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#1 phaaf_glien Jan 16, 2009 13:33:06

I present to this forum a question with which I have been wrestling for some time. It is a 2nd edition question, and it will affect my game soon, depending on how I solve it. I implore your learned assistance. On the subject of fiends, namely baatezu, yugoloths and tanar'ri, there are occasions when, especially amongst the more powerful fiends, certain of these monsters carry weapons. I provide some pertinent examples (this is not a thorough list): Baatezu -barbazu and their saw-toothed glaives -gelugons and their long spears -pit fiends and their clubs (or other weapons from treasure lists?) Tanar'ri -balors and their vorpal lightning swords -maraliths and their 6 prized weapons -molydei and their vorpal dancing axes Yugoloths -mezzoloths and whatever weapons they carry -nycaloths and their axes -ultraloths and their swords and pole arms, which they wield with "expert precision" My question is, do any of these fiends gain extra attacks when using these weapons, such as warriors do? This is a rather complex question, I must say. For instance, the gelugons have considerable attack abilities with their natural weapons, and indeed, especially if you include their listed extra claw damage, it would not be wise for these incredibly intelligent fiends to really use their spears, as they would in the end very likely do less damage than they would with their natural attacks. Thus, as a dungeon master, it is tempting to consider giving them, for instance, 3/2 attacks a round, as a normal warrior with that type of HD might receive. There are other problems. The balor, for instance, is a particularly vexing one. First of all, as far as 2nd edition goes, the damage listed for the lightning vorpal sword is somewhat vague, as the Monstrous Compendium: Outer Planar Appendix as well as the Monstrous Manual do not list damage dice for the sword, simply saying "by weapon" for the damage dice, and it is only in the Planescape Monstrous Compendium, Volume I that we are introduced to the 1d12 damage dice for the swords. Even in consulting 1st edition for a reference, there still is no damage dice offered. If we take 1d12 as the base answer, we are still left with questions, for other fiends, such as baatezu and tanar'ri, all get damage modifiers for their weapon usage, but balors are not given strength scores, and the lightning swords are likewise not awarded any attack or damage modifiers for being "vorpal", such as the standard +3 bonus. If we award high strengths, for instance, the lightning vorpal sword might inflict, accepting the d12 damage dice, 1d12+13 (+3 for standard vorpal bonuses, +10 for strength modifiers). On the other hand, a DM could rule that the sword has no vorpal modifiers, is insubstantial when inflicting damage (hence no strength modifiers), and thus really does only inflict 1d12 damage. Such damage is fairly weak however, and even though the blade is vorpal, such an interpretation makes for a fairly weak balor, a balor which might not be too useful in the Blood War, for baatezu are immune to magical fire, and thus the bodily flames of the balor are useless against them, and the whip, which causes but 1d4 points of damage, is fairly minimal. Altogether the damage possibilities of such a balor would pale before its archenemy the pit fiend, which has 2 claw attack, 2 wing buffets, a lethal bite and tail attack, thus six attacks, every round (granted the balor, given its tanar'ri immunities, would be immune to the pit fiend's horribly poisonous bite attack). A way to make up for the balor's perceived weakness in this realm would be to award it multiple attacks a round, say for instance, 2 attacks a round with the lightning sword, as it has 13 Hit Dice, making it comparable to a 13th level warrior, who would gain 2 attacks a round at 13th level himself. These problems could go on, and I could describe at considerable length. Now, granted, I would not award multiple weapon attacks if used in conjunction with a multitude of natural attacks, the pit fiend being a case in point. The pit fiend can wield a club by sacrificing one of its claw attacks, but I would not normally give it extra attacks with this club in conjunction with its remaining physical attacks... it would have to choose between them. Much of this is a perception of power of the fiends, I admit. I in general, like things to make sense, in game, thus comes my questions about gelugons getting extra weapon attacks, for otherwise they might just use their claws (yes I am aware the spear's bitter cold has a slowing effect on victims who fail their saves, but we need be wary of such reasoning... what would you do if you were in in-game battle?). Also, I do not like the idea of a pit fiend being able to trounce a balor in a straight up fight... the two great fiends should be able to fight fairly toe to toe, and even-keeled. I have searched 2nd edition adventure modules and other Planescape boxed-sets for assistance and guidance in these matters. I have found little. There are contradictions more than answers, unfortunately. In one Planescape adventure, I found gelugons dealt with differently than in the Planescape MC-1. For example, it was odd to see that the Planescape MC-1 gelugon added its strength bonsuses (+4) to its natural attacks, which generally is an exception to the rule (natural attacks in 2nd edition at least do not get added strength modifiers... the yugoloths are one of the only exceptions to this general rule of thumb), as indeed none of the gelugon's fellow baatezu get their listed strength bonuses added to their natural attack damage (e.g. gelugons get 1d4+4, 1d4+4, 2d4+4 and 3d4+4 damage dice, even though the paragraph description omits the +4 modifier, in comparison to the pit fiend, who receives 1d4/1d4/1d6/1d6/2d4/2d6 damage dice listings. Why is the gelugon different? Why don't cornugons and pit fiends receive these modifiers? One adventure module from Planescape amended the gelugon's modifiers, which was probably a sound decision, as it seems to have been a mistake (the MC - Outer Planar Appendix for instance, does not list the +4 being added to ever damage dice... only to the weapon, like normal). As for extra attacks with weapons, save from unique beings like Bel, the pit fiend lord of Avernus, who gets 3 attacks a round with his enhanced lightning sword... there is only one reference in 2nd edition to fiends getting extra attacks with their weapons. This is in the adventure module A Paladin in Hell, where "common" gelugons are awarded 2 attacks a round with their spears (p. 29). In the same adventure module, however, no other fiends are modified when it comes to extra attacks. Even the balor has the flat 1d12 damage dice from its lightning sword. What can any of you make from this? Would you give balor 2 attacks a round with its lightning sword? Would you give the balor strength bonuses and the sword's magical bonuses, as the molydeus gets the +5 bonus to its vorpal axe? Would you award such bonuses in conjunction with extra attacks? Why or why not? Ultraloths are described as being able to wield their choice weapons "with expert precision?" Are they specialized? Might we award ultraloths at least 2 attacks a round, as they are 13 HD? Do nycaloths or mezzoloths get extra attacks per round, say for instance, 3/2 attacks per round? Surely we must look to balance. Not all players play warriors, and priests and rogues might be forced to fight fiends. Thus giving extra weapon attacks adds appreciably to the power of the fiends. At the same time, 2nd edition fiends are generally not hit point tanks, and are not always so powerful as we imagine, if we take what the rule books offer straight up. A 13th level fighter, properly equipped, might be able to mow down a 13 HD balor fairly easily, if we given him just the flat d12 damage dice to his sword, even given the fact that the sword is vorpal. Certainly, whatever is decided, probably should apply to all. We do not want ultraloths with multiple attacks just hacking through balors with no multiple attacks. I have gone on long enough. What do you fellows think? Please answer in 2nd edition terms, as this is what I play. If you have 3rd edition insights however, please offer them, as I am not too familiar with 3rd edition (much less 4th), and would welcome any wisdom gleaned from the later editions. Yes, I am aware of unique fiends, and that some of these unique fiends might be specialized "fighters" and even wizards and priests. I am not talking about those beings. And furthermore, as to unique fiends, I am generally of the opinion that most fiends, especially the senior fiends of the various races, should all be generally "unique." In my view, regardless of the level of your PCs, you should not just have generic pit fiend, balors, maraliths, arcanaloths, etc. All these top tier fiends should be portrayed in high and mighty terms to players, in my mind, and reducing them to a run of the mill type description cheapens the thrill of including fiends in the game in the first place. If you want run of the mill, through the lesser fiends at your PCs. (Happily, I am of the opinion that 6HD and less fiends should not get extra attacks a round). Now, certainly there are truly exceptional senior fiends... there can be pit fiend wizards and so forth, but again, I am not speaking of these (definitely not even pit fiend or arcanoloth should be a wizard or a priest, or whatever). One of my players is quite insistent that we play by the book, and that I accept things "as is", regardless of contradictions and anomalies. I find this difficult to accept wholeheartedly. Monster stats need to be taken in context, and most of the stats for the 2nd edition fiends were carried over without too much thought from 1st edition, where only fighters and not any of the other warriors classes received multiple attacks per round until Unearthed Arcana showed up. 2nd edition fiends need to be put in context. I don't want my senior fiends being mowed down like candy by powerful PCs, but at the same time I do not want them to be unfairly powerful with lower-level PCs, especially non-fighters, are dealing with them. Please assist with your thoughtful observations and comments. How should I rule? I would appreciate your advice.