And if Oronis is supposed to be the first avangion, just who is the one that the kreen remember in their racial memories (if this figure is even an avangion at all...)? TotDL seems to refer to a kreen and a (halfling?) avangion, known as the Great Ones, who helped refugees from the Cleansing Wars and granted spells to followers, but this all predates Keltis' transformation. Even more suspicious....
Avangions with templars? Hmmmmm...
Sorry - couldn't think of anything interesting to say about the hamsters, although I remain firmly convinced that they and their intergalactic furryfooted masters are an integral part of the DS setting. Now if I can just figure out a way to get those spelljamming penguin traders that ride the flying pigs into the game then we are sorted..
Sorry, won't do that again. No, really, I'm all better now.
Actually, I was always bugged (no pun) about the thri-kreen racial memory thing dealing with advanced beings. I always wanted to cook up an adventure where the PCs dug up clues about the real 'First Avangion' hoping to enlist his aid. After every imaginable ordeal under the sun and some kind of climactic chase/dog fight to the 'avangion's home', they find his grave marker (or something akin) instead. Tragedy under the Dark Sun.
I wa reading over the TotDL again last night. There is a reference to the "Great One" still being around somewhere, but oddly "out of reach".
Then there is the reference to Oronis developing the avangion spell with the help of a wizard (called Beshteren or something like that). I wonder how he fits into this, and where he might have gotten his knowledge from...?
Still can't shake my questions about the kreen and their memories of a joint kreen/human realm ruled by a great kreen and an avangion.
Can the DS3 design team shed any light on this from the notes and stuff that TSR/Wizards gave you guys? Are we just looking at DS inconsistencies again here? Or is there more to be said about avangions than Oronis' spell?
(The dowar! The penguin traders were called the dowar. Ssurrans watch out!)
Hmmm . . . 'out of reach'.
On another plane then? The Black? The Grey? Or even . . . the Hollow (Rajaat and the Great One just sittin around doing nothing but playing spades)? Ooooo! What would happen to an avangion stuck in the Black who takes on the shadow or black touched template and becomes evil
You didn't think that the AB's were running the show, did you? No, it's the hampsters, they learned from the mice.
Course, show me a good chess board and you'll have me droolin too.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Actually, I was always bugged (no pun) about the thri-kreen racial memory thing dealing with advanced beings. I always wanted to cook up an adventure where the PCs dug up clues about the real 'First Avangion' hoping to enlist his aid. After every imaginable ordeal under the sun and some kind of climactic chase/dog fight to the 'avangion's home', they find his grave marker (or something akin) instead. Tragedy under the Dark Sun.
I've always taken it to be Oronis himself. If you read up about the alst stage of development for an avangion, he vanishes for like a hundred years, disappearing through space & time. Oronis could have gone back to see the world before it was ruined, could have helped the Kreen and more... Of course as he hasn't actually done it yet in this timeline, he's oblivious to it.
That simple idea leads to, well, tons more simple ideas! Thanks a million.
I always argued about time travel being increadibly mutable with paradoxes and time loops and such (as opposed to the view that one cannot change time). If Oronis goes back in time and tries to stop the Clensing War or Rajaat, he will invariably change time so that he never becomes a Champion, never changes his views after the Clensing Wars, never becomes an Avangion, and never goes back in time to change things in the first place. And since he never changed things in the first place, everything proceeds as normal and he does go back and change things . . . . Paradoxical and infinite time - loop.
So he's going back and tweaking things far from his own origin point in time. Like the founding of the thri-kreen empire. But did things happen as he really wished, or did even more Athasian Tragedy strike and he caused more harm than good?
So one of the PCs that I have that always wanted to play a son of Nibenay and try to take out all the SMs. So he finally goes after Oronis and takes him out anyways ddespite how much Oronis aassures him he's not a defiler anymore.
So Oronis never got to leave for 100 years and deal with the Thor-kreen the way he did, so no more "great one", all TK all over lose racial memories of it, and something else happened instead.
Muwhahahaha, maybe somethingg bad enough that allows the TK invasion to happen well before it was suppose to, and not only that, it was successful.
/me plays Twilight Zone music
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Err . . . I never thought of that!
That simple idea leads to, well, tons more simple ideas! Thanks a million.
It's almost cleshe, but it works. Of course I also had the idea that Oronis helped steer some lizardmen towards the last sea, to almost appease his conscience a little, and possibly helped point the mind lords in the right direction (little nudge) to force them in the direction they went to psychotically protect that area so that he couldn't come and finish off the lizardman (lizardfolk?) race. Basically, all that Oronis does in the past is already recorded/has happened, and he probably isn't even the wiser (in this timeframe), but you seem to have the same mindset I do when it comes to Oronis being the Avangion the Thri-Kreen remember.
So what about Farcluun?
But yeah, he was a dragon, not a champion or anything like that.
Basically consider him a low level epic character, that the PCs at said level for adventure should have had no chance in hell of defeating him, weakened or not.
Check out Greyhawk Ruins - he's in there too, although the Greyhawk Farcluun is a red dragon and lives on top of a ridiculously huge pile of treasure (even by Gygax's standards).
Thought more about time-travelling Oronis last night. He could very well have headed back to the time of the kreen Great One, knowing that he must avoid destroying his own future and eventual transormation. So you'd have an avangion that knows the Cleansing Wars are coming but is quite powerless to stop them. Indeed, to ensure his own existence, he might even be motivated to get the wars started...
Keven Melka has mentioned that the author of Thri-Kreen of Athas was a one shot author, and probably didn't do his homework in this respect.
And then there is that funny being with the glowing eyes that visits the ruins of Tar-Elon...
Or am I threading too much together here?
So maybe Oronis went back in time, shapeshifted to make himself look like the rhulisti-like creature with wings, gathered what was left of the rhulisti up, and helped the Great One (big, freaking, powerful kreen) build the city of walls and allowed the rhulisiti to study him and create more rhulisiti with wings.
Think I've got an idea for the Great One too, it was just the most powerful of the zik chil that initially evolved the Kreen race into what it is today. If you go by the idea that the zik-chil are responsible for the evolution of the kreen that is.
Ahem.. I'll get over this eventually, really I will....
Read up on the Chatkcha of the Great One the other night. In the description it claims that the Great One "left" Athas at a certain point. Keep coming across references like this one that suggests that the Great One is only absent temporarily. Wonder if his return is linked to the Kreen invasion...
Could that winged rhulisti have been an avangion as well? The raaig in TotDL is interested in finding out about avangions and this had led me to believe that the winged figure in question was one.
Who wrote TotDL? Can this person give any input? Or is it all still secret secret game design stuff?
Originally posted by Kamelion
Given that the zik-chil are initially a spelljammer race, I am afraid that I am starting to see them as little more than an excuse to get the Killer Space Halflings into the game...
Ahem.. I'll get over this eventually, really I will....
Yeah, wonder which came first, ah well. I can deal with the name.
Who wrote TotDL? Can this person give any input? Or is it all still secret secret game design stuff?
It's all in the credits my friend:
Original Concept: Timothy Brown
Design: Gabriel Cormier (Gab)
Development and Editing: Gabriel Cormier (Gab), Peter Nuttall (Brax)
/me pokes Gab
If so could you elaborate more on the subject?
It could become important for me since I'm writing a story on the Rhul-thaun race.
By the way i prefer the theory which the Zik-chil are descendants of the nature-benders(evil life-shapers) proposed by xlorep... (If my memory is correct)
Okay, here's my take:
TKs: I seem to remember it mentioning somewhere that TKs actually came from Athas and migrated out (xlor, I know you love it when people do that), so it's highly conceivable that zik-chil (nature benders?) migrated out of Athas when they lost their wars to the Life-shapers (or the Brown Tide), joining other worlds and migrating into space (but not the space around Athas, being a protected Crystal Sphere).
The TKs big, giant head in the sand: Like your take, Mach. Here's what I'd do: the guy started as an avangion and the PCs try to hunt him down to gain a powerful ally and find that (s)he was corrupted with power and is now a corrupted avangion or even a dragon. Heh.
Hampsters: The zik-chil created hampsters as a secret weapon. Duh. Look, if you mispell "Nightmare Beast" it can clearly be seen as "Giant Space Hampster." Observe:
Nightmare Bast
Ght Mpa Bamst
Gahnt Smpac Amste
Gant Spac Amster
Giant Space Hampster
Coincidence? I think not.
Gotta hate it when you miss your plane....
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Okay, here's my take:
TKs: I seem to remember it mentioning somewhere that TKs actually came from Athas and migrated out (xlor, I know you love it when people do that), so it's highly conceivable that zik-chil (nature benders?) migrated out of Athas when they lost their wars to the Life-shapers (or the Brown Tide), joining other worlds and migrating into space (but not the space around Athas, being a protected Crystal Sphere).
Yea, I forget where I read that, I wanna say it was in one of the MC's... Maybe some of the Zik-Chil do have access to Spelljamming capabilities. The Tohr-Kreen Empire is really expansive. The Crimson Savannah is supposedly a small outpost on the edge of it's borders, if memory serves. Maybe they have discovered a way out of Athas, and are keeping it to themselves (ala Dregoth and his Portal).
Sorry if I bring this thread back but I must know. When you speak of a winged halfling(A Rhulisti I guess) is this official somewhere?
Terrors of the Deadlands, p 53
The gith were able to come to Athas.
Kreen are all over the place, including the outer planes, Forgotten Realms, and spelljammer.
There are at least a few demons and devils running around on Athas.
The fact that a sorcerer king or queen has not armed their military with huge numbers of metal weapons imported from the outer planes and such suggests they, too, are stuck here.
I feel that Coranuu and his tribe bolted Athas for the outer planes, settling in Ysgard (there is an Athasian elf tribe there).
So here's my take:
Athas is similar to Ravenloft in the fact that it might be possible to get into it, but it is very, very difficult to leave. The fact that the SKs, with the exception of Dregoth, are stuck on Athas as well. This seems to suggest that someone more powerful than the SKs locked Athas up.
Rajaat? Most likely. Rajaat probably felt that Athas returned to the Blue Age would never be safe from the predations of others if its boarders were open so he closed the gates. There are loopholes in this that can be exploited, but Rajaat was pretty good at what he did. It also served the double-purpose of keeping his enemies trapped in one place.
Thoughts?
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
I feel that Coranuu and his tribe bolted Athas for the outer planes, settling in Ysgard (there is an Athasian elf tribe there).
Ok, you done did it, gonna have to ask for more info on this.
What accessory, etc.
:D
Rajaat? Most likely. Rajaat probably felt that Athas returned to the Blue Age would never be safe from the predations of others if its boarders were open so he closed the gates. There are loopholes in this that can be exploited, but Rajaat was pretty good at what he did. It also served the double-purpose of keeping his enemies trapped in one place.
Thoughts?
Works for me.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
I believe it's the PS Planes of Chaos book. I'll have to dig it out to figure out which page number.
Actually, I think that is one of the few PS books I have, will have to take a gander tonight when I get home.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
Rajaat? Most likely. Rajaat probably felt that Athas returned to the Blue Age would never be safe from the predations of others if its boarders were open so he closed the gates. There are loopholes in this that can be exploited, but Rajaat was pretty good at what he did. It also served the double-purpose of keeping his enemies trapped in one place.
I certainly don't object to any of the lead-up reasoning. It's a thing that saw a lot of discussion on the ML in the past ...
I get a little tired of Rajaat being the boogie man behind everything, as if the Green Age was totally one dimensional, but in this case your logic makes sense.
However, there are still other alternatives that make sense. Powers from the outer planes closing off Athas because of the development of Defiler magic (can't have that getting loose in the multiverse) ... The presence of the Grey is the barrier, and the Grey is made up of the dead. Some kind of clot in the past prevented the dead from reaching the outer planes, and it's only compounded since then.
On that subject, any plans by athas.org to make any of this official, or is it going to be left to the imagination of GMs everywhere? Either is acceptable, just curious.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
On that subject, any plans by athas.org to make any of this official, or is it going to be left to the imagination of GMs everywhere? Either is acceptable, just curious.
... Well, for myself, I have a very strong inclination to want to leave as much of the green age "hazy" as possible ....
(That's not to say that we don't have certain ideas that we keep to ourselves and show up mainly in trying to keep some of the background stuff consistant ...)
I just happen to (personally) think that an undefined past is what makes the present what it is. The SKs have destroyed all records of the past that they could get their hands ... uh, claws, on. They've seeded the ages with lies and misdirections, and fought like hell to repress as much of the truth as possible. All that anybody of this day and age knows of the past is filtered through the agendas of the incredibly ancient beings who actually lived through the events, or through half-translated fragmental records like the Book of Kemalok Kings.
So, to some extent, I think that there can't/shouldn't be a real answer anymore. We can point out what some of these ancient beings claim ... but then, even they weren't alive when some of these things happened.
So, generally, I consider that having anything more definate than things like the legend of Corranu (for example) survive until the present runs counter to the setting thematics. (Which is, incidentally, the thing about the second boxed set that I really didn't like. I've got no problem with all the ...missing... SKs.) And I think that marking something as cannonical opens it up to being seen as being "known" in the present day and age, all claims to the contrary aside.
How difficult is it to get to the outer planes from Athas? If you go there and come back with a metal weapon, does it dissolve or do you get to keep it? If you can keep it, why aren't there armies of SKs running around with loads of metal weapons? And so on.
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
How difficult is it to get to the outer planes from Athas? If you go there and come back with a metal weapon, does it dissolve or do you get to keep it? If you can keep it, why aren't there armies of SKs running around with loads of metal weapons? And so on.
Oh. That.
Yeah, I'd expect to see a codification of the planar characteristics of Athas at some point, using the material in the 3.5 DMG.
I'd, uh, do it myself, but I'm not much for planar cosmology. There are others who are better versed in the various minutae and constraints imposed by past material...
Originally posted by Dawnstealer
How difficult is it to get to the outer planes from Athas? If you go there and come back with a metal weapon, does it dissolve or do you get to keep it? If you can keep it, why aren't there armies of SKs running around with loads of metal weapons? And so on.
Isn't planar travel nearely impossible?? I think only Dregoth could have *purchase* metal weapons(enough to arm an army) through the planar gate but merely just for game balance, he has not.
Originally posted by flip
The presence of the Grey is the barrier, and the Grey is made up of the dead. Some kind of clot in the past prevented the dead from reaching the outer planes, and it's only compounded since then.
I like the idea of the Gray... if anyone has read the "nights dawn" triology by Peter F. Hamilton, do so... i won't spoil the book for people that haven't, but in this book you find that humans, as a species, have a VERY and UNUSUAL amount of souls (dead people) trapped in the energy realm nearest to the realm of the living, making it very hard to travel beyond that particular realm...
I think the grey is the main barrier.... but what made the grey is intriguing. One concept one of my players through around was the grey has created by the death of Athas's one and only god... creating a metaphysical mist that trapped the weaker souls of the recently dead... thickening the mist... and so on and so on.
Question: when Agis goes to the Grey, who or what is the lady that greets him?????
Originally posted by Jaanos
Question: when Agis goes to the Grey, who or what is the lady that greets him?????
I thought only Sadira saw him in the gray?
Which lady greets Agis? Don't recall that from the PP (but it does sound familiar somehow - doesn't she speak to him or something and say that there is nothing but the Grey? Can't remember where it's from!)