Don't get me wrong, I am glad to see that Dragonlance will be brought to 3e, but it makes a bit more sense to update Greyhawk to a fully detailed, definitive setting in a hardcover book(you know, like a real campaign setting...) if it is going to be the "Home Setting".
As far as anyone can tell, this is no where in the future.
Yeah yeah, the Living Greyhawk Gazeteer is great, but compare it to the wealth of information in the FR book, and the Living Gazeteer begins to look as flimsy as its cover.
Does anyone else want Greyhawk to remain the home setting without it's own detailed sourcebook?
Should Greyhawk be tossed completely, or embraced?
The halfway point that WotC seems content to sit on is a bit absurd.
Either detail it completely like FR and Dragonlance, or scrap it already.
This halfway point just makes it look like keeping GH as the "Home Setting" was simply a ruse to get old schoolers interested in 3E.
See the post in the D&D General Board and post your support, Greyhawkers.
No seriously, they (the capitalists that they are) really should update Greyhawk to at least a hardcover book like they did for FR. I thought that book was very well done, and at the same time wondered when Greyhawk would be released. Still not done. Come on WotC, be the capitalists that you are. Update the setting, take our money, make us old guys happy.
Leave Greyhawk as it is. It would be nice of the '83 set and FtA were made available again, but we don't need another update. It won't really accomplish anything.
The link (in case you didn't know) for the regional sites is here .
Most of these sites have enough collective material to make you forget about chunking out 20-30 bucks to WOTC for another hardbook, and its all free ;) (the best price on Earth).
Also, joining up with the RPGA for Living Greyhawk is now free as well, so now you can even get adventure scenarios for free too.
Lastly, although its been some time since I ran and participated in a Living Greyhawk campaign, the Triads who run and manage the local regions are incredibly helpful and easily accessible.
Bleh on WOTC. Go for the free fan stuff. Some of it is much better than what WOTC would have wrapped up with pretty pictures and neat fonts anyhow.
Why the hell is Greyhawk not the *default setting* anymore?!
Yet, they use names and features of WoG in the DD books!
Any logical explanation of this phenomenon?
However, you have to understand that "core setting" now translates roughly to "dumping ground". In other words, WoG has been reduced to a name (Greyhawk) and a list of "core" deities that DM can plug&play in any homebrew setting lacking local gods.
As to why they are doing it, this dead horse has been beaten more times than I care to remember but let's do it one last time for argument's sake.
You have to think like a marketing guy from Hasbro who cares only about one thing: $
What you're trying to do is sell a product to a large group of gamers. The newest bunch among them don't know a thing about WoG, except that "oldies" gamers seem upset whenever a negative thing is said about it.
Sure, you could "upgrade" that setting but that would make vet gamers unhappy because they would probably see that upgrade as a corruption of their beloved setting. Great Kingdom's lightning trains anyone?
Thus, what you do is favor newer settings with a lot of cool gadgets that are sure to draw in the young folks. At the same time, you make sure that elements of older settings become an integral part of the "core" rules. That way, you please everyone. The new younger players who use, say, Eberron simply disregard the deity section of the PHB, while vet players can disregard Eberron but will feel drawn to the PHB because they recognize familiar names from WoG.
One part of the orginal post sticks out in my mind.
Does anyone else want Greyhawk to remain the home setting without it's own detailed sourcebook?
No I don't want GH as the default setting anymore, nor do I need it associated wih 3E either. In fact the only difference between the newer 'detailed' sourcebooks and the flimsy LGG is 3E crunch. New feats, new spells, new gear, PrC's, etc. As far as setting information goes, that all gets in the way and I've quite OD'd on crunch as it is from the core books.
As to why WotC won't publish such or license such, I have nothing but speculation. My suspicion is that there is a prejudice against Greyhawk as being "old hat." Yet, they are afraid to let anyone else work with Greyhawk because to paraphrase Frosty, "There just might be some magic in that old top hat they found." No matter how hard Wotc, and TSR before them, have tried to sideline WoG, it keeps coming back with a devoted fan following. I think that annoys Wotc and scares them a bit at the same time, enough that they won't let it go, nor will they fully embrace it.
Of course, the retort often heard is, "But it won't make any money, so we won't support it." Cool. Then let it license to someone who thinks they can make it go financially. But they won't. So much for that "out."
Just like GH revived in 98 and then with LGG, I'm sure it will resurface again in a large edition, with some changes from LGG, at some point. Someone might even realize that Greyhawk is an "evergreen" property like Monopoly. It may not be "new" or "cutting edge" or "avant-garde" but it can reliably sell, year after year.
Until then the fan community, principally here and at Canonfire.com, continue to offer new looks at Greyhawk for those interested. What's Canonfire's "membership" rate? It is over 3,000 (and its free to browse or become a "member"). No idea what the readership is here but its an active area.
Not a bad time to be a Greyhawker, even if neither is it the best.
GVD
This leads me to an important question:
Why the hell is Greyhawk not the *default setting* anymore?!
Yet, they use names and features of WoG in the DD books!
Any logical explanation of this phenomenon?
Greyhawk *is* the default setting: that phrase was never intended to mean anything much different from that world's status now.
But I was rather refering at the Greyhawk Boards FAQ where it is written (more or less): No, WoG is not the default setting anymore.
I wondered about it, as, in fact, the gods' names are still in use, and many of the *default* adventures are set up in the Flanaess, as you can suspect from names and locations.
Also, I keep thinking we don't have to worry about Greyhawk's future:
Not only that we have a big internet community and new publications (from RPGA, of course), the d20 books are still avaible via the www.
Besides, I personally count with a major relaunch of WoG in the near future, please let me explain my thinkings to you in short:
1. The ToEE video game was a great success, considering that there were technically better products out the same time. At least video game community became more familiar with WoG for the moment. Surely, people will produce some kind of sequel.
2. FR still remains "Oerth 1.5" a mere plagiate of Greyhawk. And as at the moment the FR setting is living a decline of quality, more and more plyers switch to another setting.
3. Eberron will flop. It's an attempt to attract younger players with that comic/anime style. But people interested in anime play oriental adventures, sworld world or duel masters. I, the great seer
predict a fate similar to Mystara that today is scarcely remembered by anyone.4. Most d20 settings, like say, Kingdoms of Kalamar, Lankhmar, Elric(?!) or Nyambe, can easily be added and linked with WoG elements and campaigns.
Take into account that WoG still holds world's best adventurind campaigns for 2nd ed.
5. When the RPGA should drop the LGH campaign some day, there will remain many afficionados, yet familiar to a setting they want to besupported some way.
WotC does a terrible merchandise policy with RPGs, as a matter of fact. This stand - still could benefit older settings. Or why do they inaugurate the memory of Birthright, for example, if not because they want to milk money of some way?
:D It is the custom of insane Overkings to speak that self - convinced.
2. Since the Realms precedes the World of Greyhawk by several years (1967 vs 1972 or 1980), it isn't a 'plagiate' (and these forums don't exist to host libel). Neither is there sign of many players abandoning the Realms.
3. Wizards will work very hard to make sure that it doesn't, since it's their great licensing hope (the RPG line is, as I understand it, practically a loss leader).
Since the Realms precedes the World of Greyhawk by several years (1967 vs 1972 or 1980), it isn't a 'plagiate' (and these forums don't exist to host libel). Neither is there sign of many players abandoning the Realms.
Er .. what? EGG was already playing his GH campaign in his basement when Ed Greenwood had yet to hear about the D&D system. So, how could FR predates GH
Moreover, the GH boxed set was published in 1983 while the first FR boxed set came out only 4 years later in 1987.
Ed created the Realms in 1967, writing short stories there and developing its lore before there was a D&D. He started adapting it to D&D monsters and magic in 1975. 1972 is when the Greyhawk Campaign began, 1980 is when the World of Greyhawk was given its current geography.
Granted.
That said, if we're talking about fan support for either setting, then we can only compare them after their publication date.
Sure, I was just pointing out that calling the Realms 'a mere plagiate of Greyhawk' isn't just false, it's impossible.
:D Didn't want to insult someone's fav setting. Was polemicaly speaking, without a doubt.
But, as far as I heard and experienced
- FR has many elements of WoG in it, although that doesn't make it less atractive. The pantheon, the oriental adventures setting, the races and (at a time) nearly the same monsters. Calling it a plagiate surely may go too far, but I'd personally say that both settings seems very similiar from a certain point of sight. It may be because when FR was promoted, they wanted many (buhuuu that vile traitors ;) ) WoG players to switch.
- FR appears to be a setting many people don't really want no more - it's not that I wanted it that way, but in some European countries (Germany, Spain, Italy) the local publishers appear to want to drop the line and sustitute it with the new Eberron and DL products. That's at least what you read in the magazines & on the web. A large market is to be abandoned - may this be the beginning of the end? As far as I know, in all those countries a huge fan community for FR exists. Can Anyone explain that to me, BTW?
It's just what I came to know, as RPG adddict I surely wouldn't like the Realms' decline
the oriental adventures setting
In all fairness, the Oriental Adventures setting was first published independently of any setting. Later, since WoG was the main setting, people thought about dropping it somewhere on Oerth (and the last part of the Fate of Istus module indeed hinted at that). Later, since FR proved a bigger cash-cow than WoG, they displaced OA there. It was simply a matter of $
FR appears to be a setting many people don't really want no more - it's not that I wanted it that way, but in some European countries (Germany, Spain, Italy) the local publishers appear to want to drop the line and sustitute it with the new Eberron and DL products. That's at least what you read in the magazines & on the web. A large market is to be abandoned - may this be the beginning of the end? As far as I know, in all those countries a huge fan community for FR exists. Can Anyone explain that to me, BTW?
Being european myself, I can confirm this, at least in my country. Local companies translating D&D products seem to concentrate on "Core" D&D, DL, RL and (now) Eberron. FR is still translated but much more slowly than ever before.
I also know many FR fans who regret that FR is no longer what it was at the beginning before lvl 20+ NPC started appearing by the dozens. The 3.X version of FR somewhat corrected the problem but most seem to think it has grown too big and eccentric for its own good. Only time will tell though...
Never had a reason to doubt it...
To FR: Seems to some kind of arguement because of the slow release of the modules in Europe. People prefer to play with imported US books.
In Germany, the FR was about to be dropped and recently *saved" by a no-name publisher. And the novel line is to be dropped as well; think the WoSQ novels won't even be released. That's the reason why I thought Eberron could flop - people hardly maintain one line a commercial success.
:embarrass Hard times for roleplayers in good old Europe.
Ed created the Realms in 1967, writing short stories there and developing its lore before there was a D&D. He started adapting it to D&D monsters and magic in 1975. 1972 is when the Greyhawk Campaign began, 1980 is when the World of Greyhawk was given its current geography.
Are you seriously saying that FR is a coherant setting without all the D&D tropes? Take that all out, and all you have is a couple place and character names.
Whatever it was in 1967, I'd wager that what's there now it's at least 70% straight Gygaxian D&D and 20% taken from other miscellaneous D&D suppliments. That long ago eclipsed any possible claim to originality or seniority.
To OA: But I saw a greyhawk module with the OA emblem on it - will say I held it in my own hands. (It was the reason for my post Kara - Thur and Otherlands?). And could have sworn that it was no falsification. (Might be possible, because the guy claimed it was a reprint from a pdf data.) The publication date was 1993.
Never had a reason to doubt it...
Uh?
DLR1 Otherlands was published in 1990 and is a DL accessory
Kara-Tur the Eastern Realms is a boxed set with the FR logo on it.
I just reviewed each and every OA modules pre-dating 3E and none of them bear the GH logo. Indeed, half of them display the OA logo and the other half the FR logo.
Either your memory is faulty, or it was a hoax.
No, for not complicating it any more, Otherlands has nothing to do with the matter.
And the other book was the sourcebook *The Horde* (It had the same cover, at least) and had the Greyhawk Adventures logo as we all know it, on its front cover.
I just gave it a glance - it was a print of some pdfs that boy had collected and he claimed that with this book, you had all you needed to describe the lands west of the bakluni/paynim regions.
It was about a year ago, when I had it in my hands. Later, when I started using Greyhawk as my fav setting and saw the large canon, I wondered why Kara - Thur wasn't mentioned although I had seen it on some web sites...
This lead to my Thread *What about Kara - Thur...?*
Got lost in Greyspace, it seems....And the other book was the sourcebook *The Horde* (It had the same cover, at least) and had the Greyhawk Adventures logo as we all know it, on its front cover.
Then it really was a hoax, because the real accessory had nothing to do with GH.
Proof
Are you seriously saying that FR is a coherant setting without all the D&D tropes? Take that all out, and all you have is a couple place and character names.
The D&D influence on the Realms is limited to the details of how magic works (though it was always Vanceian) and some specifics of demihuman races and monsters. It's a human-dominated sword-and-sorcery setting, and those things are all relatively peripheral stuff that doesn't fundamentally affect the feel or structure of the Realms. Even the first Realms story, despite being juvenilia, is recognizably the Realms we know now. Ed's creation vastly outbulks the relatively few elements imported from D&D.
Just try reading any Realms source and ignoring all references to specific D&D-derived monsters and spells -- it's substantially identical.
Ed writes more on the early Realms here.
Just try reading any Realms source and ignoring all references to specific D&D-derived monsters and spells -- it's substantially identical.
No, it's not. It's a list of proper nouns at that point and nothing more, contextless without D&D.
It's wonderful that we can disagree, though.
This could mean
A) that there are players out there writing their fav stuff together. - OK.
B) There are jerks out there falsificating game material without license and for commercial purposes. - This lets me frighten...
I liked the Horde Manual a LOT, anyway.
---------------------------------------------------
One question I noone will doom me for:
Having started with that discussion about FR, I wonder, not because I wanna be mean or else, but out of real interest, what, having played WoG could attract someone to play FR? The novels? The art? Some special hint of the setting I probably don't know? Because settings are out there in overwhelming masses. Why exactly FR while playing one of those great commercial settings like WoG?
One question I noone will doom me for:
Having started with that discussion about FR, I wonder, not because I wanna be mean or else, but out of real interest, what, having played WoG could attract someone to play FR? The novels? The art? Some special hint of the setting I probably don't know? Because settings are out there in overwhelming masses. Why exactly FR while playing one of those great commercial settings like WoG?
Er .. shouldn't you be asking this on the FR forum? After all, if what interests you is what convinced people to drop GH in favor of FR, it stands to reason those folks are FR all the way now, no?
That said, I [die-hard GH fan that I am] considered FR for a time when it came out. Why? Because the novels produced at the time were excellent (I am talking of the Moonshae trilogy, of course) and because I liked the way the original FR boxed set was published, especially the month by month calendar of "weird" happenings. Now, dozens of novels and gaming accessories later, I am glad I can still fall back to good ol' faithful GH
People play in the Realms because they like the feel of it, the way it works and hangs together, the timbre of its magic, how its characters think and act and talk; I can't begin to sum up what that feel is in a short post. Because they come to love the world through, yes, the novels or the extensive sourcebooks, which are yet a small part of the millions of words of lore lurking unpublished in Ed's boxes. Though it has many of the same influences as the World of Greyhawk, it takes them somewhere different; Ed builds worlds for their own sake -- and posts extensive details about them for free -- whereas Greyhawk is more practically a setting for D&D. There are plenty of people like me who appreciate the sensibilities of both worlds and like to visit one as a break from the other.
1. The ToEE video game was a great success, considering that there were technically better products out the same time. At least video game community became more familiar with WoG for the moment. Surely, people will produce some kind of sequel.
Eh?! Great success huh... care to quote some sales figures? The best received elements were the close implementation of the 3.5e ruleset and graphics. In terms of storyline, NPC characterization, voiceovers, AI, quests, scripted encounters, etc.. I believe it was generally a disappointment amongst players.
The unpatched game is horrendously bugged. While 2 official patches and an unofficial mod pack have made the game a lot more playable, the remaining number of unfixed bugs is still very substantial: http://www.ataricommunity.com/forums/showthread.php?&threadid=388146
In any case from what I've gathered, I think most of the board members here aren't really interested in it and would much prefer PnP (probably playing with older rulesets), not a CRPG rendition no matter how accurate it is to current rules.
I will accept that a minority of the video game community (those who cared to know) became more familiar with WoG for the moment.
A sequel (for example the GDQ series, sporting levels 11-20) using the same engine is nowhere on the horizon I'm afraid despite repeated requests for it. Hell, we even had great difficulty just trying to get another patch out (2nd official patch took really, really long to materialize).
Sorry for the rant, but in short I didn't see ToEE having the same impact as say the BG series when it came to promoting their respective realms (WoG and FR).
Mmmh... yes, I should have asked this question in the FR board, but imagine a Greyhawk player discussing the pros and cons of their setting with them... They'd make me Drider food...
(Hugs the WoG Box he does not yet have
as well)To Faraer:
Thanks, this is was an interesting insight.
To zhuge:
As far as I came to know, the final patched version of the game good very good critics. Surely, it had not the same impact as the FR games, but you have to take into account that there were much more of them out for sale at the same time. (BG, Icewind Dale, Neverwinter Nights and Blood Magic, some years ago)
And at least the Budget version seems to be sold well...
(My video game dealer is one of my eldest friends, at least and he ordered nothing less 150 copies of that game and sold them all in about 1 week! May be subjective, but for a shop in a small town like mine that's quite a lot, I think.)
BTW I think there's a Mod for Neverwinter Nights out there featuring some Greyhawk adventure!
No need for excuses, you were absolutely right.;) I tend to see things more from my personal point of view that is influenced greatly by my direct environment and don't care about numbers and statistics in general.