Before you start screaming let me tell you that:
- I don’t intend to force my views on the conversion team
- I don’t think my views are BETTER than the design team
- I don’t expect anybody to use my conversion
Just like to get some feedback.
Ok, here we go!
First of all I start from the assumption that:
Wizards = as PH. Sorcerers = as PH.
I want to work as little as possible, and I’m no game designer, so I suppose that if I can come out with something that can reproduce the feeling of DS in my game with changing very little about the mechanics of the game I will be able to keep balance
and not breaking anything.
Besides it will be very easy to teach other people the changes and to apply them
to other kind of games.
Second thing: I don’t know much about other conversions. I didn’t even read the last changes of the Athas.org group. So if it seems that I copied something I’m sorry but I didn’t do it on purpose.
GATHERING AT CASTING TIME VS PREPARING TIME
Wizards represent the “learned” spellcaster, the one raised secretly by spellcasting parents, or the Veiled Alliance, or whatever you want. He’s the kind
of magic-user that prepares his spells by studying his spellbooks at night and fuels them mostly with the natural energy gathered while preparing them.
Sorcerers, on the other hand, are the “spontaneous” casters, natural talents, often outcasts secluded in the wilderness after escaping their tribes. They develop their power in an instinctual way, have no spellbooks, and thus gather most of the needed energy at casting time.
See, I tried to have both views regarding when the energy should be gathered. One can choose whether to allow both of them, or just one :D
NOTE: I assume that a part of the energy will be gathered at casting time, so the type of terrain one is when casting ALWAYS has an influence. This is because I like it and think has more flavor. Wizards learn how to gather some energy with much care while preparing spells in order to “ease” the strain on the land at casting time, while Sorcerers don’t know how or just don’t care.
TERRAINS INFLUENCE ON CASTING
The kind of terrain one is when casting limits the mazumum spell level.
Lush terrain: up to 9
Lots of vegetation: up to 7
Moderate: up to 5
Little vegetation: up to 3
Barren: up to 1
To overcome the limitation a caster must resort to feats. I didn’t go in details for each type of terrain, but the list could be refined.
PRESERVING VS. DEFILING
Defiling or preserving is an attitude. Every spellcaster technically is able to do both. It’s a conscious choice whether to care about the land or “letting go”.
Of course “errare humanum est, perseverare diabolicum”, so casters can learn how to improve their casting at the expenses of the terrain.
I chose to implement the difference between defiling and preserving through feats only. I think it’s easier, well integrated in the d20 system and most important of all it is available to every character. So it’s a matter of roleplaying and character
development whether to walk one path or the other, or even try to balance them.
I created two new feat categories: “path dexter” feats and “path sinister” feats, which Include most metamagic feats plus some other ones.
The former are feats usually associated with preservers. They involve advanced control and precision on casting, and the manipulation of areas of effect and ranges.
The latter with defilers. They involve “beefing” up spells and the wild aspect of casting, such as changing the type of energies.
A spell which is modified by a “path dexter” feat cannot also be modified by a “path sinister” feat and vice versa.
Path Dexter feats: Enlarge Spell, Extend Spell, Cooperative
Spell, Delay Spell, Sanctum Spell, Sculpt Spell, Subdual Substitution, Widen Spell
Path Sinister feats: Empower Spell, Maximize Spell, Chain Spell, Energy Admixture,
Energy Substitution, Persistent Spell, Repeat Spell, Split Ray, Twin Spell
Here are also some new feats:
Raze [general][path sinister]
Can cast spells up to one level more than the usual maximum allowed on the terrain.
Improved Raze [general][path sinister]
Can cast spells up to 2 levels more than the usual maximum allowed on the terrain.
After casting a spell modified by this feat the terrain type is decreased by one category.
Requirements: Raze
Superior Raze [general][path sinister]
Can cast spells up to 3 levels more than the usual maximum allowed on the terrain.
After casting a spell modified by this feat the terrain type is decreased by 2 categories.
Requirements: Raze, Improved Raze
Painful Defiling [metamagic][path sinister]
Casting a spell causes pain on all creatures within 30 ft of the caster. These creatures
get a -1 penalty on attack rolls, saves and skill checks for a number of rounds equal
to the spell level. Spell level is increased by 1.
Requirements: arcane caster level 5th, any other path sinister feat
Baleful Defiling [metamagic][path sinister]
Casting a spell gathers energy from all other creatures within 30 ft of the caster.
These creatures lose a number of HP equal to the spell level. Spell level is
increased by 1.
Requirements: arcane caster level 9th, Painful Defiling and any one other path
sinister feat
Careful Gathering [general][path dexter]
Can cast spells up to one level more than the usual maximum allowed on the terrain.
Casting time is doubled to the next time unit (standard actions become full round).
Improved Careful Gathering [general][path dexter]
Can cast spells up to 2 levels more than the usual maximum allowed on the terrain.
Casting time is tripled (standard actions become 2 rounds).
Requirements: Careful Gathering
Superior Careful Gathering [general][path dexter]
Can cast spells up to 2 levels more than the usual maximum allowed on the terrain.
Casting time is tripled (standard actions become 2 rounds).
Requirements: Careful Gathering, Improved Careful Gathering
Hide Visuals [metamagic][path dexter]
The caster learns how to hide the visual effects of energy gathering.
This feat does not allow to hide other components of casting
itself. Spell level is the same of the original spell.
I know this system is simple and not very precise. It's more than a sketch than everything.
The terrain list must be expanded, and probably the requisites of the new feats are not balanced, but as I said I'm not an expert in d20 rule designing, so I'd really appreciate feedback.
Then, I DO know the Raze feats are more appealing than the Careful Gathering ones, but this is just the thing I wanted! Defiling HAS to be more appealing. There is a reason why Athas is how it is.
I like to have my players caught between "end justifies the means or not?" moral problems :P
I think the biggest balance issue would be about terrains. Basically, the power of arcane spellcasters compared to other classes depends heavily on how much lush terrain is in your campaign. I guess if I should raise the level limitations.
And last, I didn't devise a "temptation and redemption" mechanic for Defiling vs. Preserving. It's enough for me to leave it to good roleplaying. I'd like to hear suggestions, though.
Feedbacks:
-terrain levels: as most of the terrain on Athas would be in the 'barren' category, and even with the strongest feats you can't get a 5th or bigger level spell on that it needs re-think. It is a too big hindrace for the wizards IMHO.
-I wouldn't put the standard PHB and Tome&Blood feats into 'only preserver' and 'only defiler' category. Not logical, and doesn't have a morale reason. Why only preserver can do enlarge spell? Why only defiler can substitute energy? This is not in the spirit you wanted with the 'wizard is one class, and only morale decides that she preserver or defiler' setup.
-As I see, your point of view is that 'actions define alignment, not alignment (class) defines acts'. In that case if somebody takes a defiler feat, but not using it, she is not a defiler. So let the player decide what she does and tell only the consecvences.
Originally posted by Nagypapi
Feedbacks:
-terrain levels: as most of the terrain on Athas would be in the 'barren' category, and even with the strongest feats you can't get a 5th or bigger level spell on that it needs re-think. It is a too big hindrace for the wizards IMHO.
Yes you are perfectly right. I was thinking about it too. ths I think is one of the biggest concerns. BTW, I gave a look at athas.ord, and it's been very interesting.
In effects the biggest problem about devising a magic system for DS3e is that
is:
1) balanced among all the classes, so that could be playable aslo, say, in the FR.
2) Keps the flavour of DS
I made a mistake, because my system would be balanced in a standard fantasy world, where most of the land would be usually forested, but not in a desert heavy world as Athas.
That's IMHO the hard point!! Athas spellcasters are NOT SUITED for the world they live in!!! Thus every "terrain system" that is "tuned" to athas deserts will make casters overpowered on Oerth and vice versa...
So, I'm thinking about remiving the terrain limitations altogether. Or using the athas.org new system that seems very sound
Originally posted by Nagypapi
-I wouldn't put the standard PHB and Tome&Blood feats into 'only preserver' and 'only defiler' category. Not logical, and doesn't have a morale reason. Why only preserver can do enlarge spell? Why only defiler can substitute energy? This is not in the spirit you wanted with the 'wizard is one class, and only morale decides that she preserver or defiler' setup.
well, I did this only for some "extra flavour". It seemed nice to me to differentiate a bit a defiler to a preserver, and since feats are the handiest way to do it i separated them in two group.
It's just that the association of defilers with feats that maximize damage, or "overpump" spells, or change energy types one with another seemed right into my mind.
While I thought cool that preservers would learn how to fine control areas and ranges of effects, in their attempt to be so precise in casting so to not damage the land.
As I said it's extra stuff. It doesn't hamper balance if you remove it
Note that I didn't say they were defiler only or preserver only. Just that you can't USE a "defiler like" feat together with a "preserver like" feat.
Originally posted by Nagypapi
-As I see, your point of view is that 'actions define alignment, not alignment (class) defines acts'. In that case if somebody takes a defiler feat, but not using it, she is not a defiler. So let the player decide what she does and tell only the consecvences.
Pardon me but I'm not sure I got you now. Sorry but English is not my native language (so it's also probable that YOU wil not understand me sometimes)
If I understand correctly, yes, if someone takes a defiler feat he's not a defiler. actually, as I said before, there aren't actually "defiler" or "preserver" feat.
Well, except the feats I made myself. When one starts "sucking" life out of the land to overpower his spells, or sucking life from the people around him, well. NOW he's a defiler. :P
I still haven't thought anything nice for the "corruption" feeling. actually I don't think it's absolutely needed, because it's a roleplaying issue.
It should be something easy to follow, and without impact on balance....
Maybe a system similar to Star Wars d20 "Dark Force points" would fit nicely.
Every time you use a REAL defiling feat, you get one point, and you have to atone to get rid of them.
If anybody has suggestions, I'd like to receive more feedback. also on the balancement of my feats with their prerequisite, and anything else.
Thank you again
Originally posted by Nagypapi
The question you should ask from yourself is: are the words 'defiler' and 'preserver' game mechanic definitions (class name or something) or they are only moral/ethical definitions by the people who living on Athas? For me it seems that you would like to go with the later version (I also like it better), which is absolute in line with the 'one wizard class' setup. But then you can't use them as game mechanic designations in the name of feats or whatever. Your whole game system should be done without the mentioning of these two words, as from the game system point of view there are only wizards.
I don't agree with this idea. In fact, I think that this is what most attempts at the Dark Sun 3ed magic system go wrong. The point about Athasian magic has never been that defiling magic is more powerful than preserving magic. All Athasian wizards cast the same spells. The point is that preserving is harder to learn. The reason defilers tend to have the edge over preservers is that they never bothered to learn how to preserve.
So defilers don't preserve because they can't and preservers don't defile because there is no point. They have already made the sacrifice in spending the effort learning how to gather energy conservatively.
This is how it worked in 2ed and it really does demand some sort of separate defiler class. Admittedly it doesn't really provide a temptation to defile but this issue is really tricky in terms of game balance. If you start with the idea that preservers are PHB wizards then once you give them an option, even one with quite serious repercussions, to gain greater power you have automatically made them more powerful than the PHB wizard. On the other hand, balancing the option to defile against some other drawback basically forces preservers to defile to play the character at full potential.
Since most players who play a preserver character are not really interested in walking that tightrope, it makes sense, I think, for the advantages a preserver could gain from defiling to be delegated to feats. This would preserve game balance and allow preservers to function exactly like PHB wizards whilst keeping the option of the 'tempted preserver' open for those players interested in that character concept.
The magic system I built around this line of thinking is detailed on this thread. I'd be interested to know what you think of it, Nagypapi.