch of hills and grasslands. Trouble with neighboring humanoids forced them on, into the jungle-cloacked hills on the edge of the great interior grasslands. Here they flourished, estabilishing the Milenian Empire. Androsar was the first Emperor."
In my opinion, a possible setting for the whole migration could be something similar to this:
In this map I included also some of the neighboring cultures of the area around BC 1000. The extreme vicinity of the first Traldar/Milenian settlement seems to me a point to the hypothesis of having the two islands inhabited by some scattered members of the migration.
Notice also that the Tanagoro (Nuari) colonization of the Pearl Islands happens at the same time of the Traldar migration, so it is possible that the two westernomost islands of the archipelago were colonized by the Traldar, while the rest of the islands were colonized by the Tanagoro. Moreover, the giant fish (the behemoth) that haunts this area in this epoch will likely discourage long journeys among the Pearl Islands, thus preventing large scale invasions or cultural assimilation between the Vacros/Cathos people, the Nuari and the Milenians of the continent. This situation goes on until at least BC600 (from PWAIII we know that the giant fish is still awake after the fleeing of the Thyatian tribes from Davania), but possibly not after BC500 (from DotE we know that in this century Ochalea starts shipping great amounts of grain to the Alphatian Empire).
Vacros and Cathos built both flourishing trading cultures, Vacros being the oldest and the largest:
"The island of Vacros is a dark, legendary place, a barren volcanic island banned to the people of Cathos and removed from their maps from hundreds of years. Long ago this island was the home of a mighty trading empire, an empire whose ships sailed throughout the known seas, returning with gold, strange gems, and great magic."
"Cathos and its capital Cathos City have become the new trading empire, touching port with many of the places to which Vacros once sailed..."
If the location above is accepted, then Vacros (and Cathos afterward) can trade with the Milenian Empire, the Pearl Islands, Ochalea and the Alphatian mainland (and possibly also with other less civilized places such as the Thanegiot archipelago, the Alatians and the Jungle Coast). The two islands should become very rich, accordingly to M2SOLO module.
(In the maze under the temple of Vacros City there is also an interesting statue of an elf "dressed like the elves dressed many centuries ago". Possibily some Vacros merchant route might lead very far in Davania or somewhere else).
Summarising, the Vacros/Cathos culture should be a kind of M-Crete, that substitutes the Nithians in international trade affairs after the fall of their empire and that precedes Thyatis, Ierendi and Minrothad fleets in Mystaran seas.
From M2SOLO we know that the fall of Vacros culture starts when the cleric kings of the island begin to worship a chaotic Immortal called Kiranjo, who is a patron of minotaurs. They built massive temples to him and reverted their trade activities to piracy:
"But it came to pass that the foul priests of a bull head deity, Kiranjo the Minotaur, turned the land of Vacros to evil ways. In the name of Kiranjo the men of Vacros built a great temple, and beneath that temple a huge mazework, which they stocked with savage minotaurs from the far continents. These merchant lords then became pirates and began to raid the local islands, including nearby Cathos, for sacrifices to their minotaurs."
"I am Kandros, leader chief of the bull headed people in service to Kiranjo Minotaur god. For years many we have been in service to Kiranjo, treasure guarding and sacrifice taking as is our duty. This was for many years as such, and we grew powerful as did the men people that also worshipped Kiranjo."
"Oltham wants revenge, for he is the descendant of the cleric kings of Vacros..."
We might add some more mundane causes to Vacros decline, such as the fall of the Milenian empire (50 BC), which suddenly deprives Vacros of most of its markets in the south and the rise of the Thyatian pirates/merchants who sail as far as Ochalea and the Pearl Islands in the wake of the first Thyatian/Alphatian war (0 AC, almost concurring with the fall of the Milenians). Possibily the cult of Kiranjo inserted itself in the social unrest caused by these external factors and so was able to seize power in the island.
(Another possible hint: what if the Milenian migration to Minaea of BC 100 was made thanks to Vacros merchant ships - and Milenian wealth? The Milenians should not be very accomplished sailors. Moreover, this migration required two years accordingly to PWAIII, which means that the Milenians stopped somewhere along the route. Vacros could have been the first stop...)
About the fall of Vacros, we can decide that M2SOLO is set around AC 1000, and so Vacros was destroyed by the Cathos army led by Lady Durnsay around AC 600, more or less at the same time of the Ierendan rise as a naval power. Notice that, from the quotes above, it seems that the Kiranjo cult thrived for many years after its introduction in the island.
A small hint about Vacros being populated until the last few centuries come from a scroll of protection fron lycantropes that can be found in the labyrinth underneath Vacros City. If we want to strictly adhere to canon, it is unlikely that this scroll was prepared before the lycantropic spread of AC 400, so the island should be inhabited until the V century AC.
That's all. I hope you like it.
Perhaps this will help us figure out the history of Minotaurs and Kiranjo. According to Marco, the official (?) regions that Kiranjo is worshipped in is:
- Davania (Jungle Coast, Meghales Amosses),
- Known World (Heldannic Territories, Vestland),
- Skothar (Minaea),
- Midlands (Borea),
- Vacros, and
- Hollow World (Milenia)
These places are all linked (with the exception of the Midlands) by the Nithians either through being subjected by them (the Antalians of the northern reaches transplanted to Davania), or derived from them (Traldars - Milenian - Vacros - Minaean).
I wonder if the Minotaurs are another one of animal-headed human creations/modifications. In another thread I surmised that it was the Azcan-Lupin interaction that birthed the animal headed facination.
[*more to come*]
Havard
I guess we also have another group that arrived this recion by this time, the non-magical cypri people that colonized some lands far from the alphatian magical tyranny. Assuming that the cypric civilization is our M-Minoans, pehaps they made it as far as Cathos and Vacros, colonizing it with the traldars?
BTW, Minoides and his followers were also fleeing from Nimmur by this time, pehaps some years later.
Indeed, it sounds like a good place for placing those islands (BTW, what are the other proposed areas? I couldn't find anything about it at the Vaults)
A long time ago I did a couple of maps with suggested locations in the western and eastern Thanegioth Archipelago.
More recently, there has been discussion of placing them in/around Minaea, perhaps in the Minaean Straits (they seem to fit better there, although I do like Lo Zompatore's theory here as well.)
Continuing my train of thought that began at work, and now that I've had a chance to look up some material, I was thinking that when the Manscorpions were driven from the Savage Coast by the Nithians and into the Orc's Head Peninsula, Minotaurs were discovered by the Nithians and brought back home.
These were descendants of the cursed followers of Gildesh who had fled Nimmur. The Nithian culture is fascinated with animal-headed humanoids and naturally brought many of these new creatures home to determine their significance.
Azcan-Lupin connection: After the GRoF, many Azcans and their Coyotl lupin slaves migrate east from the Sind Desert region to the KW area. Some take refuge in a massive plateau (becoming the Atruaghins) while others continue on to settle in the Nithian basin and merge with the Neathar arriving there. As the Nithian culture develops, the lupins end up being servants only to the rulers, leaders and the wealthy, and are carefully breed to reflect their station. The lupin are educated and revered despite the fact they are basically slaves.
Unfortunately, by the time Nithian explorers bring Minotaurs back home around 700 BC, the Nithian culture has began it's moral decline and the lupin servants (now known as Hutaaka) are unvalued and mistreated. Many escape, band together and flee to the southwest to create their own civilization.
The Minotaurs on the other hand are quickly recognized as formidable combatants and are used as guards and shook troops. They find themselves shipped nearly throughout the Nithian Empire, however, their numbers are never large. This gives rise to various results such as legends in Vestland, now extinct minotaurs in Thyatis, populations on the southern Isle of Dawn, Northern Davania, and a cult that develops on the small island of Vacros. Minotaurs also end up in Milenia and are also brought to Minaea on Skothar during their migration and subsequent trading.
Finally, the midlands are also populated by minotaurs that fled Nimmur in 700 BC.
Any holes?
Anyway, my working hypothesis was that there were prehistoric Minotaur men in the way that there were prehistoric Rakasta. They came from Davania (the Izondan region, I think, is where I was planning their origins). It was some of these Minotaurs that Idu changed into the Enduks. The remnants of them eventually migrated to other parts of Mystara, and evolved into different forms (the Yak-Men were going to be one of them, albeit a group that entered into a pact with otherworldly entities from either the Elemental or Spirit worlds. Canon has them with Elemental ties, but I felt that Spirit ties fit better for Mystara).
I had been working on a Minotaur writeup (a la the Creature Crucibles) around a year and a half ago- it was actually going to cover more than just Minos, theoretically (I was going to probably include other Ungulates, such as the Goat Men, etc.).
That sounds really interesting! If you ever get around to finishing it I'd love to read it.
Anyway, my working hypothesis was that there were prehistoric Minotaur men... from Davania... that Idu changed into the Enduks.
What do you plan to do about the history as given in the Orc's Head supplement? There it says that Idu created the Enduks, making them humanoid with a bull's head out of convenience instead of a human-like head on the body of a bull (in other words, a shedu like Gildesh was).
Perhaps the reason in was "convenient" was that Idu 'blessed' the base Minotaur to create the Enduks. If we go by this assumption, the 'curse' could basically have been the undoing of the blessing. I like the sounds of that, Cthulhudrew.
The remnants of them eventually migrated to other parts of Mystara, and evolved into different forms (the Yak-Men were going to be one of them, albeit a group that entered into a pact with otherworldly entities from either the Elemental or Spirit worlds. Canon has them with Elemental ties, but I felt that Spirit ties fit better for Mystara).
We could use both of our histories in conjunction with each other since they are complimentary. Oh, and I agree with the spirit world connection for the Yak-Men as well.
What do you plan to do about the history as given in the Orc's Head supplement? There it says that Idu created the Enduks, making them humanoid with a bull's head out of convenience instead of a human-like head on the body of a bull (in other words, a shedu like Gildesh was).
IIRC, I was basically going to treat the Idu creation myth as apocryphal. He created the Enduks in terms of altering the existing Minos to have wings and be adapted to flying (ie, making them smaller and altering their anatomy to accomodate), but that he didn't create the "base race" necessarily. Or else, I suppose, he could have possibly created the original Minotaur race, and then altered them later on to create the Enduks. If I'm not mistaken, Ixion is also credited with the creation of the Centaurs (another "hoofed" race), so that might fit.
Perhaps the reason in was "convenient" was that Idu 'blessed' the base Minotaur to create the Enduks. If we go by this assumption, the 'curse' could basically have been the undoing of the blessing. I like the sounds of that, Cthulhudrew.
That's the basic theory, and as noted, maybe he created the more primeval minotaurs long before as well. I wasn't quite sure how to tie the curse in with things, but I was thinking that the cursed minos would be a specific group of minos, and not the entirety of the species (ie, there would be some groups out there who evolved naturally from the baseline, the enduks, and some groups who evolved from the "cursed" enduks of Ixion- among the latter group, I imagine the Bargda would be a sub-grouping as well.)
We could use both of our histories in conjunction with each other since they are complimentary.
Definitely. I'll dig up what I'd done thus far (it wasn't a whole lot, sadly, just some ideas and a bunch of RW bovine species to use as sub-species- including the Atruaghin Buffalo-Minotaurs!) and see if I can't get something together that we can try and incorporate. I know that Havard was interested in this stuff a while back as well for something he was working on (and I never got back to him about it- sorry Havard!
)Oh, and I agree with the spirit world connection for the Yak-Men as well.
Yeah, it seems more logical to me. It might involve some alteration of the Yak-Men's powers (which I think was my major hangup about it), but since they've never been described for Mystara previously anyway, it's probably not a big deal. But they'd be located primarily in either the Ethengar/Glantri region (naturally) or else I might put them somewhere else, like Skothar.
Azcan-Lupin connection: After the GRoF, many Azcans and their Coyotl lupin slaves migrate east from the Sind Desert region to the KW area. Some take refuge in a massive plateau (becoming the Atruaghins) while others continue on to settle in the Nithian basin and merge with the Neathar arriving there. As the Nithian culture develops, the lupins end up being servants only to the rulers, leaders and the wealthy, and are carefully breed to reflect their station. The lupin are educated and revered despite the fact they are basically slaves.
Unfortunately, by the time Nithian explorers bring Minotaurs back home around 700 BC, the Nithian culture has began it's moral decline and the lupin servants (now known as Hutaaka) are unvalued and mistreated. Many escape, band together and flee to the southwest to create their own civilization.
Yes, that's basically the idea, but I guess the original Chochomecs were rather a allied tribe than mere azcan slaves, even including a elite Coyotl Warrior corp at the azcan army. But the proto-Hutaakans descendents of the Chochomecs could easily be indeed nithian slaves.
Anyway, my working hypothesis was that there were prehistoric Minotaur men in the way that there were prehistoric Rakasta. They came from Davania (the Izondan region, I think, is where I was planning their origins). It was some of these Minotaurs that Idu changed into the Enduks.
I had a very similar idea for the minotaurs that I included at my attempt to bring the Yezchamenid Empire to the Alphatian Sea: the Durkuri civilization of auroch-like minotaurs that are also the M-Kassites
That sounds really interesting! If you ever get around to finishing it I'd love to read it.
Me too!
Perhaps the reason in was "convenient" was that Idu 'blessed' the base Minotaur to create the Enduks. If we go by this assumption, the 'curse' could basically have been the undoing of the blessing. I like the sounds of that, Cthulhudrew.
That's something I wonder, could the Arm of the Immortal/west Orc's Head Peninsula region be linked with this blessing? We know that the Ee'aar were also blessed with wings, and there are many other winged races living at there that are related to races that originally never had wings, like the Krolli, the Lupasus and the Tyminid. Could this mean some sort of "red curse" over this region, giving/making it easier to give wings to the native races?