The wizards of High Sorcery were destroyed early 5th age. The Black Sorcerer teaches the "new magic" which we know as sorcery from regular D&D. Then later on (I don't know when) the WoHS were reformed and that fits in with the new magic, how?
I'm trying to figure out how to handle sorceres and wizards in my campaign.
-With the dawn of the 5A WoHS find they can no longer cast spells.
-Mysticism is discovered in the last part of the first decade. Palin becomes Leader of the Order of Good.
-Frustrated by the situation WoHS begin leaving the conclave in droves. Palin decides to look for this new magic with the help of the Master of the Tower. Palin becomes the Master of the Conclave.
-With the help of the Shadow Sorcerer and Master of the Tower, Palin learns the basics of Sorcery. He disbands the WoHS and goes off to create the Academy of Sorcery near Solace.
-War of Souls, gods return, the old magic also returns but Sorcery and Mysticism continue to exist (for now at least).
That's all "world-talk". If you mean D&D Sorcerers and Wizards here's an option (I'm sure other people will tell you the others):
Wizards are WoHS so the class loses its spellcasting powers during the 5A. Sorcerers are 5A Sorcerers so the class doesn't exist before 5A (guy raising hand in the back of the room please sit down and let me finish
).In this scenario both classes are pretty much kept separate. For those who practiced High Sorcery and now want to learn Sorcery multiclassing into Sorcerer would do it. Their level would not be equal to their HD however so you might want to let them "transfer" wizard levels into Sorcerer levels. Of course, when the old magic returns they won't have their wizard levels anymore and won't be able to cast the old magic which is odd especially considering the end of Dragons of a Vanished Moon .
P.S. According to 5A books, Sorcery is not new, in fact it pre-dates High Sorcery so if you use the above scenario, you could let a player/NPC have the Sorcerer class and use Sorcery before the 5A. Keyword here being "could".
That quick timeline made sense with what I've read so far. But there are still holes in the info that I need covered.
- How and when did the old magic of High Sorcery return?
- How are the relations between the Academy of Sorcery (which is the first I hear about from your post.) and the WoHS?
- When the gods return will the clerics rise again, or do the mystics cover that ground now? ( I read somewhere that all the gods lose their power).
- If this is all going on AFTER the War of Souls, are then not entering the 6th age? I mean it gets confusing when you say that WoHS don't exist during 5th age but they do, because so many people assume that you play 5th age AFTER the War of Souls, effectively meaning that it was pretty pointless game-wise that the WoHS were destroyed since they return just in time for you to play.
Here is my writeup of my campaign so you can correct me. (I'm starting the campaign next sunday.)
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It is the 5th age and the year is roughly 50 SC. The entire continent of Ansalon is in a state of chaos and rebirth. It is only a few years since the War of the Souls and the mighty dragonlords were destroyed by Goldmoon's heroes. The death of the green dragon Beryl caused the destruction of Qualinost and it is only now that the elves have begun their return home to Qualinesti and Silvanesti. Small attempts at rebuilding Qualinost is being made while SIlvanesti is also recovering from the previous war.
The Dwarves of Thorbadin are leaving their refuge deep in the Earth only to discover a world shrouded in the silence after the storm.
Though Thakisis is now dead and the gods have returned to Krynn, their powers have been lost. The Mighty Wizards of High Sorcery are slowly rising from the ashes of the war while competing with the new Academy of Sorcery near Solace and the mystics that follow the teachings of Goldmoon.
The Minotaurs are starting to involve themselves more in the affairs of Ansalon rather than stay on their isles, and though the dragon lords are dead and many dragons were killed during the dragon purge and the war of souls, many dragons still remain and they still fight among eachother.
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My continuation story for my campaign:
Somewhere in the mountains in the eastern Ansalon, the remnants of the Knights of Thakisis (Neraka) are hiding. But they are not only hiding themselves but also a terrible secret... The last eggs of Mallystryx the red dragon.
Disturbances are rising among the remaining dragons and a conflict is approaching.
New heroes must rediscover the dragonlances (though I have no info on what happened to them after the WotL) to stop the dragon war from destroying what remains of Ansalon after the War of Souls.
But one of the eggs of Mallystryx contains the reincarnation of Thakisis and by the fire of the new dragon queen's breath, the Knights of Thakisis forge darklances which they use to wage war on Ansalon from their new mountain domain.
Solamnian Knights meet the Knights of Thakisis near the eastern borders of Solamnia while the minotaurs try to reestablish what diplomatic connections they once had with the black dragons.
The elves of Qualinost and the Dwarves of Thorbadin unite and build a massive tower called the Dragonspire by the lake of old Qualinost. The tower serves as a beacon to summon the Silver dragons to Ansalon in order for the forces of Ansalon to defeat the new knights of Thakisis.
Do I have any major gaps and holes in that plotline? Anything terribly wrong?
Originally posted by Gerrin
Sorcery has always been a option. In a supplement book that gave stats for all races in Dragonlance (including minotaurs) sorcery was under the magic section wild magic. Sorcerer were not recommended to be played because the Wizard Conclave had deemed these people outlaws to be killed on sight. I don't know what all this discussion about sorcery and minotaurs and needing new material. We just need to update some of the older material.
There hasn't been an official supplement released to this date that covers sorcerers in Dragonlance, at least in terms of the sorcerer in 3rd edition D&D. You may be thinking of an unofficial or fan supplement, of which there have been several over the past three years since the release of D&D3E.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Archaeon
That quick timeline made sense with what I've read so far. But there are still holes in the info that I need covered.
- How and when did the old magic of High Sorcery return?
At the end of Dragons of a Vanished Moon which makes it around 40 SC.
- How are the relations between the Academy of Sorcery (which is the first I hear about from your post.) and the WoHS?
There aren't any relations. Palin only created the Academy of Sorcery after he disbanded the WoHS, and then right before the War of Souls (WoS), the Academy was destroyed by Beryl (same guy in the back of the room raising his hand again, will you please let me finish?
) which means that it can't interact with the "new" WoHS which is only (eventually) established by the time High Sorcery returns at the end of the WoS.- When the gods return will the clerics rise again, or do the mystics cover that ground now? ( I read somewhere that all the gods lose their power).
Like my mention of the eventual return of the WoHS, all this is speculation that future products will confirm or deny; having said that, the gods return at the end of the WoS so anytime after that clerics can reappear, of course as you mention, mystics already fill the role of healers and support so will they get along? Ah the horror, the horror...
Oh and the gods have their powers, only Paladine had to lose his immortality so that Takhisis could lose hers too (and be killed in the process).
Nevermind that Gilean didn't have to lose his godhood and the "balance" turning into: 6-7-6. .
- If this is all going on AFTER the War of Souls, are then not entering the 6th age? I mean it gets confusing when you say that WoHS don't exist during 5th age but they do, because so many people assume that you play 5th age AFTER the War of Souls, effectively meaning that it was pretty pointless game-wise that the WoHS were destroyed since they return just in time for you to play.
Okay, hmm... the 5th Age encompasses everything from the Summer of Chaos until the present. The War of Souls is "just another war" during the 5A. Yes it brought back the gods (and with them High Sorcery) but there's no need to advance to the 6th Age.Btw, when I mentioned that WoHS don't exist in the 5A I meant "5A but pre-WoS", sorry for the confusion.
Here is my writeup of my campaign so you can correct me. (I'm starting the campaign next sunday.)
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It is the 5th age and the year is roughly 50 SC.
The WoS ends roughly around 40 SC so you might (or not) want to revise that especially if you want to follow the published setting. The books (game material will only be available in July/August) have the present at just after the WoS so it's hard for anyone to predict how Ansalon will look like after 10 years. My comments below assume you want to start the campaign at 50 SC though.
Ack... have to leave the house real quick. I'll continue when I return.
There hasn't been an official supplement released to this date that covers sorcerers in Dragonlance, at least in terms of the sorcerer in 3rd edition D&D. You may be thinking of an unofficial or fan supplement, of which there have been several over the past three years since the release of D&D3E.
Cheers,
Cam
There was an official release in 2nd edition. This was after the war of lance trilogy. This was the original book for adventuring in Dragonlance before the boxed set. Why don't we just adapt the stats of 2nd edition into 3rd edition. We create so many unneeded headaches.
Originally posted by GerrinOriginally posted by Cam Banks
There hasn't been an official supplement released to this date that covers sorcerers in Dragonlance, at least in terms of the sorcerer in 3rd edition D&D. You may be thinking of an unofficial or fan supplement, of which there have been several over the past three years since the release of D&D3E.
Cheers,
Cam
There was an official release in 2nd edition. This was after the war of lance trilogy. This was the original book for adventuring in Dragonlance before the boxed set. Why don't we just adapt the stats of 2nd edition into 3rd edition. We create so many unneeded headaches.
The official release following the original trilogy was Dragonlance Adventures, the hardbound with Tanis holding the Crown of Power over his head, with Lord Soth lurking behind him. That was not a 2nd Edition book, that book harkens back to 1st Edition. The Tales of the Lance Boxed Set was the AD&D 2nd edition attempt at Dragonlance...and many consider it a half-hearted attempt at best.
In the DLA (as Dragonlance Adventures is oft referred to), there are no sorcerers. The "wild" sorcerers that I think you are referring to are the Renegade wizards, which is technically any wizard who did not take the Test of High Sorcery and was casting 3rd and higher level spells (including any wizard from another world).
Before the Fifth Age, many times the terms wizard and sorcerer were synonymous...however, both with the Fifth Age introduction of sorcerers (which we here at the office tend to refer to as Primal Sorcerers) and with the Sorcerer class in 3rd Edition, now they are two very different ways of using arcane magic. Sorcerers tap into the primal energies of Chaos (yes, Chaos!), left behind by his presence in the world, while Wizards use energy that has been "filtered" by the Gods of Magic. ;) Hence why the Towers of High Sorcery were originally formed, because the Gods of Magic feared that those who tapped into the powers of Chaos would unleash cataclysms across the lands (as happened in the First Dragon War). That's why the Towers were tasked with hunting down renegades, which eventually led to the disappearance of most sorcerers (along with the gradual ebb of the Chaos energies in the world). With Chaos's return during the Summer of Chaos, however, those energies once more flooded the world, hence the returns of (Primal) Sorcerers.
Christopher
Originally posted by Archaeon
- How and when did the old magic of High Sorcery return?
After the War of Souls, with the return of the gods, namely Solinari, Lunitari, and Nuitari.
- How are the relations between the Academy of Sorcery (which is the first I hear about from your post.) and the WoHS?
Basically, the conclave was disbanded prior to the formation of the Academy of Sorcery. Palin Majere disbanded the conclave, and he founded the Academy of Sorcery.
The Academy was destroyed when attacked recently by forces of Beryl. However, it was Palin's son, Ulin, who destroyed it with his knowledge of alchemy, in order to keep Beryl's forces from obtaining powerful magic items at the Academy.
Some sorcerers trained at the Tower of Wayreth under the Master of the Tower, and I believe they functioned as allies to the Academy.
The WoHS reform after the destruction of the Academy. How sorcerers and wizards get along remains a mystery.
- When the gods return will the clerics rise again, or do the mystics cover that ground now? ( I read somewhere that all the gods lose their power).
Basically, the world of Krynn was stolen by Takhisis, thereby removing the world from the other gods' influence. Takhisis was weakened by this act, and so she didn't have clerics until Mina.
Mysticism emerged towards the beginning of the 5th age. Now, after the War of Souls, both mysticism and clerical magic co-exist. How clerics and mystics work together (or not) remains to be seen.
- If this is all going on AFTER the War of Souls, are then not entering the 6th age? I mean it gets confusing when you say that WoHS don't exist during 5th age but they do, because so many people assume that you play 5th age AFTER the War of Souls, effectively meaning that it was pretty pointless game-wise that the WoHS were destroyed since they return just in time for you to play.
No, it is still the 5th age. Prior periods in history have divisions such as this, especially the 4th age.
Also, I don't think it is pointless that the WoHS were gone, and have just now come back. You'll find that the WoHS have to re-examine this world in which they live, especially with 4 types of magic now. How will they co-exist with sorcerers? Will the WoHS make any changes?
Anyway, I hope that answers your questions.
Originally posted by Archaeon
It is only a few years since the War of the Souls and the mighty dragonlords were destroyed by Goldmoon's heroes.
You may be mistaking the Heroes of the Heart which were introduced in the 5A and they were influenced/commanded by Goldmoon but the events of the WoS have little to to with those characters. Instead the dragonlords and overlords destroyed during the WoS met their demise at the hands of the elves, mina, etc.
The death of the green dragon Beryl caused the destruction of Qualinost and it is only now that the elves have begun their return home to Qualinesti and Silvanesti. Small attempts at rebuilding Qualinost is being made while SIlvanesti is also recovering from the previous war.
That's assuming that in 10 years these events will take place. (of course, you can always make them work like that and divert (or not as the case may prove to be) from future books.
Though Thakisis is now dead and the gods have returned to Krynn, their powers have been lost. The Mighty Wizards of High Sorcery are slowly rising from the ashes of the war while competing with the new Academy of Sorcery near Solace and the mystics that follow the teachings of Goldmoon.
Correction: the gods (apart from Paladine) retain their powers.
Palin's Academy of Sorcery doesn't exist anymore but nothing stopping you from re-building it on your game and arguably there may be other "academies" throughout Ansalon established by sorcerers following Palin's footsteps. (btw, remember that Palin said he didn't want High Sorcery back at the end of Dragons of a Vanished Moon)
The Minotaurs are starting to involve themselves more in the affairs of Ansalon rather than stay on their isles, and though the dragon lords are dead and many dragons were killed during the dragon purge and the war of souls, many dragons still remain and they still fight among eachother.
You might want to mention the overall events in the recent Night of Blood novel. Also, it remains to be seen whether all dragonlords or overlords were killed.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
My continuation story for my campaign:
Somewhere in the mountains in the eastern Ansalon, the remnants of the Knights of Thakisis (Neraka) are hiding. But they are not only hiding themselves but also a terrible secret... The last eggs of Mallystryx the red dragon.
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! :razz:
New heroes must rediscover the dragonlances (though I have no info on what happened to them after the WotL) to stop the dragon war from destroying what remains of Ansalon after the War of Souls.
One of the branches of the plot in Dragons of a new Age trilogy was recovering the pieces of a shattered Dragonlance and face the overlords. Also, Laurana used one at the top of the Tower of the Sun when she fought Beryl.
But one of the eggs of Mallystryx contains the reincarnation of Thakisis and by the fire of the new dragon queen's breath, the Knights of Thakisis forge darklances which they use to wage war on Ansalon from their new mountain domain.
You lost me here but I assume this is part of your plot.
The elves of Qualinost and the Dwarves of Thorbadin unite and build a massive tower called the Dragonspire by the lake of old Qualinost. The tower serves as a beacon to summon the Silver dragons to Ansalon in order for the forces of Ansalon to defeat the new knights of Thakisis.
Correction: elves of *Qualinesti* and dwarves of *Thorbardin*.
Btw, the good dragons return to Ansalon at the end of Dragons of a Vanished Moon along with the gods, etc. Of course, as a DM, changing things is your prerogative .
Hope this helps.
P.S. The Academy was not exactly the destroyed by Beryl. During Beryl's attack on the site, Palin's son Ulin tried to help defend it but ended up blowing it up with one of his alchemical experiments. Of course, very few know the truth (perhaps only Ulin himself).
Thanx for the info on the Academy and the thing about Mina destroying the dragonlords etc.
Again, it's a messy time to keep track of.
As for the part where I lost you: Yeah, it's my campaign plotline. I figured it was right after the WoS, but obviously the timeline I got from dragonlance.com is flawed as it says 43 SC = WoS, so I figured it would last a few years and then be over. But since that isn't the case, I'll just rewind till about 43-44 SC.
I want the events I described to take place right after the death of Thakisis and the end of the WoS. I never heard the good dragons returned with the gods, so I figured a sort of good-dragon-beacon could be a nice plot event, but if they are allready there, I will just incorporate them into the flow of events and lose the dragonspire event.
It all boils down to this:
The things I like about dragonlance and makes me want to play there is a) the dragons and riding them. b) The dragonlances. c) the conflicts and wars of epic scale and how the simple people can become heroes and influence the epic events.
Problem is that when you try to say okay, we have a campaign that takes place during the WotL, you have a million small details you need to take into account when all you wanna do is ride dragons and wield dragonlances. I like the 5th age especially because of the massive dragonwar and the missing gods. But if you want to set a campaign in mid 5th age, you need to read 20 novels just to get a clue, and if you set your game in post-WoS time all the dragons are dead and the fun is over.
But if you just bear with me, I am finally starting to get a good slightly detailed picture of the 5th age.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Nevermind that Gilean didn't have to lose his godhood and the "balance" turning into: 6-7-6. .
Weight on the center of a scale doesn't increase the weight on either side, now does it?
That's kinda the point of neutrality.
Originally posted by The Soulforged
Weight on the center of a scale doesn't increase the weight on either side, now does it?
That's kinda the point of neutrality.
Dragonlance's balance is a triangle with Good, Neutrality and Evil at each apex. As such if one apex is stronger the balance is gone.
source: Dragonlance Adventures campaign setting.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Dragonlance's balance is a triangle with Good, Neutrality and Evil at each apex. As such if one apex is stronger the balance is gone.
source: Dragonlance Adventures campaign setting.
Tracy's website confirms this. Check it out by clicking here .
Honestly, I've seen this debated back and forth for a while now. I asked Margaret on this once, and she seems to think that both models (scale and triangle) can work together. I'm not quite sure how that works.
Neutrality isn't involved. If you look at the meaning of the word neutral, you'll see that, by definition, any neutral force couldn't upset the balance between other forces. No?
Originally posted by The Soulforged
"At it's grandest scale, the points on the illustration represent the following elements: (A) Good; (B) Evil, (C) Chaos, and (D) the will of humanity to choose for themselves."
Neutrality isn't involved. If you look at the meaning of the word neutral, you'll see that, by definition, any neutral force couldn't upset the balance between other forces. No?
That is taken from the website. Please read the Dragonlance Adventures Handbook, page 8.
P.S. Neutrality in Dragonlance is much more than the passive absence of Good and Evil. Neutrality is a force and a goal with as much strength as Good or Evil, that is why Dragonlance stands on the Triangle instead of a Scale.
Daralathas Talurien, Knight Prefect Of E'Li, House Cleric
Sothi Nuinqua Tsalarioth
Originally posted by Richard Connery
That is taken from the website. Please read the Dragonlance Adventures Handbook, page 8.
P.S. Neutrality in Dragonlance is much more than the passive absence of Good and Evil. Neutrality is a force and a goal with as much strength as Good or Evil, that is why Dragonlance stands on the Triangle instead of a Scale.
Do you really assume that everyone has this book? I don't.
And it's obvious that the authors were referring, in the WoS, to the balance between good and evil (yes, with the scale metaphor). Y'know, scale... balance...? Otherwise (ie. using the triangular symbolism) the statements about restoring balance would be false, as you emplied earlier, since Neutrality would have more representatives than Good or Evil. But I think they knew what they were talking about.
PS. What are Neutrality's supposed goals and how do they affect those of Good or Evil?
Originally posted by Archaeon
- If this is all going on AFTER the War of Souls, are then not entering the 6th age? I mean it gets confusing when you say that WoHS don't exist during 5th age but they do, because so many people assume that you play 5th age AFTER the War of Souls, effectively meaning that it was pretty pointless game-wise that the WoHS were destroyed since they return just in time for you to play.
From what I remember reading sometime last year (after finishing Dragons of a Vanished Moon), the Fifth Age is also known as the Age of Mortals. This fact is reinforced by the fact of what happened to Takhisis and Paladine at the end of the War of Souls.
Now since the gods are in a bit of disarray (losing the central patrons of good and of evil), they are scrambling to save their own asses (as in Sargas gaining more power). This still leaves the mortals of the world with problems, but with some guidance from their deities if needed. It is largely the mortals who must shape the future. This was not the case with the changing of previous age changes where immortals were the ones responsible (Cataclysm, Second Cataclysm, Dragon Wars, ect)
That is what I remember. I am probably missing somethings, so feel free to correct me
Originally posted by The Soulforged
Do you really assume that everyone has this book? I don't.
Since it's the first ever DL campaign setting book I sometimes assume most people have read it. Here's the quote:
All of the universe stands upon the Great Triangle. This foundation has always existed and will exist down through the ages of time and until the end of the world. At the apexes of the triangles stand the three anchors upon which the universe is built. These are known among men as Good, Evil and Neutrality. It is into these positions that the gods align themselves in their effort to maintain progress in the universe they have brought into being.
And it's obvious that the authors were referring, in the WoS, to the balance between good and evil (yes, with the scale metaphor). Y'know, scale... balance...? Otherwise (ie. using the triangular symbolism) the statements about restoring balance would be false, as you emplied earlier, since Neutrality would have more representatives than Good or Evil. But I think they knew what they were talking about.
Authors are human, they make mistakes just like everyone else. And Dragonlance has been known for more than its fair share of continuity mistakes.
PS. What are Neutrality's supposed goals and how do they affect those of Good or Evil?
Neutrality is not about not making choices unlike in other settings. In Dragonlance, Neutrality is a force of equal strength to Good and Evil and its goals are continued existence of balance. For instance, in the War of the Lance, priests of Gilean, etc. would be expected to work with priests of Paladine because Evil was on the rise. They were effectively doing Good deeds but because their motivation was Balance and not Good they are still Neutral. On the other hand, in the years prior to the Cataclysm where Good was in the process of eradicating evil from Ansalon, priests of Neutrality would work with the clerics of the evil deities in stopping the Kingpriest.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Authors are human, they make mistakes just like everyone else. And Dragonlance has been known for more than its fair share of continuity mistakes.
So let's not try to create more than there need be, okay? The only evidence we have to show that they are referring to one type of balance over the other is that one actually makes sense in that context (Good/Evil) and one doesn't (Good/Neutrality/Evil). Again, I think they knew what they were talking about.
In Dragonlance, Neutrality is a force of equal strength to Good and Evil and its goals are continued existence of balance.
Now you should see my point. If Neutrality is there to keep balance, then why would having more power in Neutrality upset balance, as you said initially? You said yourself that Neutrality is there to maintain balance.
That's all I needed to hear.
"Nevermind that Gilean didn't have to lose his godhood and the "balance" turning into: 6-7-6."
According to your (and my) deffinition, 6-7-6 emplies, more balance....
Originally posted by The Soulforged
So let's not try to create more than there need be, okay? The only evidence we have to show that they are referring to one type of balance over the other is that one actually makes sense in that context (Good/Evil) and one doesn't (Good/Neutrality/Evil). Again, I think they knew what they were talking about.
Dragonlance Aventures was written by Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis so if you say the Triangle doesn't make sense then you're actually contradicting yourself when you say they know what they were talking about.
Now you should see my point. If Neutrality is there to keep balance, then why would having more power in Neutrality upset balance, as you said initially? You said yourself that Neutrality is there to maintain balance.
[snip]
According to your (and my) deffinition, 6-7-6 emplies, more balance....
By your definition, Neutrality can't act because any action it takes will upset the balance. By the Triangle definition (not mine, it was devised and written by Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis) every action Neutrality takes is aimed at maintaining balance.
But I feel I'm repeating myself. If you don't like the Triangle model Dragonlance has been using since its basic inception you're in your right to change it.
P.S. The reason I consider leaving Gilean as god in WoS as a mistake is that there was no strong (or weak for that matter) reason to keep it that way and a good reason to make him a mortal like Paladine. He could take over the Library of Palanthas and continue the work of his avatar/son/whatever Astinus for instance.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Dragonlance Aventures was written by Tracy Hickman and Margaret Weis so if you say the Triangle doesn't make sense then you're actually contradicting yourself when you say they know what they were talking about.
I said it didn't make sense in that context (because the authors said that the 6-7-6 situation was maintaining balance, which it wouldn't be with the triangle system). I also said they weren't using it in that context. You were claiming that they were using it in that context when you said that they were wrong about 6-7-6 being balanced.
Understand?
By your definition, Neutrality can't act because any action it takes will upset the balance.
I never gave a definition, and I certainly didn't give that deffinition. I agreed with your deffinition, which made my arguement for me: Neutrality maintains balance, so balance shouldn't be lost by giving more power to Neutrality.
If you don't like the Triangle model Dragonlance has been using since its basic inception you're in your right to change it.
I didn't say that I didn't like that system. I only said that that obviously wasn't the balance that they were referring to in that instance.
Anyway, your whole reply shows that you don't understand what I've said or that you're just intentionally misinterpreting it to avoid admitting that you're wrong. Either way, I've said all that I can say.
Originally posted by The Soulforged
I said it didn't make sense in that context (because the authors said that the 6-7-6 situation was maintaining balance, which it wouldn't be with the triangle system). I also said they weren't using it in that context. You were claiming that they were using it in that context when you said that they were wrong about 6-7-6 being balanced.
Understand?
First, I never said they were using the Triangle in WoS. (that's my whole point!) Secondly, your contradiction comes from the fact that you make a blanket statement saying the authors know what they were doing. It stands to reason that if they knew they were doing in WoS (I prefer to say equate it to an honest mistake) then when they wrote Dragonlance Adventures they didn't know what they were doing according to you because, as Trampas also said, the Triangle and scale are apparently mutually exclusive.
Unless you think they both can co-exist, in which case I'd like to hear how.
I never gave a definition, and I certainly didn't give that deffinition. I agreed with your deffinition, which made my arguement for me: Neutrality maintains balance, so balance shouldn't be lost by giving more power to Neutrality.
Again, because Neutrality isn't the absence of Good and Evil. If you give Neutrality more power then Good and Evil will disappear and only Neutrality will remain. No more kind, empathic acts and no more evil, sadistic actions. Neutrality maintains balance, it is NOT balance.
I didn't say that I didn't like that system. I only said that that obviously wasn't the balance that they were referring to in that instance.
This statement is only logical if both the Triangle and Scale models can coexist, which to me at least, doesn't seem possible.
Anyway, your whole reply shows that you don't understand what I've said or that you're just intentionally misinterpreting it to avoid admitting that you're wrong. Either way, I've said all that I can say.
There's no need to get offended as I haven't insulted you. Also, this is not a question of being right or wrong as you'll find many instances in Dragonlance lore where different sources contradict each other (heck, the Tales of the Lance boxed set contradicts itself a couple of times). If you haven't read Dragonlance Adventures which lays down the laws of Dragonlance (literally, the Triangle is just one of them) then by reading WoS you were probably led to believe Dragonlance rests on a scale, thus you entering this discussion in terms of "right" and "wrong". That is why I classify the 6-7-6 as a mistake as it contradicts previous material. It's a continuity error. That's also why I say that choosing the Scale is your prerogative.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Again, because Neutrality isn't the absence of Good and Evil. If you give Neutrality more power then Good and Evil will disappear and only Neutrality will remain. No more kind, empathic acts and no more evil, sadistic actions. Neutrality maintains balance, it is NOT balance.
Allow me to pipe in here, when I at least say that this isn't particularly how I see it. I agree with the statement that the purpose of neutrality is to restore balance, but to me such acts of restoration are purely reactionary.
While good, neutrality, and evil are all very much equal participants in the balance, I don't think it's necessarily accurate to assume that they all fit the exact same role.
To this capacity, I think the "scale" is an accurate metaphor. When one side got too heavier than the other, the fulcrum that is neutrality would move it's position along the lever to undermine the weight that the current "heavy" side has.
To also use the triangle model, let's assume that two people stand in each corner of the triangle, and the good people and the evil people mercilously tug on the ball trying to get it into their own corner. They're pretty evenly matched, so for the most part the ball stays near the center of the triangle. However, one team may get a second wind eventually and start pulling the ball near their corner. When the ball nearly reaches their corner, then the neutral team stands up and starts pulling the ball towards their corner--which just happens to bisect the distance between good and evil corners. Once the ball has been dragged to the neutral corner, the neutrals are content to slowly let it drift back out to the "true" center of the triangle. Why? Not because their fence-sitters, but because making sure it doesn't stay in either corner is their agenda.
And thus we see why 7 neutral gods still makes a balance. If either the good or the evil team "got the ball", neither one of them is content to give it up the way that the neutral team is. So regardless if the good and evil corners were reduced to one person per team, the two neutral people would still only have sway and excercise their agenda when the ball was pulled into either corner, and would be just as willing to give it up when they were sure it was in no danger of being held by either team at the moment.
In short, this is why both models work: because the neutrals are very much the arbiters of the balance in each system. They still have an agenda, they are still very much in key players in the balance and actively work to maintain it when it truly needs maintaining.
Again, this is but one interpretation, however I thought I would throw it out there.
To properly think about this, we have to go back to the top. The High God and Chaos are both the essence of Law and Chaos, but with a heavily Neutral bent. Good and Evil mean nothing at that scale. It is only when the level is dropped to the 7 white and 7 black that the moral alignment makes a difference. It stands to reason, then, that the fulcrum of the balance rests on Gilean, because he is pretty much the essence of true neutrality. Neither good, evil, lawful, or chaotic, Gilean is the center focus of both axes. Thus, even with 2 gods removed, the balance is still maintained so long as gilean is there.
The concept of the triangle is as flawed as the concept of the High God being good. We've heard of evil ascendant, and we've seen good ascendant, but what the heck is neutrality ascendant? Andre` is right in saying that they don't care so long as the pendulum swings freely between good and evil without straying on one side too long. If you must have a triangle, think of it like a V. Good on one side, and Evil on the other, with neutrality the low point between. So long as the pendulum continues to swing, neutrality is ok. They exist to make sure that one side isnt overbalanced.
Now going back up a level, the High God and Chaos exist on an axis perpendicular to the good-evil one. Law to Chaos, with neutrality between. Remember, DLA says that gilean was called from beyond space and time to hold the essence of creation. The reason he didnt lose his godhood when paladine and takhisis did is because gilean IS godhood. It is in him that the text for creating and destroying gods is held. He balances the four points, and allows for weight to be added or removed in equal amounts.
It just makes more sense for the pantheon to be more neutral weighted. They don't change the balance anyway.
Last example- Atoms. There are always an equal amount of protons (positive charge) and electrons (negative charge), but the neutrons (no charge) can be however many they want, but generally equal the proton/electron count. They don't add or remove anything from the charge balance, but give more weight to the atom.
Paladine was never much of an advocate of free will, believing that if you show people how to live an ordered and lawful life, they will end up living in peace and harmony and that everything will be fine. There isn't really any option there for people to NOT follow such a life, since Good doesn't want people being amoral or evil or acting against society or in opposition to the well-being of others. Paladine's purpose is to teach, show, illustrate, and even take action directly in accordance with this ideal life.
Takhisis is also not much of a believer in free will. She believes that if you demonstrate power and dominance through the suppression of freedom and the institution of tyranny and darkness, everything will be fine. There's no place in her ideal world for compassion or peace or any of those things since they're in opposition to her edicts of control and submission. She's still interested in order, but it's an order that binds mortal souls to a permanent state of obedience. Her purpose is to bring everything under her power and take control from the other gods in deference to her.
Gilean has no interest in telling people what they should do. His pantheon incorporates ideologies that exist independently of moral choices, since those choices are supposed to be entirely in the hands of mortals. Gilean would never ascribe or compel anyone to make a moral decision. As the guardian of all names and all knowledge, it's within his power to do so, but he possesses an infinite patience and responsibility. Gilean, too, has an interest in order, but it's an order that depends on all things being in place and fulfilling their purpose. This is his purpose, also - to preserve the stability of the world through the advocation of free will and sustaining of knowledge.
The Good pantheon supports Paladine's edicts in their own ways. Mishakal supports a life without suffering or pain. Majere supports a life of tranquility, discipline and diligence. Kiri-Jolith supports a life of just and honorable actions in defense of the weak and helpless. Habbakuk supports a life of compassion and communion with the natural world and its inhabitants. Branchala supports a life of harmony and appreciation for beauty, music, and wonder.
The Evil pantheon supports (or rather, cooperates with as necessary) Takhisis' ideals. Sargonnas demands a life of surrender to the emotions of war, wrath and vengeance. Chemosh demands a life of surrender to entropy and decay. Morgion demands a life of surrender to nature's pestilence and rot. Hiddukel demands a life of surrender to ignorance and despair. Zeboim demands a life of surrender to the fear of nature's furies.
The Neutral pantheon supports Gilean's doctrine of free will and balance. Reorx promotes a life of industry, hard work and creation. Sirrion promotes a life of passionate embace of change. Shinare promotes a life of earnest communication and exchange between others. Zivilyn promotes a life of enlightenment and wisdom. Chislev promotes a life of oneness with the wilderness and the web of life on Krynn.
Neutrality therefore is the only pantheon whose spheres of influence are specifically without moral bias. Reorx will not dictate whether you forge a weapon or a farming tool, just that you respect the forge. Sirrion cares not if you stoke the flames of passion to help others or to harm them, just that you respect the fire. Shinare has no interest in whether your profits are donated to an orphanage or locked away in greed, just that you respect the spirit of enterprise. Zivilyn doesn't demand that you uncover within yourself the wisdom to aid others or to ruin them, just that you respect the light that reveals it. And Chislev doesn't care if a beast serves you or tears you apart, just that you respect the wild.
If you take Neutrality from the world, and leave only the gods of Good and those of Evil, the world immediately becomes one of endless conflict and struggle. Good needs Neutrality to remind it of the consequences of enforced peace and show respect for the world itself. Evil needs Neutrality to hold it back from devouring everything, including itself, in pursuit of control of eveything that exists.
But Neutrality needs Good as a reminder that free will is only useful if life and compassion exist to benefit from it, and it needs Evil as a reminder that free will can bring dissent, betrayal, and hatred. Just as Good and Evil cannot co-exist without Neutrality, Neutrality needs Good and Evil to co-exist. It is an active and equal partner in the triad, not the middle-ground nor the absence of the others.
The High God, of course, is pure Law and brought all of this into being from Beyond. And Chaos is the undoing of all of existence, and anathema to life, death, free will, and everything in between. The irony is that the world needs even these to co-exist in some state, for without the void to bring forth the world from, the High God's Law would have no substance. Chaos is the motivating force behind everything the pantheons do, as without the fruits of their efforts the world would boil away into the nothingness from which it came.
Cheers,
Cam
Personally, I'm of the belief that with Neutrality not reducing itself to six gods is a sign that Takhisis and Paladine may not be gone forever. Basically, Paladine reducing himself probably made Takhisis' descension occur, but not fully. Regardless of Paladine's earliest comments, I don't see him sacrificing himself in full for Krynn, because if that were the case, he would have done it a LONG time ago.
No, he was pushed because he knew if he didn't, he was never going to be able to get back into Krynn. Plus, with Gilean still up above, the imbalance is still there. In fact, they may still be partial dieties to some extent, which would explain why Takhisis is rumored to still be seen walking around... not that we haven't seen mortals doing that after death too.
Regardless of Takhisis' actions, I don't see the other 20 willing to make the precident of forever destroying one of their own in this matter. ["If it could happen to her, it could happen to me" syndrome.]
Now, I'm not saying they're coming back anytime soon. It may be ten to twenty years (Earth-time, not Krynn-time) before we even get hints of these things happening. I'm just saying that a loophole was purposefully put into the story in order to turn things around later if needed.
I don't see that Paladine doesn't give much room for free will. He isn't like Takhisis, who seeks total obedience by dominating people and taking away their free will.
Paladine does present the path of good, yes. However, he doesn't ram it down your throat, saying that you will follow or be destroyed.
He presents the path, and in the end, it is you, the mortal, who must decide. Ergo, free will is maintained.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
Paladine does present the path of good, yes. However, he doesn't ram it down your throat, saying that you will follow or be destroyed.
Of course, he isn't a colossal jerk about it. He's the patron of Good, after all! But consider this - if not for Neutrality and its doctrine of free will, Paladine and the other gods of Good would be constantly trying to eliminate or redeem anyone who didn't believe in a world of peace, order, and compassion. It's extremely subtle, but it's something like being a parent. The Good pantheon is confident it knows what is right, else it wouldn't be trying so hard to thwart evil. So, it actively promotes its agenda on its children. The tough part for Good is standing back and letting these children make their own mistakes in order to learn from them, even if they ultimately turn to darkness. That lesson is Neutrality's gift to Good, not something Good would pursue on its own.
I think that's the major difference in Dragonlance between what we would characterize as "good" and what actually serves as the role of Neutrality. Good - Neutrality = no free will or choice.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by talinthas
Last example- Atoms. There are always an equal amount of protons (positive charge) and electrons (negative charge), but the neutrons (no charge) can be however many they want, but generally equal the proton/electron count. They don't add or remove anything from the charge balance, but give more weight to the atom.
You know, I actually thought of this example but came to the exact opposite conclusion. Hmm... how should I put it. Well, the protons are positive. And matter of the same charge repells itself. If that's so, how can the core of the atom have more than 1 protron? Because of the Neutrons. They allow matter of same charge to break the magnetivity barrier that keeps them apart and actually bring them closer together. As such they do add something to the charge balance though not directly. If they didn't exist each atom would only have one proton. See how this relates to what Cam wrote:
Originally posted by Cam Banks
If you take Neutrality from the world, and leave only the gods of Good and those of Evil, the world immediately becomes one of endless conflict and struggle. Good needs Neutrality to remind it of the consequences of enforced peace and show respect for the world itself. Evil needs Neutrality to hold it back from devouring everything, including itself, in pursuit of control of eveything that exists.
Exactly. Neutrality isn't just ballast to counteract unbalance. Its very (active) presence is needed to assure balance.
You mention that you don't know what "Neutrality Ascendant" is. Well, one way to demonstrate it would be to remove all Good and Evil gods. Imagine how Krynn would be like after a few centuries of unchecked neutrality indoctrination: There would be no evil and no good deeds. Everyone would be a mindless zombie incapable of demonstrating any feelings for their kin. The neutral gods don't teach empathy and they don't teach envy. The world would be no less different than a world where machines rule. If you know the Inevitables from the Monster Manual that's the society Krynn would host. There would interest for objects but not passion for people, there would be respect for nature but not enthusiasm for pets. There would be no fear of death as the concepts of eternal rest and damnation would be alien to the people of Krynn. In essence it would be a world devoid of morality.
Now, using the Triangle model, when all three apexes are in balance the world doesn't become like my example above which must happen if Balance = Neutrality. Instead, Good, Evil and Neutrality engage each other, learning, evolving and progressing as the WoS appendix mentions. That's how I view it anyway.
Btw, Talinthas I do agree with you when you say the concept of the Highgod being good is flawed (as is presented in the Appendix) but that's a whole new can of worms.
Remember, it was through a bit of decite and manipulation that Paladine forced the Heroes of the Lance into starting their journeys (re: Tas, Hederick, and the Healing Staff).
As for in Appendix to WoS, it must be remembered that Paladine wrote it, so by its own nature, it is not an objective explanation. Otherwise there would have been no reason to have an in-story character tell it; unless it is for fun... but Valthonis is no Fizban when it comes to humor. Even Astinus has never been 100% objective in things or completely truthful. (Non-interference my ***). Basically, in regards to the Appendix, the propaganda was dripping off of the pages so thick at some points I had trouble holding the book.
We were dupped to a large degree at the end of Summer's Flame by Takhisis. We are being dupped again at the end of War of Souls by Paladine, it is just that this time I'm not buying it. [Note: This is not a complaint. Never having an accurate picture of the world I believe is a 'GREAT' campaign quality.]