1) Wizards are one class on Athas
2) Wizards are seperate classes on Athas (defiler / preserver)
3) The difference between defiling and preservering can be summed up by
3a) Extra Spells
3b) Higher Caster levels
3c) Higher Save DC's
3d) Differences in casting times
4) Defiling should penalise the caster beyond expected social stigma (e.g. taking subdual damage)
5) Preservers should face a risk of turning into a defiler
6) Preservers should run the risk of being "corrupted" by defiling magic leading to some form of taint (e.g. penalty to social skills)
7) Defilers should have a mechanics based hinderance to counter-act their bonuses (e.g. less bonus feats ?spend feat to be defiler?, penalty to social skills)
;)
What we have works, period.
It doesn't offer temptation to defile because there was never a temptation to begin with before other than a variant rule.
If you really feel the need for that tempation then do the initiative penalty thing I expanded on that someone else came up with, or create something that can be used with the current system, no need to reinvent the wheel for just one little problem.
Nuff ranting, let's move on shall we.
At this point I'm real tired of seeing magic threads. Can we move on to something else, or even talking about expanding the world?
Sheesh.
do the initiative penalty thing I expanded on that someone else came up with
Guilty as charged... ;)
Or, if that's too fiddly, go with the idea that was suggested (by Halabas I think - EDIT - nope, now I'm pretty sure it was Nagypapi - sorry!)) to allow the Efficient Raze feat to be used by all wizards, but that it can only be used when defiling. Both give small tweaks for flavour.
(crawls back underneath mekillot to avoid further discussion of topic)
So yeah, you get the idea.
The problem is that the defiling and preserving distinction of magic is such a huge part of the DS setting. An awful lot of the setting background is based on it. Personally I don't use the official history or all of the background and setting but I do use the feel and flavour to run a Dark Sun campaign and so getting a mgic system thta captures that flavour was a priority for me. The arguments on this board have convinced me that you can get such a system but only if you're essentially running d20 Dark Sun rather than D&D 3e Dark Sun.
But for those who want to run 3e DS they face the impossibility of having a D&D balanced system to run an unbalanced, unfair and injust campaign setting where one of the major imbalances, the magic system, has shaped the history and current culture to a huge degree. The limited resources and infertile land are blamed on the Defilers; the wars are often seen as being between preservers and defilers who destroyed the land to fuel their ambitions and their fights; the current ruling system of Sorceror Kings (and the existence of the Dragon) are all based on arcane power. In the end, it all comes down to the magic and that's why there is such a huge amount of discussion about this issue on these boards. (Notice that psionics and clerical magic have had far less discussion on them.)
So my advice is to just find/create a magic system that you're happy with and that does what you want it to do and don't worry about whether or not it is the official conversion. As long as it works for your game nobody's going to complain.
But these boards should still be open as a forum for others to present their ideas for comment and (constructive) criticism. Just make it clear that such is the case and you're not expecting everybody to instantly adopt your system. There now exists an official system that isn't going to be changed much and the conversion team feel it meets the conditions placed upon them
Now if there's also room for discussion about the nature of athasian magic that doesn't need rules discussion then perhaps that would be more useful than comparing proposed systems or listing the features you would like to see in the official system.
(Okay long post over. Shall we get back to arguing?)
Originally posted by Wintergreen
Now if there's also room for discussion about the nature of athasian magic that doesn't need rules discussion then perhaps that would be more useful than comparing proposed systems or listing the features you would like to see in the official system.
I would say that's good, except if the nature of magic would, by some miricale be agreed upon. There would be a push to match the mechanics of the game to the agreed upon nature of magic.
(Okay long post over. Shall we get back to arguing?)
No problem: your mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries!
Originally posted by Wintergreen
But for those who want to run 3e DS they face the impossibility of having a D&D balanced system to run an unbalanced, unfair and injust campaign setting where one of the major imbalances, the magic system, has shaped the history and current culture to a huge degree.
If I may take a comment on that one: arcane magic is the only one imbalanced thing in DS. You see rightly, that there was far less argument on psionics, races, other classes, etc. because all of it is balanced and flavourwise good. So it's quite OK to use a D&D 3e system regarding those elements of game. If we only could do something with the wizard guys... That's why I had the idea once that the wizard in DS should be a prestige class.
The idea of defilement vs preservation can provide the flavor needed for the opposition of these classes that are very similar in nature but different in mechanic. Preservers would be the standart phb wizards, while defilers would be the sorcerer with some tweaks:
-Make Int the Key ability for spells.
Defilers like power, gathering energy on the fly without care provide more spells, that can also be metamagiced on the fly to suit their needs.
The easy path to power has its drawbacks, since defilers just can´t learn as much as the preservers who care to study magic, instead of wild casting.
And how to rule that preservers if desparate can defile?
There weren´t such mechanic in the original boxed set. Some ideas work wonderfully in the novels but in the real game world of mechanics are total desaster... I won´t burn my brain on it. :sad:
If I may take a comment on that one: arcane magic is the only one imbalanced thing in DS. You see rightly, that there was far less argument on psionics, races, other classes, etc. because all of it is balanced and flavourwise good. So it's quite OK to use a D&D 3e system regarding those elements of game. If we only could do something with the wizard guys... That's why I had the idea once that the wizard in DS should be a prestige class.
This is not meant as picking on you, Nagypapi, but psionics were even more broken than the defiler level/xp advancement table. Time Dilation, Accelerate, Splice, Kinetic Control, you name it. Other elements were also broken, such as the bard poison table (hello, Poison E at 2nd level IIRC), the original strength table leap from 17 (+1/+1 IIRC) to 19 (+3/+7 IIRC). I could go on, but the memories are just too painful. ;)
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
This is not meant as picking on you, Nagypapi, but psionics were even more broken than the defiler level/xp advancement table. Time Dilation, Accelerate, Splice, Kinetic Control, you name it. Other elements were also broken, such as the bard poison table (hello, Poison E at 2nd level IIRC), the original strength table leap from 17 (+1/+1 IIRC) to 19 (+3/+7 IIRC). I could go on, but the memories are just too painful. ;)
Holy mackeral, you aren't kidding my friend. I can't count the number of times that my players realized that they could simply go in and pick apart any opponent's minds if they were lucky enough. That caused very rough times for me as a DM.
Originally posted by NytCrawlr
Try dealing with a TK with acceleration and time dialtion going at once in 2e...
My favorite munchkin was: A Thri-Kreen Psi / Cleric with acceleration, time dialtion, and split mind.
The horror, the horror....
It was at that moment that I realized that I really had to be on top of everything to make sure that powerful characters weren't unbalancing characters.
I suppose that's why I'm still "debating" what should be done in the rules. I do apologize to anyone I offend. It is for this reason that I want to make sure that what I get is correct.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
This is not meant as picking on you, Nagypapi, but psionics were even more broken than the defiler level/xp advancement table. Time Dilation, Accelerate, Splice, Kinetic Control, you name it. Other elements were also broken, such as the bard poison table (hello, Poison E at 2nd level IIRC), the original strength table leap from 17 (+1/+1 IIRC) to 19 (+3/+7 IIRC). I could go on, but the memories are just too painful. ;)
Jon, I talked about 3e DS... I also have fond memories about such things in 2e, but now psions are more balanced. So what I would liked to say there: all other chapter (races, classes, equipment, etc.) of the 3e conversion you did is quite OK, except this wizardly stuff causes headache all around...
If I may take a comment on that one: arcane magic is the only one imbalanced thing in DS. You see rightly, that there was far less argument on psionics, races, other classes, etc. because all of it is balanced and flavourwise good.
Magic in DS3 is not unbalanced - that's why some people have issues with it. They want it to be unbalanced. ;)
I mean picture the scene...
Rajaat: I have gathered you here to become the Champions of a new order. To attain this aim I shall teach you the forbidden power of defiling. Thus shall you become more powerful than any sorcerer before you.
Dregoth: Yes. Tell us of this defiling.
Rajaat: It is particularly harmful to plant-type monsters.
Borys: I bagsy Slayer of Cabbages.
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
You said:
Magic in DS3 is not unbalanced - that's why some people have issues with it. They want it to be unbalanced. ;)
My Excellence, (just to be on the safe side;) ) did you heard about the #1 rule of sci-fi writers? It goes like 'you can do one major change in the laws of physics to create a good sci-fi'. Same here: one unbalancing thing can be allowed... :D
A bit off: Yoda said that the dark side of the Force is not stronger. It seems he didn't read the rulebook... :D
Originally posted by Jon, Oracle of Athas
Until the day space halflings do invade Athas, I consider it fantasy, not sci-fi.
The day above you mentioned is not far away as I see from the post on this board... :D So we will get back to the this topic quite soon... :D