I personally think that PS will be one of the first campaign settings not named FR or Eberron to be released for 4th. Sigil's subtle blurb in the DMG and some offhand comments by Michele Carter (I think? Sorry if I got the name wrong...) make me assume such.
So with that said, how do you see/or hope that it is handled? We know that the Lady of Pain is still around, Sigil is still a ring, it's still riddled with portals, but obviously with the new (and IMO, better) cosmology, it's not sitting in the middle of the Outlands at the top of the spire (unless the Outlands is an astral dominion floating in the Astral Sea...possible I guess).
I personally hope that the factions are back, b/c they would make for some great paragon paths IMO.
What do you hope for? Any ideas on how a 4th Ed Planescape should be done? Let's hear em!
-The city itself, I am sure, will be mostly the same. It'll be interesting to see how things pan out (depending on just when exactly the new Planescape setting is set) with the Faction War and all of that good stuff.
-The thing that bothers me, though, is the cosmology. Planescape was inherently connected to the cosmology that the 2e materials presented. It's not as if you can use the caveat that can be used in the Forgotten Realms to explain the changes- the sages were wrong, and it really is like this. With Planescape, you literally "saw" what the Planes were like. While all of this can easily be fixed in the new Planescape setting, it'll always have a "similar, but different" vibe to it. And, with the Bloodwar and everything "ending"? Weird...
-As I said in another post, a lot that make Planescape great was the "scenery". With the "scenery" changing, everything's inherently different...
-I agree that Planescape will probably be one of the first. I am thinking either Greyhawk or Dragonlance (or perhaps both!) will come before it though.
-The city itself, I am sure, will be mostly the same. It'll be interesting to see how things pan out (depending on just when exactly the new Planescape setting is set) with the Faction War and all of that good stuff.
-The thing that bothers me, though, is the cosmology. Planescape was inherently connected to the cosmology that the 2e materials presented. It's not as if you can use the caveat that can be used in the Forgotten Realms to explain the changes- the sages were wrong, and it really is like this. With Planescape, you literally "saw" what the Planes were like. While all of this can easily be fixed in the new Planescape setting, it'll always have a "similar, but different" vibe to it. And, with the Bloodwar and everything "ending"? Weird...
-As I said in another post, a lot that make Planescape great was the "scenery". With the "scenery" changing, everything's inherently different...
About the Bloodwar, wasn't it mentioned (by Rich Baker I think) that the Bloodwar wasn't over, but that it had turned into a kind of coldwar (vs. all out battles, although a few of those may still take place)?
And yeah, the cosmology is completely different; I think that it's possible that if (when?) Planescape is released, that they start from scratch with the fluff (b/c like you said, you could litterally go out and see the planes and how they interconnected).
But, although it may have a slightly (in my mind at least) different vibe to it, "different" dosent nessicarily mean "worse".
Of course, this is all speculation; but regardless, I'll fully support PS if they do release it. Best campaign setting ever (to me).
About the Bloodwar, wasn't it mentioned (by Rich Baker I think) that the Bloodwar wasn't over, but that it had turned into a kind of coldwar (vs. all out battles, although a few of those may still take place)?
-Yes, the out-and-out conflict that has characterized the Blood War has ended, and now, there's more..."covert" stuff going on, to better integrate players into the conflict itself, I guess.
And yeah, the cosmology is completely different; I think that it's possible that if (when?) Planescape is released, that they start from scratch with the fluff (b/c like you said, you could litterally go out and see the planes and how they interconnected).
-They'll have to.
But, although it may have a slightly (in my mind at least) different vibe to it, "different" dosent nessicarily mean "worse".
-No, of course not. But, like with the Forgotten Realms, I like the setting because of "what it is now", not because of brand name, or whatever. With Planescape, the same thing applies. When elements of the game that I liked are removed, well, the things that I like are gone. D'oh!
People at Planewalker would be much better than the current authors
another Die Vecna Die event is possible for cosmology rearangement
I'm looking forward to Pathfinder's new cosmology
And yeah, the cosmology is completely different; I think that it's possible that if (when?) Planescape is released, that they start from scratch with the fluff (b/c like you said, you could litterally go out and see the planes and how they interconnected).
I'd really like them to bring Planescape back, especially if it keeps using the old cosmology stating that the one in the PHB/DMG is an incorrect perception of it by those clueless primes. (what does a prime know about the multiverse anyways?)
Thankfully, my DM decided to keep using the old cosmology for his planescape campaign.
I hope they'll leave Planescape (according to what they've done with planar stuff so far) and license it
People at Planewalker would be much better than the current authors
-That'd never happen.
I'd really like them to bring Planescape back, especially if it keeps using the old cosmology stating that the one in the PHB/DMG is an incorrect perception of it by those clueless primes. (what does a prime know about the multiverse anyways?)
-That's a pretty cool idea. It'd never happen, though. Everything needs to be interchangeable and such now.
And I agree that WotC will not rent out Planescape to other publishers. They've hinted more than once that it's highly probable that we'll see the campaign setting make a (long overdue) comeback.
When elements of the game that I liked are removed, well, the things that I like are gone. D'oh!
But new cool things can happens to be, and that you grow to like.
For you guys who are ok with the changes in the new edition I hope it will be released. I really doubt it will be though, since I think they'll stay with the core campaign settings they had in 3rd edition.
I would very much like to see a planescape/spelljammer reconcepted medley.
Keep Sigil with factions and tie it somehow to the astral sea, which you use to involve spelljammer material. Reconcept parts of Sigil so they interplay better with spelljammer and vice versa, and ground the entire thing on the new cosmology. In short keep the feel and general ideas of the two settings but do not try to market them as revivals or new editions but rather as a new setting.
But new cool things can happens to be, and that you grow to like.
-Which doesn't in any way change the fact that the elements that I liked are gone.
I would very much like to see a planescape/spelljammer reconcepted medley.
-As I've said elsewhere, Spelljammer could possibly make a come-back in being tied to the "Astral Sea". Astraljamming the Astral Sea.
Add a large astral domain called "plane of concordant opposition" and give it similar properties as in 2e. You can walk to other astral domains like the abyss etc. The great wheel is just a way of looking at the planes, its all very subjective. You can add them all as astral domains. I do see some issues with the inner planes, but the astral stuff is easy.
The philosophies can be mapped to the new alignment system with similar ease.Even in the old system you had lots of exceptions to the 9 cardinal alignment idea.
Now if they would just hire Zeb Cook to write it....
I don't really care if they bring back planescape or not, because they've changed the cosmology so much that I'm no longer interested in it.
I agree, its really kind of a sick joke on people who had hoped for a revived Planescape for the past decade. At least this time I had already built up some emotional calluses, so the disappointment hurts less than other recent changes. Of course, immersing myself within the evolving Forgotten Realms meta-story had helped me get over the initial cancellation of Planescape...
But new cool things can happens to be, and that you grow to like.
I already know what I like, thanks. I liked most things I learned about Planescape and the Forgotten Realms from the get-go, and that's why I became a fan in the first place. I don't have the inclination to develop an "acquired taste" for something I hate over the course of several years. That's also why I will never drink Diet Coke.
I want to be able to run Planescape in 4e without having to do all the heavy lifting myself.
I know they'd probably feel the need to change it just for the sake of changing it, but i'm guessing nine out of ten changes would be a step backwards in my opinion. (Nixing the Blood War to make it more "PC centric"? Uh... that's kind of exactly the opposite of how i used the Blood War in my campaigns (that being something the PCs, no matter what level, really really want to avoid) and it's the same thing for every other experienced Planescape DM i know...)
Why is everyone assuming they have to use the new cosmology from the core setting?
everything has to fit core now
it can be modified into new cosmology, the new cosmology is awful tough, especially the Astral Sea
the new PC-centricness is nonsense, developed from people don't know how to throw PCs into epic stories
everything has to fit core now
wah, really? I have a hard time believing that. I could see them fitting the Forgotten Realms into it (they've already changed the Realms cosmology once before, for 3rd ed.) but I can't really see how Eberron could work without the 13 orbiting planes thing. Where did you read this? I'd have though everyone would have learnt their lesson about confusing setting and rules from looking at the mess 2nd edition got into 
I have just yesterday picked up my core 4.0 books so i haven't yet had time to delve into the new cosmology, but some of my friends think its okay. This is a little hard to swallow in first gulp for me because i played planescape alot in 2nd and even 3rd editions. I'm worried that wizards will focus on bringing new people to planescape and neglect those who have already played planescape.
but alas i digress, and finish with the stating that i will buy any and all planescape books that will be released.
ps: dont ignore the planar archives and 3rd edition websites, as they need jobs too
that's like D&D should be all about, roleplaying and stories
Why, that's an excellent idea.
While we're at, why don't we pregenerate the characters for the PCs to use, prevent them from doing anything that would deviate from the plotline in any way, add a rule that says that the DM can automatically make any roll by the PCs fail for RP reasons, and if they don't adaquately describe each and every single action, no matter how trivial, in order to see if they mesh with the story.
[/sarcasm]
Look up "Railroading" sometime. You might be suprised to learn how similar it is to the kind of game you just surmised.
Why, that's an excellent idea.
While we're at, why don't we pregenerate the characters for the PCs to use, prevent them from doing anything that would deviate from the plotline in any way, add a rule that says that the DM can automatically make any roll by the PCs fail for RP reasons, and if they don't adaquately describe each and every single action, no matter how trivial, in order to see if they mesh with the story.
[/sarcasm]
Look up "Railroading" sometime. You might be suprised to learn how similar it is to the kind of game you just surmised.
clearly you are confused. Part of good roleplaying and a well told story is that it's the exact opposite of railroading for the characters involved. There is no possible "RP reason" for a DM to make every roll fail other than poor story telling on their part. What you're talking about is bad DMing, nothing more, nothing less. It has nothing to do with story or roleplaying.Sorry, that was a bit impulsive of me.
My apologies.
-One of the 'themes' is that there is "One rules to rule them all", as people like to say. Something that's in a Core book should be useful to a player/DM who is playing in, say, Eberron, or the Forgotten Realms, or say, Dark Sun. Likewise, things that are in the Forgotten Realms Campaign Guide should be useful to people who are playing in Eberron, or Dragonlance, or Planescape. And so on, and so forth. The degree to which this will happen, we'll see. At worst, it has the potential to eliminate the things that make individual settings unique. With the Forgotten Realms, one of the things that made it unique (Mystra and the Weave) have been eliminated so that the 4e Magic System can work (the words of Chris Perkins, a designer), so...
Really it could be similar to Stargate or something...step through a portal to some unknown/known locale and do your thing.
The biggest turn off I have had so far with 4e is alignment...in all the years of playing DnD...it just doesnt make sense to me.
They have said that they are still going to keep the "Great Wheel" theme going...But I dont see how some planes are going to even be able to stay around...
LG, G, Unaligned, E, CE
I really just think it is foppin stupid that there is no chaos to good and no law to evil...
check this
Pathfinder Chronicles: The Great Beyond—A Guide to the Multiverse (OGL)
http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/paizo/products/v5748btpy84bb
by Shemmy
by Shemmy
-The most important part.
So the Blood War, in the sense of the all-out violence, is over?
I can dig it, but what the hell came up that made the Tanar'ri and Baatezu actually STOP hacking away at each other and settle for glaring at each other across the gulf (What's there again? The prime? What's that? Who needs it? It's getting in the way!
) that separates the Astral Sea from the Elemental Chaos?So the Blood War, in the sense of the all-out violence, is over?
-More or less, yes. And, of course, only if you want it to be, in your own games. While, in my own setting, I've never really touched too much about extraplanar events, it's still going to be going on, and going strong.
I can dig it, but what the hell came up that made the Tanar'ri and Baatezu actually STOP hacking away at each other and settle for glaring at each other across the gulf (What's there again? The prime? What's that? Who needs it? It's getting in the way!
-They finally decided that Coke is better than Pepsi?
For now, I've found this article quite useful in complementing 4e with Planescape: http://www.planewalker.com/080719/the-planes-reordered-4e-planescape. The only things I would possibly change are to put all the former outer planes (except the abyss of course, and possibly Limbo) in the Astral Sea.
Pathfinder Chronicles: The Great Beyond—A Guide to the Multiverse (OGL)
I hope folks will enjoy it. It's not Planescape, and lots of IP is out of bounds for me to use, but lots of homage to PS in there. You could run a PS game using the cosmology, and it would handle the themes and atmosphere well, but if you didn't like certain aspects of PS, I think you'll find it to your liking as well. Course I still have to write the book, but the Pathfinder Campaign setting has a chapter on the cosmology which the other book will expand on greatly.
And with respect to WotC putting out a 4e Planescape setting... I would put money that it will never happen. By putting Sigil in the 4e default PoL setting and cosmology, that's a nail in the entire idea's coffin, because releasing a 4e Planescape would compete with the new PoL cosmology. They're putting their stamp on everything for better or for worse (poor poor FR...), and I just can't see Planescape being released using its own tropes, themes, and cosmology.
The only thing you might see would be a planar book or two for the PoL cosmology. No Blood War, Factions likely reworked to fit the PoL stuff, history reworked or ignored to fit the PoL cosmology and changes to fiends and celestials alike. It wouldn't be Planescape, no more than would Barovia as a province of Cormyr and having Drizzt running around killing undead be Ravenloft.
Comments by various WotC designers about putting bullets in Guardinals heads, thinking Bytopia was the primary NG plane, and how FR's cosmology is getting changed for the second time in two editions... magic 8 ball says unlikely, and it might be better that way.
Quick question pertaining to this.
So the Blood War, in the sense of the all-out violence, is over?
I can dig it, but what the hell came up that made the Tanar'ri and Baatezu actually STOP hacking away at each other and settle for glaring at each other across the gulf (What's there again? The prime? What's that? Who needs it? It's getting in the way!
The Blood War didn't stop. In the 4e PoL setting, it never happened. 4e is an entirely different game/assumed setting/cosmology than 1e/2e/3e. It's a complete reboot of the IP for the most part.
:DBut anyhoo, Planescape with the new planes:
The new astral plane does seem more interesting. Need a new realm for a god? Just add it instead of having to re-make the great wheel or figure out where it would fit in.
It's not like any places were destroyed. The Great Wheel just broke apart and all the layers and sections are floating free.
Having the Astral Sea be a realm of floating worlds suddenly makes Sigil much, much more important.
Firstly, you cannot easily travel between worlds anymore, as there is no interconnection between planes. Sigil becomes this vital and key trading hub. All travellers go through the city.
This adds a greater emphasis to the faction strife as they're all fighting for a piece of a very lucrative pie.
Secondly, it emphasizes the "Cage" aspect to Sigil as you cannot leave. It's floating in the middle of a sea with nothing surrounding it. The *only* way out is through portals, which are likely tightly controlled and highly sought after by the aforementioned factions.
But I'm doubtful that Planescape will get the full campaign setting treatment (ie Campaign Setting, Player's Guide, and an adventure). There's not really any key Planescape-only races (beyond the now core tiefling and the aasimar) or classes. And there's not alot of places to describe other than Sigil that won't be in the Manual of the Planes. More likely Sigil should just get a write-up in that book with some follow-up articles in Dragon.
Pathfinder seems the right choice now, both for Prime (now that they killed FR) and Planar stuff
There current approach is to not be slaves to symmetry, which in reality means they want to go a new direction and enslave themselves to a new symmetry. Honestly the new 4e Cosmos works, but compared to the older Cosmos it makes less sense.
The reason being is that they are going to cram the material from the older planes into the new cosmos. Like the Abyss in the Elemental Chaos, and Nine Hells in the Astral. Are all the other planes like Mechanus or Carceri just going to be locations in either the astral or elemental chaos...maybe even potentially sections of fey or shadow?
From the looks of it they are going to introduce a Planescape-like setting. The tiers are going to focus on different locations, heroic is going to center around prime, fey, shadow...while paragon is going to deal a lot with elemental chaos...and epic is going to be playing around on the astral and the deep elemental chaos...the Abyss.
Just take solace that it is a game system that lets you design it how you want it. It is not hard to play the old Cosmos in 4ed...nor will it be hard to make something that works for you and your group. Imagination is the limit.
As someone who only marginally enjoyed Planescape I seem to be in the minority because I think the new cosmology works better for the setting than the old. Makes me think much of the rejection and love for the Great Wheel is just nostalgia or a dislike of change...
-I, personally, never cared too much about the actual layout of the planes (ie, this one is next to that one, and borders this one, and so on). But, with the new 4e cosmology, like in 3e, a lot of locales have been lost. Paraelemental Planes, Quasielemental Planes, all of those kinds of things.
-I, personally, never cared too much about the actual layout of the planes (ie, this one is next to that one, and borders this one, and so on). But, with the new 4e cosmology, like in 3e, a lot of locales have been lost. Paraelemental Planes, Quasielemental Planes, all of those kinds of things.
I wouldn't say that. Think of it like this: the middle of Elemental Chaos contains a bunch of buffeting winds, rumbling earth, burning pyres and waves of water, along with possibly equal patches of magma, ice, smoke and ooze. Now, think of how the planes are always described. They're infinite, yes? Then why are there spots where it's said to be "upper" or "lower", exactly? Well, I have no flipping idea, I just always accepted, much like most of you, but that's not my point. The point is, in all this infiniteness, there's are parts. The upper parts are still those sections of earth and wind, fire and water, all in the middle, but also made up of cool mists, shining gems, flashing lightning and brilliant colors. Perhaps there's even a bright light, like a sort of anti-Abyss. Who knows? Speaking of the Abyss, it's been told that the Chaos is a sort of maelstrom with the Abyss at the bottom. But what about leading to that? Well, that's where this part of the universe (depending on your view of the worlds) begins to fall apart. When your going strait to hell, or it's chaotic counterpart, you being to see that the water beings to dry to salt, the earth begins to crumble to dust, fire flicker into ash and even the air itself becomes unbreathable. All the elements return to normal when you actually get the Abyss and it becomes livable, but think about it: could anyone ever consider that life to be "living"?
Now, think of how the planes are always described. They're infinite, yes? Then why are there spots where it's said to be "upper" or "lower", exactly?
Upper and lower are subjective descriptions really, like Shurrok being "above" Dothion in Bytopia. From the perspective of a person on either layer, the other is above them. It's just convention for one being typically termed above or below the other. It's similar with the layers of Hell or the Abyss, none is objectively above or below the others, it's just by the convention of in-game planar scholars that they're depicted one way or the other on conceptual maps.
All the 4e changes did was remove a lot of conceptual subtlety, detail, and complexity.
I wouldn't say that.
-I would. Does the text describing this new place specifically mention the existence of such Para- and Quasi-Elemental Planes? Yes, in your own game, there's nothing from stopping you from adding them in, but the game text as it is does not include such places.
-I would. Does the text describing this new place specifically mention the existence of such Para- and Quasi-Elemental Planes? Yes, in your own game, there's nothing from stopping you from adding them in, but the game text as it is does not include such places.
And yet I would hold at least part of that argument. I remember seeing that there was some sort of mention of ice, but reading it now see now that it also says lightning, a sea of lightning in fact. So while I can agree that there might no longer organized parts, but the presence of such sources are something I'll argue for quite a while
-Until it is written in a sourcebook, or something that dictates things in an official capacity that X place exists in the new cosmology, it doesn't. You can homebrew whatever aspect it is to your own liking, but the official text doesn't say, "The Para-Elemental planes blah, blah, blah...".
Vacuum is boned.
Vacuum is boned.
-Not really. When the fire burns out all of the air in an area? Something like that works if you want it to.
Ok, speculation time.
I personally think that PS will be one of the first campaign settings not named FR or Eberron to be released for 4th. Sigil's subtle blurb in the DMG and some offhand comments by Michele Carter (I think? Sorry if I got the name wrong...) make me assume such.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I just think it would be ironic if, after abandoning the Great Wheel cosmology and partially dismantling the alignment system, WotC would then publish a 4E version of a campaign setting that was specifically tied to both of those things.
That said, I know that one of the reasons for the planar changes was to make planar campaigns more accessible. So yes, they'll probably bring out a 4E Planescape before too long. (Whether it will actually be recognizable as Planescape is another story....)
EDIT: Now that I think about it, the 4E Manual of the Planes, announced for later this year, will probably take care of 4E planar adventuring, so maybe they don't really need 4E Planescape. (After all, there's more to the Planescape campaign setting than just adventuring in the planes, and I'm not sure how much of it would survive the translation to 4E.)
LG, G, Unaligned, E, CE
I really just think it is foppin stupid that there is no chaos to good and no law to evil...
There's no logical reason to say that there's Lawful Good, but not Lawful Evil, or that there's Chaotic Evil but not Chaotic Good. I had fully expected that they'd just jettison the Law-Chaos axis entirely. Not my preference, but at least it's logical.
I suppose the implication is that Chaotic Good isn't different enough from Neutral Good to be a separate category, and the same is true for Lawful Evil and Neutral Evil: they're still there, but they're included in the neutral categories.
I'm not saying you're wrong, I just think it would be ironic if, after abandoning the Great Wheel cosmology and partially dismantling the alignment system, WotC would then publish a 4E version of a campaign setting that was specifically tied to both of those things.
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