Yet Another Preserver/Defiler System - Downloaded from the Wizards Community, all coding removed by Solauren

Yet Another Preserver/Defiler System

Post/Author/DateTime Post
#1
zombiegleemax
Jul 05, 2003 19:23:31 Yeah like we really need another one! But here we go anyway. This idea intrigued me as to my untrained eye it seemed to tick all the boxes.

Anyway, preservers = PHB wizards.

Defilers = PHB wizards but...

...for the purposes of calculating what spell level they can cast and what bonus spells they get there Intelligence counts as 4 points higher. This doesn't affect save DCs, skills or anything like that, just spell memorisation. Defiling is easier.

...defiling to cast a spell causes subdual damage, 1 point per spell level. Essentially, the power ripped from plant life by defiling is rawer and less controlled than preserved energy and is tiring to use.

However, defilers get a damage resistance to this damage equal to the base Fortitude save bonus for their defiler levels. So a 3rd-level defiler gets 1 point of damage resistance to defiling damage. Constitution and other class levels do not affect this in any way, only defiler levels.

Now, a wizard can take levels in both the preserver and defiler classes. To all intents and purposes these levels stack. Basically, work out what spells the wizard can memorise considering just his preserver levels. These spells are cast as normal. Then add any spell slots for the extra levels provided by the defiler class and bonus spells for the defiler Intelligence bonus. These spells have to be cast by defiling. The same goes for any spells of so high a level that they can only be cast by virtue of the defiler Intelligence bonus.

So long as a wizard has one level as a defiler he gains the benefit of the Intelligence bonus. But he will have a pretty poor damage resistance against the damage sustained from defiling. However, a wizard with at least one defiler level can swap preserver levels for defiler levels. This can be done at any time and the wizard immediately gains the damage resistance for doing so. It just can't be easily reversed.
#2
nytcrawlr
Jul 05, 2003 22:06:00 In general I like it, but I prefer the current system for seeing when one has become a defiler and can't go back to preserving until he kisses a druid's butt.

It's way too easy the way you have it currently. I could switch back and forth with no penalty other than losing out on some of the Int and DR bonus. Only by sacrificing all my preserver levels into defiler levels do I have to deal with the druid if I want to become a preserver again.

That just doesn't fit thematically IMO.
#3
zombiegleemax
Jul 06, 2003 3:29:14 I'm not sure if I've explained it properly. You can only turn preserver levels into defiler levels automatically. To turn them back again you dp kave to suck up to the local druid.

However, if the distinction still needs to be sharper you could still have the corruption/addiction mechanic you have at the moment - although in this system it could work one level at a time.
#4
nytcrawlr
Jul 06, 2003 3:38:10
Originally posted by Afghan
I'm not sure if I've explained it properly. You can only turn preserver levels into defiler levels automatically. To turn them back again you dp kave to suck up to the local druid.

Right, I get that. However the problem is, if you don't turn the levels you have of preserver into defiler, you can continue to jump back and forth in preserver and defiler levels, hence why you still need to use the current mechanic of corruption/addiction. Otherwise I could min/max this to death and beyond and never worry about having to kiss up to a druid because I'm still considered a preserver, just a preserver with some defiler levels.
#5
zombiegleemax
Jul 06, 2003 5:53:55 Well I think the potential for min/maxing is rather limited. It's really not worth hopping backwards and forwards between the two classes. The only sensible combination really is to take a single level as a defiler to get the Intelligence bonus. There's no pay off for taking extra defiler levels in terms of the total subdual damage you'd be liable for unless you go for whole kaboodle.

Even then there are only a few combinations where you get better figures than a straight defiler. For instance, a 19th level preserver/1st level defiler takes a hit for one 8th level spell and one 9th level for a total of 17 subdual damage. The straight 20th level defiler gets a total of 24 (4 7th level spells for 4, 4 8th for 8 and 4 9th for 12).

But that's not taking account of the Intelligence bonus. Assuming an Int 18 or 19, the multi-class wizard is liable for another 14 points of damage.

A 3rd level defiler/17th level preserver is liable for 44 points of subdual damage before the Int bonus is taken into account.

But the key point is this, if you want to get the benefit of the defiler's Int bonus, you have to defile. The multi-class combination is not as powerful as a 20th level preserver if they're not willing to defile.

Now I might have slipped up on my maths and there could be some other combination of preserver/defiler levels that really does pay off, but I can't see it. Having said that, I don't see any problem with introducing the corruption mechanic, I'm just not convinced it's necessary.

[Edited because my maths was not as good as one might hope for from a maths major!]
#6
nytcrawlr
Jul 06, 2003 11:33:48
Originally posted by Afghan
Well I think the potential for min/maxing is rather limited. It's really not worth hopping backwards and forwards between the two classes. The only sensible combination really is to take a single level as a defiler to get the Intelligence bonus. There's no pay off for taking extra defiler levels in terms of the total subdual damage you'd be liable for unless you go for whole kaboodle.

Ah but you see my point.

I'm not really worried about the min/max of this in general, just the min/max that stops you from talking to a druid to remain a preserver. I think it either needs the current addiction/corruption mechanic, or something similar to keep the themantics of the setting in tact.
#7
zombiegleemax
Jul 06, 2003 15:00:18 Well if you are a straight defiler, as Keltis was, you can't just become a preserver. You need to visit your 'friendly' neighbourhood druid. The problem is with the 'tainted preserver' who gets away with a little bit of defiling in order to gain extra power. But I don't really think that this really requires a corrruption mechanic.

The real reasons for any wizard seeking out a druid should be because of character development moral reasons. These reasons are going to apply equally well to a tainted preserver as to a defiler. Any wizard who doesn't want to defile is going to be better off as a straight preserver than having any defiler levels. The tainted preserver is worse off in terms of power than the straight defiler and has to defile even just to achieve parity with the straight preserver. And they have unbalanced levels which is a problem for quite a few races or any character that wants to advance in another class.

Anyway, I think the tainted preserver is an interesting enough character concept to keep in its own right.
#8
zombiegleemax
Jul 07, 2003 9:02:18 Since the mechanic that differs defilers from preservers comes into play when memorising spells and casting, I don't see the need for seperate classes.

Have the class "wizard", then each morning when they memorise spells and gather most of the energy, the wizard chooses whether that day they'll preserve or defile. If they choose to defile they can gather more energy and memorise more spells (and also leave ash behind).

If they defiled that day when memorising spells, then the penalty of subdual damage occurs when casting.

To prevent wizards simply skipping backwards and forwards between the two methods, I'd probably use an addiction method, say an increasing Will save each time they defiled, which once failed, means the caster will ALWAYS defile, until they repent to a druid, the will save would reduce point by point each week they chose to preserve until it reaches the base (DC 10 + highest spell level memorised perhaps?). Perhaps also allow preservers to go to a druid and repent their previous defiling attempts to remove the modifiers (no auto-decay for them, otherwise things get too easy)

Example: Rathos, the 5th level preserver, is facing an upcoming battle today with a powerful force, in desperation he decides to defile and so gains +4 to Int for purposes of bonus spells. As he completes the spell memorisations he must make a Will Save (DC 13) to stop from being addicted. Assuming he passes and wins the battle easily. The next time this comes up, he's 7th level and in dire need, this time his Will Save is 15 (Base 14 + 1 for the previous time), he fails and from now on MUST defile each day when memorising spells.
#9
zombiegleemax
Jul 07, 2003 12:15:04 I am not sure about defiling at spell memorisation. I never really did like that idea, although I am not sure that this is quite what you're suggesting. Defiling should occur at the time of casting.

The other problem with this mechanic is that it gives the straight preserver an advantage over the PHB wizard (the option to defile) without balancing it against anything.

My main problem with the corruption issue is that it seems to force role-playing into the area of dice-rolling. I think the system I've described above will act as sufficient for temptation for those who want to play a character that gets corrupted by the lure of easy power without forcing the issue with a random corruption mechanic. The fact that it also allows a player to play a compromised, tainted preserver without, sooner or later, ending up as a defiler is a plus point. It's about roleplaying choice.

A corruption mechanic can very easily be included if people think it's necessary. I just feel that it should a matter for the player and their ideas about character development.

Setting aside the issue of corruption for a moment though, how do be people feel about the rest of the mechanic here?
#10
zombiegleemax
Jul 07, 2003 13:33:13 I like your original caster check method much better.

I don't like defilers and preservers as separate classes, and things get kind of sticky when you have both defiler and preserver levels. For example, your extra defiler bonus spells must be cast by defiling. This really seems like it forces the mechanics into the actual gameplay - a wizard character will somehow know that he can memorize the extra spells so long as he defiles.

Aside from the multi-classing issue, though, it seems workable. Actually, I'll go as far to say if there was no multi-classing I think it would work quite well.
#11
zombiegleemax
Jul 07, 2003 16:49:38 Hey I like my other system as well. It certainly has the best corruption mechanic going. :D And it's the one I actually use.

However, it's not really a Dungeons & Dragons system which is what I'm trying to achieve here. There are two requirements that the current waves of debate have settled on... that preservers should be PHB wizards in all but name, and that defilers should not be manifestly better than preservers. They should be as balanced as possible. This is providing we are talking about an official version.

The current official system more or less manages this but only by making the basic distinction between preserving and defiling cosmetic at best. The reason it has to do this is because of the insistence that preservers and defilers be different aspects of the same class. Essentially, if you allow preservers to defile then defiling can't offer any advantage otherwise preservers end up better than the PHB wizard. So my feeling is, as far as building a system that is true to the spirit of 3ed D&D is concerned, that the single wizard class is a bit of an albatross. It means you can't capture the idea that defiling is an easy route to power.

I think that separate classes for preservers and defilers is more in keeping with 3ed Dungeons & Dragons. The two represent such separate character concepts and are so fundamental to the setting that they really deserve their own core classes. The single class was always a bit of a con anyway. You played a preserver or a defiler. The various versions of the corruption mechanic saw to that.

As far as memorizing some spells as a defiler in this system goes, that feels right to me. The tainted preserver has chosen to take the easy route to power. He knows that his mastery of his art is not strong enough for him to cast the spells as a preserver. That is too difficult. But that is the consequence of the path he has decided to walk. And it seems quite right that he should have to multi-class to do that. He is, after all, trying to have his cake and eat it.

Yeah, as I say, personally I'd rather my first system. I think it really does capture the moral dilemma facing the preserver and creates a slippery slope to slide down. But that's not Dungeons & Dragons. I think that this system here is.
#12
zombiegleemax
Jul 08, 2003 6:29:37 I just wanted to be clear on one point... this isn't an implied criticism of the existing official system. That's perfectly satisfactory. I'm probably not even going to use this system myself... not that there are any wizards in my campaign at the moment anyway.

It's just that the abstract problem of the preserver/defiler problem is one that I keep coming back to. It's more a question of personal satisfaction in finding the answer, rather than dissatisfaction with the existing compromise. The requirements on any system are so seemingly contradictory that it's almost like a riddle. And I'm hooked!
#13
zombiegleemax
Jul 09, 2003 14:19:42 The fact that this is my third post in a row on the same thread is in danger of placing me in the crazed relative category, sitting in the corner and muttering to myself.

Anyhow, I think I've now managed to engineer out the multi-classing thing. Basically, by saying that you have to be either a defiler or a preserver. You can however switch from being a preserver to being a defiler when you advance a level. Going the other way is trickier and requires a druid.

The 'fallen preserver' is accomplished by means of a feat, Defiler Spell (probably find a better name). Basically this allows the wizard to memorise an extra spell, of any level that the wizard could cast. However, it must be cast as a defiler. This means it causes subdual damage. The defiler's DR counts against this. The preserver takes full damage, however, the defiler Int bonus does count here. The preserver can use this slot to memorise and cast a spell of up to four levels higher than his Int would normally allow him to cast. He must still be a high enough level to cast spells of that level though.

I'm still holding out on the corruption mechanic. I don't think there was ever anything very much in the literature to suggest that defiling was addictive, only a rule in Defilers & Preservers that looks to have been an afterthought to represent stuff that Sadira does in the Prism Pentad.

So does it work now?
#14
nytcrawlr
Jul 09, 2003 14:57:46 Sorry, just bored of the upteen million different ways of doing magic for DS.

But yeah, that looks a lot more resonable.

Post/Author/DateTime	Post
#1 zombiegleemax Jul 05, 2003 19:23:31	Yeah like we really need another one! But here we go anyway. This idea intrigued me as to my untrained eye it seemed to tick all the boxes. Anyway, preservers = PHB wizards. Defilers = PHB wizards but... ...for the purposes of calculating what spell level they can cast and what bonus spells they get there Intelligence counts as 4 points higher. This doesn't affect save DCs, skills or anything like that, just spell memorisation. Defiling is easier. ...defiling to cast a spell causes subdual damage, 1 point per spell level. Essentially, the power ripped from plant life by defiling is rawer and less controlled than preserved energy and is tiring to use. However, defilers get a damage resistance to this damage equal to the base Fortitude save bonus for their defiler levels. So a 3rd-level defiler gets 1 point of damage resistance to defiling damage. Constitution and other class levels do not affect this in any way, only defiler levels. Now, a wizard can take levels in both the preserver and defiler classes. To all intents and purposes these levels stack. Basically, work out what spells the wizard can memorise considering just his preserver levels. These spells are cast as normal. Then add any spell slots for the extra levels provided by the defiler class and bonus spells for the defiler Intelligence bonus. These spells have to be cast by defiling. The same goes for any spells of so high a level that they can only be cast by virtue of the defiler Intelligence bonus. So long as a wizard has one level as a defiler he gains the benefit of the Intelligence bonus. But he will have a pretty poor damage resistance against the damage sustained from defiling. However, a wizard with at least one defiler level can swap preserver levels for defiler levels. This can be done at any time and the wizard immediately gains the damage resistance for doing so. It just can't be easily reversed.
#2 nytcrawlr Jul 05, 2003 22:06:00	In general I like it, but I prefer the current system for seeing when one has become a defiler and can't go back to preserving until he kisses a druid's butt. It's way too easy the way you have it currently. I could switch back and forth with no penalty other than losing out on some of the Int and DR bonus. Only by sacrificing all my preserver levels into defiler levels do I have to deal with the druid if I want to become a preserver again. That just doesn't fit thematically IMO.
#3 zombiegleemax Jul 06, 2003 3:29:14	I'm not sure if I've explained it properly. You can only turn preserver levels into defiler levels automatically. To turn them back again you dp kave to suck up to the local druid. However, if the distinction still needs to be sharper you could still have the corruption/addiction mechanic you have at the moment - although in this system it could work one level at a time.
#4 nytcrawlr Jul 06, 2003 3:38:10	Originally posted by Afghan I'm not sure if I've explained it properly. You can only turn preserver levels into defiler levels automatically. To turn them back again you dp kave to suck up to the local druid. Right, I get that. However the problem is, if you don't turn the levels you have of preserver into defiler, you can continue to jump back and forth in preserver and defiler levels, hence why you still need to use the current mechanic of corruption/addiction. Otherwise I could min/max this to death and beyond and never worry about having to kiss up to a druid because I'm still considered a preserver, just a preserver with some defiler levels.
#5 zombiegleemax Jul 06, 2003 5:53:55	Well I think the potential for min/maxing is rather limited. It's really not worth hopping backwards and forwards between the two classes. The only sensible combination really is to take a single level as a defiler to get the Intelligence bonus. There's no pay off for taking extra defiler levels in terms of the total subdual damage you'd be liable for unless you go for whole kaboodle. Even then there are only a few combinations where you get better figures than a straight defiler. For instance, a 19th level preserver/1st level defiler takes a hit for one 8th level spell and one 9th level for a total of 17 subdual damage. The straight 20th level defiler gets a total of 24 (4 7th level spells for 4, 4 8th for 8 and 4 9th for 12). But that's not taking account of the Intelligence bonus. Assuming an Int 18 or 19, the multi-class wizard is liable for another 14 points of damage. A 3rd level defiler/17th level preserver is liable for 44 points of subdual damage before the Int bonus is taken into account. But the key point is this, if you want to get the benefit of the defiler's Int bonus, you have to defile. The multi-class combination is not as powerful as a 20th level preserver if they're not willing to defile. Now I might have slipped up on my maths and there could be some other combination of preserver/defiler levels that really does pay off, but I can't see it. Having said that, I don't see any problem with introducing the corruption mechanic, I'm just not convinced it's necessary. [Edited because my maths was not as good as one might hope for from a maths major!]
#6 nytcrawlr Jul 06, 2003 11:33:48	Originally posted by Afghan Well I think the potential for min/maxing is rather limited. It's really not worth hopping backwards and forwards between the two classes. The only sensible combination really is to take a single level as a defiler to get the Intelligence bonus. There's no pay off for taking extra defiler levels in terms of the total subdual damage you'd be liable for unless you go for whole kaboodle. Ah but you see my point. I'm not really worried about the min/max of this in general, just the min/max that stops you from talking to a druid to remain a preserver. I think it either needs the current addiction/corruption mechanic, or something similar to keep the themantics of the setting in tact.
#7 zombiegleemax Jul 06, 2003 15:00:18	Well if you are a straight defiler, as Keltis was, you can't just become a preserver. You need to visit your 'friendly' neighbourhood druid. The problem is with the 'tainted preserver' who gets away with a little bit of defiling in order to gain extra power. But I don't really think that this really requires a corrruption mechanic. The real reasons for any wizard seeking out a druid should be because of character development moral reasons. These reasons are going to apply equally well to a tainted preserver as to a defiler. Any wizard who doesn't want to defile is going to be better off as a straight preserver than having any defiler levels. The tainted preserver is worse off in terms of power than the straight defiler and has to defile even just to achieve parity with the straight preserver. And they have unbalanced levels which is a problem for quite a few races or any character that wants to advance in another class. Anyway, I think the tainted preserver is an interesting enough character concept to keep in its own right.
#8 zombiegleemax Jul 07, 2003 9:02:18	Since the mechanic that differs defilers from preservers comes into play when memorising spells and casting, I don't see the need for seperate classes. Have the class "wizard", then each morning when they memorise spells and gather most of the energy, the wizard chooses whether that day they'll preserve or defile. If they choose to defile they can gather more energy and memorise more spells (and also leave ash behind). If they defiled that day when memorising spells, then the penalty of subdual damage occurs when casting. To prevent wizards simply skipping backwards and forwards between the two methods, I'd probably use an addiction method, say an increasing Will save each time they defiled, which once failed, means the caster will ALWAYS defile, until they repent to a druid, the will save would reduce point by point each week they chose to preserve until it reaches the base (DC 10 + highest spell level memorised perhaps?). Perhaps also allow preservers to go to a druid and repent their previous defiling attempts to remove the modifiers (no auto-decay for them, otherwise things get too easy) Example: Rathos, the 5th level preserver, is facing an upcoming battle today with a powerful force, in desperation he decides to defile and so gains +4 to Int for purposes of bonus spells. As he completes the spell memorisations he must make a Will Save (DC 13) to stop from being addicted. Assuming he passes and wins the battle easily. The next time this comes up, he's 7th level and in dire need, this time his Will Save is 15 (Base 14 + 1 for the previous time), he fails and from now on MUST defile each day when memorising spells.
#9 zombiegleemax Jul 07, 2003 12:15:04	I am not sure about defiling at spell memorisation. I never really did like that idea, although I am not sure that this is quite what you're suggesting. Defiling should occur at the time of casting. The other problem with this mechanic is that it gives the straight preserver an advantage over the PHB wizard (the option to defile) without balancing it against anything. My main problem with the corruption issue is that it seems to force role-playing into the area of dice-rolling. I think the system I've described above will act as sufficient for temptation for those who want to play a character that gets corrupted by the lure of easy power without forcing the issue with a random corruption mechanic. The fact that it also allows a player to play a compromised, tainted preserver without, sooner or later, ending up as a defiler is a plus point. It's about roleplaying choice. A corruption mechanic can very easily be included if people think it's necessary. I just feel that it should a matter for the player and their ideas about character development. Setting aside the issue of corruption for a moment though, how do be people feel about the rest of the mechanic here?
#10 zombiegleemax Jul 07, 2003 13:33:13	I like your original caster check method much better. I don't like defilers and preservers as separate classes, and things get kind of sticky when you have both defiler and preserver levels. For example, your extra defiler bonus spells must be cast by defiling. This really seems like it forces the mechanics into the actual gameplay - a wizard character will somehow know that he can memorize the extra spells so long as he defiles. Aside from the multi-classing issue, though, it seems workable. Actually, I'll go as far to say if there was no multi-classing I think it would work quite well.
#11 zombiegleemax Jul 07, 2003 16:49:38	Hey I like my other system as well. It certainly has the best corruption mechanic going. :D And it's the one I actually use. However, it's not really a Dungeons & Dragons system which is what I'm trying to achieve here. There are two requirements that the current waves of debate have settled on... that preservers should be PHB wizards in all but name, and that defilers should not be manifestly better than preservers. They should be as balanced as possible. This is providing we are talking about an official version. The current official system more or less manages this but only by making the basic distinction between preserving and defiling cosmetic at best. The reason it has to do this is because of the insistence that preservers and defilers be different aspects of the same class. Essentially, if you allow preservers to defile then defiling can't offer any advantage otherwise preservers end up better than the PHB wizard. So my feeling is, as far as building a system that is true to the spirit of 3ed D&D is concerned, that the single wizard class is a bit of an albatross. It means you can't capture the idea that defiling is an easy route to power. I think that separate classes for preservers and defilers is more in keeping with 3ed Dungeons & Dragons. The two represent such separate character concepts and are so fundamental to the setting that they really deserve their own core classes. The single class was always a bit of a con anyway. You played a preserver or a defiler. The various versions of the corruption mechanic saw to that. As far as memorizing some spells as a defiler in this system goes, that feels right to me. The tainted preserver has chosen to take the easy route to power. He knows that his mastery of his art is not strong enough for him to cast the spells as a preserver. That is too difficult. But that is the consequence of the path he has decided to walk. And it seems quite right that he should have to multi-class to do that. He is, after all, trying to have his cake and eat it. Yeah, as I say, personally I'd rather my first system. I think it really does capture the moral dilemma facing the preserver and creates a slippery slope to slide down. But that's not Dungeons & Dragons. I think that this system here is.
#12 zombiegleemax Jul 08, 2003 6:29:37	I just wanted to be clear on one point... this isn't an implied criticism of the existing official system. That's perfectly satisfactory. I'm probably not even going to use this system myself... not that there are any wizards in my campaign at the moment anyway. It's just that the abstract problem of the preserver/defiler problem is one that I keep coming back to. It's more a question of personal satisfaction in finding the answer, rather than dissatisfaction with the existing compromise. The requirements on any system are so seemingly contradictory that it's almost like a riddle. And I'm hooked!
#13 zombiegleemax Jul 09, 2003 14:19:42	The fact that this is my third post in a row on the same thread is in danger of placing me in the crazed relative category, sitting in the corner and muttering to myself. Anyhow, I think I've now managed to engineer out the multi-classing thing. Basically, by saying that you have to be either a defiler or a preserver. You can however switch from being a preserver to being a defiler when you advance a level. Going the other way is trickier and requires a druid. The 'fallen preserver' is accomplished by means of a feat, Defiler Spell (probably find a better name). Basically this allows the wizard to memorise an extra spell, of any level that the wizard could cast. However, it must be cast as a defiler. This means it causes subdual damage. The defiler's DR counts against this. The preserver takes full damage, however, the defiler Int bonus does count here. The preserver can use this slot to memorise and cast a spell of up to four levels higher than his Int would normally allow him to cast. He must still be a high enough level to cast spells of that level though. I'm still holding out on the corruption mechanic. I don't think there was ever anything very much in the literature to suggest that defiling was addictive, only a rule in Defilers & Preservers that looks to have been an afterthought to represent stuff that Sadira does in the Prism Pentad. So does it work now?
#14 nytcrawlr Jul 09, 2003 14:57:46	Sorry, just bored of the upteen million different ways of doing magic for DS. But yeah, that looks a lot more resonable.