Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jun 26, 2003 22:36:08	Hee hee... 3.5 has a Mystic Theurge that casts cleric and wizard castor levels... How about making a Psychic Theurge with psionic and wizard manifestation/spell caster levels?
#2 zombiegleemax Jun 27, 2003 9:37:06	Sounds like a dragon to me. =)
#3 Shei-Nad Jun 27, 2003 13:24:33	Is that a base class???
#4 zombiegleemax Jun 27, 2003 14:09:54	Its one of the new PrCs to be detailed in the 3.5 DMG. You can get the stats for it here. I still haven't had a chance to really look it over myself but this fellow appears to be causing more rants than the whole 3.5 revision itself.
#5 zombiegleemax Jun 27, 2003 23:18:27	Yup Halabis, looks like someone on the road to be an advanced being. A mystic psion could exist too, to cover those elemental types. Unless I'm mistaken.
#6 zombiegleemax Jun 27, 2003 23:29:52	I'd wait and see what WOTC does with the revised psionic handbook next april (uh . . . that's too long to wait . . . hurry up WOTC, get the damn thing out sooner!)
#7 nytcrawlr Jun 28, 2003 21:18:17	Eh? Thought they were just doing a web enhancement for PsiHb 3.5? I'm thrilled if they are doing more, but yeah, April is too damn long to wait.
#8 zombiegleemax Jun 29, 2003 0:23:57	Check out the product release schedule at EnWorld . Its listed as the last release. Also, work must have already started on it and then some since its very rare for WOTC to post about things that far in advance. Oftentimes the only notice about a product comes 3 or 4 months in advance. Odd. Anyhow, I doubt that they would charge for just a PDF download update or that such a download up updates would take nine months to complete. In several of the interviews about 3.5, various members of WOTC were asked about a Psi Handbook update and were quoted as saying "We can't release information about a product that is not on our release schedule." That pretty much says to me "Talk to me next month about it." in a way. Hence, we're lookin at a new psi book. Hopefully a better and not just an updated one. This local newscast was brought to you by MACH, reporting your DS news every hour, on the hour. Next up, weather by Willy Shine followed by a sports update. Stay tuned ;)
#9 nytcrawlr Jun 29, 2003 7:30:31	Well that's some good news then. Hopefully they get the scaling rules and some of the other stuff like Mindscapes that BRC did in there.
#10 player1 Jun 29, 2003 9:20:00	How about making a Psychic Theurge with psionic and wizard manifestation/spell caster levels? You asked for it: PrC: Psychic Mage (Mystic Theurge in psionic way) DISCLAIMER: This prestige class is made to mimic Mystic Theurge PrC. So in effect, it would be as much balanced as Mystic Theurge PrC itself. Psychic Mages Characters who use both psionics and arcane magic Hit Die: d4. Requirements To qualify to become a psychic mage, a character must fulfill all the following criteria. Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 6 ranks, Knowledge (psionics) 6 ranks. Spells: Able to cast 2nd-level arcane spells and manifest 2nd-level psionic powers. Class Skills The psychic mage's class skills (and the key ability for each skill) are Concentration (Con), Craft (Int), Knowledge (arcana) (Int), Knowledge (psionics) (Int), Profession (Wis), and Spellcraft/Psicraft (Int). See Chapter 4 of the Player's Handbook for skill descriptions. Skill Points at Each Level: 2 + Int modifier. Class Features All of the following are features of the psychic mage prestige class. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Psychic mages gain no proficiency with any weapon or armor. Spells and Powers: When a new psychic mage level is gained, the character gains new spells per day as if she had also gained a level in any one arcane spellcasting class she belonged to before she added the prestige class and gains new powers and power points per day as if she had also gained a level in any one psionic class she belonged to previously. She does not, however, gain any other benefit a character that class would have gained (bonus metamagic or item creation feats, better psicrystal abilities, and so on). This essentially means that she adds the level of psychic mage to the level of whatever other arcane spellcasting class and psionic class the character has, then determines powers gained, spells and power points per day and caster and manifester levels accordingly. For example, a 4th-level psionc/3rd-level wizard who takes a level in psychic mage has the same access to spells and powers as a 5th-level psion and a 4th-level wizard. But her psicrystal and wizard familiar won't gain any new abilities. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class or more than one psionic class before she became a psychic mage, she must decide to which class she adds each level of psychic mage for the purpose of determining spells and power points per day. 0-Level Powers: Psychic mage levels count toward the level of the psionic character for determining the number of free manifestations per day or your 0-level powers. Psionic Combat: Psychic mages discover psionic attack and defense modes as though the character were a psychic warrior of the same level as the prestige class. (Characters do not forget previously discovered attack and defense modes.)
#11 Shei-Nad Jun 30, 2003 0:42:53	Hey guys, even though this doesn't seem to be, it is a major thing. The Champions originally were dual classed 20th level wizard/20th level psionicists. In 3e, as humans may freely multiclass, one could have thought that Advanced beings could have required one to be an Epic level character with around 20 levels in both classes. Or, based on requirements for an archmage, an Advanced Being Prestige class could have required a large amount of Spellcraft and Psicraft ranks, knowledge arcana and psionics ranks, and the ability to cast 9th level arcane spells and manifest 9th level psioinic powers. That would mean you could pick up that epic prestige class at Wiz 17th / Psi 18th level or so. However, if these requirements are used, the introduction of this type of prestige class really soften those requirements. However, as there are only 10 levels in that prestige class, the character would still need at least to be an epic level character (since you would need 10 levels of that prestige class and at least 7 levels of wizard and 8 of psion to be able to meet the prerequisites I stated). I think this is a really good thing. Advanced beings are clearly translated as epic characters. However, requiring them to go through 40 base class levels is a bit much. Or a lot much :D. This class would have them be just above 20th level, a little like the Elven High Mage epic prestige class. Also, source material clearly show that powerful villans, and some heroes, progress rapidly both as wizards and psions. All the champions of Rajaat have done so, after being described as wizards who were also powerful mindbenders (psions). Tithian does the same after the death of Kalak, and Agis talks about him progressing rapidly. So I think this prestige is a must. Also, it really embraces the feel of Athas, as a divine/arcane spellcaster prestige class would really not work out well! Now, some nitpicking: Psychic Mage sounds ok, but it doesn't sound Dark Sun. I'll try to read up on the descriptions of the Champions, the birth of magic, the cleansing wars, and descriptions of advanced beings to see if they could have a nickname or description which would fit better.
#12 zombiegleemax Jun 30, 2003 2:46:24	Still have to work out as either a defiler or preserver, otherwise, seems to be okay. Yup, needs a name change. Maybe a stepping stone on the path to becoming an advanced being, but surely not the whole path.
#13 player1 Jun 30, 2003 3:50:01	Originally posted by Shei-Nad Now, some nitpicking: Psychic Mage sounds ok, but it doesn't sound Dark Sun. I'll try to read up on the descriptions of the Champions, the birth of magic, the cleansing wars, and descriptions of advanced beings to see if they could have a nickname or description which would fit better. Well I just made cut-paste port of MT. It sure needs more DS flavor.
#14 Shei-Nad Jun 30, 2003 9:56:56	Just one thing though. Note that this prestige class (the "Psychic Mage) would have slightly higher requirements since psions get to manifest 2nd level powers at 4th level, not at 3rd.
#15 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jun 30, 2003 12:13:21	The 20 levels thingie doesn't mesh with d20, as having one of a prestige class' requirements be a number of levels in another class is a "Bad Thing (tm)". However, when I sketched up for my campaign an idea on the dragon & avangion prestige classes, I decided I wanted to also make sure that people who go the way of the Psychic Warrior could potentially choose the PrC's (I personally feel that Hamanu & Borys (as well as Myron) were Defiler/PsyWar, not Psion - which is why they, out of the champions, were given special weapons by Rajaat). I made the requirement "ability to gather energy for a 9th level spell as a defiler (or preserver for avangion); ability to manifest 5th-level powers" I also altered the two so that any humanoid (and half-giant as well) could attempt to go through the changes - I had the size changes all be based off of the character's original height & weight - a halfling going through the process would make a smaller dragon, which a half-giant would make a larger one - of course, they are unheard of eother way - human Defilers keep these secrets to themselves.
#16 Shei-Nad Jun 30, 2003 15:44:32	In my opinion, the prerequisites for the "advanced being" prestige class should be: Race: Human Spells: Able to cast 9th level arcane spells Powers: Able to manifest 9th level psionic powers Skills: Knowledge (arcana) 20 ranks, Knowledge (psionics) 20 ranks, Psicraft 20 ranks, Spellcraft 20 ranks That would be with a "Psychic Mage" Prestige class (ARGH! I want another name for that one!!!) which would allow a Wiz/Psi8/PsM10 to pick up that class (at 25th level, clearly an epic character). Other combinations would be possible, with higher levels, but psychic warriors could not meet those requirements by themselves, as they cap at 6th level for powers. However, I don't feel that the "warrior" champions were really psychic warrior. A psychic warrior is someone who uses mental powers to augment his fighting abilities, to become the ultimate warrior (not the wrestler! ;)) Hamanu is certainly a warrior-king, but I see that as fighter levels, not psychic warrior levels. He is a psionically gifted fighter which has trained in the arcane arts and in the way. Just my opinion anyways. Besides, I think 6th level powers would be too low for the Psionic Enchantements of the dragon kings... On the race requirements (only humans) I don't think that any other race save human should be able to become advanced beings. There is a very important reason for this in the very fabric of Dark Sun. Rajaat chose humans as his champions. There was a reason for that. A very important one too, as he intended to annihilate humans as well, but he needed them as his champions to bring back the hegemony of the halflings. Now, if he could have made halflings his champions, he would have. Humans would not have been selected, and they would have probably been the target of the warbringer. The original material suggests that halflings were not selected because they could not cast spells, however, the Prism Pentad has halfling cast as wizards. Also, D&D is against racial discrimination on base classes, which I think is a good thing, but not in Prestige classes (Arcane Archer, Dwarven Defender...). Also, in 2e, though halflings could not cast spells, elves and half-elves could. humans were said to be selected because of their potential in magic. In 2e, this was represented by unlimited levels in wizard and psionicist classes (though all races had unlimited psionicist level caps). Other than that, humans had little advantage, espcially since the elves had a +1 bonus to intelligence. This no longer exists in 3e, replaced by the favored class system (which doesn't really hinder someone who multiclasses as long as his levels rise together, as wizard/psion would). Humans do have the advantage of the extra feat and skill points, but its not a significant advantage in magic, nor would it explain why humans alone were selected as champions for Rajaat, especially is halfling could become advanced beings. Also, since all sorcerer kings are humans, and because humans are the predominant race of the Tyr Region (because they were spared by the Cleansing wars, which I might add makes Dark Sun the only setting which actually has a good reason for humans ruling the world...), humans need to be the only ones who can take up this epic prestige class, as that reality defines the setting of Dark Sun
#17 zombiegleemax Jul 01, 2003 6:33:13	If you backspan 3e, some of the rational for Rajaat not using halflings is lost, hence, you need to either a: back up Rajaat's reasoning with mechanics (no halfling wizards, bad idea), or b: come up with a different reasoning that is supported by the mechanics (Rajaat wanted to give the world to the halflings, not let them get nearly killed off in a genocidal war). The Champions led their human allies and armies throughout the Clensing Wars. Even with their augmented abilities, it probably wasn't overly easy. Losses on the sides of the Champions were probably still quite vast in number. Doing this would just make Rajaat's clensing of the humans that much easier since he would really only have to contend with the Champions themselves and what little they had left in the way of troops (even though, in the end, Rajaat underestimated the tenacity of humanity and was imprisoned . . . or was that part of his plan all along . . .). Its rather like 3 people are about to get into a fight. 2 begin to go at it while the 3rd sits back and watches. Once one of the 2 innitial fighters go down, then the 3rd jumps in fresh to take on the weakened opponent. Rajaat was the 3rd fighter, waiting for humanity to exhaust itself. Rajaat, the Warbringer, the Last Champion, Humanity's Demise. I like the idea of no longer limiting the advanced beings to only humans and half-elves. Becoming an Advanced Being takes special knowledge of the metamorphosis stages or spells or whatever. The reason why no other races have become advanced beings is that the knowledge was given by Rajaat to the Champions. The Champions (all human) are the only beings who know the secret and only one person has ever given that knowledge out to anyone else (Oronis to Korgunard) and even that was only 1 time (at least, that we know of, I'm neglecting a rumor in Defilers and Preservers since its presented as a rumor only and a certian rather lame adventure *coughBlackFlamescough*). Perhaps Oronis will dole out the secret to a member of another race to try. Perhaps he too learned tid bits from the texts of ancient thri-kreen who were the first to develope the avangion metamorphosis (rumor). Also, to my knoweldge, no one has actually attempted (officially) the elemental metamorphosis. Maybe that's something that will first be tried by a dwarf or halfling, or (may the elemental lords spare us) . . . a tari ;)
#18 nytcrawlr Jul 01, 2003 10:16:20	Aww, I liked Black Flames. I agree with you that I don't think the avangion/dragon/elemetal advanced being templates/PrCs and such should be limited to humans only, especially in this edition.
#19 Shei-Nad Jul 01, 2003 23:56:54	I never thought of the champions armies as being human armies. Mercenaries aren't picky for ideological fights. Dwarves could have been hired to fight elves by Androphinis even as Borys was hiring elves to lay the dwarven realms to waste. Also, undead soldiers were probably had probably an important role in the Cleansing Armies, as denoted by the many "undead armies" links to defiling. Anyhow, while I do believe your rationale could be used, I still don't think it accurately reflects the setting and the supremacy of humans on Athas and in wizardly magic. I have my conversion allow the Arcane Prodigy feat only to humans. I still think Advanced beings should be available only to humans, at least the arcane ones. I don't know about the divine ones yet. Anyhow, we're dwelling on epic prestige classes here... Not really a very important issue right now...
#20 zombiegleemax Jul 02, 2003 2:20:03	Anyhow, we're dwelling on epic prestige classes here... Not really a very important issue right now... True, especially since I still haven't picked up the ELH yet Damn OGL! Now there's too many awesome books to buy and not enough money in the bank Anyhow, although I do understand and somewhat agree that flavor must be maintained, I still like more freedom (hail the halfling wizard!). Even with most PrCs that I've decided to allow, those that are racially exclusive I've re-tooled slightly to allow any race access to. I've only come across one, perhaps two exceptions that just woulnd't work out. Maintain flavor and consitancy, or maintain freedom and flexibility. Always a tradeoff.
#21 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jul 02, 2003 10:55:28	Originally posted by Shei-Nad However, I don't feel that the "warrior" champions were really psychic warrior. A psychic warrior is someone who uses mental powers to augment his fighting abilities, to become the ultimate warrior (not the wrestler! ;)) Hamanu is certainly a warrior-king, but I see that as fighter levels, not psychic warrior levels. He is a psionically gifted fighter which has trained in the arcane arts and in the way. Just my opinion anyways. Besides, I think 6th level powers would be too low for the Psionic Enchantements of the dragon kings... [/b] While I can see what you're saying, and I almost did 9th-level powers instead of 5th/6th, I decided lowering the power level requirement after having a past discussion with Brax (I think) over advanced beings, and he lodged the idea that the magic was really the important aspect of the two "power sources" of an advanced being, while psionics are more of a "transport system" or "assistance" to it, granting psionic enchantments. If you look at the epic-level handbook's example epic-level spells, they are a bit more powerful (and impressive) than the psionic enchantments. I saw psionics as a vehicle that when combined with powerful arcane energies (and in the case of dragons, orbs of obsidian) allows for the distorted spell/powers of advanced beings. Also, I didn't think it would make much sense to force a wizard/psion to take 18-20 levels in both classes, since there's little difference between a wizard & psion come epic levels. The psionic mage PrC modelled after the mystic theurge sounds cool, but as I'm not too thrilled with the Mystic Theurge as a class anyway - but that's a different story. Plus I had developed my advanced being PrC's before it ever showed up on WotC's site. I do like the idea that Hamanu & Borys are Psychic Warriors as I have them going currently, as they both were warriors, which could have been levels in fighter & psion, but as the psychic warrior is a mix of psion and fighter anyway, and as I already explained above, psionics really (IMHO) are a means to an end, not needing level 9 powers, just needing something to assist with the arcane magics. The psychic Warrior didn't exist at all in 2nd Edition, but it seems so perfect for those two Champions. But you're right, we're arguing over epic PrC's, which aren't important to DS3E development at this time.