From reading over 100 some-odd books in DL, I get a mixed feeling about the Ogre race. Seemingly stupid and barbaric in some books, but yet intelligent in others. We see ogres attain very high levels as magic casting wizards, yet we see ogres barely able to speak coherently. How is this usually explained? Just some clans are more intelligent? The upper class vs lower class? Have they simply degenerated over the thousands of years while in Ansalon? I'd like to prefer to see ogres as intelligent and very capable. So which is it??
Originally posted by Slapstick_80
From reading over 100 some-odd books in DL, I get a mixed feeling about the Ogre race. Seemingly stupid and barbaric in some books, but yet intelligent in others. We see ogres attain very high levels as magic casting wizards, yet we see ogres barely able to speak coherently. How is this usually explained? Just some clans are more intelligent? The upper class vs lower class? Have they simply degenerated over the thousands of years while in Ansalon? I'd like to prefer to see ogres as intelligent and very capable. So which is it??
Both. Just like any other race there are all kinds of individuals, from heroes to fools, morons to wizards, incompetent to brilliant.
This is a common problem with many of Dragonlance's races. Kender come across as "Tas clones", minotaurs are all honorable warriors, and gnomes are made on the assembly line (well, autognomes are at least ;) ).
This is something I would like to see change in DL. I'd like to see gnome mages, kender paladins, and minotaur druids (and so on, and so forth).
Originally posted by Paladin's Wrath
Actually, if I remember correctly, there was supposedly a kender squire to a Knight of Solmnia before the first Cataclysm. I would personally find it amusing to find a kender KoS. Also, there's a lot of potential there for adventure.
If you mean Tarli, he was a half-kender.
Originally posted by Slapstick_80
I do agree that there are differences within humanity, but would you consider half a population of stupid humans bashing mice and rats for food, and unable to carry on a basic conversation with as normal?
would you be offended if i said yes?
hehe, no of course not Within Dragonlance, however, even regular ogres can give birth to ogre magi. This is representative of a certain instability when it comes to ogre degeneration. This sort of thing is -really- well-detailed in the SAGA/2e adventure/sourcebook "Rise of the Titans." It basically contains everything you could ever want to know about ogres in Dragonlance.
Originally posted by Paladin's Wrath
On the Ogre front, I think what you are trying to ask is which of the two ogre types is the exception and which is the rule?
Exactly. By the way, is the ogre a PC in the DLCS? If so, what are it's stats? If not, would the MM provide a decent template? for example I'd love to play an ogre fighter, just not one who can't tie his shoes.
Disregard that question, just found the thread with the DL stats for the ogre.
From elsewhere on the boards:
Oges(fallen): +10 str, -2 dex, +4 con, -4 int(min 3), -4 cha, large size. has racial hit dice, racial skills/feats, also +5 natural armor. also a ECL +2.
Downfall is a good example of what I think DL Ogres are like. (Rise of the Titans is good too). And although I hated the cheery-happy-go-lucky ending to Icewall and found it highly unbelievable...up until that point, I thought that was a pretty good interpretation of the DL Ogre.
Originally posted by tarklith
Did'nt Ogers desnd from the Irda? Irda's were the great beautifil and smart guys, then they were cursed to be the dumb bruts the Ogers are today.
No. Both the Irda and the 'regular' ogres were descendant from the High Ogres. Irda were those of the High Ogre who left before or during the fall of the ogre empire.
Originally posted by Brimstone
I've never really seen Dragonlance Ogres as un-intelligent. Brutish and single minded perhaps...but not unintelligent.
Downfall is a good example of what I think DL Ogres are like. (Rise of the Titans is good too). And although I hated the cheery-happy-go-lucky ending to Icewall and found it highly unbelievable...up until that point, I thought that was a pretty good interpretation of the DL Ogre.
Agreed. I like to think of them as they were portrayed throughout the Dhamon Trilogy and particularly the Icewall trilogy. I also admit that the ending of Icewall seemed a little out of place. But, take for example Night of Blood, the ogres there were much more uncivilized, perhaps not 'unintelligent' per se, but indeed brutish. I like the idea of them being more civilized as in the Dhamon saga and in Icewall. Perhaps I'm just not seeing everything
Also, since the Irda have now come up...what color skin do they have? Gold? or Blue? Did the High Ogre have blue skin? To my knowledge High Ogre were blue and for some reason I was thinking the Irda did too.
Ogres now seem to have anywhere from orange to green and everything inbetween (oh...heh heh...that rhymed) Ahem...anyway...
The Irda...I don't know...it seems like everytime we've seen them (although I can't remember for sure from Dragons of Summer Flame) they have light colored pale skin...like caucasions. I would think over the years...if it did loose it's blue tint...then the next natural progression I would think would be quite pale. Not necessarily translucent...but it might appear so at first glance.
That being said...they'd probably also have perfect skin...no flaws...at least not that we as humans would detect.
Just my thoughts.
)I rather liked the depth Rise of the Titans gave to the ogre race as a whole. It tells of a race who in fact has a life beside crushing good adventurers' skulls ( which doesn't mean that they should stop doing that - it's so fun!!
) and who still has a social life, if an extremely crude one. DL is a rich world where the different races all occupy a place in the world's history. I would very much like to see articles, texts or even books detailing things like the history, ways, territories, social structures and important individuals of every "monster" race of Krynn. While not very last goblin should have a memorable personality and a great destiny, "monsters" -intelligent ones that is- should represent an occasion for characters to learn more about themselves and the world, and killing everything is rarely the best way of achieving that.
Players may snivel and whine at first because they can't just hack at every 'evil' thing they meet anymore (mine did, a lot), but in the long run it can make for a much more profound roleplaying experience.
Irda began to build a small following of other High Ogre's who supported his belief. The High Ogre's were the favored of Takisis. (Think sort of Roman Empire that's how I see the High Ogre's) Irda took up the faith of Paladine and as a reward to Irda and his follows they were not cursed as the others of there kind.
Those High Ogre's who were the most brutal and violent became an outer extention of themselves become more bestial and violent. Others could have been more cold and calculated then those before and took on the features of this hatred but keep there intellect or cunning for diabolical deviation. In fact think of every type of evil that their is and twist the ogre's to these end's.
The Irda as they are now known are the orginal embodiment of the High Ogre's they simple go by a different name as a way of honoring the one who showed them the error of there ways. (Historically religion has tons of these examples, heck read a bible or new testament for some examples).This allows you to alter the Ogres of Krynn, to your own ends.
The Ancient High Ogres had members of every race as slaves. So think of how the various races would see them. Maybe another reason the High Ogres of today are known as the Irda. Whatever you decide on is fine this is just an example of how I would explain it. I prefer my own version of Greyhawk were I changed things to make them more Greyhawk specific. You could make similar changes for your Dragonlance setting. It's all up to you.
Also, I don't think the Irda are exactly like the High Ogres. They are much smaller than the High Ogres were (who were still quite large...larger than humans anyway).
Does anyone know where exactly this ambush took place and how badly the ogres were defeated?
I'm thinking of having my PC's travel through Blode to reach Pashin for the Sylvan Key adventure and don't really want them to meet too many ogres at 1st level:D
I'm sure that DoaVM mentions a fairly conclusive wipeout, but does anyone have any more info? I've looked the DLCS and AoM books but havn't seen anything.
Thanks,
HS
For myself, I think the Ogres are possessed of a cunning, greedy and brutal nature. They can be stupid, tend to be stupid, but not as stupid as everyone would like them to be. Smart enough anyway to survive as plunderers and raiders among humanity, and smart enough to exist as barbaric rulers in a couple of places.
As far as intelligent ogres, I've read of very few with intelligence that are not ogre magi. Off the top of my head I can recall maybe four.
If you are interested in playing one as a PC race I strongly suggest you purchase Savage Species. It is one of the best books WoC has put out in 3rd edition and details how to play many monster races from first level up including Ogres, Ogre Magi, and Half-Ogres. You will be amazed how much effort went into this book as the races and their advancements are balanced well enough that an ogre at first level won't unbalance your 1st level party.
Cannibal barbarian tribes should exist but I also think the "huge" relatively civilized tribes of giants from Narnia's "The Silver Chair" or the whole "Titan" feel for the truly awesome remanents of the High Ogre race
At the very least in my game I give Ogres the feel of Urak-Hai from the Lord of the Rings over the Hobgoblin hordes. In order to seperate Lord Toede from the rest of the races I actually use him as an Ogre in my games.
Thus the "original race" is still a superior one but you can see where it has decayed. Lord Toede is intelligent, crafty, dangerous, and were he an ogre...physically powerful. You can also see him dominated by hungers that he takes for granted as instinctual.
I occasionally insert Ogre magi into the races as well, but keep them "ogre looking". For instance the immediate Rival to Dalamar in my games and the Player character's apprentice (Valance the Dark Wizard of the Silvastani who could take the title from Dalamar)
Is an Ogre.
I'll give you the description I gave the players on meeting his henchman
"You immediately see a large figure about seven feet tall with rippling muscles underneath his heavy silken robes and protruding veins that lead up to a face that is deformed like a snakes at the nose and jowels that hang like a dessicated corpse off his face with cat like eyes. He wears a skull cap and his shark like teeth are a twisted grin. Nevertheless his fingers are nimble and he has a spell prepped on his two extended fingers as from his voice box is a surprisingly articulant sweet soft whisper of ancient power wearing it. His skull cap is dyed in human blood and covered in teeth."
The reference to his blood dyed skull cap is a reference to Redcaps from fairy myth
The Degeneration is actually based on Call of Cthulhu to animal like forms and actually explained that Takhasis drew the best of her race's traits from animals but the final result is degenerating to them over time genetically
I threw in the voice as a sign that all Ogres have at least one trait of their forebearers. His silky seductive voice is his
The trick to getting good Ogre villains is my opinion only explaining how they got their educations. In my game I have quite a thriving trade in more primative tribes kidnapping scholars to educate
and from them come castle building ogres (slaves) and those simply willing to steal into places and adopt the human culture
Originally posted by Charles Phipps
"You immediately see a large figure about seven feet tall with rippling muscles underneath his heavy silken robes and protruding veins that lead up to a face that is deformed like a snakes at the nose and jowels that hang like a dessicated corpse off his face with cat like eyes. He wears a skull cape and his shark like teeth are a twisted grin. Nevertheless his fingers are nimble and he has a spell prepped on his two extended fingers as from his voice box is a surprisingly articulant sweet soft whisper of ancient power wearing it. His skull cap is dyed in human blood and covered in teeth."
Love it, Charles!
I think the Slavic folklore element would make for a good strong characterization of ogres. Because the ogres of Kern seem to have adopted a lifestyle and culture more like the nomads of Khur (and the steppe nomads and warlords of Mongolia), I would probably portray them as taking their lead from the far eastern areas of the Russian regions, while their kindred in Blode are more western and Slavic as you describe.
Cheers,
Cam