It seems in recent times that we are being underminded by the sheer villiany of ignorance. It is sad to say but it appears that WoTC is not supporting it's proclaimed default setting, but is rather embracing a new setting all together, Forgotten Realms. Indeed, it does appear that we are being mislead. In the DMG 3.5, does not Red Wizard AND Archmage appear as PrCs? These are strictly Forgotten Realms PrC, yet they appear in a core book, which are supposed to be set in GREYHAWK!
I fear that we Hawkers are being mislead, and that they are merely saying that Greyhawk is the default setting to keep the DND Veterans happy. It seems to me like Forgotten Realms is more of a default setting than Greyhawk is in these times. From what we know RPGA has the Greyhawk setting in their hands, but they are undermanned to accomplish much, and have thus far produced nearly nothing for us. It appears that WoTC is letting Greyhawk die, albiet a slow and painful death, perhaps so they can say it went out because it was not supported by the "fans."
This is not true, and I for one do not want to see this happen. Undoubtably many of you have experienced problems with a group such as my current problem. My group is hardcore Forgotten Realms, simply because they have never experienced anything else. They will not give Greyhawk a chance, because it is "clearly not as good as it is not even really supported like Forgotten Realms is." I am not a Veteran, I only joined with the release of 3rd Edition, so my true knowledge of Greyhawk is limited to the Living Gazetteer and the few morsels of information I have been able to get from various sources. It troubles me because I love Greyhawk as a setting even from the little I have had experience with it, and wish so adamently that there would be more products for it.
I believe we need to push WoTC to support Greyhawk more, and to release more products, or at least have another company do it. This is a wonderful setting, and I would truly hate to see it go because of neglect from WoTC. My question to you, fellow Hawkers, and the question you should ask yourselves is, "What can we do to help perserve Greyhawk?" A petition to WoTC perhaps? Thousands of mail urging them for product support?
Post your thoughts and concerns here. Lets find a way together to have Greyhawk live up to what WoTC claims it to be, the default setting of Dungeons & Dragons. It deserves more importance and attention than it has gotten thus far. Remember that every post counts.
Red Wizard is being included as an example of a campaign specific PrC, so I have no problem with it being included in the revised DMG.
what Bayushi says has some merit, but it should be noted that WotC is at least partialy responsable for the RPGA's inability to proiduce GH products... not long after giving them controlover greyhawk WotC cut the funding that they were giving the RPGA.
::::stepping on Soapbox::::
SO I would like everyone that has a beef with how Wotc does things, to take the matter to where the true source of the problem. HASBRO. Year after year, they drain more and more of the Resources out of Wotc, to help fund the rest of thier FAILING company.
Thank you
:::gets of soapbox::::
As some general comments to your post, WOTC is Responsible to keep it's self alive, and it's people employed. THe RPGA wanted totally control of GH (and they got it).
I just want to say for the record that I know more about the whole Rokugan mess that almost anyone on these boards (see Screen name). I won't go into detail but what I will say is that it is Hasbro's Fault. Shortly before OA was to be released, the call came from Hasbro to Sell L5R to AEG. So yeah it was Totally a Hasbro/ Money thing.
Comments are not ment as any sort of personal attack,
(Ranger REG, if got any questions feel free to drop me an email)
WoTC is not supporting it's proclaimed default setting, but is rather embracing a new setting all together
I love Greyhawk, but since when is FR considered "new?"
So how does toy corporation Hasbro know about AEG and their business?
* ignores the email option *
So how does toy corporation Hasbro know about AEG and their business?
Not going ot go into all the Details here, (this isn't the place for it), But Hasbro is a Billion dollar company, When they buy another company they look into all the details, (who elsa is in the market, who has contracts with the company (such as AEG at the time, SSI [computer games]) ect.
When the order come down to sell, LR5 it was because "it makes money, just not enough".
For the record that almost happend to D&D in general. One CEO from Hasbro (who I believe is gone) was quoted as saying "you make card games, that is what you do, nothing more, nothing less"
* ignores the email option *
So how does toy corporation Hasbro know about AEG and their business?
Not going ot go into all the Details here, (this isn't the place for it), But Hasbro is a Billion dollar company, When they buy another company they look into all the details, (who elsa is in the market, who has contracts with the company (such as AEG at the time, SSI [computer games]) ect.
When the order come down to sell, LR5 it was because "it makes money, just not enough".
For the record that almost happend to D&D in general. One CEO from Hasbro (who I believe is gone) was quoted as saying "you make card games, that is what you do, nothing more, nothing less"
As for Greyhawk, Wizards should already have some kind of plan in place to promote the so-called "default setting" (not just for RPGA), otherwise, they might as well assigned their resources into getting the new setting (based on the Setting Search contest) ready for the 3.5e release, which AFAIK, there is no such product release this year.
As for Greyhawk, Wizards should already have some kind of plan in place to promote the so-called "default setting" (not just for RPGA), otherwise, they might as well assigned their resources into getting the new setting (based on the Setting Search contest) ready for the 3.5e release, which AFAIK, there is no such product release this year.
Not going to post the details anywhere- It's company (an some cases personal) info that the general public just doesn't need to know.
On to your other statement. There are NO plans to ever do any new GH stuff. No matter how much you don't like it or complain (truste me when I say I also hate it) but these are the facts. Deals were made and things were signed. As long as there is Living Greyhawk (and the RPGA) there will be no GH setting book, adventures, or anything else.
If you noticed the Sourge of Worlds (whis is in GH ) doesn't even carry the GH logo.
THe new setting is suppose to be Next summer be release, from what I know. On a side note, how may 'Resources' do you thing WotC has? After 4 rounds of Layoffs I'm just wondering?
I should add, the only way I ever see this changing is if some one buys it off of Wotc, simialr to how the Dragonlance D20, and Rokugan d20 are being done, but the oddws of that happening are slim to none I think.
Originally posted by Bayushi Tai
I should add, the only way I ever see this changing is if some one buys it off of Wotc, simialr to how the Dragonlance D20, and Rokugan d20 are being done, but the oddws of that happening are slim to none I think.
While it's easy to let go of Rokugan/Legend of the Five Rings, I doubt they're willing to let go of Greyhawk in case they find a feasible way to profit from it in the future. IOW, they're going to keep the Greyhawk card close to their vests.
But fluffs - Never -
*I think I got sidetracked*
WotC is just living the American dream, taking the public for all they can. Capitalism at its finest. FR sells better, so that is the setting they will churn out the most accessories for. They brought D&D back from the edge of ruin that TSR let it get to and its lined their pockets, now its time they overflow them.
If we, the "oldies", had weened more of the grommets on Greyhawk instead of ignoring them and letting them learn on their own in the FR fluff world. We wouldn't be getting the brush now. We have only ourselves to thank -*Thanks self*-
WotC will eventually get around to us I'm sure. After all they can't be complete capatalists without taking all our duggets to.
Would it be unheard of if the Living Greyhawkers compile the happenings around Oerth and update the worlds info and publish it? Would that be against copyright laws? If so maybe just compile all the up to date info and post it on the web.
Just a thought
Must run along, I have a drow to hunt.......
Originally posted by Darastrix
Would it be unheard of if the Living Greyhawkers compile the happenings around Oerth and update the worlds info and publish it? Would that be against copyright laws? If so maybe just compile all the up to date info and post it on the web.
Just a thought
Depends on what you mean by "Living Greyhawkers." Anyhoo, it would be a violation of copyright and trademark if such an unauthorized material surfaced for distribution.
Originally posted by Ranger REG
Depends on what you mean by "Living Greyhawkers." Anyhoo, it would be a violation of copyright and trademark if such an unauthorized material surfaced for distribution.
Well, that's his point, though, I think. If whoever runs Living Greyhawk put it out, it probably would NOT be a copyright violation, though, would it?
If Wizards give RPGA a blanket permission to do whatever with the use of the Greyhawk setting, then there is no violation. If Wizards prefer to retain quality control of the IP's use, then RPGA must seek approval first before the material could be release, similar practice when Wizards wishes to release new Star Wars material (must seek Lucasfilm's approval).
My biggest problem with the Forgotten Realms is that it is TOO DETAILED. Why do I want to develop a FR campaign world when the offical information released in the next few months will just contradict everything I've developed up to them.
I'd say let it go. WofTC are not going to be developing Greyhawk any further, so there will be no more official stories or plot lines. There's already a rich history of the world and enough information to understand and develop your own Greyhawk campaign. IOW everything is there already, what more do you want?!?!?!:fight!:
Now granted, I could just ignore any book that would overwrite what I've developed myself.
However, ask yourself, do you really want Greyhawk to be given the same attention as FR? I'm almost more scared of what would happen to it in that case than if it were just neglected as it is right now.
Adding stuff like some more GH specific prestige classes would be great IMO.
Having a hardcover GH book would be nice, but I'd hate it if it was as detailed as the FRCS book.
Part of what makes Greyhawk great is that it's not as vastly detailed as the Realms, and consequently, more adaptable to personal tastes/ideas.
Basically they said with we got 100 people buying fantasy stuff from us, and 40 are buying FR, 20 are buying DL, 15 are buying GH, 10 are buying RL and 5 DS. Then none of them make money. But if you got 100 people buying Fantasy and 85 are buying FR, and 15 don't like the Relams enough to buy it, but are still buying the core books from us, and making up thier own setting, more power to them, (and FR make a money, so we keep our jobs).
It seems that GH is the default setting, because Peter likes Gh and wanted to keep it alive in one form or another, even if they couldn't publish and more books just for GH (and make money). As a sidenote, that seems to be the reasons behind the deal they made with the RPGA, for creative control. Or at least how it was explaind to me. Anyway hope this sheads some light on the subject.
As for FR being the #1 moneymaker, that's because TSR put so much effort into it after Gygax left the company and they're looking for a new campaign setting. Enter Ed Greenwood. A couple years later, 2nd edition was published. While FR is not the default campaign setting for 2e, it was a de facto setting.
Please enlighten me... :D
I don't know what to believe on the Gygax-TSR-WotC mess. I've heard crazy rumors involving drugs, financial mismanagement, etc., etc. I don't particularly believe any of it, but I've never really heard a good story for the turnover, either.
Peter the guy in charge of Wotc at the time, loves D&D (and GH) been playing it since I was a kid. THe people in charge of TSr at the time, were killing it, draining TSR for all the money they coould, and causing bad blood with most of the creative people behind it, Gygax, Hickman, Weis, (the list goes on and on) So TSR was just about done, they had books finished and no money to print them or anything (alternity, return of the 8 ect) and were going down for the finale count, when Peter and Wotc came in bought the company, and went on a campaign to patch things up, with the creative folks (paid passed due royalitys ect- that by law they didn't have to) Put Gygax's name back on D&D ect. But (sigh) all good things must end, Hasbro took over Wotc, and Peter moved on to other things. So the futur isn't looking so bright for Wotc, now we just have to wait and see.
To them, FR is just 'product' and they will load it down with every kind of rubbish that the market will bear.
I would prefer them to stay away from Greyhawk and not ruin it with their greed. Greyhawk is a high-quality setting that demands lots of imagination from DMs and players. I don't want to be spoon-fed a campaign setting.
The excellent 1e and 2e supplements are still downloadable for those who want them. It's not that much trouble to convert them to 3e.
The future of Greyhawk is its Glorious Past!
Originally posted by Damio
I don't want to be spoon-fed a campaign setting.
The excellent 1e and 2e supplements are still downloadable for those who want them. It's not that much trouble to convert them to 3e.
The future of Greyhawk is its Glorious Past!
It would just be nice if all of that old stuff were collected and made more readily available. They wouldn't even have to produce anything new. Just compile the old stuff. How hard would that be?
Originally posted by Huron
After all, its a role-playing fantasy world that you are suppose to develop for yourselves.
My biggest problem with the Forgotten Realms is that it is TOO DETAILED.
But the problem with the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer is that it isn't detailed enough. If I wanted to make up all the details myself, I'd start from scratch. It's just frustrating when all you know are a few names, but not enough details to make use of them. How can I put Heward or Murlynd or Melf Brightflame in my campaign if I don't know anything about them. I could make up the details, but then it's really not Heward or Murlynd or Melf, it's someone else.
Getting back to the idea of collecting all the old material, it's not such a stretch to suggest that the stuff being generated by RPGA for the Living Greyhawk campaign also be collected and made available, either in a book or on the web. All of that stuff has already been distributed to the people playing Living Greyhawk. I don't see any kind of copyright problem in distributing it to those of us who love playing Greyhawk but have no interest in the Living Greyhawk campaign.
Originally posted by Brom Blackforge
It would just be nice if all of that old stuff were collected and made more readily available. They wouldn't even have to produce anything new. Just compile the old stuff. How hard would that be?
If you go here:
http://www.svgames.com/downloads-wotc-adndgrhwk.html
you will find alot of material you can download. OK, it doesn't have everything, and I have heard that some of the modules are pretty crappy, but that is a fair slice of Greyhawk goodness right there.
:D
Greyhawk is the best d&d campaign, i've plyed in all, as a Dm or A players, no comparaison is possible. What is sad today is that Wizards is making the same errors than TSR, and they will publish and publish tons of stupid material for FR in the coming months. And because you cannot make magic out of emptiness and with poor working, they will loose money, as TSR did.
In a few years Hasbro will sell Rpg departement. Maybe someday someone will understand you can sell good and hard worked products in a solid world, not empty pages in an empty world with 25th lvl character...
I hope WoTC will realise their mistake, but i know its too late. But whatever the future will be , The world of Greyhawk, wounded, buried so many times, will still exist. Athirty year old setting won't disapear so easily.
It was this series of novelizations and the fact that TSR/WOTC made the decision to make all future computer games in the FR setting. This caught the attention of the younger gamers, and so the FR became ingrained into thier psyche. Now that these gamers have grown, they go off and purchase FR products because WoTC has been pushing that product harder for all the above reasons. Keep in mind that the returning gamer is not the priority for marketing. The veteran is already familiar with the material. So, marketing focuses on getting the new customer. "Hook em while they're young" You know the kid who's been playing Pokemon or Magic, whos seen the books on the shelves at the local gaming store but thought it was for older kids or curmudgeonly older gamers...He goes and buys a copy of Baldur's Gate or Neverwinter nights. So from then on FR is D&D. He has learned more about this setting, and is comfortable with it.
This is what we have to combat. If we want anything to be produced by anyone for the Greyhawk setting we have to get the younger gamers involved with it. We have to bring them to our tables, and introduce them to the setting as a whole. The PHB is a good start.....the default pantheon will whet their appetite, but it must be reinforced. I have allowed my younger cousins to begin playing in mycampaign. They in turn are beginning to play with thier friends at school and so forth. They are all learning Greyhawk, and I do my best to teach them. This is no short term solution. It'll take a lot of time, but I have begun compiling my own up-to-date Greyhawk Gazateer. When I'm done I'll make sure each of my players have it and know how to use it.
The bottom line is we can squander our time here moaning about it, or we can start reversing the FR indoctrination process. The more people you introduce to the wonders of Greyhawk, the more they will start looking for the information. When they can't find it. They'll ask for it. They won't want to buy the new FR product this month if they can go to a website and DL a perfectly good older supplement for a fraction of the cost, in a world that has so much more potential.
If enough of us start hitting this board we might even get Greyhawk out of the "OTHER WORLDS" section of the boards, and get our own heading like the FR does! That would make me feel better......
Okay, I'm done with my rant.
As far as new updated Greyhawk supplements are concerned, well that takes us back to the base reasoning that Wotc and the RPGA are ineffectual. They are unable to comply, or unwilling. Probably a little of both. As mentioned before the FR is a cash cow. Most new players (Techno has risen above the crowd. ) have been force fed the FR from the beginning. When they purchase the core books the default pantheon confuses them. The don't know that Heironeous is the god of Knights and Chivalry, they're looking for Tyr the god of justice! So the rush out and pick up the FR setting. I have seen it dozens of times since 3e was released.
We Hawkers need to make an effort to at least keep our setting alive. It may not be fresh, but we can use our imagination. When your players are tied up in the whole FR kick, coach them out. We need to stick together and share ideas and materials. There is a lot available for Download, but so much more isn't.
Just a further peice of advice for the new Greyhawk DM. Use what you have. Use it a lot. The default pantheon from the core books, and the Living Greyhawk Gazateer will give you what you need to start. The rest can be searched out on the web!
If the party is exploring a dungeon of an ancient wizard. Tell your players that there are ancient murals on the wall depicting the twin cataclysms, and the great migration. Make the main baddie a Suel lich.....easy enough. Describe an undead creature with a fleshless skull seemingly inflamed with black fire! Make him or her mad with power and lusting for more! Then give him some choice spells, and Magic items, and a Grecko-Roman name! Boom!, your in Greyhawk baby!
An easier way!
The easiest way that I have found is to run your players through thr Return to the Temple of Elemental Evil. This adventure is at it's very core GREYHAWK! Even if the task is daunting, read it. The background info can only be helpful. Take the bits and peices you find most interesting and divide it up. Run it a little at a time, I can't imagine a better starting town than Hommlet. For that matter your stereotypical Inn to start your adventure The Inn of the Welcome Whench!. Make sure to emphasize locations. Like the nearest large city is Verbabonc, and that the Town of Hommlet is convieniently located on the crossroads between Veluna and Celene. Theres plenty of free material for download on the web that defines Verbabonc. PDF maps and a full description for the new DM who needs a head start.
Alrighty then. I'm done with yet another rant!
I hope some of my efforts are useful!
I hope you'll have your players weaned off FR and thirsting for Greyhawk!!
Good luck, and may the Light of Pelor shine upon you!
I would also add that it wont be hard for WotC to publish the great work done by LIVING GREYHAWK. Or maybe they fear it puts into shadows the rest of their products...
Really, to be honest, Tsr, and Wotc, often publish tons of useless and silly supplement or scenario, would someone contrary me?
They may have lost lot of customers cause that, because people often doesn't trust them. When i read some living greyhawk, i see things written by passionnates whoo loves greyahwk, not people who have to write 32 or 48 or 64 pages....
Originally posted by orange was the color...
I have a question. If your fellow gamers are, like yourself, on the young side and lack experience with the setting, what would they have against Greyhawk? Just curious.
Well the first thing to probably mention in response to this is nearly all of my players are both manic and fickle. Feelings can change from happy to sad and mad quite often and easily, and their likes and dislikes change nearly every week lol. Dealing with a group like this and trying to get them to do something different than the norm is quite difficult. I've also seen that some of them have very short attention spans, which doesn't help either....
As far as what they have against Greyhawk, here are some of the things I have heard from them:
"Bleck! Look at the map! Faerun is so much cooler! This is too plain."
"Well FR is more supported and popular so obviously it is better."
"Greyhawk is boring." (Please note they have not played it and thus don't even have place to say this, mind you, Greyhawk is the core setting, so aren't they just saying D&D is boring???)
"It isn't detailed enough."
"The patheon is too small; I don't like any of the gods."
Basically they have been raised on Bob Salvatore and all of the other FR writers (I don't know them because I don't read FR). They have read ALL of the FR books, and have a very vast amount of knowledge of FR. For being around the ages of 18 they pretty much know the FR Campaign book like the back of their hands, yet thats mostly from reading novels, not the actual setting book. Like I said they have grew up and been weened on FR, and I think as far as they could be concerned as a whole FR is D&D.
What I have done is assembled a group of players to play 3.5 when it comes out, set in Greyhawk of course. This group consists of:
my best friend, who has never played D&D before. (But he really wants too.)
my dad, who isn't very experienced but likes to play.
my other good friend, who has only played some of the time with us, but is very passionate about a certain character he plays, and doesn't mind Greyhawk, actually might prefer it.
and one of the players from my other group. He is by far the most knowledged in FR, and the majority of the comments above came from him. Yet still, he is willing to give Greyhawk a fair shot.
The majority of this new group for 3.5 are unexperienced players, which means I'll have an opportunity here to get some more people into Greyhawk. I'm really looking forward to this opportunity.
I think the reason my group is so hardcore-FR is because of what someone in an above post said, that nearly all of the info, all of the world is right there, all prime and ready, so you don't need to be creative with it and make things for it. Unfortunately I think creativity doesn't run very thick through the veins of the group lol. Unless you count me of course! :D
just a few ideas that come to mind.
Right now, I am thinking about scooting the calendar along and saying what is going on as a result.
I am talking about advancing the timeline about 3-5 years and then writing about the current goings ons.
Just thought you would find that interesting if you didn't already know.
For support of Greyhawk, I gather all the freebies, history, etc. that I can from the various Living Greyhawk websites for each region. They have some good stuff on those websites, including power groups in the regions, etc.
For me Tsr/Wotc has a big problem with QUALITY, that's all. They are beginning to sell uselless supplement, has tsr done in the past ( wildenerness and dungeonner survival guide ...
)I don't care if they edit 12 supp per year, i just would like them to publish one or two very good material per year for GH. Ask Roger E.Moore or whoever got sufficient imagination and talent to write it back on paper. Never publish again things like "Dragon mountain" for FR forever, please, never seen such a bad bad extension. Acsk all living greyhawk (14 000) to sign the petition, and all the internet greyhawkers, if it represents money, things would change a bit. BUT ONLY FOR VERY good materials.
If someone can make an HTTP page with a vb or cgi routine for electronic signature, it would accelerate things. ;)
The latest Pool of Radiance game was a disaster, suffering from a plague of bugs on release to a substandard game.
Hopefully Troika (visit their website http://www.troikagames.com) can turn the tide against FR. If the game sells well, it may motivate designers and publishers to make more Greyhawk games, which leads to increased PnP support, which could lead to having a Hasbro/WotC executive think GH could make money.
(Makoma, a good game does not have to have multiplayer. Just take a look at Morrowind)
In other words, our money determines the course of GH. By supporting the items which are being published, in this case a video game, we can set forth a chain of events which give a glimmer of hope for the future of the setting.
Edit: The actual game info site is http://www.greyhawkgame.com/
I just regretted it was not a multiplayer game because multiplayer games often allow more player to discover and talk about a world camplaign set, they create community. But a solo player can be a good start, no problem. ;)
I haven't seen a single advertisement for ToEE, and many people don't know it is even in development. Fewer still know it will be out soon.
Chances are, without (or even with) an effort by Greyhawk fans to promote the game (word of mouth, etc.), it probably will not sell well. Its a shame, since it looks to be an excellent game in the spirit of the original module.
Greyhawk fans! Purchase this game and support your setting! Let the companies know that Greyhawk can make money! (On the flip side, you could stop supporting anything that has to do with FR, and try to inflict a hit to sales, albiet minor, even unnoticeable)
anyone???
I decieded to start this a new thread since this one has been going for a while, and Ididn't know if new people would read far enough into it to get to here. and besides it seem to change the subject of this thread to much
All but one of them were of Oeridian stock the other was of Baklunish decent. They all rolled up characters and picked there classes. One of which wanted to be a priest, no problem. He looked through the FR setting and asked me if he should play a priest of Tymora or Beshaba.
I told him that in this part of the realms they worshiped a version of those deities that they refer too as Istus but that it was tied more towards faith then luck or badluck. Lets just say he bit heavily on the Idea. I also let the party know that Eldath was worshiped as a male deity here called Rao but also added intellect and wisdom to the portfolio.
Well the party was ready, i lead them though several adventure's before they asked me were i got this information on the Forgotten Realms as they could not find it any were. I told them it was a hard to find box set because it had a limited print. Many of them asked if they could get a copy of some player information. I told them that I would slowly release tid bits of this information to them as most of what was in the box set was DM oriented information.
Well many of my players started making coments on the way the gods were perseived here and some of the history that they uncovered they loved it. That is when I showed them the Greyhawk boxed set with the page on the gods.
My players couldn't believe I had tricked them into playing in a Greyhawk setting. But the best part is we haven't play in the Fogotten Realms since.
Firstly, most people who play Greyhawk Love it. For what ever reason it is, we all consider ourselves 'Greyhawkers'. This is the big strength we have our love for Greyhawk.
Then, we have the problem as I see it. We are fragmented and weak.
Greyhawkers are more fragmented and factionalised than any other setting supporters. Its almost as if it was a religion.
There are the 'ultra-orthodox' fans, those who consider anything not written by Gygax (and often Kuntz) to be 'fakehawk'.
There are those who dont like any edition of (A)D&D after 1st Edition, and wont support them.
There are those who hate the 'Ashes Hawk', for what ever reason, and refuse to accept it as 'canon'.
There are those who hate 'Greyhawk98'
and there are those who hate 'Living Greyhawk'.
Well with such a fragmented market can we really blame anyone but ourselves for the response we are getting. The opinions of the 'gygaxians' are well known, as are the 1st Edition Hardliners. If you were thinking about putting a new sourcebook into the market why would you with such a fragmented 'fan' base? especially if one section are saying they would only view it as 'official' and buy it if it was written by one particular person.
Then we have the thing that is almost oxymoronic. We want Greyhawk to be supported, but not over supported as we like the freedom to fill in the gaps without worry of an official sourcebook contradicting it.
Now WOTC is a business. They support what makes money, and drop what doesnt.
What we as Greyhawk fans seem to be asking is that they break this model.
That they provide us with material (a Campaign Sourcebook Hardback etc) because we know it will sell, yet we expect them not to support the line above a certain level because its 'gaps' are one of the things that make greyhawk great.
Sorry Chaps (and Chapesses) but it aint gonna happen. So long as we remain fragmented and contradictory we havnt got a cat in hells chance of getting Greyhawk supported by anything other than the RPGA Network.
While I really do respect everyones opinion, and forums that produce so much froth and even arguements show how much people care, while we are viewed as 'those gygax idolising, post 85 hating Greyhawk fans' then we aint gonna get anywhere or get any supporting product.
Hackone
It is a melting pot of most of the fears and problem we harcore rpg players have our favourite setting.
So, what to do?
In my opinion, there are two ways people always tend to mix up when they are speaking about this matter: First to preserve what has been done AND to make it a new, extremely profitable line.
There is little or no possibility to return Greyhawk to be a major mainstream rpg line, a status that FR and DL have at the moment.
The problem with that mainstream lines is that they have to be constantly updated to give profit.
This leads inevitably to the current situation these lines can be found in:
Dozens, hundreds of books are published and bought by a slowly but constantly decreasing group of devoted players and collectors.
And look, there are the same problems everywhere:
Fans dropping the setting because of too much merchandising.
Errata and contradictions in additional publications.
Too much detailism that leads into chaotical discussion not only on these boards, but on the tablesof most player groups as well.
And most of the hardcore fans get tired of how the setting's intellectual level is lowered to fit in the mainstream adressing to kids and young adolescent (no offense, please). There is no room for older fans left.
Remember Greyhawk at the end of the 80s?
- Quite a similar situation, I think.
So, please, don't try to make Greyhawk a commercial setting again!
To preserve, however, what has been published, I'd personally recommend this:
Make one big core book. Include everything you need to play, i. e. no rules, but names of unique items, spells and prestige classes.
Make an atlas, a map book where you include everything.
Make a dictionary of names and historical devices. Use every source you find.
Keep the newer history general, without dwelling too deep. Give account for the next 200 years.
Such a big Greyhawk encyclopedia as PDF or printed book would attract far more people than a dozen of new modules or a major relaunch would do.
But I doubt that WotC would do that, as it goes against the company's policy and would be such an easy solution that it even could distract players of newer settings from them.
I say, let's make that ourselves!
Put all our wisdom together to make a big Greyhawk encyclopedia and put it on a Greyhawk site like canonfire for free download!
Make it better than the LG Gazzetteer and make it bigger.
How can we do that?
Find somebody who would want to host that enterprise (huhu, canonfire people?) and start writing articles!
Somebody should make list of the Greyhawk Bible's content and then encourage others to follow him/her!
What do you think about that?
The only problem I have with Living Greyhawk (aside from the paperwork you have to do every game session) is that the information that is revealed in the adventures (such as the ethereal invasion of Tehn) is not available. I had to find out what little I could about Tehn here on the board.
If we could get a sourcebook (even a pgf though I hate those) with information on Greyhawk from 591 to 594 CY and beyond, I would be most happy.