Is there anything that stands in the way, canon or flavour-wise which would stand in the way of this character class? After all, we can subsitute the whole "dragon ancestor in the ancient past" with magical rituals using dragon scales or essence.
However, one could tweak it to fit their own game. I don't see a problem with its use with DM approval.
Originally posted by ferratus
I know, I know, but Dragon Disciples are not half-dragons... they are ordinary people that metamorphisize into dragon-like creatures, just like dragonspawn do.
The end result is that they take on the half-dragon template, making them a half-dragon.
Now, there is nothing preventing a person from transforming into a unique type of dragonspawn, or some other dragon-like creature.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
The end result is that they take on the half-dragon template, making them a half-dragon.
Yeah, but the objection to half-dragons is that dragons and humans couldn't breed. Here there is no sex involved. So what's the problem?
Originally posted by ferratus
Yeah, but the objection to half-dragons is that dragons and humans couldn't breed. Here there is no sex involved. So what's the problem?
The problem is that, somewhere in the past of the dragon disciple, he had a dragon ancestor. Remember, the idea behind the dragon disciple is that he is tapping into his latent draconic heritage. So, in essence, one of the dragon disciple's ancestors mated with a dragon.
Now, one can redefine this to where it means something other than having a draconic ancestor. Perhaps the chaotic nature of Wild Sorcery allows someone to transform, and perhaps it requires a ritual with a dragon scale.
Hope that helps.
I don't really see the problem. If we are taking the time to explain how the various prestige classes fit into the dragonlance setting, it takes almost as much room to say "Dragon disciples don't exist" as "Dragon disciples transform through magic rituals using the scales of Krynnish dragons."
I could care less either way. Use them if you want, if not, that's fine too.
To tell you the truth, I find nothing more frustrating than the argument "we haven't seen this before, and therefore we can't do this." As I said, I love variety, and the more roleplaying options I have, the more variety I have. Plus, I know people have ideas about how the setting "should be", but to appeal to everybody you have to be inclusive, and that includes us 3e fans too.
In this case, I had the idea of a dragon disciple named Sammel Kar-Shivas (perhaps Sammel Kar-Gellad now), who served as a leiutenant to Shiver the white dragon in Southern Ergoth. All I want is someone flavourful for my PC's to kill as a stepping stone to greater foes.
They read about Damon Grimwulf, now meet someone who liked a scale on his leg! ;)Originally posted by ferratus
*grumble, grumble* I will ;)
To tell you the truth, I find nothing more frustrating than the argument "we haven't seen this before, and therefore we can't do this."
I find that frustrating too. After all, if there are no new ideas, then how can we have new stories?
As I said, I love variety, and the more roleplaying options I have, the more variety I have. Plus, I know people have ideas about how the setting "should be", but to appeal to everybody you have to be inclusive, and that includes us 3e fans too.
I'm of two minds on this.
In many ways, I'm like you in that I like variety and options. I think there are a lot of things that can be included within Dragonlance - more than what the average person thinks.
At the same time, a world is defined both by what it includes and by its boundaries. For example, one of the things that helps to make DL so special is the lack of orcs and lycanthropes.
You don't want to go too far either way, either. You need options for players to play, while still staying within certain boundaries and keeping world flavor.
Dragonlance is, after all, about balance. ;)
As well, what about the parentage of draconians such as the shapechanging Sivaks? Being polymorphed when they indulge their well-documented lust over human women they might produce normal looking children, yet have a drop of draconic blood in them.
Originally posted by ferratus
I'm incredibly evil, but it just occured to me. What about draconians? Shouldn't they be allowed to take the Dragon disciple prestige class? After all, they've got the dragon ancestor! ;)
Ha! Yeah, I thought of that one once too, but it was explained to me that you couldn't already have the dragon type (or something to that effect).
I could just picture a draconian with 4 wings, or whose wings became larger and stronger. Accent the draconic features to the Nth degree, and you got yourself an ugly critter.
a) Dragon
b) Mounstrous Humanoid
Originally posted by ferratus
Maybe an alternate prestige class could be drawn up, called the "awakened" or "ascended" or something. Basically, the prerequisite would be having the draconian race (like how arcane archers are restricted to elves) and do a 5 level prestige class that basically involves giving draconians breath weapons, large size, frightful presence etc. You don't want to do it all the way of course (because part of the tragedy of draconians is that the good dragons will never get their children back). However, a draconian with a few more nasty abilities can't be a bad thing.
yeah. there have been some stuff like that. i created a monster type called "high draconian" which is a draconian with more 2ed AD&D dragon skills over time. But it was very muchkin. If you want a good example of a template, with some semi-officialness, the old SSI computer games created enchanted draconians. Takhisis basically wanted more control of her troops after the highlords fell upon themselves. so she mutated and enchanted some draconians to be stronger. their death throes were more powerful (meteor swarms instead of fireballs) and like dragonspawn, their master could look through their eyes.
The 2ed AD&D version of enchanted draconians can be viewed. I have a 3eD&D version in the works as a template, but it's been delayed until DLCS comes out.
I don't have a problem with the half-dragon template if used right. I have used that template on a sivak draconian, using the idea that the corruption of the eggs in this batch didn't work as well as hoped, so the draconian was more dragon than draconian.
Originally posted by SweetMeats
In my view (which I'm not trying to force anyone else to go along with) is that the Dragon Disciple PrC doesn't exist. Theres nothing like it in anything DL books or products I've ever seen.
Sure there is, dragon-spawn. Humans who turn into dragonish creatures. A Dragon Disciple would simply be a sorcerer who undergoes the metamorphosis of his own free will. The Dragon Disciple would simply be a variant form of dragonspawn.
Frankly though, there are dozens of ways I could sneak in the "half-dragon" template in through the back door without having dragons and humans screwing. Dragons and magic do play a huge role in the setting after all, so to simply ignore this part leaves a sort of ... hole in the setting, thematically speaking.
Besides, I think it cheapens the tragedy of Gilthanas and Silvara. The whole point was that he couldn't embrace happiness because he couldn't overcome his bitterness towards what Silvara actually was. As well, it kind of puts dragon-human romances into needless repetition of plot if they have to all be tragic.
So I think it is a little silly, and doubt it will survive in Dragonlance's next incarnation. After all, I think the DM's that will follow that restriction for their own home games will be relatively few.
What this does for you is it makes Sammel Kar-Shivas that much more of a frightening foe. What is he? He's not dragon, he's not draconian, he's not spawn, and he's not human. In fact, the PCs have never seen nor heard of anything like him before. It makes the villain that much more interesting, terrifying, and mysterious when he exists -despite- what the rest of the world knows to be "the truth."
This was exactly what Cam was getting at in his article on Idosklepas that was posted on DL.com awhile ago. You can very much have the villain of whatever race as your intended villain, and the setting is kind enough to automatically give you the chance to create a fascinating backstory by letting you know that such a villain -must- be one of a kind.
Originally posted by Andre La Roche
The great thing about rules is that each and every one of them has exceptions. I don't think there's something to be gained by making broad swaths and OK'ing everything under the sun for inclusion in a setting, but at the same time I think it's important to read between the lines and see that when something says "half-dragons are not found on Krynn" what it's -really- saying is that "half-dragons are not naturally/usually found on Krynn."
Agreed. I personally believe that absolutes have a way of causing rifts and feelings of resentment. If you say, "You absolutely cannot play bards (example) in Dragonlance," then you'll still have players saying, "Wanna bet?".
Now, if you were to say, "Bards are not commonly found on the continent of Ansalon, although a few minstrels walk the land," then you still leave room for the option, although you denote that it isn't commonplace.
What this does for you is it makes Sammel Kar-Shivas that much more of a frightening foe. What is he? He's not dragon, he's not draconian, he's not spawn, and he's not human. In fact, the PCs have never seen nor heard of anything like him before. It makes the villain that much more interesting, terrifying, and mysterious when he exists -despite- what the rest of the world knows to be "the truth."
Agreed here as well. It also works for the heroes. Your hero may find that he isn't like other people, and that he has certain talents and special abilities. There's no one else like him, so he wonders if he is alone in the world. Add in a touch of prophecy, and you have a wonderful character to play.
Personally, I think those rare exceptions can do so much to add to one's campaign.
Originally posted by Andre La Roche
What this does for you is it makes Sammel Kar-Shivas that much more of a frightening foe. What is he? He's not dragon, he's not draconian, he's not spawn, and he's not human. In fact, the PCs have never seen nor heard of anything like him before. It makes the villain that much more interesting, terrifying, and mysterious when he exists -despite- what the rest of the world knows to be "the truth."
*chuckles* It isn't that I have any reservations about using it my own home games, or that I'm particularly broken up on not having half-dragons for the stuff I'm working on online. Sammel Kar-Shivas works well as a human minion of Shiver as well.
It is just a criticism of the obvious thematic hole, as I have said. Basically what you are saying is that you play a "dragon-man" (draconian) or a man that has been infused with draconic qualities (dragonspawn) but that you cannot be infused with draconic qualities and become a dragon-man gradually. Ow. Ow. Ow.
Plus, like I've said. There are many "dragonlancy" ways to bring half-dragons into the mix, simply because dragons have played such a prominent role in the setting.
Dragonspawn variant: Most plausible scenerio, especially since you can then use the dragon disciples. I could see metallic half-dragon (spawn) and dragon disciples living on the dragon isles for example, or brass half-dragon(spawn) as a the elite troops belonging to Iyesta.
Divine Champion: Paladine and Takhisis, both being draconic dieties, would be excellent candidates for bestowing a "dragon" blessing on some of their most devout champions. Hmm... I wonder what a "platinum" half-dragon would look like.
Magical Item: The Heart of Dracart can split up draconians and create lesser versions of them. Perhaps another magical item, developed by the dragonarmies before their collapse did the same to adult dragons. Used as a weapon in the fall of Nereka against traitorous chromatics and enemy metallics alike, half-dragons wander bereft, mourning their own lost majesty. Or you could have a magical item that simply changes humans into half-dragons.
Magical Rituals: Sort of like a divine disciple, only with a ritual that you spend XP on. See Savage Species for rule mechanics.
See... thematic hole. Notice that these do not exist as completely independent of the setting, but rather take what is already there to its next logical step in applying it to the half-dragon problem.
Originally posted by Amaron Blackthorn
1/2 dragons are not possible in Krynn.
Of course they are, you just need a big enough sword.
~~~
Ah well, it should have been locked in the first place, anyway.
Originally posted by Andre La Roche
I think it's funny that this thread has become active again just one day short of a year after the last post in it initially.
Naw, I thought it was more funny looking at a post by Weldon Chen, practically jumping out of my seat, and then reading the date.
Originally posted by Daedavias
Naw, I thought it was more funny looking at a post by Weldon Chen, practically jumping out of my seat, and then reading the date.
Heh. Well, I still read the forums. I've been too busy with work to really respond to forums. Besides, as a Dragonlance Canonite, I just choose not to reply to fan generated material because it's non-canon.
:D :D
It's quite a shame. Some of it should be scooped up as official like Kipper's Kender Handbook.
Originally posted by miclops77
Of course they are, you just need a big enough sword.
Miclops, Miclops, my young inexperienced Miclops, have you never read the LEGEND OF HUMA?
What makes the story so tragic is that the love these two had, Huma and the Silver Dragon was that they could never express their love in a fruitful way, this is why the Silver Dragon was offerred the ability to become human so that there love could be expressed in this way. However, they both died. If half dragons were possible in Krynn there would have been no need for her and Huma to even consider the other option.
by 'big enough sword', miclops is saying that you can have a half dragon by chopping through a whole one =)
Originally posted by talinthas
[b]i think its time you learned to read, amaron.
Some one sounds angry. Dont you think I know that? I was using it as a teaching moment. Not that it is any of your concern.
"Is that a lance on your dragon, or are just happy to see me?"
Originally posted by Serena DarkMyst
Oh Nine Hells......It was a joke! Anyhow...isn't this thread like a year old?
Right. Amaron's on a thread necromancy kick this week.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
Right. Amaron's on a thread necromancy kick this week.
Cheers,
Cam
Hey I dont wear the black robes for nothing!
Originally posted by talinthas
i think its time you learned to read, amaron.
by 'big enough sword', miclops is saying that you can have a half dragon by chopping through a whole one =)
Im sure he knows that, I just think hes trying to pick on me.:sad:
--Drake