Anyone else have a similar (or opposing) view and experience?
Anyone else have a similar (or opposing) view and experience?
The way we've played it: In the Known World, it's thyatian. A couple of thousand miles west, and it would be hulean. A couple of thousand miles east, and it would be alphatian.
The way we've played it: In the Known World, it's thyatian. A couple of thousand miles west, and it would be hulean. A couple of thousand miles east, and it would be alphatian.
I'm the same way. I read "World" as Region in quite a few situations in D&D. Such regions would include The Known World, Norwold, Alphatian Empire, the Savage Coast as well as many less known areas.
In the Known World, the common tongue is Thyatian. Keep in mind that though a character will speak his native tongue fluently, he will only speak Common at the level of his Int score. That not-so-bright fighter might be lacking some vocabulary as well...
I use the same principle when dealing with Druids by the way. There is more than one Hierophant druid even just in Mystara's Outer World.
Havard
I have found that my players and I enjoy the challenge of language barriers when the PCs travel to different countries. I know that doesn't work for some, but it's fun for us.
Anyone else have a similar (or opposing) view and experience?
The Common Tongue may be unrealistic, but it makes the game more playable. You can always have the odd weirdo who doesn't speak it for whatever reason, but I'd think it'd make the game drag unnecessarily if the PCs had to spend weeks every time they entered a new country (or burn feat slots) to learn languages just to do things like get rooms or buy food.
In 3e campaigns I demanded that one of the bonus language slots was used to learn "common" (basically a widely known language according to the region where the campaign takes place). A character with low Int would have run into language problems as soon as he left his home country.
But IMO it's not worth the trouble. As long as the majority of the characters can communicate with the populace I ignore the difficulty completely.
Huldvoll
Baron von Bomberg
The Common Tongue may be unrealistic, but it makes the game more playable. You can always have the odd weirdo who doesn't speak it for whatever reason, but I'd think it'd make the game drag unnecessarily if the PCs had to spend weeks every time they entered a new country (or burn feat slots) to learn languages just to do things like get rooms or buy food.
Uhm, I don't think this should ever happen: in RW, do you expect to have to learn a new language every time you travel to a foreign country for a few weeks? Most likely, you'll learn a few words (probably names of common foods and beverages), but you'll not have the time (and need) to truly learn the language. Moreover, you expect at least a fraction of the local people to know English (the modern "common", but not the first in history).
My take on Common is that neighbouring nations are going to have to use some common language for trade -- in the KW, this is likely Thyatian. So, even if the average Alasiyan, Ethengarian, or Atruaghin doesn't know Thyatian, merchants and other people who frequently interact with foreigners will have at least some knowledge of it -- maybe not good enough to provide interesting conversation, but certainly enough to further their own businness.
Obviously, "Common" is going to change with the region -- you can't expect people in Hule (even merchants) to speak Thyatian. However, PCs travelling in a given region for a sufficient time (6 months at least, I'd say) would almost automatically learn enough of the local language to be able to carry on everyday tasks (though not gaining the language proficiency, and thus not being able to follow complex or fast conversation, for example).
Finally, the "concentric" structure of most D&D campaign is such that PCs at low levels generally stick to a single region (their home nation, usually), while higher level characters progressively explore larger areas of the world. At that point, though, spells (Comprehend Languages, Tongues) and magic items will provide most of the necessary translations.
GP
Uhm, I don't think this should ever happen: in RW, do you expect to have to learn a new language every time you travel to a foreign country for a few weeks? Most likely, you'll learn a few words (probably names of common foods and beverages), but you'll not have the time (and need) to truly learn the language. Moreover, you expect at least a fraction of the local people to know English (the modern "common", but not the first in history).
My take on Common is that neighbouring nations are going to have to use some common language for trade -- in the KW, this is likely Thyatian. So, even if the average Alasiyan, Ethengarian, or Atruaghin doesn't know Thyatian, merchants and other people who frequently interact with foreigners will have at least some knowledge of it -- maybe not good enough to provide interesting conversation, but certainly enough to further their own businness.
This is how I handle it, too. The typical warrior in Atruaghin's Elk clan is not likely to know Thyatian. However, the Atruaghin traders that meet Darokin caravans at the World Elevator do speak it. In the same way, a Karameikan traveler visiting Ylaruam will have no problem finding innkeepers and merchants who speak Thyatian.
The only time that language would be a barrier is if the PCs have to deal with people in various nations that don't normally converse with foreigners. If Darokinian agents want to approach one of the Ethengaran clans that may not be entirely devoted to the new, rising Great Khan. This conversation may not be possible in Thyatian. The agents may have to study the Ethengaran's own language (or use a spell, if available).
Another example could arise from running the X4/X5 modules. As that adventure progresses, the PCs move deeper and deeper into territory where Thyatian would not be spoken. In this case, the language barrier becomes a key plot element. How will the PCs make their way thought Hule without being able to understand the local language? Casting spells may allow communication, but spells are typically obvious in their use. This aspect of the adventure would be lost if one were to use a blanket 'common' language. The use of a regional 'common,' apparently a frequent occurence with DMs, can preserve such an important plot device.
Of course, the approach taken to language in you worlds and campaigns, depends on the preferences of the gaming group and the needs of the campaign story. Still, it's interesting to see what others think....
This works with guides, advisors, cultural liaisons, money changers; basically the world around them.
Planar Trade sometimes
Common is not realistic, I don't use it
But we're talking a fantasy world here for a game of make believe . . . :P
I also like to use the language problem as a good excuse to get the PCs to spend some coin and interact with more NPCs; in this case interpreters. The PCs can't do everything themselves. They need help and that help will cost them a bit of their wealth.
This works with guides, advisors, cultural liaisons, money changers; basically the world around them.
Very good thought. It definitely helps the players immerse themselves in the world, a goal I strive for in every campaign I run. Of course, it helps to have players who enjoy that style of play ... but that's another topic entirely.
Finding a guide, interpreter, etc, also makes for great uses of some social abilities -- great opportunity for the bard or rogue character to make use of his urban skills.
Hmm, do I spend 5 ranks in learning Diplomacy in order to be able to recruit interpreters, or do I spend those 5 ranks in learning five different languages fluently?
That's why I never used Speak Language as it appears in the book. Also, if I understand it correctly, it is a cross-class skill for everyone so it requires two points to get one rank.
That's why I never used Speak Language as it appears in the book. Also, if I understand it correctly, it is a cross-class skill for everyone so it requires two points to get one rank.
For most classes, that is true. However, for one class, Speak Language is a class skill -- Bard. One point per language.
But we're talking a fantasy world here for a game of make believe . . . :P
That's a major reason for not using it. If common is not believable, it detracts from the game -- by disrupting the suspension of disbelief.
G.
I'm not sure if I'd set up an adventure where there was a "language barrier." If it fits, then I'd use it, but probably only once. It can make things interesting at first. After the first time, any communications barrier I find is probably going to be more of a nusance than an interesting device.
That's a major reason for not using it. If common is not believable, it detracts from the game -- by disrupting the suspension of disbelief.
As you say, "if it is not believable". There are plenty of examples of "common" type languages having existed in the real world both presently (ie. English) and historically.
What might be debated is whether this language should be commonly available or not, and whether it should apply world-wide or just for a greater region.
Personally I have always been of the belief that just because you let PCs have it doesn't mean every random peasant will have the same ability commonly available to him. PCs might get the Common as an automatic language since they are well travelled adventurers, but Commoners of a given country might not know it (and thus cause problems for said PCs if they are outside their home country).
As with Stuntman, I have rarely found that communication problems lead to fun (there are exceptions), just as illiteracy usually only leads to situations where DM handouts are ignored by the players...
Havard
Havard
As you say, "if it is not believable". There are plenty of examples of "common" type languages having existed in the real world both presently (ie. English) and historically.
Yes, but there is also plenty of proof that not everyone speaks (or spoke) those common language -- how many people spoke Latin in the middle ages?
And, while in northern countries English may truly be common, it would not be as easy to get around knowing only English in many parts of Italy (for example).
Thus, for me it is not very believable that everyone in the Hollow World speak Neathar, because in my experience a common language is never as common.
GP
Yes, but there is also plenty of proof that not everyone speaks (or spoke) those common language -- how many people spoke Latin in the middle ages?
Some spoke latin, others used various pidgin tongues were used for trade and communication between people.
And, while in northern countries English may truly be common, it would not be as easy to get around knowing only English in many parts of Italy (for example).
True. I have had so much fun travelling to small towns in parts of Europe where English knowledge is quite limited, using whatever common words we'd know combined with sign language, gestures etc. Great fun!
Thus, for me it is not very believable that everyone in the Hollow World speak Neathar, because in my experience a common language is never as common.
Agreed. Neathar in the Hollow World is an example of a not so believable language. Thyatian in the Known World is less of a problem IMO.
Another question is, once you accept such Lingua Francas to exist, is as you ask in your examples; how widespread should the knowledge of these be.
Far from every European knows English today and far from every medieval European knew latin.
Should then Common be a free language for PCs? It depends on your view of PCs. IMC PCs are exceptional beings, perhaps prone to travel, and equipped with above average capacities. Thus, I have no problem giving them Common for free. If I wanted a more realistic approach, I might give it to them at 2nd level rather than at 1st level, based on the thinking than some experience would be needed before than knowledge is gained.
If your view is that a PC is "just another guy" at 1st level, then you might want to change this.
In the case of the Hollow World, Neathar is the language which many modern languages are derived from, as well as a language used in trade in many areas. Personally I might limit Neathar to Northern Iciria, since most cultures there might be assumed to have some contact with the Neathar. On Southern Iciria, Nithian might be a more widespread tongue. Other languages may be the common tongue outside Iciria.
Havard
This is one of the silliest RPGs ever created. You play a stereotypical caveman with a handful of stats (”light” doesn’t begin to describe it) in a cartoonish caveman world, but the real beauty is the lexicon: cavemen only know 17 words — and in character, those are the only words you’re allowed to use.
If you can spend an evening running away from dinosaurs and shouting “Me go bang big hairy thing cave!” at your friends without having a good time, something is wrong with you. There’s really nothing quite like Og.
Play it because it takes a great gimmick and spins it into pure, ludicrous joy.
Taken from: http://www.gnomestew.com/hot-buttons/the-12-rpgs-every-gamer-should-play-before-they-die
Incidentally, even without playing that game it makes for an awesome character concept - I can only speak 17 words - brilliant!!
17 words. So hows that for a common language. I guess you just have to hope everyone understands the same 7 words.
In LotR, everybody spoke English. In Star Wars, a whole GALAXY speaks English, and even if you can't speak it, you can understand it. In every fantasy movie I've ever seen, everybody spoke English, and nobody bats an eye at it. Everybody in Star Trek speaks English.
It's not that big a deal.
Agreed. Neathar in the Hollow World is an example of a not so believable language. Thyatian in the Known World is less of a problem IMO.
Sure, but that depends strongly on the local conditions: Hulean is a perfect common within the very large Hulean empire, and Thyatian is quite common in the Known World (though you'll have problems in the Atruaghin lands or in Ethengar). But Neathar is totally unbelievable.
Should then Common be a free language for PCs?
It doesn't matter much -- it's more whether the people PCs are speaking to know common ;)
In the case of the Hollow World, Neathar is the language which many modern languages are derived from, as well as a language used in trade in many areas. Personally I might limit Neathar to Northern Iciria, since most cultures there might be assumed to have some contact with the Neathar.
Frankly, the justification given for Neathar in the HW book is poor -- it's really hard to believe that a language could achieve the status of world-wide common without a significant cultural and economic backing, and the Neathar are very primitive, as far as Hollow World cultures go, on both sides.
My solution is that case is to use regional common languages: http://pandius.com/hwtrdlng.html
GP
In LotR, everybody spoke English. In Star Wars, a whole GALAXY speaks English, and even if you can't speak it, you can understand it. In every fantasy movie I've ever seen, everybody spoke English, and nobody bats an eye at it. Everybody in Star Trek speaks English.
No one actually speaks English in any of those. English is only the language used to render the most common language of the setting (e.g., the conversations of the Lord of the Ring and those in the Silmarillion don't happen in the same language) -- and then only when presenting it to a natively English speaking public. Myself, I've never heard anyone in Star Trek speak a word in English -- on the other hand, I happen to know people who speak a little Klingon.
In general, the construction of fictional languages is an important part of setting development:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fictional_language
You might note that all three works you've mentioned feature multiple fictional languages with a high level of development (e.g.: Klingon, Mandalorian, Huttese, Binary, Quenya, and Sindarin). Why were these languages developed, if English was enough?
As to the disbelief thing, that's purely subjective. As in most things, it depends on how deep your interest in the topic is.
G.
P.S.: The Ewoks don't speak and don't understand Basic. The heroes need to rely on C-3PO's translation skills to converse with them. Also, translator droids seem very common in the Star Wars universe, meaning that not everybody speaks Basic.
P.P.S.: In LotR, most Elves of Lothlorien don't speak Westron -- e.g., in the arrival scene Frodo & C only speak with Haldir, because Rumil and Orophin speak little or no Westron.
One of the long-time facets of D&D has been the concept of a 'common' language that nearly all PCs, anywhere in the world, speak. I have always dislikely that small detail, and in Mystara have found it easy to dispense with the notion of a worldwide common tongue. With the many detailed nations depicted in Mystara, it is a simply matter to decide what nations might have their own language or might speak some other language based on their historical origins.
The Gazetteers I've read don't say anything about a worldwide Common and thereby imply that there isn't one, just languages that are widely spoken in particular regions.
The Gazetteers I've read don't say anything about a worldwide Common and thereby imply that there isn't one, just languages that are widely spoken in particular regions.
You are correct, the Gazetteers do not address that topic much. However, the base D&D game rules do. The suggestion in the Gazetteers that other languages are used in different areas prompted me to dispense with a global 'common' language.
In the Alphatian (Thyatian) Sphere of influence its Alphatian (Thyatian).
But thats only to determine which languages the natives of this nation might speak in addition to their home language. A peasant in Karameikos might speak ONLY Traldaran - or if lucky he might speak a bit Thyatian or Darokinian too. A merchant, inkeeper will speak Traldaran and or Thyatian (depending on his customers). He will speak quite good Darokinian too as Darokinians are the prime traders here. (I am not sure but Minrothad uses Elvish/Thyatian?).
PC usually start with 2 Laguages - Their native Language and the Language of the Nation the first adventure(s) take place.
Languages can be learned with spending skill slots.
Other "Common" languages might be Darokinian (Traders), "Northern" (Vestland, Ostland, Norwold Region, Heldann Region), Hulean (West of Sind),