It was released, its now out of print, but is on the WotC website
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/downloads
There is a continent (that has been detailed in the Time of the Dragon boxed set) Taladas on the very opposite side of the world. In fact, if you were to punch a hole straight down from Istar...it would most likely come out exactly in the center of Taladas. Which puts Taladas in the Northeast "Hemisphere" because Ansalon is in the Southwest "Hemisphere."
Then there is Otherlands to the...uh...Northeast?...of Ansalon...between the two giant continents.... Well...I say giant...but it's highly likely that DLCS will return Ansalon to it's original size of 1300 miles across, unfortunately, as opposed to the 3600 miles that SAGA made it. Anyway...if you go by DLA that means there is enough room on Krynn to fit 19 more Ansalons. That's alot of ocean.
So...there's Otherlands equitorial area, Taladas in the Northeast, Ansalon in the Southwest, a rumored continent of Dragons in the Southeast, the Nexus is working on a continent called Adlatum (did I spell that right?) which I can only assume is in the Northwest...but not necessarily. There are many many Minotaur island colonies to the east of Ansalon in the Courian Ocean. Not to mention the land of the Kazelati Minotaurs...which could be a continent...could just be an island, who knows.
So...the lands are out there...they haven't really been expanded on as most of us hoped or would like. But...if you know they are there...you can develope your own ideas. Like I said...there's plenty of ocean out there.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Then there is Otherlands to the...uh...Northeast?...of Ansalon...between the two giant continents.... Well...I say giant...but it's highly likely that DLCS will return Ansalon to it's original size of 1300 miles across, unfortunately, as opposed to the 3600 miles that SAGA made it.
Yeah.
But in my game Ansalon will always be 3600 miles across.
Ansalon was not meant to be a huge continent like Faerun...that's how the Heroes of the Lance were able to pretty much walk where they needed to go. Yeah, it took awhile, but it would have taken at least 3 times longer if the continent really was that large. There was never a satisfactory answer as to why it was made bigger for the Fifth Age, except that "Bigger=Better" in some people's minds. And before you ask, we see Bill Connors and Jim Ward, who were behind the Fifth Age/SAGA development team, fairly regularly, so we do have just as much of an inside lead on the Fifth Age development as we have on the rest of Dragonlance ;)
Believe it or not, there was a reason that Ansalon was only meant to be the size of Europe and NOT the size of North America. So, that's what we stuck with
In most of the novels, traveling distance occurs "between frames" so we're sticking with the "majority" in this instance. ;)Christopher
- NOT fond of 3600 miles Ansalon :D
Originally posted by Stormprince
Ansalon is not 3600 miles across, it was NEVER meant to be that far across, nor is it that large ANYWHERE except in the SAGA Boxed set.
Nananananah, I'm not listening...
Originally posted by Stormprince
Ansalon is not 3600 miles across, it was NEVER meant to be that far across, nor is it that large ANYWHERE except in the SAGA Boxed set.
Chris, I'm curious on your interpretation of something, if I may.
Dragonlance Adventures mentions somewhere that Krynn has room for approximately 13-15 continents the size of Ansalon (going by the 1,200 mile diameter of the time).
Do you think that this is still true?
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Chris, I'm curious on your interpretation of something, if I may.
Dragonlance Adventures mentions somewhere that Krynn has room for approximately 13-15 continents the size of Ansalon (going by the 1,200 mile diameter of the time).
Do you think that this is still true?
Yeah, I think that there are plenty of other "continents" on Krynn...some larger, some smaller than Ansalon. The exact number is something up to individual interpretation, and probably not something that you can see any of "us" at Sovereign Press set into stone as our primary focus is upon Ansalon, and upon Taladas at a later date...that's more than enough for us now ;)
Christopher
Originally posted by Stormprince
Yeah, I think that there are plenty of other "continents" on Krynn...some larger, some smaller than Ansalon. The exact number is something up to individual interpretation, and probably not something that you can see any of "us" at Sovereign Press set into stone as our primary focus is upon Ansalon, and upon Taladas at a later date...that's more than enough for us now ;)
Christopher
Cool, thanks for the answer, Chris!
Originally posted by Kaithan Kanathar
Why did they change the size of the continent in the first place? It seems like a bad idea in the extreme to me. What, is the continent made out of a giant sponge or something? Wouldn't people notice that the continent suddenly got bigger?
I think the idea was just to redefine the dimensions of Ansalon, to give more room for adventure. Not sure, though.
Of course, that makes it even more imperative to shrink the desolation realms.
Also, it means that we have to put a stop to the endless stream of Knights of Nereka. I mean, it seems that book authors think that is an unlimited supply of bodies to fill that black armour. I keep hearing of thousands and thousands being slaughtered. In Night of Blood for example, the ambush of hundreds of Dark Knights by the Ogres should now be a major disaster for them.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Nananananah, I'm not listening...
*laughs!*
Fine, don't listen
For you, then, just mentally multiple all distances and travel times by 3 and you'll be okay ;)
Christopher
I am just wondering...
Originally posted by Gerrin
I have begun to draw and construct another continent in Ansalon. I was wondering if there would be interest if I was to post it somewhere or if anyone would be interested in helping me design this. I figure most people will reject this idea but maybe a few of us would like to explore a little more of the world.
I am just wondering...
Go for it! The DL sites (www.dragonlance.com and www.dl3e.com) accept fan submissions, and there are existing variants, like the DLOA by Jeremy Forbing and the upcoming Adlatum by various members of the Whitestone Council.
I look forward to seeing it!
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Yeah.
But in my game Ansalon will always be 3600 miles across.
Yep. Same here.
It doesn't hurt anything for it to be larger, and it makes more sense to me.
For something as diverse as Ansalon...and full of so many nations that are isolationalists...1200 miles seems way too small.
But, that's just me. (and Richard, too, I guess :D)
p.s. Does this mean that the Tower of Wayreth can only "travel" ~80 miles from it's original building site...or is it going to be kept at the 250 miles mentioned in [i]TLT[i]?
And you're telling me that a continent the size of Europe is too small for the number of cultures that were historically there? Tell you what...backpack across Europe and tell me that it's too small an area to contain all that it does
I've lived in England and Italy, visited Greece, Germany, France, etc...and lemme tell you, there's a LOT there. Plus, we're also talking about total land mass here. Ansalon is almost as long north to south as it is east to west, give our take an island or two. Heck, look at the United Kingdom's history and changes alone! O.O*grins crookedly* Not that I'm going to change your mind, or you change mine, but 'least the math is easy....just multiply all the distances by 3 :D
Christopher
Originally posted by Stormprince
And you're telling me that a continent the size of Europe is too small for the number of cultures that were historically there?
I think what we are all worried about is variety. If you can promise us as many different cultures in Ansalon as there is in Europe then all of us will be very, very pleased. The simple fact is that Dragonlance has been very homogenized in terms of plot. It seems that every human nation either has knights of Solamnia or Knights of Neraka (Dragonarmies) controlling it and nothing else.
That's why I also want the dragon overlord desolations shrunk. Variety is all that dragonlance needs to make it the best setting on the market. After all, both Greyhawk and FR suffer from the fact that their cultures are just boring earth-history rewrites with the serial numbers filed off.
Originally posted by Stormprince
And you're telling me that a continent the size of Europe is too small for the number of cultures that were historically there?
Look...in my mind, Ansalon is too small. Australia is just not big enough, to me, to hold all that Ansalon holds. No need to get vicious about it. :D
I don't know about anyone else, but I read Dragonlance novels and play Dragonlance games for the adventure involved. I like taking characters, fleshing them out, and putting them in situations that will make them grow - for better or worse. I like epic plotlines. I like knights, wizards, dragons, and befuddled old mages who carry on about "21 gun salutes", whatever those are. ;)
To me, the size of the continent is unimportant. What is important is the development of the continent itself. I'm interested in the minotaur foothold on Ansalon, as well as the rebuilding of the Citadel of Light and its evolution with the return of the gods. I'm interested in the Towers of High Sorcery. I'm curious to know what will take the place of the Academy of Sorcery, if anything.
And the list goes on...
Really, it doesn't matter if Ansalon is 1,200 miles across or 3,600 miles. What matters is that there are plenty of adventures, and places to have those adventures, within the borders of Ansalon.
Originally posted by ferratus
It seems that every human nation either has knights of Solamnia or Knights of Nereka (Dragonarmies) controlling it and nothing else.
Quick nitpick - You've been throwing an E into Neraka instead of an A. It's named after a place in Indonesia, you know!
Carry on,
Cam
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Really, it doesn't matter if Ansalon is 1,200 miles across or 3,600 miles. What matters is that there are plenty of adventures, and places to have those adventures, within the borders of Ansalon.
Variety is the spice of life, but it is the bread and butter of a campaign setting. Whether it is 1,200 miles across or 3,600 miles across does matter for the type of campaign setting you have, and personally I would prefer a bunch of petty states to huge massive empires.
It would mean that we wouldn't have tropical jungles, but I think we can all live with a mediterranian climate for the north. Other than that, we could pretty much the same plots you could do for a 3,600 mile continent in a 1,200 mile one. I mean, you don't need two kingdoms the size of China going to war when two kingdoms the size of England and France would do just as well. It also makes the Empire of Ergoth much more reasonable at its height. I could see an empire stretching from Daltigoth to Sanction if the continent is a thousand miles across.
But to hold European style-states, you do have to shrink the desolated realms. You might be able to get away with putting 40 or so nations in a 3600 mile map complete with the desolated realms, but you would definately need to shrink them to get that many on a 1,200 mile map.
[edit Neraka] ;)
Originally posted by Brimstone
Look...in my mind, Ansalon is too small. Australia is just not big enough, to me, to hold all that Ansalon holds. No need to get vicious about it. :D
But he's absolutely right. Western civilization took place almost entirely within a much smaller area for over a hundred years. Ansalon has a great deal of variety already displayed on the map, it's just that the central storyline has only explored a fraction of it. It's like a World War II stroyline that concentrates on France and Germany whilst leaving out most of the other nations - they're given the foremost attention but they're not the be-all and end-all.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Really, it doesn't matter if Ansalon is 1,200 miles across or 3,600 miles. What matters is that there are plenty of adventures, and places to have those adventures, within the borders of Ansalon.
Actually it does matter but... remember my "pole to equator" distance directly relating to planet's mass?
Tobin probably know's where I'm getting.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Actually it does matter but... remember my "pole to equator" distance directly relating to planet's mass?
Tobin probably know's where I'm getting.
Yep, that's easily solved though if someone bothered to think about it. Simply add more ocean between Taladas and Ansalon. That would also explain why there is little contact between the two places (and why only the minotaurs and dragons would know about it).
Originally posted by ferratus
Yep, that's easily solved though if someone bothered to think about it. Simply add more ocean between Taladas and Ansalon. That would also explain why there is little contact between the two places (and why only the minotaurs and dragons would know about it).
Oh, don't worry, somebody did think about it.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
But he's absolutely right. Western civilization took place almost entirely within a much smaller area for over a hundred years. Ansalon has a great deal of variety already displayed on the map, it's just that the central storyline has only explored a fraction of it. It's like a World War II stroyline that concentrates on France and Germany whilst leaving out most of the other nations - they're given the foremost attention but they're not the be-all and end-all.
I didn't say he was wrong.
Another problem I have (this more so than the diversity of life)is you have vast desert, three...three major mountain ranges, vast plains, tundra, tropical, mediteranian, and polar all within 1,000 miles of each other. Granted...alot of the weather problems are caused by the Maelstrom most likely...and the Dragon Overlords after the Maelstrom is stilled...but the rest of it existed pre-cataclysm.
It's just too much in too small an area for me. I realize that I'm probably in the minority here but there's nothing that says I can't keep the 5th Age map size.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Actually it does matter but... remember my "pole to equator" distance directly relating to planet's mass?
Tobin probably know's where I'm getting.
Yeah...if you follow the Atlas of the Dragonlance Saga...then Krynn is a tiny tiny planet. Almost as small as the Moon...but not quite.
I just can't buy that Ansalon is that small and is that geologically and meteorologically diverse. And if it is just south of the equator...and attached to the polar ice cap...then...well...the size of the planet really starts getting screwy. heh heh
Originally posted by Brimstone
I didn't say he was wrong.
Another problem I have (this more so than the diversity of life)is you have vast desert, three...three major mountain ranges, vast plains, tundra, tropical, mediteranian, and polar all within 1,000 miles of each other. Granted...alot of the weather problems are caused by the Maelstrom most likely...and the Dragon Overlords after the Maelstrom is stilled...but the rest of it existed pre-cataclysm.
I assume you're talking about the Vingaard, the Khalkists, and the Kharolis mountains right?
Khalkists=Alps
Kharolis=Carpathian
Vingaard=Ural Mountains
Europe has tundra, plains, mediterranian and polar within a thousand miles. Ansalon of course, as I said, can't have tropical forests but that is a 5th Age invention. The plains of dust, in a few centuries from now, will have reverted to tundra. The Maelstrom had basically pulled the moisture away from the center of the continent, making it a dry desert like the Gobi.
But yeah, the map has to be redone in terms of what actually exists there, otherwise it will be simply a matter of sloppiness. I know from a year or two ago though that Jaimie talked about the necessity of looking at the weather patterns and climatology of Krynn, so it should be worked out appropriately.
But if Ansalon is the east to west length of Europe that may be the length of from Lisbon, Portugal to somewhere between the Ukrainian Dnipro River to the border with Russia.
From north to south I think it would be from the Rock Of Gibraltar to the northern most point of Norway. I think that work very well.
If you go with plate techtonics, Ansalon's really a mess...it was so even before the Cataclysm struck. The east and the west are gradually moving towards one another, creating the mountainous peaks of the Khalkist Mountains. The activity is very similar to what's happening to India, creating the Himalayans. As one tectonic plate pushes down beneath the other, it creates upheaval (earthquakes and volcanoes, such as the Lords of Doom and the other volcanoes scattered throughout the mountain range). Of course, the giant mountain thrown down by the gods did very little to help any of that.
As for the creation of the Desolation...first of all, it's not completely mountainous. Yes, it is a very rugged landscape...created by Malystryx's magic, which caused magma plumes that pierced the mantle, creating volcano "islands," such as those that created Hawaii.
The Maelstrom and Cataclysm caused a global shift, which permanetly affected the climatic zones. And then, of course, there is the effect of the three moons, then their disappearance and the different sun in a different universe...
Add in the whims, the power of the gods, other magical disasters that occured on a smaller scale than that of the Cataclysm, but were still rather devastating to the landscape, and you end up with one mixed up landscape. Then, of course, there were the Dragon Overlords, who used the elemental connections of the native Krynn dragons to wreck their own havok on the environment.
Granted, I could write an term paper or three on Krynn's climate and geological structure, but don't got the time ;) Other projects to work on plus gotta get to bed early tonight....leave for Origins tomorrow! :D
Christopher
If you go to Dragons of Winter Night, The Funeral = last chapter, page 908 of annotated chronicles, Alhana feels the death of Sturm. "One evening alhana walked upon the battlements of the Tower of the Stars. It was afternoon in Solamnia then, and --on another tower-- Sturm Brightblade faced a sky-blue dragon and a Dragon Highlord. "
That one passage is really the cause. Karen fonstad of the Atlas of the Dl Saga, assumes that if Silvanesti was in the evening, and Solamnia was in the afternoon, the size of Krynn could be determined. However if you look at her assumptions, she assumed a 4 hour difference in longitude. In doing so, the size of Krynn has to be small.
The problem is really determining the meaning of "evening" and "afternoon."
Evening could mean anying from 6 to 9 o'clock. Afternoon could mean anything from 12:01 PM to 5 o'clock. Personally, i would like to assume that this is one of the instances where we have an inconsistenty from Tracy and Margaret for the sake of a darn good story, and take everything we read with a grain of salt.
One of the things that make me say Ansalon should be bigger is the closeness of the nations and species. Granted, people in Europe did evolve together in its relatively limited geographical space, but then it's still humans we are talking about.
A medieval-fantastic world like Krynn has many species that are inherently evil or good, and just cannot tolerate beings of the opposite alignment living at all, much less near them! It seems to me there would be constant wars if these people were so close to each other. There has to be neutral, "buffer" zones which are not 'owned' by any group, but where small detachments of each can patrol ( and, in passing, adventurers can explore
). Somehow I don't think a 1200 miles Ansalon would contains a lot of "buffer" space. I don't know if you 've been to Europe lately, but there are lots of people there, and very few virgin places, untouched by men. I don't see how draconians, Solamnics, Lemish and hobgoblins (plus all those random encounter you're always rolling to liven up things) could live so close to each other, unless there was constant warfare. Unless, of course, you reduce the number of each species so that there are very few settlements...
Maybe there lies the answer: small countries, few inhabitants??
Originally posted by ferratus
I assume you're talking about the Vingaard, the Khalkists, and the Kharolis mountains right?
Khalkists=Alps
Kharolis=Carpathian
Vingaard=Ural Mountains
Well...the Alps and the Carpathian are really just different sections of the same range (along with the Appenine and the Pyrenees. So really you only have two true seperate mountain ranges there. The Alpine Ranges, and the Ural Mountains. Krynn has three very distinct...very seperate ranges. And as Chris says...the plate techtonics have to be a mess.
You guys aren't going to convince me otherwise. Ansalon is just too small to make sense to me. And the more I look at topographic and climate maps of Europe or Australia...the more convinced I am that Ansalon is too small.
Sorry. It's really not that big a deal. I'll just use an Ansalon that's 3 times bigger than the rest of you. :D
Originally posted by Bredangar
I don't see how draconians, Solamnics, Lemish and hobgoblins (plus all those random encounter you're always rolling to liven up things) could live so close to each other, unless there was constant warfare. Unless, of course, you reduce the number of each species so that there are very few settlements...
Maybe there lies the answer: small countries, few inhabitants??
Well, warfare is a constant in Krynn. There are always battles and skirmishes going on.
As for small countries and few inhabitants, that's the way I've always seen it. After all, only Palanthas really seems to be a "Metropolis". Sanction, Flotsam, or Gwynneth (all important cities) could probably be just as plausible as large or small cities.
Given as well the tendency for continent-wide massive kill-offs that have occured over the last century, one should expect the population to be thinned a little, and empty towns and cities around for lots and lots of dungeon crawling. I also see it as a way to give the setting grit. Imagine if the treasure from the monster-infested ruins is actually the ability to salvage the marble from it!
Originally posted by Brimstone
Well...the Alps and the Carpathian are really just different sections of the same range (along with the Appenine and the Pyrenees. So really you only have two true seperate mountain ranges there. The Alpine Ranges, and the Ural Mountains. Krynn has three very distinct...very seperate ranges. And as Chris says...the plate techtonics have to be a mess.
Okay, then... the mountain range in Scandinavia then. ;) If the Pyranees is part of the same range as the Alps, then the mountains by the Woods of Larue are part of the Khalkists and the Sentinel Mountains are part of the Kharolis mountains.
You guys aren't going to convince me otherwise. Ansalon is just too small to make sense to me. And the more I look at topographic and climate maps of Europe or Australia...the more convinced I am that Ansalon is too small.
If Ansalon still has tropical forests then you are right, if it does not, you are wrong. Unless the Maelstrom comes back (pulling Equatorial weather from the North), then it can have tropical forests and you'd still be wrong. Of course, if the Maelstrom doesn't come back, it would be better to forget that there was ever tropical forests there to begin with.
Frankly, if Ansalon is larger, then it should have more geographical features than it does.
Originally posted by Granakrs
Well, to cause a bit more controversy to the size debate, all this really started with Chronicles and the enterpretations of it.
Really? At GenCon last year I went to Tracy's "Creating Fantasy Worlds" seminar (or something to that affect) and he started off by talking about DragonLance and how they had designed Anslaon to be as large as Middle Earth. Because that seemed large enough. But when they finally mapped it to a world the size of earth they were surprised at how small it was. So I didn't think the size came from the novels...
Originally posted by ferratus
Okay, then... the mountain range in Scandinavia then. ;) If the Pyranees is part of the same range as the Alps, then the mountains by the Woods of Larue are part of the Khalkists and the Sentinel Mountains are part of the Kharolis mountains.
I was hoping you wouldn't point those out.
However...there's still a difference.
The Alpine Ranges, Ural Mts., and the Scandanavian Range all essentially outline the Europe Techtonic plate.
Now...Ansalon...pre-Cataclysm essentially had 4 seperate mountain ranges.
The ones one the furthest eastern shore...in the Minotaur lands. Then just west of the Istarian realm...the range with Thoradin and the Lords of Doom. Then even further west you have the mountain range encompassing Palanthas...which is essentailly the same range as the range that Thorbardin is in...it's basically a line of mountains from Palanthas to Tarsis. Then after one more "valley" you have the final range in the western area of former Ergoth. (sorry I didn't use the names...I don't have a map with readable names on it in fron tof me).
You can't tell me I'm wrong, Terry. You may not agree with what I think, but that doesn't make me wrong and you right. I makes me stretch my imagination too far to imagine four massive mountain ranges in a stretch of land less than 1200 miles from the first one to the last.
Europe's mountains outline the continent...Ansalons basically...well...if it's only 1200 miles...Ansalon is basically one big mountain range...and this is before the Cataclysm...afterwards...well...I guess two ranges got much much bigger.
Anyway...this is getting stupid. We're just going around and around in circles...so this is the last post I'm gonna make on this.
Basically, the core of what I thought we were arguing about was feasibility. It is feasible for a continent the size of Ansalon to have lots of techtonic plates, and Europe and Australia a lot of them, if not as many as Ansalon. I beleive Australia has 3 or 4 itself doesn't it?
For climate, you are completely correct. It is unfeasible to have tropical forests only 1000 miles from the arctic circle. But then, it is also unfeasible to have tropical forests in the range of 3600 miles as well, given that it would put you about the area of Louisiana and Florida. That place, while very warm and swampy is not tropical. Semi-tropical perhaps.
The mediterrainian countries are especially warm for their longitude because the mediterranian sea, tends to store heat and moderate the winter chill (especially since it is fairly placid as compared to the oceans). In contrast in the center of North America, we have almost no bodies of large water, and thus we have more extreme winters and summers. We have the Newsea, but that isn't exactly bordering on africa, and water stores cold as well. So it probably creates a climate a little warmer in Abanasinia and regions thereof than its longitude would suggest, but not by much.
So yeah, feasibility. It all depends on whether Ansalon has tropical forests. Tropical forests are completely unfeasible. A particularly mountainous continent is not.