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Dragon Kings in 3r?

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jun 21, 2003 15:07:19 Howdy,

What would the Dragon Kings look like in 3r?

Freaky as usual, I'd imagine but stat-wise?
#2
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Jun 21, 2003 18:28:28 There's no official dragon & avangion (advanced beings) rules out for d20 (3 Ed.), and there won't be until the core rules are released. However I've been tossing around ideas to basically make the dragon development a 4 prestige-class development line, lasting for up to 30 levels for fully-developed dragons (but can be circumvented/accelerated at the expense of not being "fully developed"
#3
zombiegleemax
Jun 21, 2003 20:13:12 There's a whole slew of discussion about Dragon's and Avangions on the old message boards, if your interested in some decent (and some not so decent) unofficial versions, Tex.
#4
Dragonhelm
Jun 21, 2003 23:04:45 Personally, I think that dragons and avangions make for great epic-level prestige classes. IIRC, each had a 10-stage transformative process, which would fit a 10-level PrC perfectly. We've already got precedent for transformative PrCs, so this fits well.

I'm not sure on specifics, but the character should be able to cast X level of spells and manifest X level of psionics. Add in some hefty prerequisites as well.

One thing I would do, would be to require that the character cast spells without preparation (meaning sorcerer). This would just be a flavor aspect, akin to the idea of dragon disciples tapping into their draconic heritage.

Anyway, those are my general thoughts.
#5
zombiegleemax
Jun 22, 2003 0:46:46 It used to be a very big deal to dual-class... now any sod can do it... 3e/r means that there could be a lot of potential dragons out there....

Edit: Read some of the threads, realized that its really hard to represent these buggers in 3e....
#6
zombiegleemax
Jun 22, 2003 2:48:25 It always seemed to me that the most difficult thing to deceide upon was the not how the dragon or avangion would look, but simply what it took to begin the transformation process. Since the previous requirements were 20 levels of wizard and 20 levels of psionicist, that is a basis that is entirely impossible to translate into 3E. One could easily transcribe the dragons or avangions into 3E, but that's not the real issue.
#7
nytcrawlr
Jun 22, 2003 10:19:11
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Since the previous requirements were 20 levels of wizard and 20 levels of psionicist, that is a basis that is entirely impossible to translate into 3E.

Nah, just make the prerequisites of the PrC equal to that of a 20th lv psion and 20th lv wizard.

Seriously doubt we will go that way though, I know I don't want too.

That one PrC that grants a bonus caster level each level of the PrC attained to both wizard and cleric may be the way to go though, just need to make a psi/cleric and a psi/wizard version.
#8
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Jun 22, 2003 12:09:05 I made it "Ability to cast 9th level Arcane spells" (well, with my arcane magic, it's an ability to gather energy at 9th level as a defiler or preserver) and "Ability to manifest 5th level powers" (which means that both psions or psychic warriors could attempt the transformation). I did the psychic warriors too, because I decided that Borys & Hamanu were psychic warriors - that's why Rajaat gave them spiffy enchanted weapons. The way I adapted the dragons & avangions, it takes a bit longer to go through the process of transformation (more levels) which I use to help explain why the SK's haven't advanced very far - and makes Dregoth really look menacing.
#9
nytcrawlr
Jun 22, 2003 12:12:59 Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing multiple PrCs that advance you through each stage or something, other than just one 10 level PrC.

I like your idea.
#10
zombiegleemax
Jun 22, 2003 16:36:36 The craziest thing is that the Dragon Kings grant spells... which means that they would have to have a few ranks of Deity under 3e rules.

----

I like the psy warrior idea... but the prerequisites have to be high, we shouldn't see dragon king builds on the character optimization forums, dig?
----

Hrmmm... maybe you guys at Burnt World could wait until "Prestige Races" comes out... see what it is all about and then enhance a few of them.
#11
zombiegleemax
Jun 22, 2003 20:15:34 Actually, the Dragon-kings don't need divine ranks to grant spells at all. Its only because of their connection to the elemental planes by way of the elemental vortixes that they possess the ability to grant their followers spells. There's nothing divine about that, nor do the SKs need that particular type of boost of power anyhow. It just doesn't belong on Athas.
#12
nytcrawlr
Jun 22, 2003 21:29:17
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Actually, the Dragon-kings don't need divine ranks to grant spells at all. Its only because of their connection to the elemental planes by way of the elemental vortixes that they possess the ability to grant their followers spells. There's nothing divine about that, nor do the SKs need that particular type of boost of power anyhow. It just doesn't belong on Athas.

The champion of Rajaat template, or the PrC will probably have that ability in it I think, or at least should.
#13
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Jun 22, 2003 22:21:29 I'd say that it would be a template for "Champion of Rajaat" as opposed to a PrC, it just feels more like a template. With my dragons, I had supplemental (loose-knit) rules on how they could accelerate their development, the positive & negative side-effects to it, and of course why a dragon would want to do it (besides Borys, who had a rather specific reason). I was (and probably still will be) granting them the ability to do on-the-fly metamagics with their dragon magic - each of the 4 stages ups the overall power and potency of this ability. I had all the size increases be based off the original height * weight of the creature, and had permitted that *any* humanoid (or giant) who met the other requirements could attempt to become a dragon (of course, a fully-developed dragon from a halfling would be proportionately smaller than one from a human, and a half-giant would be proportionately bigger).

Each stage for dragons required an epic spell to be developed and cast, a rather impressive ritual that also involved a lot of people's deaths. If the dragons shortcut their progress, it results in even more HD oc creatures being killed - IE Kalak wanting to kill off the city of Tyr to accomplish total transformation.

I also have the third stage be the "insanity" stage - where they have to make a will save to resist losing control, and it's pretty steep (starts at DC 100), each time they fail, they wait a randomly-determined number of months before they can check again with the DC being 5 less than the previous (so the second would be 95, third would be 90, fourth would be 85 and so on). The way I worked it out, and how I layed out how borys had been developed, it actually came out near the 100 years for him to get is bearings.

Oh, I also was going to have a modified template for Hamanu - one where anti-dragon items & effects would backfire on the caster, etc. to represent that he was "specially made". Possibly even work in that he can't halt his transformation, just slow the process down (I really liked that idea for him from "Rise and Fall" - maybe not the otehrs, but for him it was cool).

Dregoth I had as fully-developed 3rd stage (no shortcuts) - then applied the Kaisharga template on him, and the irony is that he's already gone through the stage where he would have rampaged, but the other SK's killed him off in fear that completing the process would cause him to repeat what Borys did.
#14
nytcrawlr
Jun 22, 2003 22:29:17 The PrC being the Advanced Being PrC of course, not a Champion of Rajaat PrC, I agree that definately needs to be a template.
#15
nytcrawlr
Jun 22, 2003 22:32:52
Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm
Dregoth I had as fully-developed 3rd stage (no shortcuts) - then applied the Kaisharga template on him, and the irony is that he's already gone through the stage where he would have rampaged, but the other SK's killed him off in fear that completing the process would cause him to repeat what Borys did.

Ah good ol Dregoth, one of my most favorite champions. I cannot wait till we can start workig on Dregoth Ascending again, mwuahahahaha.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jun 21, 2003 15:07:19	Howdy, What would the Dragon Kings look like in 3r? Freaky as usual, I'd imagine but stat-wise?
#2 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jun 21, 2003 18:28:28	There's no official dragon & avangion (advanced beings) rules out for d20 (3 Ed.), and there won't be until the core rules are released. However I've been tossing around ideas to basically make the dragon development a 4 prestige-class development line, lasting for up to 30 levels for fully-developed dragons (but can be circumvented/accelerated at the expense of not being "fully developed"
#3 zombiegleemax Jun 21, 2003 20:13:12	There's a whole slew of discussion about Dragon's and Avangions on the old message boards, if your interested in some decent (and some not so decent) unofficial versions, Tex.
#4 Dragonhelm Jun 21, 2003 23:04:45	Personally, I think that dragons and avangions make for great epic-level prestige classes. IIRC, each had a 10-stage transformative process, which would fit a 10-level PrC perfectly. We've already got precedent for transformative PrCs, so this fits well. I'm not sure on specifics, but the character should be able to cast X level of spells and manifest X level of psionics. Add in some hefty prerequisites as well. One thing I would do, would be to require that the character cast spells without preparation (meaning sorcerer). This would just be a flavor aspect, akin to the idea of dragon disciples tapping into their draconic heritage. Anyway, those are my general thoughts.
#5 zombiegleemax Jun 22, 2003 0:46:46	It used to be a very big deal to dual-class... now any sod can do it... 3e/r means that there could be a lot of potential dragons out there.... Edit: Read some of the threads, realized that its really hard to represent these buggers in 3e....
#6 zombiegleemax Jun 22, 2003 2:48:25	It always seemed to me that the most difficult thing to deceide upon was the not how the dragon or avangion would look, but simply what it took to begin the transformation process. Since the previous requirements were 20 levels of wizard and 20 levels of psionicist, that is a basis that is entirely impossible to translate into 3E. One could easily transcribe the dragons or avangions into 3E, but that's not the real issue.
#7 nytcrawlr Jun 22, 2003 10:19:11	Originally posted by Mach2.5 Since the previous requirements were 20 levels of wizard and 20 levels of psionicist, that is a basis that is entirely impossible to translate into 3E. Nah, just make the prerequisites of the PrC equal to that of a 20th lv psion and 20th lv wizard. Seriously doubt we will go that way though, I know I don't want too. That one PrC that grants a bonus caster level each level of the PrC attained to both wizard and cleric may be the way to go though, just need to make a psi/cleric and a psi/wizard version.
#8 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jun 22, 2003 12:09:05	I made it "Ability to cast 9th level Arcane spells" (well, with my arcane magic, it's an ability to gather energy at 9th level as a defiler or preserver) and "Ability to manifest 5th level powers" (which means that both psions or psychic warriors could attempt the transformation). I did the psychic warriors too, because I decided that Borys & Hamanu were psychic warriors - that's why Rajaat gave them spiffy enchanted weapons. The way I adapted the dragons & avangions, it takes a bit longer to go through the process of transformation (more levels) which I use to help explain why the SK's haven't advanced very far - and makes Dregoth really look menacing.
#9 nytcrawlr Jun 22, 2003 12:12:59	Yeah, I wouldn't mind seeing multiple PrCs that advance you through each stage or something, other than just one 10 level PrC. I like your idea.
#10 zombiegleemax Jun 22, 2003 16:36:36	The craziest thing is that the Dragon Kings grant spells... which means that they would have to have a few ranks of Deity under 3e rules. ---- I like the psy warrior idea... but the prerequisites have to be high, we shouldn't see dragon king builds on the character optimization forums, dig? ---- Hrmmm... maybe you guys at Burnt World could wait until "Prestige Races" comes out... see what it is all about and then enhance a few of them.
#11 zombiegleemax Jun 22, 2003 20:15:34	Actually, the Dragon-kings don't need divine ranks to grant spells at all. Its only because of their connection to the elemental planes by way of the elemental vortixes that they possess the ability to grant their followers spells. There's nothing divine about that, nor do the SKs need that particular type of boost of power anyhow. It just doesn't belong on Athas.
#12 nytcrawlr Jun 22, 2003 21:29:17	Originally posted by Mach2.5 Actually, the Dragon-kings don't need divine ranks to grant spells at all. Its only because of their connection to the elemental planes by way of the elemental vortixes that they possess the ability to grant their followers spells. There's nothing divine about that, nor do the SKs need that particular type of boost of power anyhow. It just doesn't belong on Athas. The champion of Rajaat template, or the PrC will probably have that ability in it I think, or at least should.
#13 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jun 22, 2003 22:21:29	I'd say that it would be a template for "Champion of Rajaat" as opposed to a PrC, it just feels more like a template. With my dragons, I had supplemental (loose-knit) rules on how they could accelerate their development, the positive & negative side-effects to it, and of course why a dragon would want to do it (besides Borys, who had a rather specific reason). I was (and probably still will be) granting them the ability to do on-the-fly metamagics with their dragon magic - each of the 4 stages ups the overall power and potency of this ability. I had all the size increases be based off the original height * weight of the creature, and had permitted that any humanoid (or giant) who met the other requirements could attempt to become a dragon (of course, a fully-developed dragon from a halfling would be proportionately smaller than one from a human, and a half-giant would be proportionately bigger). Each stage for dragons required an epic spell to be developed and cast, a rather impressive ritual that also involved a lot of people's deaths. If the dragons shortcut their progress, it results in even more HD oc creatures being killed - IE Kalak wanting to kill off the city of Tyr to accomplish total transformation. I also have the third stage be the "insanity" stage - where they have to make a will save to resist losing control, and it's pretty steep (starts at DC 100), each time they fail, they wait a randomly-determined number of months before they can check again with the DC being 5 less than the previous (so the second would be 95, third would be 90, fourth would be 85 and so on). The way I worked it out, and how I layed out how borys had been developed, it actually came out near the 100 years for him to get is bearings. Oh, I also was going to have a modified template for Hamanu - one where anti-dragon items & effects would backfire on the caster, etc. to represent that he was "specially made". Possibly even work in that he can't halt his transformation, just slow the process down (I really liked that idea for him from "Rise and Fall" - maybe not the otehrs, but for him it was cool). Dregoth I had as fully-developed 3rd stage (no shortcuts) - then applied the Kaisharga template on him, and the irony is that he's already gone through the stage where he would have rampaged, but the other SK's killed him off in fear that completing the process would cause him to repeat what Borys did.
#14 nytcrawlr Jun 22, 2003 22:29:17	The PrC being the Advanced Being PrC of course, not a Champion of Rajaat PrC, I agree that definately needs to be a template.
#15 nytcrawlr Jun 22, 2003 22:32:52	Originally posted by xlorepdarkhelm Dregoth I had as fully-developed 3rd stage (no shortcuts) - then applied the Kaisharga template on him, and the irony is that he's already gone through the stage where he would have rampaged, but the other SK's killed him off in fear that completing the process would cause him to repeat what Borys did. Ah good ol Dregoth, one of my most favorite champions. I cannot wait till we can start workig on Dregoth Ascending again, mwuahahahaha.