Anyway...so I'm reading through DL16...Dargaard Keep to be exact...and I had some questions for you ol' AD&D 1st Edition players.
First...I'll say that I in no way take Dargaard Keep to be canon. The thing reads like a 1st Edition Fiend Folio, heh heh. I mean...did this Michael Gray even read any Dragonlance material before writing this? And what about the editors?
Anyway...beholder, dopplegangers, werewolves, displacer beasts, and tarrasque aside...my true question is this:
Kitiara has become a penanggalan...what in the Abyss is a penanggalan? And what is its odd connection to vinegar?
Anyway...I haven't read the rest of them in here...although Tower of the Kyrie seems to have promise...and it's written by Niles, so...
You, my friend, have discovered the module that everyone's tried to hide.
The ONLY canon part of that, as i recall, is the map of dargaard keep. Otherwise, the whole thing is a wash =)
Originally posted by Brimstone
Kitiara has become a penanggalan...what in the Abyss is a penanggalan? And what is its odd connection to vinegar?
It's basically a floating head. Some depictions have its guts floating about as well.
One of my Oriental Adventures/Rokugan books has a picture of one, but I can't remember which one.
Cam can tell you more about this one.
Having Kitiara become one of these undead monstrosities is certainly an interesting option, but it's also downright bizarre and ruins any chance of the adventure being part of the primary canon.
For more real-world information about the penanggalan, try this link: http://mywebpages.comcast.net/scottandrewh/penanggalan.html
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Brimstone
Anyway...beholder, dopplegangers, werewolves, displacer beasts, and tarrasque aside...my true question is this:
Tas mentions he saw a beholder in The Soulforge.
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Tas mentions he saw a beholder in The Soulforge.
LOL! Unfortunately, Rohan has already tainted me on that book. ;)
Don't get me wrong...I love that book...it's a great story, but some things seemed a bit biased and slightly deliberate and bitter (kinda like some of the War of Souls, IMHO).
Anyway, I think Cam mentioned that there is a beholder in one of the other DL modules as well...one that was written by Niles if memory serves.
Maybe I'll just have to conceed on this one...although the idea of beholders in DL is odd to me.
I will say this though...I am very much looking forward to reading through those 16 Mini-books! The only original I have is DL15: Mysts of Krynn. The other 14 (minus Dragons of Mystery and Dragons of Glory) I've only read in the three Dragonlance Classics Volumes that I have...oh and the SAGA version of it. Both of which are drastically short on maps and extras. Now of course these extras and maps are tiny...but they can be expaned if need be. :-)
I feel a chapter in my personal DL history can finally be closed...I know that sounds weird...but I've been searching for these things (affordably) for years. And this is probably about as close as I'm ever going to get to having them.
P.S. By the way, Cam and Trampas....the penanggalan...that's really sick!
Originally posted by Brimstone
Maybe I'll just have to conceed on this one...although the idea of beholders in DL is odd to me.
Okay, I don't get this. I've heard a few people say that beholders in Krynn seems odd to them.
Why?
Dragonlance is a D&D world. Beholders are D&D monsters. There's nothing to my knowledge saying that beholders don't exist in Krynn.
I would think anything in the monster manual that isn't a DL no-no (i.e. orcs, lycanthropes, etc.) would be fair game.
P.S. By the way, Cam and Trampas....the penanggalan...that's really sick!
Thanks!
BTW, DL16 has some great info on Lacynos, better known to Night of Blood fans as Nethosak, the minotaur capitol.
Originally posted by Brimstone
LOL! Unfortunately, Rohan has already tainted me on that book. ;)
Don't get me wrong...I love that book...it's a great story, but some things seemed a bit biased and slightly deliberate and bitter (kinda like some of the War of Souls, IMHO).
NO argument there man! :D
Maybe I'll just have to conceed on this one...although the idea of beholders in DL is odd to me.
I can see how that can happen, they are pretty alien creatures and Dragonlance, despite its "High Fantasy" stereotype, I think does have some gritty feeling tint to it----at least, I try to enforce it on my home game. Beholders seem too weird for DL (:behold
but remember, they are very territorial so they are prefer to stay hidden most of the time. They also hate their kin with a passion thinking their specific anatomy is the sign of true beholderhood (or whatever the manic creatures conceive in their twisted minds) so you'll never find more than one in any particular place, perfect for fulfilling the "monster in the family well" mystery.Besides, their range of abilities makes them a nice rounded challence for all PCs in the party.
For example, the Forgotten Realms has a relatively easy thematic setting to it. It basically involves 'so much magic that a detect magic spell will make your eyes bleed.' For Greyhawk, it is about gritty dungeon crawling, tomb raiding, and survival against ancient evils.
For Dragonlance though, it is much less defined. Magic waxes and wanes (currently waxing). Monstrous creatures and dieties come and go.
Some might say that Dragonlance is about mortals dealing with things far beyond their power to control. Dragons needing to be killed with artifacts, gods taking over the world, 18 level limit cap, armageddon every 30 years, are examples of this.
Some might say that Dragonlance is about conflict and gritty survival, with the gods and dragons merely being weapons in the mortal wars, with the axis of good, evil, and neutrality being the warring armed camps. That's why you have the Dragonarmies vs. the Solamnic Knighthood or the Dark Knights vs. Solamnics vs. Legion of Steel.
Some might say that Dragonlance is all about dragons and everything draconinc. The dragon men, the dragon orbs, the dragon spawn and the draconic dieties are explained by this. Everything should ultimately be traced back to the influence of dragons and their power.
So it is not surprising that people would have varying opinions of what does and doesn't belong. Beholders work excellently as high magic creatures (Faerun) or dungeon dwelling ancient evils (Oerth).
They aren't draconic though and don't seem to have much of a place in either the Dragonarmies or the Dark Knights. It is not surprising then that some wouldn't think they "fit" the setting.
I would be interested to see what Chris or Jaimie think what the "design philosophy" is for Dragonlance after all the conflicting visions by various authors have been brought together. It would certainly help me in designing adventures for my own campaigns set in the dragonlance world.
Now...as far as I know...that's it on true "bans." But to me...a few other things don't seem to fit too well. I've never really been able to explain it. Perhaps it is because other worlds use them alot. Richard had a good explination above...that makes sense to me, as well. But there are just a few things that are a bit...well...out there, and I don't like using them. And they are:
Dopplegangers (DL already has Huldrefolk anyway)
Displacer Beasts
Beholders
Astral Dragons
I can't think of any others at the moment...but I know there are some others. It's not that I think those monsters are dumb or anything like that...but for some reason...they just don't seem to mesh well with my vision of Dragonlance. Now...just because they don't mesh well with my vision, doesn't mean they don't mesh well with others. And I think DL has enough official "bans" as it is. I prefer that they weren't mentioned though in the upcoming DL Monster Manual (hint, hint, wink, wink, nudge, nudge). But leave it open so if people wanted to they can use them...if not...then that's cool too.
all giants except for Hill Giants
Well there was a storm giant in the The Black Wing and a frost giant in DC#20. Just saying. ;)
Beholders have appeared in three novels, but I still think that they aren't native to Krynn, and just planetravellers.
And the Storm Giant...well...give me some time to remember the difference between a Storm Giant and a Hill Giant and I'll explain it away too. heh heh
Beholders as only planetravelers? I could probably handle that.
/me watches Tobin's head go
:D
Originally posted by Richard Connery
Don't forget Ettins and Cyclops (The Bestiary).
/me watches Tobin's head go
Okay...lemme 'splain...no, there is too much...lemme sum up:
By "giants" I didn't mean the "Giant" genre...I meant any monster that had "Giant" in its name. In the ogre family (in my DL) there are:
Ogres
Half-ogres (which is human/ogre blood)
Irda
Titans
Cyclopes
Ettins
Hill Giants
Hags
Trolls
Minotaurs
(I might be forgetting one or two)
So...technically...the giants that I believe to be on Krynn are Hill Giants, Cyclopes, Ettins, and Titans. I swear though it feels like I'm forgetting a couple.... Ah well.
Essentially...I adhere to what is in The Bestiary when it comes to the Humanoids on Ansalon. It's missing a few...but for the most part...that is what I hold as true.
Originally posted by talinthas
there actually are giants on krynn. there was a dragon magazine article on them.
Ah...Dragon, schmragon.
Who wrote the article?
Originally posted by Brimstone
Ah...Dragon, schmragon.
Who wrote the article?
Richard Dakan (yes the author of Rise of the Titans
. It seems like it would make it impossible to have your own ideas because you are playing a pre-determined role.
I want to have my own Dragonlance campaign, not someone else's, know what i mean?
Originally posted by ferratus
I would be interested to see what Chris or Jaimie think what the "design philosophy" is for Dragonlance after all the conflicting visions by various authors have been brought together. It would certainly help me in designing adventures for my own campaigns set in the dragonlance world.
Well, I can't speak for Jamie (particularly since he's taking a well-deserved vacation after Origins and before GenCon!), but I'll go ahead and tell you my personal "design philosophy" is (EDITOR'S NOTE: YMMV ;) Remember, Jamie and I are only the most recent designers of Dragonlance, following more than 19 years of previous designers! You'll get a very different answer than what one might have/could receive from Stan!, Steve Miller, or even Tracy and Margaret!), based upon what has come before:
Dragonlance is a world of fairy tales. Plain and simple. Now, I'm talking about both the "real" fairy tales, like those found in the original Grimm's Fairy Tales, the folk tales of Russia (Babba Yaga) and the British Isles (King Arthur, Taliesen, etc.) as well as the "modern mythology" like that of Tolkien.
Yes, there are strange monsters in the world...things that exist in the forest, around the corner, and in the shadows...things that are scary and horrifying...and sometimes, even the most simple and mundane things can actually be the most frightening.
There shouldn't be a monster, just because. There shouldn't be "common" magical items, just because. Everything should have a story behind it. Cam's beholder is an excellent example of how a "common" (or uncommon, as the case may be) creature becomes more than just a set of statistics because of an interesting back story.
I'm not a big fan of "random" encounters...my previous published adventures show that fairly well, and even in Key of Destiny, although I do include "random" encounters, I try and make each one somehow tie into the adventure's story.
That all said, I believe that if you want to include lycanthropes or orcs or any of the "officially banned" creatures into your game, that's completely up to you...but the pill will probably go down a lot easier if you make sure to have an interesting story hook behind it.
For example, a lycanthropic Solamnic Knight whose family was cursed centuries ago because his ancestor willingly burned a White Robe as a witch rather than speak up and save her (such as Kelemvor from the Forgotten Realms Avatar Crisis trilogy...before he became the god of the dead!). He cannot infect others, but his shifting is tied into the cycle of the Silver Moon, Solinari. Because Solinari cursed him (through the White Robe), silver weapons are his bane (reflecting the Silver Moon that controls him). Now (OFFICIAL DISCLAIMER! :P), this is an example of how to take a "forbidden" monster and make it something that works with Dragonlance, not something condoned by the license holders of a Wizards of the Coast intellectual property
Christopher
Originally posted by random quickfingers
I'd never read the DnD Dragonlance books, but I figured that many things were banned. I've been asked to DM a campaign with the PC's replacing the major characters from the War of the Lance. I'm not too sure about it though
It seems like it would make it impossible to have your own ideas because you are playing a pre-determined role.
I want to have my own Dragonlance campaign, not someone else's, know what i mean?
Players being "forced" to replay the events of Chronicles is a stigma that Dragonlance as a D&D RPG has been trying to overcome for a long time. Even in SAGA, the included adventures were based upon the "Dragons of a New Age" series, complete with the novel characters as PC options.
That's why the adventure trilogy I'm writing for the new Dragonlance (d20) RPG is avoiding any sign, what so ever, of pregenerated PCs. Yet, the events in the adventure are such that they will have a truly lasting effect upon Ansalon...even impacting the future of novels, without either the adventures or the novels being forcincg one another to do so.
Sovereign Press is working hand in hand with the novel department of WotC to ensure that the game line and the novel line meld together to create a seamless whole, instead of poking holes in one another with constant continuity "burps."
We're still early in the process, and we're still ironing out all the seams, but I think that for the first time in a very long time the lines of communication between creators and writers will be strong enough to enable Dragonlance to survive and thrive for at LEAST another 20 years! :D
Christopher
Originally posted by Stormprince
Players being "forced" to replay the events of Chronicles is a stigma that Dragonlance as a D&D RPG has been trying to overcome for a long time. Even in SAGA, the included adventures were based upon the "Dragons of a New Age" series, complete with the novel characters as PC options.
You also see this in Knight's Sword and Flint's Axe. In KS, somebody has to play a knight-to-be. FA requires someone to play a dwarf, preferably the pregenerated Obsidian Fireforge.
Despite this, I still think a lot of those modules. Part of it is that they were the first DL games I've played. Part of it is that I see a lot of room for development with the characters.
To touch upon what Chris said in his other post...
You hit the nail on the head with the "fairy tale" aspect of Dragonlance. What you described is very much the definition of "romantic fantasy".
I know I talk about options a lot, and I imagine some of you wonder how I keep the DL feel with those options. Certainly, I do like having options available so that players have a variety of things to play.
Despite my "appetite for options", I always try to explain those options in an in-world sense. For example, take a look at my Bards of Branchala article. Here, I take Monte Cook's bard, but I tie it into Dragonlance. Read the article for more details.
Thanks for the insight, Chris. It's always good to get the insider view.
Originally posted by Brimstone
And the Storm Giant...well...give me some time to remember the difference between a Storm Giant and a Hill Giant and I'll explain it away too. heh heh
Well the storm giant incident happened in another dimension so it didn't really have anything to do with Krynn in the first place.
Originally posted by Dragonhelm
You also see this in Knight's Sword and Flint's Axe. In KS, somebody has to play a knight-to-be. FA requires someone to play a dwarf, preferably the pregenerated Obsidian Fireforge.
This is actually not a bad compromise between opening up the module to any or all characters the players might want, and handing them characters already pregenerated. If you know the adventure's going to be about challenging the minotaurs and have set them up as the bad guys, you wouldn't want a minotaur PC. Similarly, if the idea behind the adventure is that the players are all allied with the Knights of Solamnia, a PC who wants to play a draconian or a dark dwarf might need to rethink their choices.
There's a world of difference between "Somebody must play Erastin Rivenguard" and "Somebody must play a squire who seeks knighthood."
Cheers,
Cam
Not only that...but Dragons of Truth there is a displacer beast.
Ah well...I guess I was just wrong.
Dragonlance was, prior to Dragonlance Adventures, quite a melting pot of monster encounters. There hadn't been too many established rules set beyond the "Krynn's halflings are called kender" and "there are no orcs". Indeed, the moons didn't have any effect on mages rules-wise and there weren't any special rules for Knights of Solamnia, so DLA really did cement a lot of those in place.
One of the things Andre and I hope to accomplish with the Bestiary of Krynn apart from giving fans a whole slew of monsters is to provide some good advice and suggestions for how to use existing monsters in your Dragonlance campaign. The gods and the Graygem are all very forgiving of freak occurances of monsters, for example, which enables a Dungeon Master to use strange creatures once in a while without making Krynn seem populated by an incredibly vast array of creatures whose ability to live together stretches the bounds of sanity.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Stormprince
Dragonlance is a world of fairy tales. Plain and simple. Now, I'm talking about both the "real" fairy tales, like those found in the original Grimm's Fairy Tales, the folk tales of Russia (Babba Yaga) and the British Isles (King Arthur, Taliesen, etc.) as well as the "modern mythology" like that of Tolkien.
Yes, there are strange monsters in the world...things that exist in the forest, around the corner, and in the shadows...things that are scary and horrifying...and sometimes, even the most simple and mundane things can actually be the most frightening.
There shouldn't be a monster, just because. There shouldn't be "common" magical items, just because. Everything should have a story behind it. Cam's beholder is an excellent example of how a "common" (or uncommon, as the case may be) creature becomes more than just a set of statistics because of an interesting back story.
Okay...I know I've said it a few times...but I'm gonna say it again:
The more I "speak" with you and Jamie (and of course Margaret)...the more I realize that Dragonlance is in very capable hands. And of course I already trust all the folks on the Whitestone Council...even if we all don't always see eye-to-eye. :D
Thank you.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
One of the things Andre and I hope to accomplish with the Bestiary of Krynn apart from giving fans a whole slew of monsters is to provide some good advice and suggestions for how to use existing monsters in your Dragonlance campaign. The gods and the Graygem are all very forgiving of freak occurances of monsters, for example, which enables a Dungeon Master to use strange creatures once in a while without making Krynn seem populated by an incredibly vast array of creatures whose ability to live together stretches the bounds of sanity.
Not that it really matters, but perhaps you'll find this reassuring...
I think this is a good plan, Cam.
Originally posted by Brimstone
Okay...I know I've said it a few times...but I'm gonna say it again:
The more I "speak" with you and Jamie (and of course Margaret)...the more I realize that Dragonlance is in very capable hands. And of course I already trust all the folks on the Whitestone Council...even if we all don't always see eye-to-eye. :D
Thank you.
Thanks Brimstone...we're trying our best ;)
Remember, we're not doing this project for the money (we're not one of the big companies making the big bucks...yet
), so the entire Dragonlance project is really a labor of love. All of us involved, from Margaret, Jamie and I to the guys on the Whitestone Council, are doing this because we love Dragonlance and want to make sure that it remains a setting that inspires others to dream Heck, most of us are fan boys done good ;)Christopher
I'm sorry that I can't thank you all in person this year at GenCon...I was really hoping to meet everyone this time. Perhaps next year though.
This year...I'll just have to have Trampas say "hi" to everyone for me.
Originally posted by Cam Banks
One of the things Andre and I hope to accomplish with the Bestiary of Krynn apart from giving fans a whole slew of monsters is to provide some good advice and suggestions for how to use existing monsters in your Dragonlance campaign. The gods and the Graygem are all very forgiving of freak occurances of monsters, for example, which enables a Dungeon Master to use strange creatures once in a while without making Krynn seem populated by an incredibly vast array of creatures whose ability to live together stretches the bounds of sanity.
I was just thinking the other day that I hope your article on how to incorporate various monsters into the Dragonlance Saga finds its way into the bestiary.
Will I still have my kodragons? I mean, I don't mind any revamp on the backstory, but the creature itself is an excellent improved familiar. ;)
Cheers,
Cam
Imagine...the Kodragonslayer prestige class! :D
Hey, at least it isn't as bad as Andre's Kodragonspawn. ;)
Kodragons are basically (in terms of powers and abilities) simply a good version of imps. I wouldn't mind renaming them either btw, if that's the big issue. I just like them for what they can do. Opposable thumbs, a little pouch of holding, and a little breath weapon that casts "reduce". A pretty sweet familiar if you ask me.
Originally posted by ferratus
I'll never understand why Sea Dragons, Amphi Dragons, and Shadow Dragons are so accepted on Krynn, but Kodragons are so hated. I mean, at least these guys are just summoned creatures from the Astral Plane. The other three are native creatures that mess with the Good vs. Evil axis for dragonkind.
Kodragons are basically (in terms of powers and abilities) simply a good version of imps. I wouldn't mind renaming them either btw, if that's the big issue. I just like them for what they can do. Opposable thumbs, a little pouch of holding, and a little breath weapon that casts "reduce". A pretty sweet familiar if you ask me.
I think it is their connection to the astral dragons, combined with the idea of them being miniature dragons. *shrugs*
Honestly, I could see some dragonettes in DL (i.e. fairy dragons, pseudo-dragons, etc.).
Remove the cape and cowl from Ace the Batdog.
Do a movie in which you take the nothing lameass character of Toad and turn him into an acrobatic disgusting kickass mutant. It's all good. Originally posted by ferratus
I don't see the problem with Astral dragons either. I mean, remove the horrible backstory, and that stupid "chained together they become godlike" and what you've got is a summonable celestial.
Agreed. I absolutely hated that 'chained together' nonsense.
Originally posted by jonesy
Agreed. I absolutely hated that 'chained together' nonsense.
9 out of 10 kodragons also hate the chained together nonsense. No surveys are in yet from astral dragons, who at this time are busily trying to improve their public image by appearing on such shows as "Justice League" and "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe" with savage expressions and surly looks.
Cheers,
Cam
Originally posted by Cam Banks
9 out of 10 kodragons also hate the chained together nonsense. No surveys are in yet from astral dragons, who at this time are busily trying to improve their public image by appearing on such shows as "Justice League" and "He-Man and the Masters of the Universe" with savage expressions and surly looks.
All right Cam, you can crap on me, because I usually deserve it. But now you're just acting like an arrogant little ass. Grow up a bit huh? This is coming from me here. I mean, that's like Bill Clinton lecturing people about propriety.
If you don't have anything constructive to add, at least be funny instead of merely annoyingly condescending and sarcastic. What's gotten into you in the last few months anyway?
Originally posted by ferratus
All right Cam, you can crap on me, because I usually deserve it. But now you're just acting like an arrogant little ass. Grow up a bit huh? This is coming from me here. I mean, that's like Bill Clinton lecturing people about propriety.
If you don't have anything constructive to add, at least be funny instead of merely annoyingly condescending and sarcastic. What's gotten into you in the last few months anyway?
Terry, Cam wasn't being sarcastic, condescending, or anything of the sort. He made a joke, that's all. Take a breather, grab an adult beverage of your choice (Coke for me), and relax.
Really, kodragons are an easy target. It's a dragon, yet it is cute and cuddly. Kodragons have a breath weapon that shrinks you, plus a "pouch of holding".
It's easy enough to make fun of them. Just this afternoon, I was thinking of kodragonslayers, kodragon disciples, etc.
Actually, that would be an interesting topic for another thread - redefining the kodragon.
Anyway, sit back, relax, and have a brew (or soda!).
The behavior is recent too, only in the last half year. It is quite distressing, especially given that this is in effect, a place to commercially advertise Dragonlance. Keeping on your best behavior is important for general ettiquette of course, but it is especially important if you are one of the designers of the setting.
As for my behavior, please don't let my occasional dry humor come across as condescension. I'm not an ill-mannered, spiteful, bad-tempered nor unfriendly person and try not to give that impression online or in person.
Off to enjoy a long weekend,
Cam
Originally posted by ferratus
Eh, it's not just here. It's his general behavior. The snide little understated insults, the general smug attitude. You can disagree with someone without trying to insinuate that they don't have anything worth saying. If it was just me, I'd chalk it up to just a conflict of personality between myself and Cam, but I've noticed it turned against others too, some much younger than himself.
The behavior is recent too, only in the last half year. It is quite distressing, especially given that this is in effect, a place to commercially advertise Dragonlance. Keeping on your best behavior is important for general ettiquette of course, but it is especially important if you are one of the designers of the setting.
Whatever the case, the boards are not the place for this discussion.
Feel free to e-mail me in private, or you may wish to discuss this with Cam in private.
Cheers!
Mind you, I once played in a game with that type of rule, but it was the 2nd edition Council of Wyrms setting.