I'll start off by naming some that I would like to see:
-Templar PrC's for each SK
- a Warrior-Templar
- a Magic Intense Templar
- a Defiling Ranger PrC
- a Veilled Alliance PrC (maybe just use the Guild Mage from TaB)
- a Hermit Cleric (w/ lots of outdoorsy stuff)
- a War Defiler PrC
- a Defiler PrC that lets you preserve, sometimes.
- a Slave-Tribe Brute PrC
One thing about prestige classes of late that is becoming a larger concern, and there are currently several lengthy essays and discussions about them. If your going to design a prestige class, especially for Dark Sun where flavor is of the utmost importance rather than mechanics, is that you keep them prestigeous. Just because you can think of an 'adaptive subarchetype' (wrap your brain around that one, eh?), doesn't neccesarily mean you need to develope a prestige class for it.
I've been kicking around a kind of mini system that really sets some things apart from prestige classes. For one, they're becoming a little over used. There is no prestige in picking up a prestige class; on the contrary, they're becoming quite the norm, to the point actually of almost becoming expected. I was picking up a few books at the local (and only) hobby store in the area and overheard a few people getting ready to start an open d20 gaming session there (the store hosts them nightly, first come first served kind of thing). The players were just beginning to create characters for their first session and every single one of them was talking about what prestige classes they were 'gearing their character' towards. The future arcane devotee (from FR) was dumping his skill points into Knowledge (religion) "To get them out of the way for later," he said.
I nearly choked on my coffee. (yes, I spend enough time nitpicking what books to pick up that I need regular caffinee boots just to keep browsing).
What happened to needing to be recruited into a group that teaches a certain prestige class? Learning from some lone hermit? Or uncovering such information and training from forgotten lore?
I don't mean to rant so much on this
really, but just keep it in mind when making a prestige class. First, can it be done with feats (less limiting, more freedom). If it can, write up the exact same flavor text you would have if you were making a prestige class, then give an example of the 'feat path' that one normally would undertake during his career. I saw a write up for a 'Master Archer' once. Hmmm . . . looks like the same thing can be done with feats by any fighter. Maybe even toss in a few deviations or branches in the path to differentiate between foot archers and mounted archers. Now we've got two 'virtual prestige classes' where as the original was exclusively a foot archer. A thrid path representing a more defensive archer that branches of the main path? Feat paths = 3; Prestige class= 0. Oh, but we could just make 3 whole entirely new prestige classes, but they would seem very, very similar to one another and hence non of the 3 would stand out amongst the other and they'd all look stupid and unpresentable to a degree. Most of the abilities gained from prestige classes can easily be incorperated as feats. There are some that this cannot be done with, and that's I think what the prestige classes should be for.Also, Prestige classes are normaly part of some group or orgnization of some kind (tribe, cult, church, sageocracy, etc.). But they way prestige classes are being handled currently, you need the level to be accepted into the group, not the roleplaying aspects that should go with attempting to join the group. And just because you've joined The Almighty and Powerful High Bard's Singing Quartet, shouldn't necessarily mean that your next character level should be spent (or wasted, depends on opinion) on a level of the Quartet's prestige class, just to stay in key with the other 3 weirdos.
Okay, I'm done ranting, really. I like prestige classes. Really. I think they're awesome. I just don't like having 50,000 prestige classes that aren't needed and just plain bite, and only 3 or 4 really awesome ones that no one can do without. End of rant. Promise ;)
Hopefully, the PrCs I as well as Jon and others have done accomplish that.
If not, please let us know, because I agree with every bit of what you said. Just wish I could beat it into my players.
"No! I need 5 PrCs before I hit 20th level, that is the way the game is deisgned, it's designed to min max and I should be able to have as many PrCs as I want as long as I make the requirments."
etc
etc
ad infintum and shotgun to head
You've identified two issues, one of whcih I contend is not an issue at all, once the first one is worked out.
First: PrCs as Commodities --
I'm gonna lay the blame here squarely on the shoulders of those who are responsible for that view-point: DM's, [b]not[/b] players. It's because of one thing and one thing only: DM's aren't making them prestigious enough, PrC's have gone from oh so cool enhancements for roleplaying to the equivalent of required feats simply because DM's don't enforce the roleplaying work needed to officially qualify for them. PrCs are being treated as a commodity simply because they are being treated as the roleplaying equivalent of a base class, something you get because you want it, not because you earned it. You'll hear less and less people talking about picking up multiple prestige classes when DM's start getting off of their laurels and integrating the accompanying organizations into thier worlds and making them (at least somewhat) effective agents of change w/in the scope of the campaign, whether for good or ill.
When players start to see PrCs as membership in guilds, which come with thier own benefits and hinderances, then you'll see people picking up fewer PrCs and treating them more as the prestigious accomplishments that they really are.
Second: 50,000 PrCs
This 'problem' quite easily takes care of itself, as you can see in the above point. If the DM starts making it hard for PCs to select PrCs by enforcing the 'group membership' ideal that PrCs are supposed to represent, then having 50,000 or even 546,348,908,993.75 (that's five hudred fourty-six billion, three hundred fourty-eight million, nine hundred eight thousand, nine hundred nintey-three and seventy five hundreths
) choices aren't going to matter a whit. Especially not when the PCs have to figure out who likes whom and who is an enemy and who prohibits memberships in other 'guilds' - the Templarate comes to mind on that one - and so on. I say, let there be 5.46e11 different PrCs, all that does is give choices to players who would like to specialize in a particular aspect. of their character. I would be willing to bet that there are as many potential PrCs out there as there are players, if not more. Who are we to crtitsize what way someone else wants to play? If they're having a good time, let them be and let's turn our thoughts to more productive things, like making sure that people have well thought out, balanced, fun-to-play, and most of all, prestigious PrCs.
To that end, I'm going to re-iterate my list, but back it up with reasons why something should be on it:
-Templar PrC's for each SK
- a Warrior-Templar
- a Magic Intense Templar
Templars are a NEW base class, as such, there is an actual need for templar PrCs. The warrior type and the studious type fill roles (read specialties) needed by sorcerer kings to directly increase their personal power. Having and individual PrC for each SK fills a need for flavor in the campaign setting.
- a Defiling Ranger PrC
This one, and the hermit cleric one, below, run counter to common wisdom about PrCs. On Athas, both classes tend to be 'outside' the system or, at the very least, are organised only loosely, thereby shortcircuting the normal meaning of the word Prestige. Still, there is a niche here to be filled: The Angry Ranger archetype and the Self-sufficient Cleric archetype. Both can be made difficult to aquire in ways other than the 'membership' paradigm.
- a Veilled Alliance PrC (maybe just use the Guild Mage from TaB)
This one should be a no-brainer. The VA is a collection of like minded people with one purpose, to allow for the freedom of use of their particular specialty, Arcane Magic, to that end, they are neither good, nor evil, and need a PrC to fulfill a role as Beneficiary to all that the VA has to offer, the Guild Mage works perfectly in that regard.
- a Hermit Cleric (w/ lots of outdoorsy stuff)
- a War Defiler PrC
The same thinking that went into the Templars goes w/ this one.
- a Defiler PrC that lets you preserve, sometimes.
SK's need spies, this one should be exceptionally hard to get into.
- a Slave-Tribe Brute PrC
There is a need for a leader brute type w/ some social skills.
Oh, and there is one last reason why we need our own PrCs: everything we put out can only depend on these materials: PHB, DMG, MM and DS3 core. Why? because I know lots of people who only have one or two of these books, and can't afford to go out buying new books just for one neat PrC or somesuch, nor should we have them going over all of the dark and dirty corners of the internet to find something that may or may not exist tomorrow. We need to develop our own PrC, offered freely on Athas.org, so as to be collected in one spot so that people only have to go to one or two different places to get their DS fix.
Have I addressed your complaints sufficiently so that we can get back to the discussion of what PrCs does Athas need?
Now, onto the wish list ;)
(Oh, and I did not mean to dis either Nyt or Jon there, you guys both have really cool and integral PrCs going on)
Although I don't like limiting the actual membership of a PrC to a certain race, racial 'inspired' PrCs do a fine job of fleshing out a particular race's background. Pterran aerial fighters hopping onto pterrax or razorwing mounts, etc. Such PrCs might be more easily accessible to members of the innitial race, but there's no reason why a dwarf couldn't become a kreen slayer.
Also, PrCs that present unique twists to the core concepts, like an evil druid who seeks to 'control' the land, not be subjected to the whim of the spirits.
PrCs that may 'enhance' a particularly weak weapon idea (akin to the master of chains or lasher) but for Dark Sun specific weapons are always cool too.
Something for those who actually do skip on their rent payments to pick up more game books: a list of acceptable PrCs from other sources that could be adapted into Dark Sun, at least from WOTC sources if not (eventually) from other publishers. Adjusted flavor text for those that may be OGL (there's not many). Such a list could be more inspiring even if one doesn't have the particular resources.
Originally posted by Star Gazer
First: PrCs as Commodities --
I'm gonna lay the blame here squarely on the shoulders of those who are responsible for that view-point: DM's, [b]not players. It's because of one thing and one thing only: DM's aren't making them prestigious enough, PrC's have gone from oh so cool enhancements for roleplaying to the equivalent of required feats simply because DM's don't enforce the roleplaying work needed to officially qualify for them. PrCs are being treated as a commodity simply because they are being treated as the roleplaying equivalent of a base class, something you get because you want it, not because you earned it. You'll hear less and less people talking about picking up multiple prestige classes when DM's start getting off of their laurels and integrating the accompanying organizations into thier worlds and making them (at least somewhat) effective agents of change w/in the scope of the campaign, whether for good or ill.[/b]
I'm going to totally agree with you here, but trying to explain this to my players and letting them see this is a entirely different matter alltogether.
Trust me, I've tried to enforce this.
Templar PrC's for each SK
We've pretty much decided that this needs to be done.
a Defiling Ranger PrC
I would love to see something like this too, in fact I may start work on one today, unless you already have some ideas on it, if so send me an email and let's put our heads together.
- a Veilled Alliance PrC (maybe just use the Guild Mage from TaB)
Pretty sure Jon had this one cooked up already, if not there are plans to.
- a Hermit Cleric (w/ lots of outdoorsy stuff)
- a War Defiler PrC
I like these ideas as well.
- a Defiler PrC that lets you preserve, sometimes.
I like the idea, not sure it fits thematically though.
- a Slave-Tribe Brute PrC
Another good idea.
Oh, and there is one last reason why we need our own PrCs: everything we put out can only depend on these materials: PHB, DMG, MM and DS3 core.
Agreed.
Have I addressed your complaints sufficiently so that we can get back to the discussion of what PrCs does Athas need?
Yes.
Originally posted by Kamelion
Myrmeleon (defiler masquerading as preserver)
Doh! Forgot about that one.
So I guess it does fit thematically, hehe.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Although I don't like limiting the actual membership of a PrC to a certain race, racial 'inspired' PrCs do a fine job of fleshing out a particular race's background. Pterran aerial fighters hopping onto pterrax or razorwing mounts, etc. Such PrCs might be more easily accessible to members of the innitial race, but there's no reason why a dwarf couldn't become a kreen slayer.
I agree, but am willing to stick with precedence and let individual DMs work that part out.
Also, PrCs that present unique twists to the core concepts, like an evil druid who seeks to 'control' the land, not be subjected to the whim of the spirits.
Closest thing I can think of to this is a blighter from MotW, but it's different, they are actually into destroying the land and using that for their own gain. So blighter could go on the list of what could be used in DS.
PrCs that may 'enhance' a particularly weak weapon idea (akin to the master of chains or lasher) but for Dark Sun specific weapons are always cool too.
Ooh chatka master, or however you spell it, and something for the wrist razor wearing freaks.
Although, I'm not sure those are some of the weaker weapons of Athas, hehe.
Something for those who actually do skip on their rent payments to pick up more game books: a list of acceptable PrCs from other sources that could be adapted into Dark Sun
I'm sure we could do this and compile the list to what all books everyone has and add to it from there.
MoTW?
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Acronym freaks
MoTW?
Masters of the Wild
One nifty idea I had was to where they could summon an elemental, rather than a warhorse.
Just a thought.
http://darksun.3sins.com/3e/3e_prestige.htm
Most seem okay, my only big beef would be with the weapon devotee's last skill of improved threat range. A 13-20 threat range (granted only a potential number under the right circumstances) is a bit much. Otherwise, a cool general idea. You could easily branch it after 5th level for more specific weapon focuses (i.e. 5 levels of devotee then off to calhulak mastery, chatchka mastery, etc.).
I'm sure there's a few other quips, but in general, most seem to be pretty darn good.
Nyt's mention of the blighter reminded me of a book I glanced at before called Blight Magic (from Mind's Eye Games). It looked crappy (bad art, bad typeset) but after reading the blighter, I picked it up (11.95 usd, 56 pages). Fits right in with expanding the blighter druid concept. The blighter (any spellcaster, not just a druid) defiles the land and gains power that can be used to boost spells and other abilities while slowly being corrupted by the foul magics they use. Seems to fit Athas perfectly ;). Anyhow, end of shameless plug.
Originally posted by Mach2.5
Nyt's mention of the blighter reminded me of a book I glanced at before called Blight Magic (from Mind's Eye Games). It looked crappy (bad art, bad typeset) but after reading the blighter, I picked it up (11.95 usd, 56 pages). Fits right in with expanding the blighter druid concept. The blighter (any spellcaster, not just a druid) defiles the land and gains power that can be used to boost spells and other abilities while slowly being corrupted by the foul magics they use. Seems to fit Athas perfectly ;). Anyhow, end of shameless plug.
Yeah, I've got that, need to read it more thouroughly though. Great accessory form what I've read so far. I also happened to like the art work, gave it that nice touch.
That gives me an idea, that evil ranger that despoiled the land idea Roger/Stargazer gave, make it a Ranger PrC that defiles, has a few manifester levels in defiler that is. Though with the idea we have for the ranger currently we could just keep as is and give him some cool evil ranger abilities.
/me ponders