| Post/Author/DateTime | Post |
|---|---|
| #1player1Jul 02, 2003 4:40:40 | Several days ago, I've heard that Archmage's Spell Power got changed in revised DMG. It's now simple +1 caster level, not bonus to DC. In the same time, I remembered that current terrain modifier system is similar to old Spell Power. And then, I got idea for very simple Defiler/Preserver system. Let's call it "it's all in caster levels" system. In normal circumstances, both preservers and defilers are dependent from the area they cast spells. So in some areas with low amount of plant life they get caster level penalty. It applies to all things, like SR checks, dispel checks, duration, amount of damage dealt, etc... If penalty drops caster level to 0 or -1 consider it to be same as 1st caster level, exempt that in case of -1 penalty, wizard is unable in casting 1st level spells. |
| #2nytcrawlrJul 02, 2003 10:43:34 | Hmmm, I like it. I'll send it off the other peeps and see what they say. |
| #3player1Jul 02, 2003 14:43:48 | Here is one variant that can be handy. Variant rule: Caster levels for "buff" spells For some people it can be troublesome to remember on which terrain some "buff" spell is casted. But, that info is important since caster level (needed for dispel and other effects) depends form terrain used. To streamline and simplify things use standard caster level for preservers (like casting in infertile terrain), while for defilers use +1 caster level (like using full-round casting on infertile terrain). |
| #4zombiegleemaxJul 02, 2003 14:53:37 | ooooo, Its pretty. I like a lot. It combines the things I like most from my system, with the things that the D3e team thinks are important. Just one nit pick tho. When you say defilers and preservers perhaps you should instead say "when a wizard defiles" and "when a wizard preserves" =) Vote "YES!!" to more grey areas in magic!! |
| #5Shei-NadJul 02, 2003 15:01:41 | Hmm... interesting... I like the idea of the different advantages of preserving vs defiling. It does also give the preserver an incentive to defile. The casting time adjustement is nice, and I think it really fits well the gathering of energy aspect of the Dark Sun setting. I thought of something very similar in the past, but there seemed to be one big problem concerning balance: Giving a free higher caster level to spells when on lush terrain, even when raising the casting time, should be unbalacing, as the Heighten Spell feat does exactly that, but increases the spell slot requirement as well, and a sorcerer also has his casting time increased when he does so. As such, that feat becomes almost irrelevant, and quite less powerful than the defiling ability. I don't know. Wizards are disadvantaged in Dark Sun though, for many setting reasons, which also affect mechanics (spell repertoire for one thing should be much more limited). Would this really be too unbalancing... hmm... One thing though: I don't understand the difference between casting as a full round action and a full round casting. I'm pretty good with mechanics, and I'm pretty sure its the same thing. Both would take up one full round, allowing only a 5ft step. Duration of the spell would not change anything, and should not change anything. Maybe you meant instant spells cast at full round actions and full round action spells cast with an additionnal full round action? In that case, I don't think the original casting time should have 1 action spells be less powerful than full round spells. Not by it alone anyways. |
| #6player1Jul 02, 2003 17:51:51 | Originally posted by Shei-Nad Actualy Heighten is not a close to caster level. Highten increases spells DC and actual level, while this increases caster level. Heightening Fireball gives bonus to DC, whiel incresing caster level gives bonus to damage, SR pentration, but not to DC. Don't worry about lush terrain that much. Look what happens at barren and desolate terrain. Preserver is there in advantage and both terrains are more common then lush terrain. Originally posted by Shei-Nad Full round action is the way how sorcerror metamagic works. Spell in cast instantly at your turn and you can take only 5ft. Same as full-attack for fighting types. Full-round castin is on the other hand is not instant. Casting last for whole round, and effects start at the begging of next round (before your action). I think that summoning spells work that way. |
| #7Shei-NadJul 02, 2003 20:35:04 | Originally posted by player1 Indeed. I reacted to quickly on that one. It seemed natural that caster level and DC would go together, but that's not the case. I wonder though if heightening the caster level is not more powerful an ability in the long run... But there are feats (In race of faerun) who always grant a bonus caster level to some spells... hmm... The more I think of it, the more I think this holds out pretty nice.
Really??? Anyone else can confirm that??? I always thought sorcerer metamagics increased the casting time to a full round (or more) and worked the same as the summon monster spell, for example. If that's true, I've been doing it wrong all along! :D |
| #8xlorepdarkhelm_dupJul 03, 2003 0:54:10 | Wow, simple, direct and to the point. Keeps DS flavor and nicely meshes with d20 rules. Honestly, I like this one. Sometimes it takes just one person coming out of left field to come up with a very workable solution. |
| #9nytcrawlrJul 03, 2003 1:00:52 | Too bad one of our balance gurus thinks it's broken to all high heaven, but feel free to use in your campaigns. |
| #10player1Jul 03, 2003 2:39:12 | So why don't he post the problems and maybe it could be worked out? Which parts are problematic? |
| #11player1Jul 03, 2003 2:42:41 | And here is one very simplified version of the system: Pereserver is same as PHB wizard. Defiler is also the sam as PHB wizard, but can opt to use full-round castijng in order to get +1 bonus to his caster level. P.S. Just say that this is "broken". ;) |
| #12player1Jul 03, 2003 3:02:33 | To others: Does anybody have any idea why would someone from staff athas.org think that it's "broken to all high heaven"? I'm really trying to make a workable system (or at least base, which can be balanced and tweaked later). Is it high caster difference between good and bad terain? Is it use of full-round action? Somthing else? |
| #13player1Jul 03, 2003 3:45:48 | Originally posted by player1 When we are at this, Could this simplified ability actualy be added as part of current official mechnaic? The flaw of original system is lack of tempatation. Adding this could just give us what is needed. |
| #14wintergreenJul 03, 2003 7:26:49 | "So why don't he post the problems and maybe it could be worked out? Which parts are problematic?" So do you think we'll get an answer on this? Generally it seems balance gurus have trouble actually saying what the problem is with a proposal so I for one would be interested in finding out what the problems are. One question from me about this proposed system - how does the quicken spell feat work with this? |
| #15nytcrawlrJul 03, 2003 7:59:06 | Originally posted by player1 I'll agree with you there, not sure how that could be broken. |
| #16nytcrawlrJul 03, 2003 8:01:57 | Originally posted by player1 Subject: [ds3docs] Re: New terrain system to check out for magic At 10:49 AM 7/2/2003 -0500, you wrote: >Player1 is at it again... > >http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=642909#post642909 > >I think I like this. Any system that "by default" lowers caster level distorts the damage a spellcaster will cause. At low levels (1st through 3rd), this system breaks because a 3rd level character (preserver) could have a -2 caster level penalty on damage causing spells; in essence, their magic missile causes as much damage as a magic missile from a 1st level character. Thus, the 3rd level character can't overcome opponents which have an EL near their character level. When you break encounter levels, you break CR, you break d20. We can't release a broken game! Theoretically, the only way to make a mechanic like this *less* broken (but still broken), is to phase in the caster level penalty gradually; e.g. a 20th level caster might get a -3 caster level penalty, but a 4th level wizard gets only gets a -1 caster level penalty, for the same terrain conditions. This way the system is still distorted, but the distortion is spread out more evenly among levels 1-20, instead of completely hammering low level casters. Paul |
| #17player1Jul 03, 2003 15:37:26 | Originally posted by Wintergreen Simple. You get same modifiers as when using standard action for casting spells. Nyt: Thanks for posting response by Paul. But I have some things to add. Gradual change of caster levels (as Paul suggested), is not good suggestion either, since it hampers SR and Dispel checks. To keep CRatings in check, anything that modifies SR and dispel checks should be constant, and thus caster level change would need to be constant (fixed number), not gradual. . Also, one other thing need to be noted. If caster level change is very small, like +1/-1, it's too small to modify any CR or EL in any resonable way. For example let's have one 5th level wizard and one 6th level wizard. Let's say that 5th level wizard has +1bonus to caster levels. Is he as good as 6th level wizard? No, although some of his spells would be as good as for 6th level wizard, it has one HD less of hp, less spells per day, less equipment, etc... In every way, he is not good enough to get EL of 6. If that was 6th vs 7th wizard comparasion, it would be even more in favor of 7th level wizard (due to new level of spells) On the other hand, that wizard is still better then ordinary 5th level wizard. Somewere around EL of 5.25-5.5 (5.5 on lower levels and 5.25 at higher levels). So if defiler could get small caster level boost (no more then +1), and only if some situational modifier is met and some actions are taken, the EL would be pulled down to somehwere around 5.1 or less. But since, there is defiler radius to consider too it could be as good as EL of 5. P.S. I'll try to work out some things about this system and post different version later. |
| #18wintergreenJul 04, 2003 6:47:01 | I don't think I'm following the reasoning here. The view seems to be that things that change the caster level affect the ECL of the caster which means that what is an appropriate challenge changes so you couldn't apply the CR system as is to the situation and so we can't use any system that modifies caster level. Is that right? But then it's been pointed out that a +/-1 modifier doesn't make that much of a difference. So is that acceptable? If so does a +/-2 modifier make a significant difference? Does the fact that such would come into effect in unusual circumstances (ie rare terrain types) make it more acceptable/balanced? Is it really so unsettling given that a same level CR is supposed to mean that an average party of that level would use up 25% of their resources to overcome the opponent and the XP award can be modified by the DM if they believe that the encounter was more difficult/easier? So there's a lot of leeway in the system. (Enough that when you get down to it, the CR system is rather unsystematic and vague- but that's a different issue I guess). Maybe I've not understood the reasons given. If so, maybe somebody could re-explain them in simple terms for simple souls? AS for the quicken spell point, given that the system seems to rest on the notion of gathering time for spells (and being able to extend it for other results) then the notion of an instantaneously gathered and cast spell doesn't seem to fit well. (If you assume that it is simultaneous gathering and casting you get the same problem I think). So if a wizard can gather a standard amount of energy instantaneously with the feat then could they extend the casting time of that by defiling more say so that they then get two defiling powered spells cast in their action? |
| #19zombiegleemaxJul 04, 2003 8:03:26 | I'd keep Preserver = PHB. So far as the defiler goes, I like the way it works but... I' would't add the modifiers to effective caster level. There is a balance issue there. My idea would be to double the bonuses and apply them to the caster's Intelligence score for the purposes of memorising spells. That is, a defiler doesn't get any better save DCs but they can cast more spells in fertile areas. It takes a bit more bookwork, some of their extra spells could only be used in fertile areas. You'd have to record which bonus spells came from which slot. Lower intelligence defilers would also be able to use higher level spells than a preserver of the same intelligence, if they take the time to gather the energy properly. There's probably an argument actually for splitting the bonus between bonus spell ranks and maximum spell level, rather than just applying it to Intelligence, so +2 means your Intelligence counts as 4 points higher for working out bonus spells but only 2 points higher for working out what level spells you can cast. That way you don't have defilers running around casting spells 4 levels higher than their intelligence would normally allow. It is a little more complicated, in practice. Effectively, it means that defilers' access to their spell slots is variable. You'd probably memorise spells assuming +2 bonus and then just jot down +1 or +2 next to spells which required this sort of modifier to cast or -1 or -2 if the spells could not be accessed with that modifier. But it does capute te idea that defiling is easier. |
| #20zombiegleemaxJul 04, 2003 11:18:15 | I've a question (I know, don't roll your eyes too much) Why would it really matter from wha terrain you cast spell in? Non mechanically, you'd only be forced to draw power from a larger area in order to fuel a spell in less fertile terrain. Of course, it doesn't apply in areas of no vegetation. Some one else I know had the idea of giving defilers some kind of (very minor) boots that can be applied to any spells they cast. Rather like 'lesser metamagic feats'. For example, a defiler can chose to use lesser empower on a spell, boosting it by say 20% instead of 50% (more mathmatically challenging, but not so much as to be a pain). Offset this with penalties that a defiler gains by constant defiling (currpting of the soul, taint, or whatever). Lesser empowering (or defiler empowering, which sounds much better) can be done on the fly to any spell (or, if its too much, a certain number of times per day). As the defiler gains in levels, he gains access to more empowering abilities via feats (defiler enlarge grants a 25% or 50% increase to range, rather than 100%). The offsetting drawbacks would be things like "defiler's back begins to hunch, -1 to reflex saves" or "defiler radiates tainted evil, -2 to all cha based skills and +2 intimidate", and would more apply to PC defilers than NPCs (since the DM can more easily compensate with items and magic items any severe penalties). Difference between defiler and preserver would be that preservers can gain regular metamagic feats, defilers can't. Incentive for preserver to defile would be the lesser boosts on the fly. The system doesn't work as 'behind the scenes' system (which I'm not particularly fond of since it rather ruins flavor). Not my ideas, but they don't seem too crappy. Probably overpowered, but the numbers are tweakable or even scaleable (defiler enlarge may start at 10% and work up to 20% after a few levels). I just wanted to pass along the idea to everyone since the fellow doesn't have online access. I've not worked with it at all, but the self tailoring aspect has an appeal to me. |
| #21player1Jul 05, 2003 6:51:25 | New version: Very simple variant Defiler/Preserver system ("nerfed" edition) Tell me what you think. |