I'm sure there are many ways of using D&D 4E with Mystara, and personally I'm not convinced I will ever use that edition, but here is one idea for how to incorporate all of the options of 4E into the setting.
THE AGE OF DREAD
The age of Dread is an alternative timeline for Mystara. It assumes the following: After the Wrath of the Immortals, Benekander and other Immortals attempted to solve the problem of the Day of Dread which drains magic from Mystara. However, for some unknown reason (meddling of Entropics?) they failed spectacularly, releasing what has become known as The Spell of Dread instead. The Spell has effects similar to the Spellplague of the Forgotten Realms, draining magic and turning the Known World into a darker place.
Dread and Nightmare
The draining of magic brings Mystara closer to the Dimension of Nightmare which released new races upon Mystara: The Diaboli and the Tieflings. It can possibly also be used to explain other changes with the 4E creatures/races.
What other effects are needded? I haven't followed the discussions of 4E as well as some others, and we will have more information once the game his the shelves, but could this be a good basis for a 4E conversion?
Havard
When Mystara was adapted into 2E, there was no real thought given to inserting half-orcs into the mix. They just simply didn't exist in Mystara. A similar reasoning should apply to 4E.
I have nothing against playing in Mystara with 4E rules, but it is the rules that should adapt to fit the campaign, not vice versa.
In other words... drop tieflings and dragonborn. Write up some rules for rakasta and lupins.
Why does a campaign world have to be re-imagined every time a new edition comes out?
When Mystara was adapted into 2E, there was no real thought given to inserting half-orcs into the mix. They just simply didn't exist in Mystara. A similar reasoning should apply to 4E.
I have nothing against playing in Mystara with 4E rules, but it is the rules that should adapt to fit the campaign, not vice versa.
In other words... drop tieflings and dragonborn. Write up some rules for rakasta and lupins.
I agree completely!
Perhaps I should have explained this better. IMO there are two ways to convert a D&D setting to a new edition (2e 3E, 4E etc): Adapting the system to the setting does indeed seem like the most obvious one. Probably this is also the version that would appeal the the most to the majority of us Mystara fans since we love the setting just the way it is.
The other version, which some of us may even find offensive (I respect this as it is out of love for the setting) is to adapt the setting to the system. This is what is happening with the Forgotten Realms right now.
In the Mystara 3E project we spent a huge amount of energy discussing where the emphasis should be, rules or setting. I am proposing we do something completely different this time around: Lets do two separate projects!
The Age of Dread is an Alternate Mystara. It does in no way claim to be the official Mystara. In fact it would be interesting if one could travel between the two, as if the Age of Dread was a sort of Dark Future of Mystara. If you have read Marvel Comics, you'll know what I am talking about. In the Age of Dread, the 4E Meta-setting takes presidence over the existing setting. In this Reality, the world has been altered to allow for every option 4E presents.
The risk here is that you loose Mystara's soul and end up with a bland generic 4e setting that noone would care about. This could also be seen as a challenge: Can we use this as an opportunity to channel the most awesome ideas of Mystara into the 4E reality? For more Marvel analogies, maybe we could see this as a chance to create an "Ultimate Mystara" where core concepts are taken to the extreme and updated to the needs of a modern audience (not saying standard Mystara isnt wonderful the way it is). What is the Mystaran equivalent of making Nick Fury into Samuel Jackson? Could we make our Spiderman a fully fledged mutant and loose the webshooters?
Most important: This is not something that should presume to replace the Real Mystara. We all know that the Real Mystara is superior. This is just an idea for fiddling with the setting and reimagining some of its features.
Also, we should make a separate project for turning the real Mystara into 4E where the setting takes presidence over the system. Then people can pick and choose what they want: I like Ultimate Nick Fury, but I prefer the Classic Iron Man costume. Kinda like they did in the movie right?
Am I making more sense now?
Finally, I highly doubt I will ever play 4E, but its always nice to have something to talk about ;)
Havard
I say both and neither. If you change the system to match the setting... why even use that system at all? If you have to adapt the setting to match the system, aren't you just playing a different setting anyway?
This argument was my biggest problem with Jenni's M3E. (Don't get me wrong, I love her work, it was a great inspiration for me.) But M3e, before it stalled, was neither Mystara nor 3e.
My philosophy is not to change, subtract, or replace anything. If any modification is necessary, ADD.
For example, the matter of 3e elven race vs. 0e elven class: Instead of re-designing the elf class of 3e--leave it alone, but ADD an "Elven Magic" feat that will simulate the "inherent magic" of 0e elves. In addition, ADD to the description of elves, so that, from an RP perspective, everybody "knows" that all elves use arcane magic (even if it's not exactly true).
Subtract nothing. Change only the bare minimum. Add whatever is missing. Re-define or re-describe any other elements that don't quite fit.
Of course, that's just me.
Roger
The other version, which some of us may even find offensive (I respect this as it is out of love for the setting) is to adapt the setting to the system. This is what is happening with the Forgotten Realms right now.
I suppose FR is so bad it may even improve, this way :P
For most settings, though, I'd say they should take precedence on the rules or the generic meta-setting's mood.
The Age of Dread is an Alternate Mystara. It does in no way claim to be the official Mystara.
This thread is going more or less in the direction you propose:
http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1008334
GP
When Mystara was adapted into 2E, there was no real thought given to inserting half-orcs into the mix. They just simply didn't exist in Mystara.
Do you mean half-elves? Because Half-orcs did exist in Mystara- at least orc-human crossbreeds. They are specifically mentioned in Gaz11: Republic of Darokin and there is also one notable "half-orc" NPC- Angus McDuff/McClintock, son of Thar and Lady Myra McDuff
(And, frankly, even aside from Bruce's introduction of Savage Coast half-elves, there are precedents for half-elves in Mystara, but that's all getting a bit off-topic.)
I do agree with you that the setting need not/should not necessarily be reimagined in order to accomodate new rules, but (even as much as I dislike what I've seen of 4E), I don't think it would be necessary to change/alter the setting too much- if at all- in order to use the new rules to play in Mystara.
For all practical purposes, half-orcs don't really "exist" in Mystara, at least in terms of common knowledge to the people who live there. Orcs would treat it as just another humanoid race, humans too, and if they actually saw the human part in it, a mixture of shock, horror and revulsion.
For all practical purposes, half-orcs don't really "exist" in Mystara, at least in terms of common knowledge to the people who live there. Orcs would treat it as just another humanoid race, humans too, and if they actually saw the human part in it, a mixture of shock, horror and revulsion.
Oh, they exist, although they are very rare. I don't make them available for players to choose but that doesn't mean none exist. Generally speaking IMCs, a half-orc among orcs would be bullied to the point of death, and a half-orc among humans would be reviled, seen as the result of sin or evil, and driven out or killed.
Mystara even says there are no half-elves and then gives examples of them.
Personally, I don't like Tieflings or Dragonborn, but I know they could be inserted into the setting somewhere because it is so huge (with Mystaran background given, of course). I played the Known World for many years before the Lupin and Rakasta were suddenly introduced; didn't ruin my Mystara even though they were far from what I imagined D&D to be. Now I quite like them.
Mystara was built on the concept of 'adding on'. Those who play Mystara with 4E will experience that yet again. I'm not sure if I will convert to 4E or not but I'm fairly certain I will end up at least trying it. And in all honesty, there are practically no changes necessary to the rules system to play it in Mystara.
Mystara even says there are no half-elves and then gives examples of them.
There's plenty of half elves. There isn't a Half-Elf class, though, because the "genetics" of Mystaran elves and humans are not the same as those of other campaign settings: specifically, a Mystaran elf can have human blood in his ancestry, which is never possible for an elf from Oerth, Aebrynis or Athas.
Thus, half-elves in Mystara are just a mechanical fiction (since there is actually a continuum of part-elves, part-humans in varying degrees), while in the various AD&D worlds they have a clear biological definition (anyone with more elven than human blood, but not a true elf).
Even more true for the half-orc, since the hybrid rules from GAZ10 tell us that no two half-orcs will be the same -- some will lean heavily towards the human or orcish side (e.g., Angus McClintock is mechanically human), some will be midway between the two, and the same for all other hybrids.
Given the GAZ10 rules, one might say that Mystara actually allows many more halfbreeds than any other *D&D campaign setting or rules set -- find me another "Groll" build anywhere in *D&D!
GP
Why does a campaign world have to be re-imagined every time a new edition comes out?
When Mystara was adapted into 2E, there was no real thought given to inserting half-orcs into the mix. They just simply didn't exist in Mystara. A similar reasoning should apply to 4E.
I have nothing against playing in Mystara with 4E rules, but it is the rules that should adapt to fit the campaign, not vice versa.
In other words... drop tieflings and dragonborn. Write up some rules for rakasta and lupins.
I'll field this question with a multipart answer.
The first is that it doesn't HAVE to be reimagined. You need a sizable audience and I don't know if Mystara has that. I think it could and I think it would fit nicely into the idea that 4e is promoting (taking the best of the past 35 years and putting that together into one game).
The second is that it's not an obligation, it's an opportunity. There were a lot of things about Mystara that just flat-out weren't fun to use in a roleplaying game. This is an opportunity to cut out the warts, and Mystara has as many of them as Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms. Actually, I think Mystara has fewer warts, but it definitely has some parts of it that never really had the traction that it's iconic locations had.
The last is because it's less work. Redoing everything in Mystara and converting it faithfully into 4th edition just won't work. It's too big of a project. The Mystara 3e project took this tack and I don't believe it was successful despite the talent, dedication, and leadership that it had. It was simply too big and too messy of a task. A reimagining lets you keep the heart of the rule system (this is more important than you think ... again, I go back to the Mystara 3e project which had many lessons to teach) and really bring out the core story of Mystara and let that shine again.
I think the opportunity to reimagine Mystara is a great one. Mystara's core story is very similar to 4th edition's, but I'll be the first to admit that there would have to be some painful cuts to the canon of the setting.
Maybe it's just me, but i don't believe in rules making games, i believe in games doing the rules, bending them where necessary, and having backgrounds winning over statistics.
Being too much attached to gaming systems in the end makes rolling bonuses more important than plots, and believe me, it's true.You may be the best storyteller out there, but you may aklways find a players more interested in what he's going to get for his pc at level 15 than what the origins of the world he's playing into are.
Newer editions of d&d speeded up this process, creating more players interested in "cooling up" their characters, losing interest in plot development, being more self-centred at the point to bend the background itself only to see their pcs fitting in it, somehow.
Following the 4ed only because it gives some ideas, and because have some kind of nostalgic look to the first ed is not a good idea, at least for me.First ed rules used to be a mess, the characters sheets were so bad that in the end i never used them, some rules were just too vague about the gameplay effects, and there were quite a number of bugs.
I think that, giving a new look, spell system, main plot, feel, classes, and so on to Mystara is quite a good idea, in the end, it's the only good thing (aside from writing new gazeteers and and expanding the original concepts) we may do for it.Wotc it's just not going back to the Known World.I say it without remorses.Especially because i know how much quality working on this subject is requested, and i know how much qulity i get from wotc.
It's not an accusation, it's a matter of fact.There not just great incredible revolutionary games out there, game designers are not always interested in evolving ideas or creating complex, plot-wise games, and sometimes, medium quality and marketing research pays so much better.Nothing to be ashamed of, it's just business and nobody forces you to buy this if you don't like it.
In the end, i thnk that forgotten realms have nothing to teach to mystara, in any aspect, and world-changing events are one of those things.
...
...The Mystara 3e project took this tack and I don't believe it was successful despite the talent, dedication, and leadership that it had. It was simply too big and too messy of a task. ...
I think the 3E ran out of steam mainly because 3E was so rules heavy. No other version of D&D ever had such a huge statbloc for an NPC. In fact, I don't think any other game system ever had such huge statblocs. The 3E rules simply made it so much work to convert that in effect, it couldn't be finished.
I think the 3E ran out of steam mainly because 3E was so rules heavy. No other version of D&D ever had such a huge statbloc for an NPC. In fact, I don't think any other game system ever had such huge statblocs. The 3E rules simply made it so much work to convert that in effect, it couldn't be finished.
That's pretty much my point. While I was on the Mystara 3e project, the bulk of the development time was consumed by arguments about how to convert one small Mystara element faithfully into 3e. I think it took 2 months to decide that there would never be an agreement about how to host paladins in 3rd edition Mystara, despite the class that Paladin was a base class in the PHB. The incompatibility between the rules system became a sticking point for the project and they were basically trying to convert Classic D&D rules into 3e, which can and should fail every time.
Classic D&D isn't supported any more. It's never going to be supported again. Keeping Mystara tied to that rule system, or any other unsupported rule system, is selling the setting short, in my opinion. It's iconic enough that the Isle of Dread is making it to 4e and the core story of the game is heavily influenced by Karameikos. I think the setting is strong enough to warrant a new version of itself, one that's done with a lot of respect for the history of the setting.
D&D has come a LONG way since Mystara was conceived, and there are a lot of ideas that Mystara reached for that have now been developed. Mystara started the idea of the adventure path, but Paizo showed how to do them really, really well. Mystara started as a points of light setting, and 4e is promoting that idea to the core of the game. Mystara was really one of the first worlds to have documented places for different monster types, which is an idea that 4th edition drew heavily from. There are constant Mystara references by the best designers and developers in the industry, so it's clear that Mystara is stamped in the psyche of the gaming industry.
I think a 4th edition Mystara is a genuinely good idea. It shows respect to this rich and venerable gaming world by updating it with ideas that have been shown to be good. Realistically, professional, full-time development on Mystara ended over a decade ago, but there have been so many new ideas and processes that have been developed since then that Mystara misses out on. Also, the fact that Mystara was "closed" so long ago yet we're all still here passionately discussing it means that there's really something there. Something about it sticks in your mind.
That's what 4th edition is reaching for and I think Mystara is the best way to put it in context.
I think myself that most of the material in the gazeteers is edition-independent, which facilitates any conversion between editions. Karameikan culture remains the same whether Stefan is a Fighter (BECMI), Fighter with Noble Kit (2E), Fighter/Aristocrat (3E) or Fighter with a bunch of exploits (4E). I've used Mystara with everything from BECMI to 3E successfully without really feeling much of a change in flavor.
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Jumping back to the original OP:
Going the 'apocalypse changes the rules of the world to bring about edition conversion route'--
I will likely do my first 4E campaign on the basis 'the world always had this rule set', but here's my take on the core 'world rules change via Day of Dread' concept.
4E magic seems to be not as strong as the old Vancian system got at high levels, BUT you can draw upon it much more often. IE; you can permanently memorize some spells and other spells automatically return to your brain after use after a waiting period. (encounters and dailies)
So in some ways, magic is effectively stronger, as you can use it more often, if only a limited number of effects.
Also, there's a fundamental shift to where non-combat magics don't have to be memorized at all, but are now rituals for the most part, which can be done over and over so long as you have the material components needed.
At the same time, we know Mystara has dimensions where magic works quite differently than it does in Mystara proper. And we know that the Nucleus is currently somehow draining Entropy as of post-Wrath. My suggestion is that it is draining Entropy off into another Dimension and when the tampering happens, the machine goes haywire and draws that dimension into alignment with Mystara, imposing its rules over the world, causing the shift in the nature of magic. If we say that it's the Nightmare dimension coming through (as Havard proposed), then tieflings could be once normal humans who were infused by some of the nature of the diaboli, becoming half-human/half-diaboli. Some lizardmen would be transformed into dragonborn, various other creatures would change their nature as well to reflect the new rules.