Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jun 17, 2003 16:39:00	Does anyone no how the new DLCS is going to build Minotaurs? I personally hope it is closer to the Savage Species version with an ECL. With the right ECL they will be easy enoght to deal with an accurately portray the physical supperiority of the race. Considering the D20 Half-Orc can have a starting 20 STR the Ansalonian Minotaur should be way higher. The average minotaur is a magically altered Ogre vs a half human hybrid and carries over a foot and a half and 150+ pounds on the average human. That is a fairly radical difference. Again with the right balance of racial penalties and the proper ECL it can be balanced in a campaign. Any thoughts?
#2 shugi Jun 17, 2003 17:55:57	This is all postulation, but I'm pretty sure that DL minotaurs will have an ECL of +1 or +2. Comparing them to half-orcs is an exercise in futility IMO, since orcs don't exist on Krynn. I know a DM or two who have used the half-orc race for minotaurs, and it's decent for a quick-fix. My preference would be to give minotaurs the following: +4 Str, -2 Dex, +2 Con, -2 Cha. Base speed 30'. Horns. Low-light vision (makes more sense than darkvision IMO). Natural armor +2. Scent. +2 racial bonus to Survival. Favored Class: Fighter. This looks decent for an ECL +1 race.
#3 zombiegleemax Jun 17, 2003 18:35:01	I pretty much use a slightly toned down version of the MM Minotaur with slight modifications. Physical: Height: 7.0' to 8.5'+ Weight: 350 lbs - 550 lbs+ Horns: 1d12 + 12" (males), 1d6 + 6" (females). Various shapes; such as upward curve, downward curve, no curve; and pointed forward, up, down, back. Fur: White - Blonde - Grey - Black - Brown - Red Eyes: Brown - Green - Blue - Red Lifespan: 150 yrs, adult at 40 Face and Reach: 5' x 5' / 10' Large Monstrous Humanoid Ability Stat Modifiers: +6 Strength Bonus +4 Constitution Bonus -2 Dexterity Penalty -2 Wisdom Penalty -4 Charisma Penalty ECL +6 Racial Features: Natural AC: 15 / 14 (+5 natural, if large -1 size) Speed: 30' Spell Resistance: nil Save Bonuses: Fort +2 Ref +5 Will +5 Hit Dice: 6d8 + Con modifier x 6 , then by class. Starting Level: Begin at character level 8 then add class. Advancement: By character class. - Base Attack +6. - Darkvision 60'. - If large suffer -4 to Hide. - Horns (gore) 1d8 + one half Str bonus. - Charge [ex] 4d6 + Str and one half bonus. - Power Attack. - +6 Intimidate, +4 Jump, +8 Listen, +6 Search and +8 Spot. - Natural Cunning [ex]: immune to mazes and maze spells. Never caught flat footed. - Scent [ex] locate creatures within 30' by concentrating for 1 round. Treat as Track (with Wisdom checks). Initial Languages: Giant. Alignment: Usually Lawful Neutral Favored Class: Fighter
#4 lugnut71 Jun 17, 2003 20:25:38	I disagree with the minus 2 dex. I don't know about the written products but the books show them to be in any way clumsy. Most of them stand even with humans. I would keep the minus to charisma since they are so arrogant. I figure they would run around +2 ecl.
#5 zombiegleemax Jun 18, 2003 5:00:09	I'd put -1 to dexterity and -3 to wisdom.
#6 cam_banks Jun 18, 2003 7:53:22	Originally posted by lost_boy_84 I'd put -1 to dexterity and -3 to wisdom. That would be fine, if racial modifiers to ability scores were expressed as odd numbers. Since they aren't, this wouldn't work. Cheers, Cam
#7 zombiegleemax Jun 18, 2003 8:44:43	My biggest problem in developing gaming stats is that when I look at the nature of the beast, I see the exceptions... not necessarily the rule. Primarily in the case of Minotaurs I don't see why they should suffer such a stringent CHA penalty. I know for the case of balance primarily but from the creative writtings based on Krynn's Minotaurs you can see them as dynamic, strong, charismatic leaders. I envision their society very similar to the Romans (which I don't believe is a surprise to many) and warriors first and foremost. Personally if I was building a Minotaur from scratch, I'd give them a penalty on INT and perhaps a small penalty on WIS, but leave CHA and DEX alone. -Gilles
#8 jrblasingame Jun 18, 2003 9:16:53	that if you really think about it the minus to charisma should really be only for when the minatour meets a member of a different race. The snobbish/racist attitudes of the Minatour race as a whole wouldn't be a problem for most (90+%) of the Minatour population, just everyone else. Also, there should not be a minus to Dex. In keeping with the way Minatours have been potraid in novels and more important the actual gaming books, they have never had a minus to Dex. I attibute this to the fact that they are continually eliminating the weaker of their species through Arena combat. A slow, clumsy warrior is a dead warrior. J.Blasingame
#9 zombiegleemax Jun 18, 2003 9:58:51	That is considering mino vs mino or versus weaker\slower creatures in the arena. I think that if they were to fight an elf or human, for example, in equal grounds(the elf or human wouldnt b locked waiting for the fight and possibly for his death, no starvation, ...) The minotaur should receive a penalty in his dexterity, maybe the DM could remove that penalty after the minotaur works his way up the arena in his town for example but until then they should have the penalty when fighting other creatures.
#10 zombiegleemax Jun 18, 2003 10:15:02	I agree. The Average Minotaur stands 7 feet and 350 pounds with some reaching 8.5+ and 500 pounds+. That kind of weight makes for a massive physique even given the greater height. If you look at Humans, people with a Herculean physique tend to be less agile than somebody that simply has very atheltic physique. I haven't seen to many nimble guys in ESPN world's strongest man competition's. A herculean physique for Minotaurs is the rule not the exception. Racially they pride themselves on brute strength more than anything else. So I think a dexterity penalty is fitting for Minotaurs.
#11 lenin97 Jun 18, 2003 11:41:22	Hi everyone! My Minotaur sense was tingling! They were telling me a new minotaur topic just popped up. Anyway here is a good +1/+2 ECL version a bunch of us came up with on the old boards. Abilities +4 Strength, +2 Constitution, -2 Wisdom, -2 Charisma Languages Automatic: Minotaur and Common. Bonus: Ogre, Saifhum, Other Regional Languages Racial Traits Low-light vision: Minotaurs come from ogre stock, and inherited some of their ancestors’ enhanced vision. Superior Constitution: Because of their above-average built, Minotaurs get a +2 bonus to Fortitude Saving Throws and the toughness feat at 1st level Natural Armor: Minotaurs have thick hide, granting them a +3 natural armor. However fighters disdain armor, very rarely wear protection beyond leather and almost never use shields. Natural Seafarers: Intuit Direction and Profession (Either Sailor or Navigator) are class skills skills. Minotaurs are also well known for their natural direction sense and therefore get a+ 2 Racial modifier to Intuit Direction. Impressive Presence: Minotaurs’ massive figures and fiery tempers help them to earn respect, as well as influence others: Minotaurs have a + 2 bonus on Intimidate checks plus they get to use their Str mod. for the all Intimidation checks instead of Chr. Augmented Perception: Their keen intincts give the minotaur more perceptive senses, and they consequently get a +2 racial bonus on Listen and Spot checks. Natural Weapons: A Minotaur is never defenseless, and may use his horns and fists with deadly efficiency. A Minotaur may charge (as in the Player’s Handbook) with his horns for 2d8 damage plus strenght bonus, in which case he loses any dexterity bonus to AC. As a full attack action, he may attack with his horns for (1d8 plus strenght bonus) damage, and with his fists at a –5 to hit for (1d6 + half strenght bonus) points of subdual damage each, without provoking an attack of opportunity. However, most minotaurs consider themselves civilized and will rarely resort to these attacks, unless they don't have other weapons or are particularly enraged. Large Creature (1): Because of their size, Minotaurs suffer a –1 penalty to attack rolls, -1 penalty to Armor Class, and –4 size penalty to Hide checks. Large Creature (2): As a Large creature Minotaurs may use a bastard sword one-handed with a martial weapon proficiency, and may take any two-handed weapon one-handed with an exotic weapon proficiency (one for each weapon). However, since they are not Large (Tall) creatures, their reach is still 5’ like medium-size creatures. If they manage to find size Huge weapons, they may use them two-handed with an exotic weapon proficiency, and they will then have a 10’ reach. Base Speed: 30 feet Favored Class: Fighter ECL +2?
#12 jrblasingame Jun 18, 2003 12:35:46	I thought that was what the -1 to their armor class was for against smaller oppenents (or is the -1 armor class penalty for both bigger and smaller class creatures?). This of course being a game mechanic (not a novel one). I don't think they deserve a negative to dex. As I said, they have never gotten one in 1st or 2nd ed. why all of a sudden they get one now? But I also believe that smaller creatures have a better chance of hitting bigger (larger size category) creatures. So I believe that is enough of a penalty without having to resort to a negative Dex penalty (just MHO). J.Blasingame
#13 lenin97 Jun 18, 2003 12:46:14	Sorry, the -2 Dex was a typo. The -1 AC and attack penalty are standard for Large creatures. They are just the opposite for small PC races, like gnomes and kender.
#14 zombiegleemax Jun 18, 2003 13:05:15	Originally posted by STWRSFAN I agree. The Average Minotaur stands 7 feet and 350 pounds with some reaching 8.5+ and 500 pounds+. That kind of weight makes for a massive physique even given the greater height. If you look at Humans, people with a Herculean physique tend to be less agile than somebody that simply has very atheltic physique. I haven't seen to many nimble guys in ESPN world's strongest man competition's. A herculean physique for Minotaurs is the rule not the exception. Racially they pride themselves on brute strength more than anything else. So I think a dexterity penalty is fitting for Minotaurs. Overall size should not be considered a factor in measuring DEX penalties but Relative Size compared to someone of their own race. To be more clear... an average Minotaur is likely to be no more or no less dexterious than an average human, because porportions are the same. Like a human who could weigh 300 pounds and be 6 feet tall (i.e. body-builder) a dexerity penalty should apply to a Minotaur that is 8.5 feet tall and 500 pounds, a large 'Herculean' example of their race... but that would be the exception here not the norm. The only characteristic of a Minotaur that someone could convince me on to perhaps give a DEX penalty on would be hooves. A less stable base for that massive build should incur a penalty. -Gilles
#15 lenin97 Jun 18, 2003 13:07:05	Originally posted by Gilles Prefontaine The only characteristic of a Minotaur that someone could convince me on to perhaps give a DEX penalty on would be hooves. A less stable base for that massive build should incur a penalty. I beileve DL minotaurs have feet!
#16 zombiegleemax Jun 18, 2003 13:22:56	That's something I've always wondered. In a couple of novels minotaurs had feet and in others I've read they've had hooves. So doesn't anyone know what the real story is? I prefer the hoove idea so that's what I imagine unless the story I happen to be reading says otherwise. I believe in Kaz, The Minotaur and the Legend of Huma, Kaz had feet, but in Land of the Minotaurs the minotaurs had hooves. I seem to remember someone kicking out with hoof.
#17 shugi Jun 18, 2003 14:49:59	Originally posted by JRBlasingame Also, there should not be a minus to Dex. In keeping with the way Minatours have been potraid in novels and more important the actual gaming books, they have never had a minus to Dex. I attibute this to the fact that they are continually eliminating the weaker of their species through Arena combat. A slow, clumsy warrior is a dead warrior. J.Blasingame Insert IMHO disclaimer here. Minotaurs have never had a Dex penalty, but that doesn't mean it's unreasonable to give them one. Gnomes never had a bonus to Con before 3E, and I'd strongly argue against giving DL half-elves a Dex bonus with no penalty. If minotaurs continually eliminate the weaker members, why doesn't every minotaur have 22's for their physical stats? It's a variety of factors - and gladiators wouldn't automatically have a high Str, Dex, and Con even if they'd be best suited for it.
#18 lenin97 Jun 18, 2003 15:43:07	Let's not forget that not every minotaur has to be a raging pit fighter to survive in minotaur society. Just like any other race there are weaker members! Actually I beleive that a negative Dex modifier might not be inapproriate as everyone seems to think. Lets not forget the Dex is more than just ranged combat. I mean as an example I could see a minotaur having a more difficult running through an obstacle course than Joe Human, because the minotaur is larger, more well muscled (and therefore less flexible than a human), and maybe even slower in his basic reaction time.
#19 lugnut71 Jun 18, 2003 16:32:35	Actually that has to do more with size a obstacle course designed for a human would be hard for a minotaur. Look at elephants in most cases an elephant is for more agile then a human. They have better balance now it is far larger then a human. Basically I look at kyrnnish minotaurs the same way. For their size they are just as agile as a human. Of course they are going to be hurting in a small area.
#20 zombiegleemax Jun 19, 2003 1:32:56	Until the DLCS hits the shelves, we use the Minotaur class given as an example on page 27-28 of the Savage Species book, and we use the Half-Ogre new race from page 217-218 of Savage Species. We feel they work quite well and they only need minor adjustments like Languages, Alignment etc. But that is to be expected since DL is slightly different from standard D&D. Infact, our current party consists of: Laika Evergood; Female Kendar Paladin. Tygore Plainstrider; Male Minotaur Barbarian. Korr of Kern; Male Half-Ogre Barbarian. Fiona Niddle; Female Gnome Fighter. Arden; Male human Monk. So we run some uncommon characters.
#21 lenin97 Jun 19, 2003 7:43:44	Originally posted by lugnut71 Actually that has to do more with size a obstacle course designed for a human would be hard for a minotaur. Look at elephants in most cases an elephant is for more agile then a human. They have better balance now it is far larger then a human. Basically I look at kyrnnish minotaurs the same way. For their size they are just as agile as a human. Of course they are going to be hurting in a small area. Well this is just proving my point becuase the idea of stats are the physical differences of any race compare to the baseline human (who has no stat adjustments). Following your example, just because a minotaur is 150% bigger than a human and is a 150% stronger than the minotaur is "For their size they are just as strong as a human". So following that reasoning, then the minotaur doesn't deserve a strength bonus eather. The obstacle course was just an example, I wasn't talking about size factors just as an example of a dexterity test. Also I want to point out that the more negative physical adjustments a race has the more numerically balanced they will be (meaning a lower ECL) I'm not trying to start a flame war, I'm just saying that Minotaurs having a DEX penalty isn't that much of a stretch. I want to reiterate that the beauties of the 3rd edition is a new look at the D&D worlds.
#22 jrblasingame Jun 19, 2003 8:47:37	Originally posted by Lenin97 Let's not forget that not every minotaur has to be a raging pit fighter to survive in minotaur society. Just like any other race there are weaker members! Actually I beleive that a negative Dex modifier might not be inapproriate as everyone seems to think. Lets not forget the Dex is more than just ranged combat. I mean as an example I could see a minotaur having a more difficult running through an obstacle course than Joe Human, because the minotaur is larger, more well muscled (and therefore less flexible than a human), and maybe even slower in his basic reaction time. Well I could see a minatour having problems in an obstacle course if it was set up for a human. But even this doesn't prove (or disprove) the minatours recieving a Dex penalty. Just because something is bigger, doesn't mean it should automatically get a penalty. I believe the game mechanics as they are set up now make it unnecassery (sp) for a Dex penalty. The -1 to armor class (vs. smaller opponents) and -1 to hit smaller creatures (to me) is already taking into account the fact the minatour is bigger and somewhat more lumbersome. A Dex penalty is definately not needed (IMHO). J.Blasingame
#23 zombiegleemax Jun 19, 2003 9:08:25	I believe we are too quick to add penalties on things like INT and WIS because of the fact that we want them to act like humans in our campaigns. Truth is, they aren't human and that shouldn't make them stupider, less wise or clumsy but simply in order to balance it properly add the appropriate stipulations: - Easiest is perhaps look at an ECL beyond +1, maybe +3 to balance them out better with other races. - Make it a rule that there cannot be more than 1 character who is a minotaur unless it is a campaign for minotaurs and adjust the campaign accordingly. - ... There's lot of ways to adjust them with home-fries rules. Just have to think it through to balance things. -Gilles
#24 lenin97 Jun 19, 2003 12:09:45	Another often forgotten (at least in my experience) aspect of life as a minotaur adventuring outside of his homeland and the prejudices of the folks a minotaur will meet in his adventures. Even though this prejudice is purely of a role playing nature, I always thought it was a fair trade off for the better stats that a minotaur had in AD&D. Now that probably won't figure into the new ECL but anyway. My favorite PC character of all time was a DL minotaur I played a long time ago. During our journeys, anytime the group was coming upon a "civiliazed" area, my character was shackled or caged and displayed (carnival style) as an oddity. The kender in the group used to intice the crowd to throw garbage at me. Never once did I meet an NPC that hadn't throw a rotten tomato or cabbage at me earlier in the day.
#25 lugnut71 Jun 19, 2003 13:02:28	Incorrect because a minotaur is stronger then a human and just as agile as a human the point I was trying to make that if you put him in a human sized world he would seem less dextrous because things are not made for his size. D&D does not figure this in though. I probably said it in a long complicated way. I also do not think that minotaurs should get a penality to wisdom or intelligence. They are not stupid brutes in Dragonlance and are nothing like the MM minotaurs. I don't want a super race either I just want one that portrays the race as it is shown in the books. Which is why a neg. Cha would be the most likley to do. It represents their incredible arrogance even among each other they are very arrogant.
#26 shugi Jun 19, 2003 20:09:16	Obviously, it's a scenario of "to each their own". After consideration, I've avoided making minotaurs Large in my game, but there's a feat (aka Jotunbrud from Unapproachable East) that minotaurs can take. Since they're not Large IMC, I consider the Dex penalty to be adequate. I probably wouldn't do both. I also messed up a minotaur stat or two from my earlier post - they've been edited.
#27 lenin97 Jun 20, 2003 7:57:31	Eidolon's right, there is really no use "fighting" about it now because it won't be to long before we'll have the book in hand and then we can argue about wether or not the author's interpretation of minotaurs is correct! :D Bow before Dragonlance's Mightiest Race!
#28 zombiegleemax Jul 14, 2003 14:53:35	Originally posted by Lenin97 Following your example, just because a minotaur is 150% bigger than a human and is a 150% stronger than the minotaur is "For their size they are just as strong as a human". So following that reasoning, then the minotaur doesn't deserve a strength bonus eather. Actually, if you want to go by that rout, doesn't the move from size medium to size large give a +4 str bonus? So, seems they deserve no dex penalty and +4 STR. -Robert
#29 lenin97 Jul 14, 2003 14:57:04	Robert, FYI, the stats for the minotaurs of DL have been posted in a preveiw located on the DL portion of the Wizard's site. Take a look for yourself.
#30 zombiegleemax Jul 14, 2003 23:36:55	Yup, noticed that the other day. I was just bored on the board and wanted to point out a errancy in the logic used. I personally disagree with Mino's being size M critters. All the other Mino's in D&D just laugh at them.... -Robert
#31 zombiegleemax Jul 14, 2003 23:45:37	Originally posted by Robert N. Yup, noticed that the other day. I was just bored on the board and wanted to point out a errancy in the logic used. I personally disagree with Mino's being size M critters. All the other Mino's in D&D just laugh at them.... -Robert Yeah... those other mino's can laugh from inside their mazes and labyrinths while Krynn's minotaurs take over entire countries ;) Christopher
#32 lenin97 Jul 15, 2003 7:30:25	Well, I know I'm willing to work around the limitations of size and miscellanous penalties just so I can play one of Sargas' chosen at 1st lvl. :D
#33 brimstone Jul 15, 2003 9:05:12	Krynnish Minotaurs have always only been between 6.5 and 7.5 feet tall. Now granted...that's tall...but I don't think that constitutes a Large creature. Of course...I have certain issues with Size in 3e anyway... LOL!