Seeing how everyone is trying to find something to work with the preserver/defiler class thing, I'm gonna submit my own opinion, even though I'm pretty sure that it must have been proposed before.
First of all, this is not my own conversion of the wizard, meaning this is not my "d20 athasian wizard", so don't worry. I'm trying to help Athas.org's wizard here, sticking to D&D and simplicity as much as possible, and also trying to reflect the original work of Dark Sun, while maintaining the balance between the 2 wizards and between wizards and other classes.
Ok. This is gonna be long to fully explain... Have a nice reading! :D
Defilers and Preservers are one class: Wizard
First of all, there is a general concensus and a clear intent of the Athas.org team to make both wizards a single class. I think it should be so too.
So, when picking up a wizard level, you choose either preserver or defiler. You cannot multiclass levels of both classes. This works much like the specialist wizard.
However, certain circumstances may have you change this designation from one to the other, such as when a preserver is currupted, or a defiler repents. (The mechanics of which I leave to you.)
Preserver = PHB Wizard + defiling...
Another concensus seems to be centered around the idea that since the preserver was the standard wizard of 2e, it should also be made so in 3e. So be it. 3e preservers have exactly the same Class abilities as the D&D PHB Wizard.
However, preservers can defile if they wish, at the risk of loosing their ability to preserve. (See below)
Defiler = PHB Wizard + "specialist" spell slot
Defilers also have the same class abilities as the PHB Wizard. However, they also benefit from 1 extra spell slot to cast each day for each spell level. This spell must be cast from amongst those which the wizard has or had memorised that day, meaning he can use that spell slot to recall a spell he has already cast that day.
However this spell slot may only be used when the appropriate amount of plantlife is available.
Terrain and extra defiling spell
You can only use your extra defiling spell slots for spells of spell levels appropriate to the terrain you are on.
Barren = 1st level spells only
Infertile = 1st or 2nd level spells only
Fertile = 1st, 2nd or 3rd level spells only
Abundant = up to 6th level spells
Lush = up to 9th level spells
This means a defiler on infertile terrain cannot use his extra 3rd level slot to cast a Fireball, but he could use it to cast an Acid Arrow (2nd level spell).
Preservers and defiling
While preservers do not defile when casting normally, they may also use these extra slots, but only through defiling. Each time they do so, they risk becoming a defiler.
Why do I think the extra spell slot is not "broken to high heavens"...
I really don't think this extra spell slot is unbalancing for the athasian wizard, for many reasons:
1- Wizards have a bunch of flavorwise disadvantages on Dark Sun. I know, I know. You can't take that into account while creating a class. I know. But still, think about that as part of the following package.
2- Specialists have a bonus spell slot at each spell level in standard D&D. Sorcerers have the equivalent of 2 bonus spell slots at each spell level. There aren't any specialists or sorcerers in Athas. So lets make use of some of those mechanics (a spell slot which allows to recall or use memorised spells, micing specialist ability with sorcerer ability) Now wait. I know, of course, that for both specialists and wizards, this is offset by a lesser number of known spells. Which brings me to...
3- Athasian wizards should have far less spells than in standard D&D settings. Unless you are working for a sorcerer king and have acces to his libraries (which is the equivalent of having a FR PC be Elminster's apprentice and let him have acces to his stuff), you will have a hard time getting acces to spells on Athas, as wizards are much more rare, magical schools are nonexistant and magical shops are illegal (elven and black market traders may sell magical wares, but certainly not as much as a FR or Greyhawk magic shop (Hommlet has 2!!!)).
If wizards have less spells than the standard D&D wizard, they are unbalanced when compared to the standard wizard. Moreover, the number of spells a wizard has at is disposal is probably the greatest advantage a wizard has on the sorcerer (which has better weapon proficiencies, much more spells to cast each day and versatility in casting, his single real disadvantage being the slowed progression of spells from 1st to 2nd level).
Taking into account that the sorecer learns by default anywhere from 2 to 5 spells at each level, and the wizard learns only 2 by default, the innability or difficulty to do so easily in game between levels might severely handicap the wizard.
Since he might be brought in more in par with the sorecerer on that front, the extra spell slot, which represents half of the sorecrer's extra spellcasting ability and limited versatility, can be justified.
4- I'd throw in the fact that Athasian wizards should not have as much magic items as standard D&D ones, but it seems they will have no other choice but to have as many, for balance concerns, so never mind that.
5- Terrain limits the maximum spell level you can cast with your bonus spell slot, which limits the usefulness of this ability.
So, considering all that, I don't think this extra spell slot is really unbalancing.
"If it's broken, here's how to fix it" variant
Here, you'd have to twink the wizard class a bit, but in my opinion, it would reflect more accurately the DS setting.
The "automatic spells" for each wizard levels should be dropped to 1 (or dropped entirely) and their starting spells could be lessened somewhat, say 10 cantrips and 1+ int modifier 1st level spells.
This would consecrate the lesser known spells for the wizard, bringing it closer to the sorecerer on that aspect, justifying a slightly higher number of spell slots.
However, wizards who would join the Veiled Alliance and pick up the associated prestige class (there should be one: Veiled One?) would regain their normal free spell progression (or maybe more). And guess who joins the veiled alliance? Preservers. aka those who don't use the extra defiling spell slot.
So it works out, and its an interesting benefit when joining the alliance.
That's it
Any thoughts and why does it not work? :D
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
Defilers and Preservers are one class: Wizard
However, certain circumstances may have you change this designation from one to the other, such as when a preserver is currupted, or a defiler repents. (The mechanics of which I leave to you.)
I agree with this. Defilers simply take more energy than preservers do, from a more concentrated area.
Preserver = PHB Wizard + defiling...
Another concensus seems to be centered around the idea that since the preserver was the standard wizard of 2e, it should also be made so in 3e. So be it. 3e preservers have exactly the same Class abilities as the D&D PHB Wizard.
Defiler = PHB Wizard + "specialist" spell slot
Defilers also have the same class abilities as the PHB Wizard. However, they also benefit from 1 extra spell slot to cast each day for each spell level. This spell must be cast from amongst those which the wizard has or had memorised that day, meaning he can use that spell slot to recall a spell he has already cast that day.
I don't know if this will bring the rate of advancement into the Defiler's favor. Adding another spell, or three doesn't convince me that the Defiler is a more powerful force.
I've begun to tackle this problem for my own game. So I can't yet comment on an alternative
, but I can say what I want to accomplish:1 - Rules for a defiler and preserver should only differ IF the character wants to defile. Otherwise they run by the EXACT same mechanics.
2 - Defilers must be significantly more powerful. Otherwise, why defile in the first place? Most wizards are logical folk, so lets look at it this way: if I were a wizard who could get away with more casting and not cast one additional spell a day, then I would lose the spell. A spell or three a day isn't going to be this intoxicating sense of power that defiling should bring. Defilers defile because it is an easy road to power and damn the objections.
Game balance comes into play because Defilers have nobody to turn to for help. Everyone hates them. If you're a preserver at least you can find a network of allies to help you out in a crunch.
3 - (This is for my vision of Athas, so take it as you will) Magic on the whole should be more powerful than any other supernatural force. A psion or cleric on Athas should not be able to do what a wizard can do. Otherwise, why would SK's care about a po-dunk wizard over free psions and clerics. :D
Those are my two bits. Any arguments either way?
3 - Magic on the whole should be more powerful than any other supernatural force. A psion or cleric on Athas should not be able to do what a wizard can do. Otherwise, why would SK's care about a po-dunk wizard over free psions and clerics.
*cough* Dragons. Avangions. *cough* Ability to read. Forbidden knowledge *cough*
;)
PS: I was almost struck by lightning today. It struck less than 10 meters from where I was standing.
There aren't any specialists or sorcerers in Athas.
Not so. The DS2 ban on specialist wizards is not being carried over into DS3.
(Opinion) And there's really not much reason not to allow sorcerers on athas, so long as they are subject to the same defiling/preserving rules as wizards are. The big, core difference between the two classes is that they simply learn spells differently. .... but, to some, the lack of a spellbook is a really big thing. Not something I'm going to argue to get put into core, but my own games will allow sorcerers ...
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
*cough* Dragons. Avangions. *cough* Ability to read. Forbidden knowledge *cough*
Wizards on Athas do not have any more ability to read than the dung slave. Wizards CAN learn to read as any dung slave could, but they don't automatically know how to read and write.
Wizards on Athas do not have any more access to forbidden knowledge than any other adventurer. They can cast spells to divine, but so can clerics and to some extent psions. By their very nature wizards on Athas have the forbidden knowledge of magic, but knowledge of magic is forbidden due to the power that it wields, not because of the sheer knowledge of magic's existance.
Advanced beings are certainly a force to recon with. Certainly a 40+ level being with psionic and magic powers up the ying-yang is going to be someone that can't be ignored. These beings will also command a lot of respect and influence.
However, the average Athasian wizard is not, nor ever will be a Avangion or Dragon. I suppose that you could argue that is because they are hunted by the monarchs. And that is true, but even then, any character with that level would be noticed. A monarch certainly would be uneasily aware of the destructive power a 30th level fighter could do, or the amount of mental havoc a 35th level psion could produce if they were operating freely in the city.
My point is, that to balance out the characters on paper alone does not convey the special attention that wizards should get. Wizards need to have access to a little more ability to offset their constant fight to even practice their craft.
Of course how to do this without breaking the game is what I haven't been able to figure out yet. :D
Originally posted by Quarion
I don't know if this will bring the rate of advancement into the Defiler's favor. Adding another spell, or three doesn't convince me that the Defiler is a more powerful force.
You're new to 3e mechanic-mixing, darksun converting, idea debating, aren't you? :D Just kidding, no insult intented, its just that what you describe as a problem is the exact opposite of what I am trying to accomplish, and what D&D 3e is all about.
Defilers can't have a preferable rate of advancement over the preserver, because all D&D classes have the same rate of advancement.
Also, defilers can't be a more powerful force (or at least, not by anything considerable) than preservers, since that would mean that the wizard, a class balanced against other classes, would have defiling wizards be more powerful than all other classes, not just preservers. Unless you make preservers weaker than core, which would mean that preservers are weaker than all other classes, not just defilers.
So I'm glad your concerned that this advantage isn't that great.
1 - Rules for a defiler and preserver should only differ IF the character wants to defile. Otherwise they run by the EXACT same mechanics.
This is what this system proposes.
2 - Defilers must be significantly more powerful.
No, or not really. I explained earlier. It depends on what you mean by significantly. There must be a definite advantage to defiling over preserving, but not one unbalances the classes irreparably. It must be tempting enough for preservers to defile, but not so much that they would become far less powerful when not doing so. Remember: Preservers and defilers must not only be balanced against one another, but against all other D&D classes.
Otherwise, why defile in the first place? Most wizards are logical folk, so lets look at it this way: if I were a wizard who could get away with more casting and not cast one additional spell a day, then I would lose the spell. A spell or three a day isn't going to be this intoxicating sense of power that defiling should bring. Defilers defile because it is an easy road to power and damn the objections.
I fail to see why this system would not make defiling more tempting than preserving. You have defilers cast more spell, and get a little versatility. Preservers do not, unless they defile (and they always can).
The question is not so much: "why defile?" but: "why preserve?". Defilers just don't care. Preservers are the ones who make the choice. This system has them sacrifice some bonus spells in exchange for not harming the land. So if you don't care about the soil and about plants, why preserve, since you forfeit those spells?
Game balance comes into play because Defilers have nobody to turn to for help. Everyone hates them. If you're a preserver at least you can find a network of allies to help you out in a crunch.
Preservers aren't really universally liked either. Why I do agree their is a difference, it is a very slight one. Rangers could be said to have no one to turn too, while rogues might have a guild and clerics (in standard D&D settings anyways) have churches.
While I do agree that these roleplaying factors (against wizards in general, and more specifically against defilers) should be taken into account, it should only play a very minimal role in balancing that class.
3 - (This is for my vision of Athas, so take it as you will) Magic on the whole should be more powerful than any other supernatural force. A psion or cleric on Athas should not be able to do what a wizard can do. Otherwise, why would SK's care about a po-dunk wizard over free psions and clerics. :D
That is already so.
Look at attack spells. Divine spellcasters have nowhere near the same firepower as a wizard. Psions don't fare much better on that front either.
Therefore, wizards do have far more sheer power (combatwise) than other spellcasters or manifesters.
Originally posted by flip
Not so. The DS2 ban on specialist wizards is not being carried over into DS3.
(Opinion) And there's really not much reason not to allow sorcerers on athas, so long as they are subject to the same defiling/preserving rules as wizards are. The big, core difference between the two classes is that they simply learn spells differently. .... but, to some, the lack of a spellbook is a really big thing. Not something I'm going to argue to get put into core, but my own games will allow sorcerers ...
I don't really care either way. I don't think they fit, but hey, knock yourself out.
Anyhow, that wasn't the point. I was merely saying that since wizards would (should) (probably won't, but still should) not have have access to as many spells than in a standard D&D setting, they are closer to the specialists and sorcerer's handicaps, which warrants them additionnal spell slots.
As such, I don't think this system would be too unbalance. Nor would it keep a wizard from gaining a specialist spell slot.
Wizards on Athas do not have any more ability to read than the dung slave. Wizards CAN learn to read as any dung slave could, but they don't automatically know how to read and write.
Wizards as opposed to the dung slave who is a Commoner, have Literacy as a class skill. Furthermore they have Knowledge (all skills taken individually) as class skills. Commoners do not. So it takes the wizard half the skill points the commoner would have to spend to learn said skills, and a wizard of level x can have more ranks in said skills than a commoner of the same level. So a wizard does in fact have more more ability to read than a dung slave.
Wizards on Athas do not have any more access to forbidden knowledge than any other adventurer.
Actually, they have Knowledge (Arcana) as a class skill. "*Any* other adventurer" does not necessarily have that. Furthermore, I would characterize the avangion and dragon metamorphosis as forbidden knowledge, and only wizards can utilize that knowledge in a mechanical perspective, even if other classes would gain access to it.
My point is, that to balance out the characters on paper alone does not convey the special attention that wizards should get. Wizards need to have access to a little more ability to offset their constant fight to even practice their craft.
You must realize that roleplaying penalties cannot be balanced with mechanical benefits under the D&D3E system. That is quoting WotC. And a wizard out in the desert with no witnesses is not at any roleplaying disadvantage.
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
You're new to 3e mechanic-mixing, darksun converting, idea debating, aren't you? :D Just kidding, no insult intented, its just that what you describe as a problem is the exact opposite of what I am trying to accomplish, and what D&D 3e is all about.
Well I have been "away" from the boards for a while....
Don't worry too much about offending me. Unless you're calling me names then I usually don't take things personally. Debating with the "experts" will bring the best solution for all of us.D&D 3e definately is trying to bring consistency to each class, and that is why I much prefer 3e over the other D&D incarnations. My concern, and probably the concern of most on this board, is Dark Sun is and always has been different. I am just trying to get the d20 system to match my own vision of Dark Sun.
Defilers can't have a preferable rate of advancement over the preserver, because all D&D classes have the same rate of advancement.
Agreed
Also, defilers can't be a more powerful force (or at least, not by anything considerable) than preservers, since that would mean that the wizard, a class balanced against other classes, would have defiling wizards be more powerful than all other classes, not just preservers. Unless you make preservers weaker than core, which would mean that preservers are weaker than all other classes, not just defilers.
I don't want to seem as though I want to create a min-maxer's fantasy class. It is just that in my vision of Athas, wizards have many distinct advantages than non-enlightened folk.
If I were to go strictly by the 3e interpretation of the rules, a 10th level Psion would be just as much of a threat as a 10th level wizard. Why then, would SK's be more upset about a 10th level wizard than a 10th level Psion? Most of the SK's are very pragmatic people, and to spend time and resources to squash a small group of people who are no more of a threat to their power base than any other group of people doesn't make sense to me.
For me, I would like to make wizards enough of a threat that their very existance can upset the balance. Yet at the same time, making sure that a 1st level wizard won't be able to destroy an army.
No, or not really. I explained earlier. It depends on what you mean by significantly. There must be a definite advantage to defiling over preserving, but not one unbalances the classes irreparably. It must be tempting enough for preservers to defile, but not so much that they would become far less powerful when not doing so. Remember: Preservers and defilers must not only be balanced against one another, but against all other D&D classes.
When I say significant advantage, I once again don't mean that a 1st level defiler should be able to annihiliate a 10th level warrior. I mean that there should be a pragmatic and logical reason why someone without morals would forsake a dedicated community of allies to pursue their craft alone. IMHO a spell or three a day isn't enough of a reason to defile. If a defiler got a spell or three a day in addition to having the ability to make each spell cast more potent then I would say that is a good reason.
I fail to see why this system would not make defiling more tempting than preserving. You have defilers cast more spell, and get a little versatility. Preservers do not, unless they defile (and they always can).
I apologize if my debate here is seen as throwing water on your idea. I do agree that your system does allow for 3e balance yet giving some benefit to the defilers. My debate is not with your solution to the stated problem, but rather what the stated problem should be.
Preservers aren't really universally liked either. Why I do agree their is a difference, it is a very slight one. Rangers could be said to have no one to turn too, while rogues might have a guild and clerics (in standard D&D settings anyways) have churches.
While I do agree that these roleplaying factors (against wizards in general, and more specifically against defilers) should be taken into account, it should only play a very minimal role in balancing that class.
Agreed that wizards in general are all lumped together by 90% of the population. The way I run my game, and I believe most people here run their game is to have wizardly information and materials very hard to come by. Trying to get spell components, spell "books", research material, a quiet and safe study environment is extreamly difficult when the agents of the monarch are always poking their head around.
Without component materials, most spells don't work. Without access to spell "book" materials wizards can't memorize spells to cast. Those are roleplaying factors that take quite a lot of firepower away from wizards. Couple that with having angry mobs running after characters who cast simple detect magic spells (bringing attention to themselves and to their allies), I don't see how these roleplaying factors can be ignored in balancing out the classes.
Look at attack spells. Divine spellcasters have nowhere near the same firepower as a wizard. Psions don't fare much better on that front either.
Therefore, wizards do have far more sheer power (combatwise) than other spellcasters or manifesters.
I do agree that cleric can heal, psions can fortify themselves, and wizards can destroy. I apologize if I sound as if wizards aren't powerful. Far from that. Wizards just aren't any more of a threat by the 3e rules than a psion or cleric. That's what I hope to fix.
A quick question about the preserver/defiler balance issue: if roleplaying disadvantages do not count for balance, why not transform them in mechanical disadvantages, as Dragonhelm had suggested?
The 2ed kit, the Arcanamach, is an example of this "roleplaying-mechanical disadvantage" (50% chance of a difficult mission assigned by the SK, at each level advancement, if i remember correctly), introduced for balancing the great advantages of the kit.
Why not to adapt a similar mechanic to Defiler characters? Like a percentage of attracting Druids, rangers, halfling, SKs, Templars, lynch mobs, ecc... (depending from the place where the wizard defiles), modified by various factors (spell level, place, ecc...).
It may be a cumbersome mechanic, but with a little work...
M2C
If the wizard is always fighting to keep their abilities under wraps, then the consequences of being out in the open are always fair game. Only a stubborn character (player) will keep casting fireballs in the middle of the city if they will be swarmed by successively more powerful enemies.
You are correct, however, in that explicit rules removes any ambiguity on the part of the DM. However, I am concerned that the wording of such a rule will disrupt the flow of the game and seem a little obtuse to the players.
1) Dark Sun was never an easy world to play. It is simply not for the unexperienced players. It assumes, that the players and the DM is on a maturity level, where they can handle correctly such things as 'balancing roleplaying hindraces with game mechanics' and similar things. Of course anybody can play Dark Sun, but the risk of loosing the flavour and creating overly powerful PCs is very high if the players and the DM don't have enough routine.
2) The taste of Dark Sun comes from its unique setting, which involves a lot from these potentially unblancing factors. The most important thing is that for the sake of the unique world, feeling and spirit we let game balance drop a bit. If somebody is interested in the mood, play DS. But if in balance, play Greyhawk, FR, or other common world.
That's why I see the balancing DS a very futile attempt. It would'n be the same any more. From that point of view I would say that the old 2e with its mistakes was a better suited system for DS. I like 3e very much, and will use it with DS, but with that in mind.
Regarding the wizard question: to solve the balance issues, and keeping the feeling as much as possible, wizard should be a prestige class. Then balance is not a much problem any more. You can give the wizards really fantastic powers, and a good reason why SKs would hunt them down. And I think in the case of prestige classes the 'balancing the roleplaying hindraces with game mechanic benefits' is acceptable.
I'm just curious about the opinion of the official staff of athas.org. I saw flip comment on explanations I gave, but none on the system itself.
Nagypapi: If your view is that mood and balance are incompatible, then you should probably play under a different game system than D&D 3E, f.ex. the CODA system. Please stop beating the dead kank.
Guyser: Dragonhelm withdrew that statement and corrected himself.
Quarion: Good comment on the proposed chance of someone coming to bash you when you defile. The idea has been shot down before. I would like to add that in essence, unless the GM intends to kill the PC, any such encounters are purely bonus experience points. Hmm, in that regard, the defiler would advance quicker than a preserver. Maybe something you should look into, Nagypapi? ;)
I do notice however that almost no one here is entirely satisfied by the current system (In fact I don't remember anyone saying he was).
But don't answer if you don't want too. Nytcrwlr perhaps?
do notice however that almost no one here is entirely satisfied by the current system (In fact I don't remember anyone saying he was).
"Oh, you broke my heart, Jelly. You broke my heart." Reverse psychology does not work well on me. ;) By all means, if you think you have a system that makes *everyone* happy, do post it. So far I have yet to see it. I'm satisified as long as only a few people have an issue with certain single aspects of a system.
But don't answer if you don't want too. Nytcrwlr perhaps?
Nyte can answer all he wants, but that does not mean he speaks for the rest of us.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Nyte can answer all he wants, but that does not mean he speaks for the rest of us.
Amen.
Frankly I'm a bit appalled and tired of this.
Just because any one of us says they like an idea you guys presents, does not mean that we all do, one voice = one voice.
LOL!
:D
All hail Gab!
(did I say that out loud?) :D
LOL
Look guys, I know you're probably tired of having people second guessing your wizard, but you can't come here and tell me it's ok when everybody here goes on to say something around the lines of: I support the system, but I'll use my own instead. If the system was good enough, people would not say that. They would simply use it, or at least, a large number of people would.
You don't see many people go and say they'll use house rules instead of your cleric or your dwarf or your equipment list. That probably means they are satisfied with the system.
Obviously, this is not true about the wizard. The very fact that you can't even stand people second guessing it so much anymore is a pretty good way of showing that people aren't satisfied with it.
And if people complaining here are *a few*, I'd like to here from *the many* who support this system entirely, and please, without saying that even though they do so, they won't use it.
Sprry if I'm being harsh, but man, your condescendance really didn't ring well with me. If you don't care about answering on topics on Magic, Jon, then don't, period. You say Nytcrwlr doesn't speak for all of athas.org, and I'm pretty sure the same goes for you.
But then, Nytcrwlr does make the effort of commenting or criticising proposed ideas, without simply discrading them, even on magic, as other threads showed (see Simple Variant). Which is why I named him, not because I thought of him as the official voice of Dark Sun or Athas.org, but because I would have liked to have his comments, and that's it.
As for me, I never meant for my proposed system to solve everything, or claimed everyone agreed with it. I proposed it to see what people thought, and I thank those who commented and criticised. Now, I would have liked the same thing from the official team too, since Nytcrwlr had me thinking you guys weren't entirely satisfied with the current wizard/defiling advantage/temptation thing (see Simple Variant thread)
Now if I was wrong, and you all think your wizard is just right as it is, and don't wan't any comments or suggestions on it, just say so. You'll save time for those *few* here who are proposing ideas for it.
And by the way, what I proposed isn't even what I'm using anyways. I'm using a completely different wizard d20 variant, and a completely different Dark Sun d20 variant anyways, so this suggestion was entirely for those who would rather stick closer to D&D, like most of the people here.
Man...
I'll be nicer on other posts.
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
I would have liked the same thing from the official team too, since Nytcrwlr had me thinking you guys weren't entirely satisfied with the current wizard/defiling advantage/temptation thing (see Simple Variant thread)
Ok, not sure how I did that, and that was not my intention, so I'm sorry if you took it that way.
I just can't wait to see more advanced being mechanics too after the core comes out ;)
I know, that was ebil. I take it back.
Anyhow, what I'd like to see this. Everyone with a version of the wizard/arcane spellcasting refine and clarify your idea. Polish it up as is in a presentable fashion. Sumbit it to the core team who then can collect them all in one single resource that can then be readily available to those who are not pleased with the current system. Kind of a 1,000 And One Ways to Defile Athas net project. I'm actually serious though about a compiled net resource for alternate wizards, alternative spellcasting, or just wizards with alternative lifestyles. If the Athas.org team doesn't want to, I'll be more than happy to do it. In fact, polish your ideas up and send them [email=darkstarfalling@sbcglobal.net]here[/email]. I'll have a home for them
Originally posted by Mach2.5
I'm house ruling the tari over the semi-official one, if that helps . . . errr, nevermind, I'll just go nibble some space halflings, they're made of 100% cheese ;)
LOL!
I know, that was ebil. I take it back.
Don't you dare.
Anyhow, what I'd like to see this. Everyone with a version of the wizard/arcane spellcasting refine and clarify your idea. Polish it up as is in a presentable fashion. Sumbit it to the core team who then can collect them all in one single resource that can then be readily available to those who are not pleased with the current system. Kind of a 1,000 And One Ways to Defile Athas net project. I'm actually serious though about a compiled net resource for alternate wizards, alternative spellcasting, or just wizards with alternative lifestyles. If the Athas.org team doesn't want to, I'll be more than happy to do it. In fact, polish your ideas up and send them [email=darkstarfalling@sbcglobal.net]here[/email]. I'll have a home for them
All I gotta say is that if I see one more variant being posted on these freaking boards I'm going to scream, scratch my face up, dig out my eyes, eat them while wearing a veil, go completely insane running around the city stark naked and mumbling about space hamsters and cheese. Yes I've been reading too much Wheel of Time.
I'm a NytCrawlr on the edge! :D
Seriously though, Mach, damn good idea. I'm sure it will be chalk full of variants and it could be something we add to the unofficial section later once we get an unofficial section again, I know flip wants one.
Hopefully this will satisfy most if not everyone.
PS: I was almost struck by lightning today. It struck less than 10 meters from where I was standing.
Karma. No other word for it, oh Flinger of Frequent Bolts. Karma. :D
(Btw, not that it matters, but I am one of the "silent many" that thinks that the current magic system is fine, thanks...)
D&D 3e definately is trying to bring consistency to each class, and that is why I much prefer 3e over the other D&D incarnations. My concern, and probably the concern of most on this board, is Dark Sun is and always has been different. I am just trying to get the d20 system to match my own vision of Dark Sun.
There is a fundamental difference between converting Dark Sun to D&D 3E, which is a specific system using the d20 mechanics with its own subsets of rules, and coming up with a new system using the d20 mechanics with other subsets of rules for Dark Sun. I.e. compare D&D 3rd edition with Spycraft, and you'll see some significant differences. At athas.org we are doing a conversion to D&D 3E, not a Dark Sun d20 system of its own (seeing that is our mandate from Wizards of the Coast).
In theory (at least in my opinion) you could create a fully workable Dark Sun d20 system that is less meticulously balance preoccupied than D&D 3E is, assuming you eliminate the factor that makes D&D 3E dependent upon meticulous game balance - the CR/XP system. If you construct a different experience point mechanic and nix CRs as anything else than very rough guidelines, you can have unbalanced elements that are more in line with the "feel" some of you miss from AD&D 2E Dark Sun. As an example, give experience awards based on length of the adventure and difficulty. The first Star Wars d20 book had such XP rules. Then you can give whatever other awards you want, such as for good roleplaying, ideas etc. In essence, it is much up to the GM, and allows for an easier control of pace. Under such circumstances, wizardly magic can be more powerful than other magic, defilers more powerful than preservers etc.
Oh, and a side remark to Shei-Nad: It's not that I don't care about answering, it's that I don't have time to respond to all the different write-ups - and it's more fair to answer none than just a couple. Generally I don't respond to old ideas, and it's not my duty to teach people to be game designers [after countless requests akin to "what's bad with *my* write-up - if you don't say it's bad, it must be good" (hyperbole of course, and certainly not applicable to everyone who has posted a magic system)]. But if I see something I consider a stroke of genius, I'll be sure to let the person who came up with it know.
Gab who?
...
I focused in the idea of the original boxed set. Defilers and preservers belonged to two diferent schools, being the first the quick and easier path, while the second slow and laborious. No terrain modifiers too, the defiling radius off-sets any terrain penalties since it used to increase proportionally according to the barreness of the terrain.
What do we have in the players hand book? The sorcerer class wich is essentially a wizard with a different mechanic, and as result lacks of flavor.
The idea of defilement vs preservation can provide the flavor needed for the opposition of these classes that are very similar in nature but different in mechanic. Preservers would be the standart phb wizards, while defilers would be the sorcerer with some tweaks:
-Make Int the Key ability for spells.
-Give then same bonus feats as wizards.
Defilers like power, gathering energy on the fly without care provide more spells, that can also be metamagiced on the fly to suit their needs.
Preservers have patience to spend more time in memorizing their spells from their spellbooks and gathering minimum needed energy for their spells.
The easy path to power has its drawbacks, since defilers just can´t learn as much as the preservers who care to study magic, instead of wild casting.
And how to rule that preservers if desparate can defile?
There weren´t such mechanic in the original boxed set. Some ideas work wonderfully in the novels but in the real game world of mechanics are total desaster... I won´t burn my brain on it.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
There is a fundamental difference between converting Dark Sun to D&D 3E, which is a specific system using the d20 mechanics with its own subsets of rules, and coming up with a new system using the d20 mechanics with other subsets of rules for Dark Sun. I.e. compare D&D 3rd edition with Spycraft, and you'll see some significant differences. At athas.org we are doing a conversion to D&D 3E, not a Dark Sun d20 system of its own (seeing that is our mandate from Wizards of the Coast).
Ahh okay, now I see what the big push-back is from. I guess I didn't clearly understand that the Athas.org team wasn't trying to remake Dark Sun, but rather convert Dark Sun to D&D 3E. It now makes sense why the wizards on Athas really aren't that much different than they are any place else. And if that is the mandate, then so be it.
However....
Originally posted by Shei-Nad
I support the system, but I'll use my own instead. If the system was good enough, people would not say that. They would simply use it, or at least, a large number of people would.
As was pointed out there is discussion about the magic system because it doesn't fit. I definately understand that 2nd edition was broken, and I understand that 2nd edition gave the game a different feel. But the vision that was created not in any game mechanics, but in the books and descriptions of the world say how the world works. The rules that have been created in DS 3E do not match this.
Are they serviciable? Yes. Are they balanced? Yes. Do they match the feel? IMO, no. You have a system, but others feel that there is a better alternative out there. Why should having a logical, and friendly debate on the mater be such a source of agonizing concern?
I am a big fan of making sure that everything is self consistent. I believe, that when everything is consistent and "adds-up" then the players can more easily suspend their disbelief and become more involved in the campaign. The rules as stated do not "add-up" to myself and obviously several others, when placed next to what actually occurs in the game.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Wizards as opposed to the dung slave who is a Commoner, have Literacy as a class skill. Furthermore they have Knowledge (all skills taken individually) as class skills. Commoners do not. So it takes the wizard half the skill points the commoner would have to spend to learn said skills, and a wizard of level x can have more ranks in said skills than a commoner of the same level. So a wizard does in fact have more more ability to read than a dung slave.
First of all I don't appriciate the condesending and snippy tone you have presented in your argument.
Second of all, yes, wizards have the ability to learn faster than a commoner. But that doesn't change the fact that they do not have any more inherent ability to learn to read than anybody else. It costs less skill points to gain a rank, fine. But if the wizard in question isn't taught about reading, or about any specific skill then it doesn't make a difference.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Actually, they have Knowledge (Arcana) as a class skill. "*Any* other adventurer" does not necessarily have that. Furthermore, I would characterize the avangion and dragon metamorphosis as forbidden knowledge, and only wizards can utilize that knowledge in a mechanical perspective, even if other classes would gain access to it.
Yes, any other adventurer does not necessarily have that as a class skill. However, that also does not mean that any wizard has any skill in arcane knowledge, either.
Wizards have to jump through many hoops, both fiery and mundane
to be able to change into advanced beings. Once again, the point is not that an avangion isn't powerful: it is, the point is that most wizards are not, nor ever will be advanced beings. If a 15th level psion is just as dangerous as a 15th level wizard, why be concerned ONLY about the 15th level wizard? Heck, make it a 2nd level wizard. It is down in the "mundane" levels that I am concerned about.Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
You must realize that roleplaying penalties cannot be balanced with mechanical benefits under the D&D3E system. That is quoting WotC. And a wizard out in the desert with no witnesses is not at any roleplaying disadvantage.
I suppose this goes back to the point at the top of this post. If you want D&D3E with a DS flair, then yes. If you want DS with d20 / D&D3E rules, then IMO something needs to be different. :D
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Nagypapi: If your view is that mood and balance are incompatible, then you should probably play under a different game system than D&D 3E, f.ex. the CODA system. Please stop beating the dead kank.
I'm not beating it, I try to animate it... ;)
Sorry if I was not understandable, I don't think that balance and mood incompatible. (I have my own share of 15 years of RPG experience, both as player and DM.) You have to have both to get an enjoyable game. I think that in the case of DS the main thing was that the emphasis was more on mood, and less on balance. There are other systems, where the weight is more on the balance and less on the mood, and they are mostly war simulator systems, games like Battletech.
If you ask _anybody_ who played DS I'm sure that almost all of them would say they played it for the world, for the mood. And nobody would say that they played it becaused it was balanced, or had good game mechanics.
Don't get me wrong: I like 3e. It has its own (and many-many) benefits over 2e. Like consistency, transparency, simplicity. And I also know, that you have to follow the guidelines WoC gave to you, or else it can't be official. But I have the feel that we are in the place of the doctor in the joke: the operation was successful, but the patient is dead. Game mechanics: superb and balanced, mood: weak. This can be a good result for a standard world, like Greyhawk. But it kills DS.
As Shei wrote, everybody (myself included) is satisfied with all the other work (races, classes, equipment, etc.) you did. Is it not possible to be a bit more loose on this last point? I mean handle it with an eye more on flavour than balance. I think the overall game balance and WoC could bear it...
Quarion: Good comment on the proposed chance of someone coming to bash you when you defile. The idea has been shot down before. I would like to add that in essence, unless the GM intends to kill the PC, any such encounters are purely bonus experience points. Hmm, in that regard, the defiler would advance quicker than a preserver. Maybe something you should look into, Nagypapi? ;)
Haha, very funny...
I like the unified XP system. And hey, if the defiler won, than she worked for her XP... And anyway it is balanced! If a preserver starts shooting Fireballs in a city, she also will get the opportunity to get extra XP from the encounter. So I ask you this way to somehow include this in the official material. Originally posted by NytCrawlr
All I gotta say is that if I see one more variant being posted on these freaking boards I'm going to scream, scratch my face up, dig out my eyes, eat them while wearing a veil, go completely insane running around the city stark naked and mumbling about space hamsters and cheese. Yes I've been reading too much Wheel of Time.
Don't tempt me Nyt... I still have 3 more variants up in my sleeve... ;)
Anyway I know that it is the board for the official conversion, but hey, Shei asked for opinions and variants, I gave my. I'm sorry that you can't handle this, but it was not addressed to you, and it is not about you. You shouldn't put all the burden of the world on your shoulders. C'mon boy, next time somebody yells something on your neighbour you would get the insult?
Mach, we could host such a project in the unofficial section on athas.org. You've been away for a while, so you wouldn't know, but I've said twice that we could do that, but we give no assurances of content quality
Sorry, still trying to get up to speed here so I'm missing out on a bit. If you do host it, keep the versions seperate and allow the individual originators to send updated docs as they tweak them for balance and flavor or whatnot. I know the DS team is busy, so I wasn't sure if, should you host it at Athas.org, it would end up a post once and leave it scenario, which would really bite if one system only required a bit of touch up tweaking to make it work, but never got the chance to get updated (as would likely happen in a full doc of all systems).
Sorry for the run on ramble , its moooorrrnnniiinnngggg . . . bright, nasty, early . . . . java . . . must get java . . .
Originally posted by Nagypapi
Anyway I know that it is the board for the official conversion, but hey, Shei asked for opinions and variants, I gave my. I'm sorry that you can't handle this, but it was not addressed to you, and it is not about you. You shouldn't put all the burden of the world on your shoulders. C'mon boy, next time somebody yells something on your neighbour you would get the insult?
These aren't the boards "for the official conversion". It's everyone's board, to discuss Dark Sun.
We've been discussing a magic system for two years now, both internally at athas.org and on the DSML and these boards. I don't participate in the magic system discussions because I didn't participate a lot in the internal discussions. I'm happy with what we have, but for me, it was too much after the n^th revision of the system. Flip has been working on this steadily for more than 2 years, has thrown away many systems, starting from scratch many times.
Feel free to discuss your magic systems; these boards are here for you.
Edit: fixed typo
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Oh, and a side remark to Shei-Nad: It's not that I don't care about answering, it's that I don't have time to respond to all the different write-ups - and it's more fair to answer none than just a couple. Generally I don't respond to old ideas, and it's not my duty to teach people to be game designers [after countless requests akin to "what's bad with *my* write-up - if you don't say it's bad, it must be good" (hyperbole of course, and certainly not applicable to everyone who has posted a magic system)]. But if I see something I consider a stroke of genius, I'll be sure to let the person who came up with it know.
Good, I understand, of course, and it's all I ask from you. If anyone else would like to comment on the system itself, I'd still like it. If anyone else from the athas.org team would like to comment, I'd like that too. You don't have too if you don't want, or don't have the time, or whatever.
Also note that I was merely suggesting something, and if I wanted to hear from you guys, it was to make sure you saw it, if you were interested (its ok if you're not), and to see what you thought of it as a workable system, because you guys are experienced in game balancing and designing (which many here aren't, which isn't an insult, it's just a fact)
So, I still think what I said earlier, but I'm sorry if I was so bitter in saying it. Sorry Jon.
There is a fundamental difference between converting Dark Sun to D&D 3E, which is a specific system using the d20 mechanics with its own subsets of rules, and coming up with a new system using the d20 mechanics with other subsets of rules for Dark Sun. I.e. compare D&D 3rd edition with Spycraft, and you'll see some significant differences. At athas.org we are doing a conversion to D&D 3E, not a Dark Sun d20 system of its own (seeing that is our mandate from Wizards of the Coast).
Indeed. Which is the very reason which brought me to abandon the idea of D&D Dark Sun for D20 Dark Sun.
So, I still think what I said earlier, but I'm sorry if I was so bitter in saying it. Sorry Jon.
No prob. I've worked with IT tech support. I'm immune.
Even the elements attack me these days!
Nyte proposed the Indian name Dances With Lightning, but I want an elven name. Any suggestions?
Originally posted by Nagypapi
Don't tempt me Nyt... I still have 3 more variants up in my sleeve... ;)
Don't expect me to read it then. ;)
/me mumbles something about space hamsters and cheese
Anyway I know that it is the board for the official conversion,
Actually, no, it's not. Like Gab said it's for ideas to be expressed about DS.
I'm sorry that you can't handle this, but it was not addressed to you,
I can handle this, what I can't handle is coming to this board for ideas and seeing nothing but millions of different ways of doing magic.
Sorry but I'm going to go into blunt/truthful mode here, not only is that boring as hell, but it's annoying as well. So I guess I just won't bother participating in the magic threads if more spring up from now on, but I can understand the frustration people get when no one takes a look at their work and gives criticism and comments back, hence why I do what I do.
Athas is more about magic IMO, and I know we, as a community, can do alot better than this then argue about magic systems everyday
If what I've said bothers some people then I guess I'm just being a typical rude American, but I'm sick and tired of seeing it, expect more, and deserve my frustration I think. Just like Gab has said, we have talked about a magic system for years, YEARS, it's time to bury the topic and move on I think.
and it is not about you.
It is when I'm looking to read about discussion of Athas and this is pretty much all I see.
You shouldn't put all the burden of the world on your shoulders.
I'm not, just trying to help people out, it won't happen again with this particular topic.
C'mon boy, next time somebody yells something on your neighbour you would get the insult?
Depends on the neighbor.
Note, I'm not angry, just very frustrated, huge difference.
That is all, thanks for readig my rant.
Originally posted by Quarion
First of all I don't appriciate the condesending and snippy tone you have presented in your argument.
First of all Jon wasn't being snippy nor condescending, he was being informative, big difference there. ;)
Second of all, yes, wizards have the ability to learn faster than a commoner. But that doesn't change the fact that they do not have any more inherent ability to learn to read than anybody else.
Just to clear something up, and I was incorrect as well, it wasn't just Jon, Templars are the only class that get literacy as a class skill, they are however still not automatically proficient in it like the PHB does with every class but Barbarian.
So in essence you are right.
Just to clarify.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
First of all Jon wasn't being snippy nor condescending, he was being informative, big difference there.
Well perhaps my comment was placed with the wrong quote, but some of the other comments made, still gave me a tone that I did not appriciate. I understand that sometimes words can come off incorrectly, over the message boards, but I got a feel that there was more than that.
I do not want to seem as though I am trying to (a) pick fights, or (b) be a pain. I do apologize if I come across as such. I do not want to insult you, Jon, or anybody on this board.
[QUOTEJust to clear something up, and I was incorrect as well, it wasn't just Jon, Templars are the only class that get literacy as a class skill, they are however still not automatically proficient in it like the PHB does with every class but Barbarian.
So in essence you are right.
Just to clarify.
Well I'm not too concerned about WHO is right and who is wrong, just such that the reasons that decisions are made are based upon agreed upon standards.
BTW: On a compleatly different note, did you go to Purdue?
Originally posted by Quarion
BTW: On a compleatly different note, did you go to Purdue?
For 2 years yes, as well as Ivy Tech for math since all the math professors at Purdue were insane.
EDIT: [Just being precognitive. Comes with the Oracle job description.]
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
For 2 years yes, as well as Ivy Tech for math since all the math professors at Purdue were insane.
I ask because I think that we met one summer. I thought it was you, but I just wanted to be sure.
I'm a typical pain-in-the-*** eurpoean. Originally posted by NytCrawlr
I can handle this, what I can't handle is coming to this board for ideas and seeing nothing but millions of different ways of doing magic.
Hmm, what do you expect from a topic with a title: "Defilers/Preservers: My take!"?
I understand that you are full with this stuff, I can say rightly. But don't read this thread than. There are others here, who would like to discuss such things, and _not_ making it a criticism to you or the work you did. Don't take it as an offense. It is not. We leave you in peace. That's why I said 'don't take the burden of the world on your shoulders'. Relax, go swim, run or biking, or into a cinema. Take it easy boy! Netiquette says that if somebody starts a thread than every member on that thread should contribute to that (shortly: no offtopic). Open a thread with the definitive purpose to get ideas about the magic system you did as official. I promise I will creatively contribute to it. ;)
Athas is more about magic IMO, and I know we, as a community, can do alot better than this then argue about magic systems everyday
There are threads for that, and you can open new ones as well. I gladly discuss other things, but I'm very satisfied the version you presented as official.
If what I've said bothers some people then I guess I'm just being a typical rude American, but I'm sick and tired of seeing it, expect more, and deserve my frustration I think. Just like Gab has said, we have talked about a magic system for years, YEARS, it's time to bury the topic and move on I think.
Noooo, mammmyyyyy, I want to staaaaaaayyyyy...
After I discuss magic systems for years it's quite possible I will feel the same way. But you are at least 2-3 years ahead of me on that. Leave me in the kindergarden please... ;)Originally posted by Quarion
I ask because I think that we met one summer. I thought it was you, but I just wanted to be sure.
Shoot me an email.
nytcrawlr[at]crimsonsun[dot]org
Originally posted by Nagypapi
Nyt, first of all I didn't want to offend you, even if you are a typical rude american.
Heh, no offense taken.
You're not a pain-in-the-*** European, I happen to like most Europeans. It's my fellow country men I can't stand half the time, hehe.
Hmm, what do you expect from a topic with a title: "Defilers/Preservers: My take!"?
Well the problem is, most of the non-magic threads were dead, and no new fluff threads or other new non-magic threads were being created all that much. That's all I was getting at.
I don't neccessarily mind the magic threads as long as there are soe non-magic threads I can interest myself in.
Don't take it as an offense. It is not. We leave you in peace. That's why I said 'don't take the burden of the world on your shoulders'. Relax, go swim, run or biking, or into a cinema. Take it easy boy!
I blame it on the caffeine, been way too hyper lately.
Netiquette says that if somebody starts a thread than every member on that thread should contribute to that (shortly: no offtopic). Open a thread with the definitive purpose to get ideas about the magic system you did as official. I promise I will creatively contribute to it. ;)
Agreed, and I try to do that with most of the threads out there, magic or not.
but I'm very satisfied the version you presented as official.
Well good then, Flip, Brax, Eric, Jon and whoever else put alot of effort into magic over the years really busted their ***es on this particular part of the conversion. So that's good to hear.
Noooo, mammmyyyyy, I want to staaaaaaayyyyy...
Again no offense taken, was just frustrated.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Well good then, Flip, Brax, Eric, Jon and whoever else put alot of effort into magic over the years really busted their ***es on this particular part of the conversion. So that's good to hear.
Ummm, hate to ruin your happiness, I meant I'm very satisfied with the official DS 3e you made in all, _except_ the wizardly magic chapter. Sorry... All of the team are my guest for a beer or two (or eggroll, whatever), as I intend to use the version you did, but get my house rules for wizard.
Which means the magic system isn't as bad as you wish it to be. ;)
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Oh well, I'll get over it, there's very few of you that I see saying this anyways.
Which means the magic system isn't as bad as you wish it to be. ;)
Yeah, people here are very polite...
I don't wish it to be bad, I'm very sorry actually that it is not fine by me.
I had to make my own system! The effort, man! The work I had to do! ;)
Hell I redid the whole 2.5 system once with help from a friend, talk about work, that was hell I don't want to repeat.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Been there...
Hell I redid the whole 2.5 system once with help from a friend, talk about work, that was hell I don't want to repeat.
I can understand...