No amount of earthly, mortal magic can allow anyone to know the alignment of another. In 4th Edition, the alignments were trimmed down from nine to five. In this instance, due to such a change, and the loss of the ethical alignment paradigm, any power or spell or magical item that would normally let you detect someone’s alignment automatically fails. You can no longer detect ethical or moral alignments anymore.
Firstly, there isn't alot of alignment detection in 4e. No detection spells or powers. At all. So this is unnecessary.
Necromancy. This idea is crazy-broken. It basically gives some classes (those with necromantic attacks) much more power and makes those abilities more deadly than other powers of that level.
Plus it greatly increases the damage of monsters without an increase in level or xp.
Plus it uses the term "saving throw" in the context of avoiding an effect. That's not what saving throws are in 4e.
Turning. See above. This basically makes undead invincible. They do more damage, their weakness is less effective AND any ability targeting their Will defences is much, much less likely to hit. A level 10 undead would receive a +5 bonus. A level 20 undead would receive a +10 bonus!!
Saving throws against fear/horror. This is a misuse of the saving throw mechanic, which is a duration tracker.
Okay... where to start.
Okay let's start.
Firstly, there isn't alot of alignment detection in 4e. No detection spells or powers. At all. So this is unnecessary.
This, I know. However, it's good to cover your bases just in case something like this does occur.
Necromancy. This idea is crazy-broken. It basically gives some classes (those with necromantic attacks) much more power and makes those abilities more deadly than other powers of that level.
Plus it greatly increases the damage of monsters without an increase in level or xp.
Uhh, actually, that's how it worked in Ravenloft 2nd and 3rd edition.
Plus it uses the term "saving throw" in the context of avoiding an effect. That's not what saving throws are in 4e.
Actually, I took the context of the saving throw system, and modified it slightly, where the saving throw system takes effect at teh end of a turn when an effect demands a save to end, in this case, the effect demands a save to end the efects of fear, horror or madness but in this case to stop them before they start.
Turning. See above. This basically makes undead invincible. They do more damage, their weakness is less effective AND any ability targeting their Will defences is much, much less likely to hit. A level 10 undead would receive a +5 bonus. A level 20 undead would receive a +10 bonus!!
Don't see how, honestly. Invicible no. Turning in Ravenloft was always more dificult. Ravenloft is a world where evil is stronger.
Saving throws against fear/horror. This is a misuse of the saving throw mechanic, which is a duration tracker.
Actually, that's exactly what the mechanic is being used for, so I don't see where the misuse is coming from at all.
Necromancy taps into the Negative Energy Plane
There is no Negative Energy Plane.
There is no Negative Energy Plane.
Doesn't exactly say there isn't, but I guess the Shadowfell would fit. The Etehreal and border etehreal should still be there.
Uhh, actually, that's how it worked in Ravenloft 2nd and 3rd edition.
Okay... brace yourself.
This isn't 2nd and 3rd edition. It's 4th Edition which is about balance and hard numbers for monsters.
You can't make monsters that much harder just cause. If you make them harder you increase their level and give out more xp to compensate (and increase the level of encounters using monsters).
For the invincible comment, let's look at the 4e lich. We'll template it to a level 11 controller monster. How about the Snaketongue Celebrant.
Suddenly, all it's attacks deal double damage. It's ranged whip suddenly does 2d8+10 damage. And anyone who steps within its aura takes 10 necrotic damage. Suddenly it's doing damage equal to a level 25 controller or a level 16 soldier.
Or the death master template. Suddenly goes from summoning 4 minions to 8 minions.
This gives the undead greater protection from effects that would directly harm or drive them away. As such, whenever an effect is aimed directly at the undead, the undead creature’s Will Defense gets the benefit of their full level, not half their level.
So in theory, Mr Level 11 lich's will defence against all attacks that harm or apply forced movement jumps from 28 to 32.
Of course, this ignores page 184 of the DMG where it states that monsters already add their full level to AC.
This isn't 2nd and 3rd edition. It's 4th Edition which is about balance and hard numbers for monsters.
I think I will stick with no duh, on this. I think I am starting to see a pattern that you've never played a Ravenloft campaign setting game before.
I think I will stick with no duh, on this. I think I am starting to see a pattern that you've never played a Ravenloft campaign setting game before.
You might be surprised.
But just because a campaign setting did X in the past with old rules, doesn't mean it's at all a good thing to do now.
Having "Turn Undead" work less efficiently in Ravenloft was fine back in the era of THAC0 and unbalanced classes, but it simply doesn't fly now. You cannot just make monsters more powerful without increasing the rewards for defeating them or increasing it's appropriate level.
You can't just nerf clerics, weakening half their abilities and reducing the effectivness of one of their key class features. That's like suddenly saying fighters can't make Opportunity Attacks and all weapons deal less damage. But every other class is unaffected.
I'm not saying PCs can be put up against more powerful foes or face creatures that are resistant to their abilities or lack the standard vulnerabilities or are more powerful that standard versions of the creature.
But these more powerful foes would also be higher level versions of said monsters.
That's the point of Ravenloft. They are suppose to be more challenging and more dangerous because the plane is so close to what was then teh negative material plane. Home field advantage and all.
Right. And this is done by increasing the level (and xp) for the undead. They're instantly tougher and more deadly but still balanced.
The increase in Necrotic damage, just like 2nd and 3rd edition, seemed like a nice idea at first. But The_Jester makes a very good argument, since that boosts the damage of monsters to a much greater level.
Perhaps it would be best to just increase the damage die of all necrotic damage. That would give necrotic powers a boost without compromising much of the game balance.
The saving throw idea for Fear, Horror and Madness checks is good, but I would use something different to determinate the severity of the Fear/Horror/Madness. Maybe counting how many saving throws the character failed instead of knowing by how much the character failed the roll.
Anyone have any idea on how to deal with powers checks, like which power or bonus to give a player in each stage of his corruption?
Great. Alignment is more ambiguous in 4e and that works well with Ravenloft. I'd say you've got the right idea here.
Necromancy and the Undead
Just use 4e as is and assume it's already boosted. Boosting necrotic damage or undead really messes with the encounter system in 4e. If you want to boost a given undead give it some levels and up its experience value appropriately.
Turning and radiant Damage
Just use 4e as is. Turning isn't that strong. It'll be fine. Upgrade the monsters if you want them to be stronger rather than making players more likely to whiff and miss.
Fear, Horror and Madness
Making the Saving Throw
There's too much variance on the d20 roll. It's a flat probability and probably should be used for duration tracking and not for figuring out intensities.
I like the idea that a given horrific situation can "attack" the player, but I think the rest needs work.
Alignment's a great example. There's no need to put a rule out that "you can't detect good and evil", just to cover bases in case someone creates that spell... because they never will. It's a core design concept that taking a strong alignment will always be a help, not a hindrance. Labelling someone, or detecting their intent through a spell, simply will not happen.
Although Ravenloft has always had core mechanics that set it apart from D&D, that's not what made the setting Ravenloft. What makes Ravenloft a great setting is... well, the setting. The Darklords, the creepy creatures, the genuine Gothic horror of it all.
How do we get that into 4e? Not sure yet. But it won't be by using the same mechanics that served us so well in the past.
I think I will stick with no duh, on this. I think I am starting to see a pattern that you've never played a Ravenloft campaign setting game before.
I don't normally post on the Wizards board, as I think their policy stinks and they don't deserve my custom, but the sheer sneering uninformed arrogance of this post was too good to pass up.
Go to fraternityofshadows.com (the primary Ravenloft-related site left worth giving a damn about) and check out Jester's wealth of advice and contributions there. Check out his excellent writing in the netbooks and the work he's done as a moderator and member of the Fraternity. He's played campaigns. He's run campaigns. He's one of the pre-eminent respected people who have devoted good time and effort to maintaining the Ravenloft line of fan-made products. So yes, in baby words, he knows what he's talking about.
And then pull your head out of your lower digestive cavity and try reading his damn posts once in a while instead of flaming your wisers and betters. Seriously.
(And yes, this is a flame. And no, I don't give a toss. Ban this account if you want to - it outlived its purpose a while ago.)