Monster Summoning - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Monster Summoning

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
kobe
Jun 27, 2003 20:49:17 Has anyone looked to change the Monster Summoning spells
to match the Dark Sun beastiary?
I think this is very important for DS3
#2
star_gazer_02
Jun 30, 2003 5:04:52 I happen to agree w/ you completely. I have reworked the Summon Monster 1-9 spell lists, complete with appropriate athasian templates, I just need to know who to send them to.
#3
zombiegleemax
Jun 30, 2003 6:02:59 Post it up here. Flip, Gab, or Nyt will see it and direct it should they need to.
#4
xlorepdarkhelm_dup
Jun 30, 2003 13:44:58 Just a little suggestion: Instead of fiendish/celestial creatures, I use elemental, shadow (black) & ethereal (gray). I don't allow the summoning of Fiends or Celestials (outsiders) in my Athas, as the gray is supposed to stop such planar travel through it. I also tend to apply some of the Savage Species templates, like insectile & reptilian, plus the psionic creature template does wonders as well - my spellcasters summon up some really odd things.
#5
zombiegleemax
Jun 30, 2003 17:50:24 I use fiends alot, especially Yugoloths. My rational, especially since in the cosmology I use Athas is 100% cut off from the generic outer planes is that they come from a planar region that the PCs (or anyone else) has yet to discover. I also add more of a Far Realm/Cthuluesque description to them, so that the PCs never realize that the wierd horned instects that just wupped their butts were really mezzoloths. I ditched celestials though. Too many goodie-2-shoes powers to come from the Far Realm (or its DS equivalent). Other outsiders that can't be lumped into 'twisted fiends', denizen of the elemental planes, the grey, or the black, got mostly ditched as well.
#6
star_gazer_02
Jun 30, 2003 18:16:25 I'm going to post my revision in this thread in a day or so, I need to migrate it from windoze to linux, along w/ about a billion other things. My rational for the templates was, going into the project, this: Summoning spells, in light of the fact that athas is 'cut off' from standard dnd cosmology, actually call creatures from elsewhere on Athas. There are lots of insects, a few plants (think minefields) for the preservers - a whimsical addition on my part that ended up adding boatloads of flavor to the spell and to the world view in general - and the template is multi-faceted so that one template suffices to cover most of what people will see in the athasian wilds. It has provisions for chameleon like abilities or minor damage reduction or fast healing, among others, with different appelations for each ability. IOW, it's modular, just because there's no reason whatsoever to have 97 different templates for only one basic change in each. Why no grey and black templated creatures? Two reasons, actually:

(1) Keeping the grey and the black out of the spell lets it be used unchanged for priests and druids. This was the primary concern. The spell effectively duplicates Call Nature's Ally. Para-elemental priests, being interested in the failure of the Athasian ecosystem, cannot summon the plants on the list, just like defilers. The spell, for all spellcasters, allows communication w/ the summoned animal, the price for which is that the spell, when you cast it is now 'attuned' to that animal and woe be unto you if you let it die (IOW you summon an individual creature IAW the DMG section on summoning spells)

(2) I have left the Grey and the Black alone because I wanted to see if there wasn't enough interest to do a Supplement for them. Besides, I think it works better, flavor-wise, to separate out spells that deal w/ the planes of athas, those should be extremely rare and should be cause for much wonderment and confusion from the wizardly ranks.

Phew. I'm done.

Star Gazer
#7
kobe
Jun 30, 2003 18:30:06 Alright thats great news Star Gazer, cant wait to see
the lists.
#8
nytcrawlr
Jun 30, 2003 22:05:51 Stargazer, in case you didn't know, I've already done templates based on the black and the gray, also did one called Defiled.

Templates
#9
star_gazer_02
Jul 01, 2003 4:30:16 Nyt: Mechanics-wise, that should be pretty easy... flavor wise, I dunno if it fits too well. I'm all for staying away from Wizards being able to easily summon creatures from the Grey or the Black until we get definite answers on a couple of things:

(1) What are the grey and the black like.

(2) And how do spellcasters access these planes? Prestige Classes? Feats? No change needed? Spells?

Is the Overcouncil planning on ignoring D&P? IMO that's not such a bad idea. There's nothing anywhere that states that we have to adapt every single book ever produced for DS, not to mention that the OC has already made it a policy that they are going after the flavor presented in the novels anyway. Should non Shadow-Mages even be able to touch the grey? And what about the black? Is it access restricted, or is that just the Hollow? What are the Grey and the Black? What would a visitor see there? What are the effects of a G/B creature visiting the prime plane of Athas?

It's a simple matter to add creatures to a list, but a rather harder matter to take them off of one, not least because not everyone is going to get that memo.

Until I've recieved some definite guidance on the issue, I would much, much rather have the Summon Monster spells summon only 'naturally occuring' athasian monsters and tackle other-planar monsters more throughly in another set of spells or even a whole supplement (something I would really, really like to see). The mechanics of the situation are easy, the flavor of it isn't.

Did that make any sense to anyone but me?
#10
zombiegleemax
Jul 01, 2003 6:19:53 Makes alot of sense to me Star.

I think the basic monster summoning spells should focus on basic monsters to summon. Summoning things from the grey (undead) and the black (shadow?) should be left ot more specific or specialized summoning spells, ones that target a specific creature (i.e. summon shadow thingie, or summon big nasty undead from the grey IV, you get the point). The general monster summonings should not summon outsiders/extraplanar or whatever the current type modifier is for something not native.

Btw, is there anything chunked up or concrete about what the Black is really like? I've got my own version, but I'm curious as to the 'official view'. I liked what Terrors of the Dead Lands presented for the Grey, now I'm itchin for a new perspective on the Black.
#11
nytcrawlr
Jul 01, 2003 10:13:42 The black = the shadow plane of other worlds but is cold.

That's about it.

The gray resembles the negative plan of other worlds but isn't cold and works a bit differently, if that makes any sense. I think what is already in TotDL for the gray is staying, though I'm not 100% on that.

You have to take a feat in order to use energy from the Black/Gray/Cerulean to cast your spells with, PrCs can be taken later to amplify this. Jon did a great system on this that I think we are going to use.

The templates I created are not for summoning creatures, though they could be, they were basically created to fill in some gaps since DS doesn't have many templates that aren't undead releated. Hence why I didn't add that in the flavor text.

Got a few more ideas I'm going to brew up, like para-elemental and a few others I don't have names for yet, then going to list what already existing templates can be used, like half-elemental, elemental, and so on.
#12
Kamelion
Jul 02, 2003 1:10:37
You have to take a feat in order to use energy from the Black/Gray/Cerulean to cast your spells with, PrCs can be taken later to amplify this. Jon did a great system on this that I think we are going to use.

Nyt, good to hear that the Alternate Wizards might make into the Core set-up. Has there been a decision on which version would be used? The initial version allowed you to take the "x-casting" feats, followed by the PrCl, but the revised version had the PrCl as a prerequisite for the feat - the other way around. Which do you guys plan on using?
#13
star_gazer_02
Jul 02, 2003 6:32:33 AFAIK, PrCs aren't going to be in the core docs. Which is just fine w/ me, I want them OUT...

Question: other than the templates I'm developing, would anyone be interested in a list of acceptible templates from other sources? Like SS, MotP, MM2, &c. I'm going to create one for my own use, but I would love to hear what ideas other people have.

In other words, what kind of oddities would people like to see in a summon monster list?
#14
wintergreen
Jul 02, 2003 6:42:41 So with the atrenative wizars (cerulean, shadow, etc) is the system going to be thta in order to cast spells using the different energy/casting in a different way from normal defiling that you have to have a certain feat? If so, sounds like an interesting mechanic though I seem to recall some people objecting to such a system>;)
#15
nytcrawlr
Jul 02, 2003 10:34:32
Originally posted by Kamelion
Nyt, good to hear that the Alternate Wizards might make into the Core set-up. Has there been a decision on which version would be used? The initial version allowed you to take the "x-casting" feats, followed by the PrCl, but the revised version had the PrCl as a prerequisite for the feat - the other way around. Which do you guys plan on using?

Doh, forgot about that change.

It will be the latter, unless we can get a few people to change their mind. That's the consensus so far.
#16
nytcrawlr
Jul 02, 2003 10:36:40
Originally posted by Star Gazer
AFAIK, PrCs aren't going to be in the core docs. Which is just fine w/ me, I want them OUT...

Never said they would be. They will be in a different suppliment.

Question: other than the templates I'm developing, would anyone be interested in a list of acceptible templates from other sources? Like SS, MotP, MM2, &c. I'm going to create one for my own use, but I would love to hear what ideas other people have.

That's pretty much what I'm doing for ToA.
#17
zombiegleemax
Jul 03, 2003 10:43:46
Originally posted by Wintergreen
So with the atrenative wizars (cerulean, shadow, etc) is the system going to be thta in order to cast spells using the different energy/casting in a different way from normal defiling that you have to have a certain feat? If so, sounds like an interesting mechanic though I seem to recall some people objecting to such a system>;)

Wintergreen won, fatality... That's a nice question I also would like to hear to be answered, especially after the much rejection to this idea in the case of defilers and preservers (with 'debated to death already' reasons, and without any logical answer...)
#18
nytcrawlr
Jul 03, 2003 11:24:52 Scroll up, I've already answered it.

The reasons for not using a feat for preserving have been answered numerous times as well. Do a little searching on the old boards.
#19
wintergreen
Jul 04, 2003 6:54:00 " The reasons for not using a feat for preserving have been answered numerous times as well. Do a little searching on the old boards."

I think we're aware of that Nyt. The question is, how come such reasons don't apply to using a feat for other spellcasters?
From what you say, it sounds like there's still some debate in the senate about whether or not they'll be get the feat and then the PrC or get the PrC and then the feats. If so, then how come the reasons given in the preserver and defiler case don't apply and settle the debate?
#20
star_gazer_02
Jul 04, 2003 8:33:04

From what you say, it sounds like there's still some debate in the senate about whether or not they'll be get the feat and then the PrC or get the PrC and then the feats. If so, then how come the reasons given in the preserver and defiler case don't apply and settle the debate?

Well, I can give you my perspective on the issue:

I) In FR you have two different types of Wizards:
A) those who use the Weave, the standard Wizard
B) those who use the Shadow Weave, a Wizard /w a different 'power source'.

II) To access the different power source, you need to spend a feat, first, which gives you access to the power, and only then are you eligible for the PrC, of course, you could take the feat at the same time you take the PrC, as there is no 'order of events' to follow.

III) Now, in DS we have the following situation:

A) Two different types of Wizard that
i) use the same power source
B) Potentially 4 different power sources
i) The Sun
ii) The Cerulean Storm
iii) The Black
and I would add, just because I think undead are cool,
iv) The Grey

It would seem to me that Sections I (A & B) map directly onto sections III (A & B), with the only difference being that in DS you have more choices. The precedence was set by FR and to make things simple for people to understand I would use it.

There's only one problem w/ this scenario though, not being dependent on plant life can be a HUGE advantage, so each power source should have it's own fluctuation tables, ala a Sun mage being less powerful at night. Doing this lets people take the feat at character creation which simulates quite nicely an apprentice being taught from the get go to not use the plant life around her. As long as you avoid making an alternate power feat a no-brainer, then there should be no problems w/ allowing the feat to be taken before taking a PrC.
#21
wintergreen
Jul 04, 2003 9:28:33 I was wondering, does making the alternative wizards into prestige classes get round the restriction/requirement that the athasian wizard be usable in other campaign settings?

[I don't know if the FR developers were under that restriction because Weave and Shadow Weave are obviously campaing setting specific magic systems and from what I've read of the FR rules you just need a feat to use the Shadow Weave, you don't have to have levels in a specific Prestige Class and having taken the Shadow Weave feat the mage is then unable to use the Weave. Is that correct? I was also unsure if the Shadow Weave really is completely different from the Weave or just the 'darker' side of it so making it more similar to distinguishing between Preservers and Defilers.]
#22
nytcrawlr
Jul 04, 2003 15:09:31
Originally posted by Wintergreen
I think we're aware of that Nyt. The question is, how come such reasons don't apply to using a feat for other spellcasters?
From what you say, it sounds like there's still some debate in the senate about whether or not they'll be get the feat and then the PrC or get the PrC and then the feats. If so, then how come the reasons given in the preserver and defiler case don't apply and settle the debate?

Again, I've already answered this.

We are not using feat + PrC, we are using PrC gains abilities of feat within the PrC.

It was my bad for not realizing this first, I thought we were still using the former, but I've cleared that up now.

The answer to all of your questions
#23
jon_oracle_of_athas
Jul 05, 2003 5:31:42 To supplement, there are still three feats, one for each alternative wizard (i.e. energy source) ala the Path Sinister and Path Dexter feats, but they affect spells with certain descriptors rather than certain schools. These feats are optional, not mandatory.

http://darksun.3sins.com/3e/3e_wizards.htm

If someone could do me a favor - check if there actually are two spells at each level that can be selected with each feat, and e-mail me the result - I'd appreciate it. athas[at]online.no

Btw, there will be a cerulean wizard in the adventure "Whispers of the Storm".
#24
star_gazer_02
Jul 21, 2003 15:41:04 Ok, sorry for the delay... migrating sux.
This is a catchall for the spell, no need to write the level one spell and then 8 copies telling you to go read the first spell. This spell replaces summon nature's ally for the druid as well. I know the CR's for the higher level spells are off, but as I gather more info on Athasian monsters, I will adjust them up to their proper levels. The spell is a little harsh, but then again, so is Athas... here you go:

Summon Monster I-IX
Conjuration (Summoning) [see text]
Level: Clr1-9, Drd 1-9, Wiz1-9
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 full round
Range: Close (25ft. + 5ft./2 levels)
Effect: One summoned creature
Duration: 1 round/level
Saving Throw None
Spell Resistance No

This spell summons a creature from elsewhere on Athas that attacks your enemies. It appears where you designate and acts immediately on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. You can communicate verbally with the creature, it will understand simple commands: you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other simple actions (stay, guard, fetch). Summoned creatures act normally on the last round of the spell and disappear at the end of their turn.

Choose a monster from the apropriate table when you first learn this spell. You may choose from a list one level lower and summon 1d3 creatures (determined at casting time) or choose from a list two or more levels lower and summon 1d4+1 creatures (determined at casting time) You will always summon this particular monster (or group) and will loose the use of any monster for the rest of your character level if that particular monster is slain. If all are slain you may, at the start of your next character level, choose a different type of monster to summon.

The only way to be able to choose a different creature from the same list (without getting the first one killed) is to do spell research. Researching a different application of the same spell multiplies cost by x0.5.

When you use a summoning spell to summon an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful or water creature, it is a spell of that type. Summoning a plant on Athas is always a good spell. For example, Summon Monster I is a neutral spell when used to summon a Lak'Spider, Tiny. Only Preservers and Clerics of Earth, Air, Fire or Water can summon the plants on this list.

Arcane Focus A tiny bag filled with a mixture of sand and obsidian dust.

Summon Monster I (CR 1/3)
*Desert Cricket (To'Cricket)
Gra'Centipede, Small
Lak'Spider, Tiny
To'Scorpion, Tiny
Hawk'taNg

Summon Monster II (CR 1/2)
Giant Bee (Lak'Bee)
To'Centipede, Medium
Gra'Spider, Small
Lak'Scorpion, Small
Snake, Viper, Small
*Aprig- PAT1

Summon Monster III (CR 1)
*Sygra- PAT1
*Blood Grass (Preservers only)
*Baazrag- PAT1
*Termite, Worker (Gra'Termite)
*Antloid, Worker (To'Antloid)
Cho'Centipede, Large
Lak'Spider, Medium
Gra'Scorpion, Medium

Summon Monster IV (CR 2)
*Carru'aNg
*Soldier Ant, Giant (Gra'Ant)
*Agony Beetle
*Soldier Termite (Lak'Termite)
*Rock Cactus (Preserver only)
Gra'Preying Mantis, Giant
Shu'Centipede, Huge
To'Spider, Large
Cho'Scorpion, Large

Summon Monster V (CR 3)
*Giant Bluebottle Fly
*Giant Tick
*Bloodvine (Preserver only)
Ankheg
Giant Wasp
Giant Eagle

Summon Monster VI (CR 4)
*Antloid Soldier
*Crodlu
*Giant Dragonfly Larvae
*Giant Firefly
Assassin Vine (Preserver only)
Spider, Huge
Giant Shu'Wasp
Giant Eagle'taNg
Carrion Crawler
Giant Stag Beetle
Ankheg- PPT1

Summon Monster VII (CR 5)
*Giant Beastfly
*Hunting Cactus (Preserver only)
*Tembo
Gra'Carrion Crawler
Manticore
To'Spider, Huge

Summon Monster VIII (CR 6)
*Boneclaw Baazrag
*Giant Antlion
*Heavy Crodlu
*Cilops
Centipede, Gargantuan
Scorpion, Huge
Megaraptor
Manticore -PPT1
Giant Lak'Beasfly

Summon Monster IX (CR 7)
*Giant Dragonfly

*Aratha
Bulette
Dragonne
Spider, Gargantuan
Cho'Centipede, Gargantuan
Shu'Scorpion, Huge
Triceratops

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 kobe Jun 27, 2003 20:49:17	Has anyone looked to change the Monster Summoning spells to match the Dark Sun beastiary? I think this is very important for DS3
#2 star_gazer_02 Jun 30, 2003 5:04:52	I happen to agree w/ you completely. I have reworked the Summon Monster 1-9 spell lists, complete with appropriate athasian templates, I just need to know who to send them to.
#3 zombiegleemax Jun 30, 2003 6:02:59	Post it up here. Flip, Gab, or Nyt will see it and direct it should they need to.
#4 xlorepdarkhelm_dup Jun 30, 2003 13:44:58	Just a little suggestion: Instead of fiendish/celestial creatures, I use elemental, shadow (black) & ethereal (gray). I don't allow the summoning of Fiends or Celestials (outsiders) in my Athas, as the gray is supposed to stop such planar travel through it. I also tend to apply some of the Savage Species templates, like insectile & reptilian, plus the psionic creature template does wonders as well - my spellcasters summon up some really odd things.
#5 zombiegleemax Jun 30, 2003 17:50:24	I use fiends alot, especially Yugoloths. My rational, especially since in the cosmology I use Athas is 100% cut off from the generic outer planes is that they come from a planar region that the PCs (or anyone else) has yet to discover. I also add more of a Far Realm/Cthuluesque description to them, so that the PCs never realize that the wierd horned instects that just wupped their butts were really mezzoloths. I ditched celestials though. Too many goodie-2-shoes powers to come from the Far Realm (or its DS equivalent). Other outsiders that can't be lumped into 'twisted fiends', denizen of the elemental planes, the grey, or the black, got mostly ditched as well.
#6 star_gazer_02 Jun 30, 2003 18:16:25	I'm going to post my revision in this thread in a day or so, I need to migrate it from windoze to linux, along w/ about a billion other things. My rational for the templates was, going into the project, this: Summoning spells, in light of the fact that athas is 'cut off' from standard dnd cosmology, actually call creatures from elsewhere on Athas. There are lots of insects, a few plants (think minefields) for the preservers - a whimsical addition on my part that ended up adding boatloads of flavor to the spell and to the world view in general - and the template is multi-faceted so that one template suffices to cover most of what people will see in the athasian wilds. It has provisions for chameleon like abilities or minor damage reduction or fast healing, among others, with different appelations for each ability. IOW, it's modular, just because there's no reason whatsoever to have 97 different templates for only one basic change in each. Why no grey and black templated creatures? Two reasons, actually: (1) Keeping the grey and the black out of the spell lets it be used unchanged for priests and druids. This was the primary concern. The spell effectively duplicates Call Nature's Ally. Para-elemental priests, being interested in the failure of the Athasian ecosystem, cannot summon the plants on the list, just like defilers. The spell, for all spellcasters, allows communication w/ the summoned animal, the price for which is that the spell, when you cast it is now 'attuned' to that animal and woe be unto you if you let it die (IOW you summon an individual creature IAW the DMG section on summoning spells) (2) I have left the Grey and the Black alone because I wanted to see if there wasn't enough interest to do a Supplement for them. Besides, I think it works better, flavor-wise, to separate out spells that deal w/ the planes of athas, those should be extremely rare and should be cause for much wonderment and confusion from the wizardly ranks. Phew. I'm done. Star Gazer
#7 kobe Jun 30, 2003 18:30:06	Alright thats great news Star Gazer, cant wait to see the lists.
#8 nytcrawlr Jun 30, 2003 22:05:51	Stargazer, in case you didn't know, I've already done templates based on the black and the gray, also did one called Defiled. Templates
#9 star_gazer_02 Jul 01, 2003 4:30:16	Nyt: Mechanics-wise, that should be pretty easy... flavor wise, I dunno if it fits too well. I'm all for staying away from Wizards being able to easily summon creatures from the Grey or the Black until we get definite answers on a couple of things: (1) What are the grey and the black like. (2) And how do spellcasters access these planes? Prestige Classes? Feats? No change needed? Spells? Is the Overcouncil planning on ignoring D&P? IMO that's not such a bad idea. There's nothing anywhere that states that we have to adapt every single book ever produced for DS, not to mention that the OC has already made it a policy that they are going after the flavor presented in the novels anyway. Should non Shadow-Mages even be able to touch the grey? And what about the black? Is it access restricted, or is that just the Hollow? What are the Grey and the Black? What would a visitor see there? What are the effects of a G/B creature visiting the prime plane of Athas? It's a simple matter to add creatures to a list, but a rather harder matter to take them off of one, not least because not everyone is going to get that memo. Until I've recieved some definite guidance on the issue, I would much, much rather have the Summon Monster spells summon only 'naturally occuring' athasian monsters and tackle other-planar monsters more throughly in another set of spells or even a whole supplement (something I would really, really like to see). The mechanics of the situation are easy, the flavor of it isn't. Did that make any sense to anyone but me?
#10 zombiegleemax Jul 01, 2003 6:19:53	Makes alot of sense to me Star. I think the basic monster summoning spells should focus on basic monsters to summon. Summoning things from the grey (undead) and the black (shadow?) should be left ot more specific or specialized summoning spells, ones that target a specific creature (i.e. summon shadow thingie, or summon big nasty undead from the grey IV, you get the point). The general monster summonings should not summon outsiders/extraplanar or whatever the current type modifier is for something not native. Btw, is there anything chunked up or concrete about what the Black is really like? I've got my own version, but I'm curious as to the 'official view'. I liked what Terrors of the Dead Lands presented for the Grey, now I'm itchin for a new perspective on the Black.
#11 nytcrawlr Jul 01, 2003 10:13:42	The black = the shadow plane of other worlds but is cold. That's about it. The gray resembles the negative plan of other worlds but isn't cold and works a bit differently, if that makes any sense. I think what is already in TotDL for the gray is staying, though I'm not 100% on that. You have to take a feat in order to use energy from the Black/Gray/Cerulean to cast your spells with, PrCs can be taken later to amplify this. Jon did a great system on this that I think we are going to use. The templates I created are not for summoning creatures, though they could be, they were basically created to fill in some gaps since DS doesn't have many templates that aren't undead releated. Hence why I didn't add that in the flavor text. Got a few more ideas I'm going to brew up, like para-elemental and a few others I don't have names for yet, then going to list what already existing templates can be used, like half-elemental, elemental, and so on.
#12 Kamelion Jul 02, 2003 1:10:37	You have to take a feat in order to use energy from the Black/Gray/Cerulean to cast your spells with, PrCs can be taken later to amplify this. Jon did a great system on this that I think we are going to use. Nyt, good to hear that the Alternate Wizards might make into the Core set-up. Has there been a decision on which version would be used? The initial version allowed you to take the "x-casting" feats, followed by the PrCl, but the revised version had the PrCl as a prerequisite for the feat - the other way around. Which do you guys plan on using?
#13 star_gazer_02 Jul 02, 2003 6:32:33	AFAIK, PrCs aren't going to be in the core docs. Which is just fine w/ me, I want them OUT... Question: other than the templates I'm developing, would anyone be interested in a list of acceptible templates from other sources? Like SS, MotP, MM2, &c. I'm going to create one for my own use, but I would love to hear what ideas other people have. In other words, what kind of oddities would people like to see in a summon monster list?
#14 wintergreen Jul 02, 2003 6:42:41	So with the atrenative wizars (cerulean, shadow, etc) is the system going to be thta in order to cast spells using the different energy/casting in a different way from normal defiling that you have to have a certain feat? If so, sounds like an interesting mechanic though I seem to recall some people objecting to such a system>;)
#15 nytcrawlr Jul 02, 2003 10:34:32	Originally posted by Kamelion Nyt, good to hear that the Alternate Wizards might make into the Core set-up. Has there been a decision on which version would be used? The initial version allowed you to take the "x-casting" feats, followed by the PrCl, but the revised version had the PrCl as a prerequisite for the feat - the other way around. Which do you guys plan on using? Doh, forgot about that change. It will be the latter, unless we can get a few people to change their mind. That's the consensus so far.
#16 nytcrawlr Jul 02, 2003 10:36:40	Originally posted by Star Gazer AFAIK, PrCs aren't going to be in the core docs. Which is just fine w/ me, I want them OUT... Never said they would be. They will be in a different suppliment. Question: other than the templates I'm developing, would anyone be interested in a list of acceptible templates from other sources? Like SS, MotP, MM2, &c. I'm going to create one for my own use, but I would love to hear what ideas other people have. That's pretty much what I'm doing for ToA.
#17 zombiegleemax Jul 03, 2003 10:43:46	Originally posted by Wintergreen So with the atrenative wizars (cerulean, shadow, etc) is the system going to be thta in order to cast spells using the different energy/casting in a different way from normal defiling that you have to have a certain feat? If so, sounds like an interesting mechanic though I seem to recall some people objecting to such a system>;) Wintergreen won, fatality... That's a nice question I also would like to hear to be answered, especially after the much rejection to this idea in the case of defilers and preservers (with 'debated to death already' reasons, and without any logical answer...)
#18 nytcrawlr Jul 03, 2003 11:24:52	Scroll up, I've already answered it. The reasons for not using a feat for preserving have been answered numerous times as well. Do a little searching on the old boards.
#19 wintergreen Jul 04, 2003 6:54:00	" The reasons for not using a feat for preserving have been answered numerous times as well. Do a little searching on the old boards." I think we're aware of that Nyt. The question is, how come such reasons don't apply to using a feat for other spellcasters? From what you say, it sounds like there's still some debate in the senate about whether or not they'll be get the feat and then the PrC or get the PrC and then the feats. If so, then how come the reasons given in the preserver and defiler case don't apply and settle the debate?
#20 star_gazer_02 Jul 04, 2003 8:33:04	From what you say, it sounds like there's still some debate in the senate about whether or not they'll be get the feat and then the PrC or get the PrC and then the feats. If so, then how come the reasons given in the preserver and defiler case don't apply and settle the debate? Well, I can give you my perspective on the issue: I) In FR you have two different types of Wizards: A) those who use the Weave, the standard Wizard B) those who use the Shadow Weave, a Wizard /w a different 'power source'. II) To access the different power source, you need to spend a feat, first, which gives you access to the power, and only then are you eligible for the PrC, of course, you could take the feat at the same time you take the PrC, as there is no 'order of events' to follow. III) Now, in DS we have the following situation: A) Two different types of Wizard that i) use the same power source B) Potentially 4 different power sources i) The Sun ii) The Cerulean Storm iii) The Black and I would add, just because I think undead are cool, iv) The Grey It would seem to me that Sections I (A & B) map directly onto sections III (A & B), with the only difference being that in DS you have more choices. The precedence was set by FR and to make things simple for people to understand I would use it. There's only one problem w/ this scenario though, not being dependent on plant life can be a HUGE advantage, so each power source should have it's own fluctuation tables, ala a Sun mage being less powerful at night. Doing this lets people take the feat at character creation which simulates quite nicely an apprentice being taught from the get go to not use the plant life around her. As long as you avoid making an alternate power feat a no-brainer, then there should be no problems w/ allowing the feat to be taken before taking a PrC.
#21 wintergreen Jul 04, 2003 9:28:33	I was wondering, does making the alternative wizards into prestige classes get round the restriction/requirement that the athasian wizard be usable in other campaign settings? [I don't know if the FR developers were under that restriction because Weave and Shadow Weave are obviously campaing setting specific magic systems and from what I've read of the FR rules you just need a feat to use the Shadow Weave, you don't have to have levels in a specific Prestige Class and having taken the Shadow Weave feat the mage is then unable to use the Weave. Is that correct? I was also unsure if the Shadow Weave really is completely different from the Weave or just the 'darker' side of it so making it more similar to distinguishing between Preservers and Defilers.]
#22 nytcrawlr Jul 04, 2003 15:09:31	Originally posted by Wintergreen I think we're aware of that Nyt. The question is, how come such reasons don't apply to using a feat for other spellcasters? From what you say, it sounds like there's still some debate in the senate about whether or not they'll be get the feat and then the PrC or get the PrC and then the feats. If so, then how come the reasons given in the preserver and defiler case don't apply and settle the debate? Again, I've already answered this. We are not using feat + PrC, we are using PrC gains abilities of feat within the PrC. It was my bad for not realizing this first, I thought we were still using the former, but I've cleared that up now. The answer to all of your questions
#23 jon_oracle_of_athas Jul 05, 2003 5:31:42	To supplement, there are still three feats, one for each alternative wizard (i.e. energy source) ala the Path Sinister and Path Dexter feats, but they affect spells with certain descriptors rather than certain schools. These feats are optional, not mandatory. http://darksun.3sins.com/3e/3e_wizards.htm If someone could do me a favor - check if there actually are two spells at each level that can be selected with each feat, and e-mail me the result - I'd appreciate it. athas[at]online.no Btw, there will be a cerulean wizard in the adventure "Whispers of the Storm".
#24 star_gazer_02 Jul 21, 2003 15:41:04	Ok, sorry for the delay... migrating sux. This is a catchall for the spell, no need to write the level one spell and then 8 copies telling you to go read the first spell. This spell replaces summon nature's ally for the druid as well. I know the CR's for the higher level spells are off, but as I gather more info on Athasian monsters, I will adjust them up to their proper levels. The spell is a little harsh, but then again, so is Athas... here you go: Summon Monster I-IX Conjuration (Summoning) [see text] Level: Clr1-9, Drd 1-9, Wiz1-9 Components: V, S, F/DF Casting Time: 1 full round Range: Close (25ft. + 5ft./2 levels) Effect: One summoned creature Duration: 1 round/level Saving Throw None Spell Resistance No This spell summons a creature from elsewhere on Athas that attacks your enemies. It appears where you designate and acts immediately on your turn. It attacks your opponents to the best of its ability. You can communicate verbally with the creature, it will understand simple commands: you can direct it not to attack, to attack particular enemies, or to perform other simple actions (stay, guard, fetch). Summoned creatures act normally on the last round of the spell and disappear at the end of their turn. Choose a monster from the apropriate table when you first learn this spell. You may choose from a list one level lower and summon 1d3 creatures (determined at casting time) or choose from a list two or more levels lower and summon 1d4+1 creatures (determined at casting time) You will always summon this particular monster (or group) and will loose the use of any monster for the rest of your character level if that particular monster is slain. If all are slain you may, at the start of your next character level, choose a different type of monster to summon. The only way to be able to choose a different creature from the same list (without getting the first one killed) is to do spell research. Researching a different application of the same spell multiplies cost by x0.5. When you use a summoning spell to summon an air, chaotic, earth, evil, fire, good, lawful or water creature, it is a spell of that type. Summoning a plant on Athas is always a good spell. For example, Summon Monster I is a neutral spell when used to summon a Lak'Spider, Tiny. Only Preservers and Clerics of Earth, Air, Fire or Water can summon the plants on this list. Arcane Focus A tiny bag filled with a mixture of sand and obsidian dust. Summon Monster I (CR 1/3) Desert Cricket (To'Cricket) Gra'Centipede, Small Lak'Spider, Tiny To'Scorpion, Tiny Hawk'taNg Summon Monster II (CR 1/2) Giant Bee (Lak'Bee) To'Centipede, Medium Gra'Spider, Small Lak'Scorpion, Small Snake, Viper, Small Aprig- PAT1 Summon Monster III (CR 1) Sygra- PAT1 Blood Grass (Preservers only) Baazrag- PAT1 Termite, Worker (Gra'Termite) Antloid, Worker (To'Antloid) Cho'Centipede, Large Lak'Spider, Medium Gra'Scorpion, Medium Summon Monster IV (CR 2) Carru'aNg Soldier Ant, Giant (Gra'Ant) Agony Beetle Soldier Termite (Lak'Termite) Rock Cactus (Preserver only) Gra'Preying Mantis, Giant Shu'Centipede, Huge To'Spider, Large Cho'Scorpion, Large Summon Monster V (CR 3) Giant Bluebottle Fly Giant Tick Bloodvine (Preserver only) Ankheg Giant Wasp Giant Eagle Summon Monster VI (CR 4) Antloid Soldier Crodlu Giant Dragonfly Larvae Giant Firefly Assassin Vine (Preserver only) Spider, Huge Giant Shu'Wasp Giant Eagle'taNg Carrion Crawler Giant Stag Beetle Ankheg- PPT1 Summon Monster VII (CR 5) Giant Beastfly Hunting Cactus (Preserver only) Tembo Gra'Carrion Crawler Manticore To'Spider, Huge Summon Monster VIII (CR 6) Boneclaw Baazrag Giant Antlion Heavy Crodlu Cilops Centipede, Gargantuan Scorpion, Huge Megaraptor Manticore -PPT1 Giant Lak'Beasfly Summon Monster IX (CR 7) Giant Dragonfly Aratha Bulette Dragonne Spider, Gargantuan Cho'Centipede, Gargantuan Shu'Scorpion, Huge Triceratops